2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

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2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Deserves it's own topic I feel.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:19 pm

Its to do with yours, you say IRFU instead of the actual venues

With the exception of the last 3 on the list the venues were decided on been placed finalist

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:20 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:We get told on here that Wales should be embracing the Pro12 not disparaging it. Well it works both ways. If the Pro12 is to be popular again in Wales, then maybe the Pro12 should look at hosting the final there?

Or is that just too unreasonable?

No it's not unreasonable.   Totally agree with this.   If Welsh regions are not bidding for their own reasons, I think hosting the final should be imposed on them.  Get all four clubs to pay for it if necessary and hold it in the Millennium or other suitable stadium.

I don't think you can "impose" £100,000 of expenditure on a business!

Unfortunately, this set o criteria is just another imbalance that favours Union owned teams. 5* Hotels and minimum capacity notwithstanding, it's very unlikely an independent club will want to splash out on the upfront fees that the criteria demands. Whereas a Union has a far more healthier set of assets with which to make an advanced financial commitment. Therefore, the glorious PrO'12 final won't be heading to Welsh shores any time soon unless there is a WRU joint venture with someone in Cardiff.



Eh yes you can impose it on a business.   If they want to host it, then a £100k financial guarantee is required.  It's not upfront.  Split between four clubs, and the municipal partner, this is not a great amount of money for the potential return.  In fact, I'd say it would be a good way to lessen any potential risk involved.   The guarantees are provided by the bidding entities i.e. Club and municipal body.  Thus Ulster and Belfast City Council or Glasgow and Glasgow authority.  The unions involved have nothing to do with it.  

That's not "imposing the final on Welsh teams" like you said. That's giving them a choice whether to host it. Although at the moment they don't have a choice as they don't meet the criteria.

Although we have been over this countless times, it's not true.

Write to the Regions and ask them why they haven't entered a bid. I would bet it's nothing to do with lack of 5* star hotels, and everything to do with being risk averse.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Write to the Regions and ask them why they haven't entered a bid. I would bet it's nothing to do with lack of 5* star hotels, and everything to do with being risk averse.

So Parc y Scarlets, Cardiff Arms Park and Rodney Parade can host the final?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Kingshu on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:21 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:The hotel thing can not be serious. If Cardiff can host a 6N match (and it does successfully), it can host a Pro12 final.


Oh it's deadly serious. Chelsea football club visit Swansea in 2 weeks time. But the same ground and venue is not good enough for the likes of Connacht in the final of the Pro12.


It's a complete farce. Since the playoffs have been brought in, the final has been outside Ireland once. People wonder why some call it the Pro'12. Rolling Eyes

That's not true.

What year were the play offs brought in?

The internet is your friend.  I'm sure you can check this out for yourself.  


2009/10  The Pro12 site seems to indicate. Final venues:

2009/10 - IRFU
2010/11 - IRFU
2011/12 - IRFU
2012/13 - IRFU
2013/14 - IRFU
2014/15 - IRFU
2015/16 - SRU
2016/17 - IRFU

Have I missed a year?

Maybe your forgetting that from 09/10-13/14, 5 of the 8 you posted the IRFU won the right to host it by having a team top the league, something the WRU could have done if a Welsh team had topped it.

Are you really trying to blame the IRFU for Welsh teams not topping the league? If they were good enough they would have won the right to host it.

So its gone from 7 in 8 years to 2 out of 3.
We don't know who submitted bids, but as someone said early there weren't that many options, and Dublin is the best of the ones that could.

Sometimes I think theres a bit to much knocking the Pro 12 for the sake of it goes on here, from people that will never be happy with it.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:21 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:We get told on here that Wales should be embracing the Pro12 not disparaging it. Well it works both ways. If the Pro12 is to be popular again in Wales, then maybe the Pro12 should look at hosting the final there?

Or is that just too unreasonable?

No it's not unreasonable.   Totally agree with this.   If Welsh regions are not bidding for their own reasons, I think hosting the final should be imposed on them.  Get all four clubs to pay for it if necessary and hold it in the Millennium or other suitable stadium.

I don't think you can "impose" £100,000 of expenditure on a business!

Unfortunately, this set o criteria is just another imbalance that favours Union owned teams. 5* Hotels and minimum capacity notwithstanding, it's very unlikely an independent club will want to splash out on the upfront fees that the criteria demands. Whereas a Union has a far more healthier set of assets with which to make an advanced financial commitment. Therefore, the glorious PrO'12 final won't be heading to Welsh shores any time soon unless there is a WRU joint venture with someone in Cardiff.



Eh yes you can impose it on a business.   If they want to host it, then a £100k financial guarantee is required.  It's not upfront.  Split between four clubs, and the municipal partner, this is not a great amount of money for the potential return.  In fact, I'd say it would be a good way to lessen any potential risk involved.   The guarantees are provided by the bidding entities i.e. Club and municipal body.  Thus Ulster and Belfast City Council or Glasgow and Glasgow authority.  The unions involved have nothing to do with it.  

That's not "imposing the final on Welsh teams" like you said. That's giving them a choice whether to host it. Although at the moment they don't have a choice as they don't meet the criteria.

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:23 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:The hotel thing can not be serious. If Cardiff can host a 6N match (and it does successfully), it can host a Pro12 final.


Oh it's deadly serious. Chelsea football club visit Swansea in 2 weeks time. But the same ground and venue is not good enough for the likes of Connacht in the final of the Pro12.


It's a complete farce. Since the playoffs have been brought in, the final has been outside Ireland once. People wonder why some call it the Pro'12. Rolling Eyes

That's not true.

What year were the play offs brought in?

The internet is your friend.  I'm sure you can check this out for yourself.  


2009/10  The Pro12 site seems to indicate. Final venues:

2009/10 - IRFU
2010/11 - IRFU
2011/12 - IRFU
2012/13 - IRFU
2013/14 - IRFU
2014/15 - IRFU
2015/16 - SRU
2016/17 - IRFU

Have I missed a year?

Unions don't host the finals, clubs and cities do. You omitted the locations of where the finals were held to date:

RDS, Dublin, Ireland
Thomond Park, Limerick, Ireland
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast, UK
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh, UK



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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:23 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Write to the Regions and ask them why they haven't entered a bid. I would bet it's nothing to do with lack of 5* star hotels, and everything to do with being risk averse.

So Parc y Scarlets, Cardiff Arms Park and Rodney Parade can host the final?

Any of the Regions could host a final in either Cardiff or the MS, subject to availability.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:24 pm

marty2086 wrote:

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

According to the BBC, they do not meet the criteria. So what would be the point in bidding for something you are not eligible for?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:25 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Write to the Regions and ask them why they haven't entered a bid. I would bet it's nothing to do with lack of 5* star hotels, and everything to do with being risk averse.

So Parc y Scarlets, Cardiff Arms Park and Rodney Parade can host the final?

Any of the Regions could host a final in either Cardiff or the MS, subject to availability.

So Cardiff is the only place the final can be held in Wales. Gotcha. I believe I said that about 25 posts ago.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Thomond Park, Limerick, Ireland
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast, UK


You're really going down that route? Really? That's utterly pathetic even for you.

Your national rugby team isn't called Ireland and the UK.

Just another example of the gerrymandering. When the coat fits etc. Pathetic.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:28 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

According to the BBC, they do not meet the criteria. So what would be the point in bidding for something you are not eligible for?

They would be eligible to host in CAP or MS. Ospreys stated that the reason they didn't enter a bid ,in the first year, was because they didn't want to take the financial risk, and preferred to wait to see how successful the final was in Ulster.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:29 pm

You have the criteria Dai?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:30 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

According to the BBC, they do not meet the criteria. So what would be the point in bidding for something you are not eligible for?

And according to WalesOnline, Ospreys were eligible to host it 2 seasons ago and chose not to bid

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-final-held-kingspan-8524573

As confirmed here

http://www.ospreyssupportersclub.co.uk/statement-from-the-osc-on-the-pro12-decision-to-choose-belfast-to-host-the-final/

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You have the criteria Dai?

No

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:32 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

According to the BBC, they do not meet the criteria. So what would be the point in bidding for something you are not eligible for?

And according to WalesOnline, Ospreys were eligible to host it 2 seasons ago and chose not to bid

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-final-held-kingspan-8524573

As confirmed here

http://www.ospreyssupportersclub.co.uk/statement-from-the-osc-on-the-pro12-decision-to-choose-belfast-to-host-the-final/

Your second link mentions the 2 5 star hotel criteria. Swansea hasn't got that, so I'd guess they are not infact eligible. Meaning every Welsh team is ineligible to hold the final.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:32 pm

So how do you know where can and can't hold it then?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So how do you know where can and can't hold it then?

I'm going by the Official Ospreys Supporters club statement and the BBC report.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:35 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

According to the BBC, they do not meet the criteria. So what would be the point in bidding for something you are not eligible for?

And according to WalesOnline, Ospreys were eligible to host it 2 seasons ago and chose not to bid

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-final-held-kingspan-8524573

As confirmed here

http://www.ospreyssupportersclub.co.uk/statement-from-the-osc-on-the-pro12-decision-to-choose-belfast-to-host-the-final/

Your second link mentions the 2 5 star hotel criteria. Swansea hasn't got that, so I'd guess they are not infact eligible. Meaning every Welsh team is ineligible to hold the final.

Neither does Belfast but there outside of Belfast

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:36 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So how do you know where can and can't hold it then?

I'm going by the Official Ospreys Supporters club statement and the BBC report.

So nothing official then.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So how do you know where can and can't hold it then?

I'm going by the Official Ospreys Supporters club statement and the BBC report.

So nothing official then.

laughing Always the same. When it's not going your way, you want photocopies of official documents.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

They do have a choice, they could still bid but it seems they choose not to

As Munchkin says they are risk averse they are also petulant as they disagreed with the initial decision to go with this format

According to the BBC, they do not meet the criteria. So what would be the point in bidding for something you are not eligible for?

And according to WalesOnline, Ospreys were eligible to host it 2 seasons ago and chose not to bid

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-final-held-kingspan-8524573

As confirmed here

http://www.ospreyssupportersclub.co.uk/statement-from-the-osc-on-the-pro12-decision-to-choose-belfast-to-host-the-final/

Your second link mentions the 2 5 star hotel criteria. Swansea hasn't got that, so I'd guess they are not infact eligible. Meaning every Welsh team is ineligible to hold the final.

Neither does Belfast but there outside of Belfast

How far outside are we talking?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:39 pm

What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:39 pm

Eh? Not really come across you before so no idea where thats from? But yes there is nothing official just some random hear say.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? Not really come across you before so no idea where thats from? But yes there is nothing official just some random hear say.

I expect in that case, that no media links will be used on this site in future to backup any point being made.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Breadvan on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:43 pm

Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels? I remember once seeing the Ulster squad practising line outs in a hotel car park (2005 I think) Those were the days...

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:44 pm

Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels?

To narrow down the potential places the final can be hosted.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:45 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Thomond Park, Limerick, Ireland
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast, UK


You're really going down that route? Really? That's utterly pathetic even for you.

Your national rugby team isn't called Ireland and the UK.

Just another example of the gerrymandering. When the coat fits etc. Pathetic.

On the contrary, I was replying to another poster, not you. So perhaps you shouldn't have stepped in.

That poster is of the view that it is Ireland and the UK governments who are paying for the bid for RWC 2023. Equally, Belfast City Council is a UK municipal authority which bid for the hosting along with Ulster Rugby.

And you ignored the obvious deficiencies in his post about the reasons for choice of location for the first five years just so you could have another little petty wrangle.

If you were honest, you would argue your point that since the decision by the four unions to have the final hosted by open tender, that only Belfast, Glasgow and Dublin have been selected.

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.


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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:45 pm

Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels? I remember once seeing the Ulster squad practising line outs in a hotel car park (2005 I think) Those were the days...

For the teams to stay in, 5* hotel offers them facilities to prepare for the game

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:47 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels?

To narrow down the potential places the final can be hosted.

Yeah, forget offering the teams the best facilities just stick them in a b&b and have done with it screw having training areas, gyms, decent food and the other things professionals look for to prepare properly for a match


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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:47 pm

Well I don't consider 'some fans said' a particularly solid bit of evidence, do you? Normally this sort of stuff is put on the leagues website etc?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:48 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.  


Can you show me evidence of these complaints?

Thanks

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Breadvan on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:49 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels?

To narrow down the potential places the final can be hosted.

Rather daft tbh. If a city has a good infrastructure to cope with sporting events then it should be considered. 5* hotels or not.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:49 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.  


Can you show me evidence of these complaints?

Thanks

You obviously read it on the OSC link I posted earlier

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well I don't consider 'some fans said' a particularly solid bit of evidence, do you? Normally this sort of stuff is put on the leagues website etc?

"some fans" ? I'm just going by what I have read on the BBC Website and in the Irish Times. They would have better sources than "some fans" guaranteed.

At the end of the day, it would be lovely to see the Pro12 final criteria. But as usual with the Pro12, it is a completely non transparent murky process with a pro Irish outcome.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:50 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.  


Can you show me evidence of these complaints?

Thanks

You obviously read it on the OSC link I posted earlier

Read what? 4 official complaints from the Welsh regions? No I didn't read anything of the sort.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:51 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well I don't consider 'some fans said' a particularly solid bit of evidence, do you? Normally this sort of stuff is put on the leagues website etc?

"some fans" ? I'm just going by what I have read on the BBC Website and in the Irish Times. They would have better sources than "some fans" guaranteed.

At the end of the day, it would be lovely to see the Pro12 final criteria. But as usual with the Pro12, it is a completely non transparent murky process with a pro Irish outcome.

Just like the Aviva then.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:52 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.  


Can you show me evidence of these complaints?

Thanks

You obviously read it on the OSC link I posted earlier

Read what? 4 official complaints from the Welsh regions? No I didn't read anything of the sort.

Oh its official complaints now?

Funny how it needs to be official when it contradicts you but a lesser burden when it supports you

Can we see the official tender criteria then or should we just end this whole thing now?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.  


Can you show me evidence of these complaints?

Thanks

You obviously read it on the OSC link I posted earlier

Read what? 4 official complaints from the Welsh regions? No I didn't read anything of the sort.

Oh its official complaints now?

Funny how it needs to be official when it contradicts you but a lesser burden when it supports you

Doesn't have to be official. Just show me anywhere where "the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining"

Thanks

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:54 pm

Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels? I remember once seeing the Ulster squad practising line outs in a hotel car park (2005 I think) Those were the days...

Five star standard hotels for the two teams. Easy to achieve for any of the clubs who want to bid along with their municipal partner. Many four star hotels claim five star service these days anyway. The criteria and rating of hotels has been vague for quite some time. A complete red herring.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Breadvan on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:00 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels?

To narrow down the potential places the final can be hosted.

Yeah, forget offering the teams the best facilities just stick them in a b&b and have done with it screw having training areas, gyms, decent food and the other things professionals look for to prepare properly for a match


I'm not advocating teams should stay in the Villa bella or anything. Swansea, for example, has no 5* but has had premier league teams down here for the last 5 years, Women's international football, the All blacks and Canada during the last rwc, and first class cricket teams. BTW..not complaining the final hasn't been here at all. If the Liberty didn't bid the fair enough.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:01 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

It is somewhat ironic that when the PRO12 becomes more commercial and business-like about the promotion and hosting of the PRO12 final, that the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining about hotels, financial guarantees, and stadium capacity.  


Can you show me evidence of these complaints?

Thanks

You obviously read it on the OSC link I posted earlier

Read what? 4 official complaints from the Welsh regions? No I didn't read anything of the sort.

Oh its official complaints now?

Funny how it needs to be official when it contradicts you but a lesser burden when it supports you

Doesn't have to be official. Just show me anywhere where "the four supposed private sector commercial club entities are hiding behind the door complaining"

Thanks

Do you want figurative or literal hiding? Because meanings seem to be fluid with you

And while they weren't hiding, you have already seen proof that one of the 4 was complaining

If this forum is anything to go by, its a given that the Welsh will complain surely thats solid proof?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:04 pm

Breadvan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels?

To narrow down the potential places the final can be hosted.

Yeah, forget offering the teams the best facilities just stick them in a b&b and have done with it screw having training areas, gyms, decent food and the other things professionals look for to prepare properly for a match


I'm not advocating teams should stay in the Villa bella or anything. Swansea, for example, has no 5* but has had premier league teams down here for the last 5 years, Women's international football, the All blacks and Canada during the last rwc, and first class cricket teams. BTW..not complaining the final hasn't been here at all. If the Liberty didn't bid the fair enough.

A fair observation, Breadvan.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:04 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So how do you know where can and can't hold it then?

I'm going by the Official Ospreys Supporters club statement and the BBC report.



Ospreys Supporters Club update on PRO12 final bid:

Update on discussions between the OSC and Pro 12 about the decision to award Belfast the 2014/15 Final
Posted by grant@ospreyssupportersclub.com on 4th February 2015
Posted in: INFO.
After our initial discussion with Tom at Pro 12, we submitted a further 23 questions for review and response.

The response to our questions reads as follows:



2015 GUINNESS PRO12 FINAL AT KINGSPAN STADIUM, BELFAST

Belfast will be the host city for the 2015 Guinness PRO12 Final on Saturday May 30th 2015 at 6.30pm.

The Final will be played at Kingspan Stadium, the home of Ulster Rugby.

Tickets will go on public sale on Tuesday 3rd February through Ticketmaster and Ulster Rugby.

It is the first time that the Guinness PRO12 has staged a ‘destination final’ providing an opportunity to celebrate the vibrant rugby on show week in week out in the Guinness PRO12.

The Guinness PRO12 Final will be a festival of rugby throughout the whole city and will be supported by title sponsor Guinness.

The Guinness PRO12 Final will be broadcast live on TV by Sky Sports and other broadcast partners to be confirmed once finalists are known e.g. if Ospreys v Glasgow Warriors then on BBC Wales & BBC Alba.

Belfast is an inspiring host city and the new Kingspan Stadium is a state-of-the-art venue for the Guinness PRO12 Final.

In May 2014 the PRO12 Board, representing all 12 Clubs and 4 Unions, requisitioned a strategic review on the ongoing development of the tournament, including the staging of a Destination Final. This ongoing process where all stakeholders, the 12 Clubs and 4 Unions, participated and were continually consulted concluded with a report presented in December.

The Board then considered the report and, given the development of the tournament, all agreed that the time is right this season for a showcase Destination Final and invited offers from all 12 clubs & their cities/regions to host the Final.

The bid was open to all stakeholders and potential partners (e.g. stadium owners) and there was no requirement that a PRO12 club venue be used, given size & logistical items. Tenders involved stadium size, logistical & cost guarantees and the opportunity to be imaginative.

PRO12 Rugby fully recognises that it is a mid-season decision and as such will deny the right for the highest placed team after the Play Offs to propose a suitable home venue. This was fully discussed as part of the process and that it was still the view of our stakeholders that moving to a destination venue was the right thing to do for this season.

One of a number of factors considered was that the changes to the structure of European competitions, with finals on May 1 & 2, meant that the Guinness PRO12 Final would otherwise be played one week after our Play Offs which would make it extremely difficult and more expensive for fans to travel with just a week’s notice. There are now 4 months to go to the Guinness PRO12 Final.

Kingspan Stadium has special access for disabled fans on all four sides of the ground and all disabled requests will be through Ulster Rugby, not Ticketmaster. Similarly group bookings for schools & clubs will also go through tickets@ulsterrugby.com

Any excess income will be split between PRO12 Rugby and the two finalists as before. Our last 5 sell out Finals were truly memorable rugby spectacles and, building on this success, we look forward to welcoming fans to Belfast for what will be a fantastic rugby weekend.

The top 2 teams in the league section of the PRO12 will still host the Play Offs. That’s team 1 v team 4 and team 2 v team 3 as before. The selection of where the PRO12 Final is to be played has always been a matter for the PRO12 to decide. Clubs could ‘propose’ their own venue but did not have an automatic right to host the Final, as in 2013 when Ulster played in the RDS as Kingspan Stadium was under construction.

An outstanding tender from ‘Team Belfast’ bid won unanimously and the result was recently announced on Monday 26th January. Belfast excelled itself as the host city for our PRO12 season launch in 2013 and their plans for the City in the lead up to and around the Final are very exciting.

PRO12 Rugby is delighted to be able to work with our partners to promote the variety of fantastic international destinations that the Guinness PRO12 has to offer and where fans from all 4 of our countries will enjoy a memorable Final and a great weekend in Belfast.

The aim of moving the Final to a National Stadium in the future is under active consideration.

More ticketing information will be announced early next week. Ulster season ticket holders will have an opportunity to buy a limited number of tickets but a substantial number will be reserved for the two finalists.

S4C in Wales broadcast Sunday games and so would like more Welsh teams to feature. All 12 clubs must play on a Sunday if requested by broadcasters and do so.

The PRO12 Board represents all 12 clubs & 4 Unions & they contract with the broadcasters.

Round 22 on Saturday May 16 is confirmed but not the 6 simultaneous kick off times. The broadcasters will look at the teams in contention for Play Offs/Europe and then decide when Round 21 games are played on the weekend of May 8/9/10.

Further news on the 2015 Guinness PRO12 Final will be continually updated on www.pro12rugby.com and also on @PRO12rugby, the PRO12 Twitter page, and the Pro12 Rugby page on Facebook.

Upon receipt of this response we reviewed all of our questions and it could clearly be seen that many questions had not been answered. The questions we felt had not be answered we resubmitted and have since been responded to as follows:

Questions and Answers:

Who made the final decision? Was this decided by representatives of the 12 teams or did the unions have the final say.

The Board, representing the 12 clubs, made a consensus unanimous decision

Could a union tender for the final, or was this only open to the 12 teams represented in the Pro 12?

The 12 PRO12 teams and their cities/councils were invited to bid. The 12 teams could have bid with their Unions or other potential partners/stakeholders (e.g. stadium owners)

By having an 18,000 capacity, are you allowing all teams to tender or penalising those who do not meet the capacity limits.

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

How is this benefiting to Supporters? What if this was a Glasgow v Ospreys final with no Irish involvement. Would you still expect a sell out and if not, who is financially penalised?

The Board in deciding the Final venue gave all clubs and supporters 4 months’ notice. A sell out is expected.

You have advised that a limited number of tickets are going on pre-sale to Ulster supporters prior to the public sale. What is that limited number? What safeguards do you have in place for those supporters wishing not to attend? Would Pro12 have a returns policy in place for these tickets, enabling purchased tickets to be sold back at face value? Or do you expect those no longer attending to sell on at face value and not make a profit (a naive view if this is the one being taken)

As with other similar events, there will be people buying in anticipation that their teams will be involved. There will be a way that bought tickets can be resold legitimately.

What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like

Did the organisations placing a tender have to commit to a financial agreement to hold this. and if so, what was the value?

There was no minimum guarantee other than the event would have to pay for itself, any profits would then be shared between the PRO12 and the two finalists.
We have since learnt the amount to be £109,050.00


How was the winner of the tender decided?

By the PRO12 Board after a recommendation from our PRO12 Commercial Sub-Committee, both of whom have representatives present from our clubs and PRO Rugby Wales.

Why are the tickets going on public sale so early? How can this be of the benefit to the supporters? You now expect thousands of supporters to commit to purchasing tickets, plus pay for flights and hotels on the off chance that they make the final! How is that helping supporters exactly?

Under the previous system supporters would have been required to book flights, ferries and accommodation with less than a week’s notice. Availability and pricing factors were considered.

Why is this not then being held in a neutral venue. Ulster is not neutral especially if they make the final as a non-top seeded team.

All finals have been held in neutral stadiums.

Why are only 4,000 out of 18,000 tickets being kept for allocation to the finalists? That is just 11% of available tickets to each finalists supporters base. This is not enough to cover a 1/3 of most supporters in the top 4 at present.

A minimum of 2,000 per finalist is being kept, a ticket transfer system will apply and experience shows that – with just a week’s notice – that this will be sufficient.

What were the results of the vote? Did anyone abstain from the vote? What were the overwhelming figures for Ulster to win?

No one abstained – the consensus from all our stakeholders on the Board was that now was the time to make the transition to a destination final, especially given the loss of a week in the turnaround between Play Offs & Final.

Please explain rule 3.7 and why you’ve decided to bypass it this season?

Rule 3.7 has not been bypassed. The selection of where the Final is played has always been a matter for the PRO12 to decide. Under 3.7 clubs had the right to ‘propose’ their own venue, they did not have an automatic right to host the Final. This is covered further down that page.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:11 pm

Breadvan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Breadvan wrote:Why the requirement for two 5*star hotels?

To narrow down the potential places the final can be hosted.

Yeah, forget offering the teams the best facilities just stick them in a b&b and have done with it screw having training areas, gyms, decent food and the other things professionals look for to prepare properly for a match


I'm not advocating teams should stay in the Villa bella or anything. Swansea, for example, has no 5* but has had premier league teams down here for the last 5 years, Women's international football, the All blacks and Canada during the last rwc, and first class cricket teams. BTW..not complaining the final hasn't been here at all. If the Liberty didn't bid the fair enough.

As Pot Hale says it won't be strictly 5*, it'll be a base that can offer them the proper facilities

For example Belfast has the Merchant hotel but you won't find many teams staying in it as its right in the city centre surrounded by bars etc and lacks some facilities so not the best setup

I think Glasgow and Munster stayed in the Culloden in Holywood and the Hilton Templepatrick which is only 4* but both are away from the City Centre and people and offer more facilities

During a WC teams have bases they work from so the need for a top hotel near the ground isn't as important, many PL teams don't require the training facilities prior to a game either

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:12 pm

Interesting, thanks Munchkin. The Pro12 site, used to state that the venue required 18,000 capacity.


"The new capacity will surpass the threshold required to host a RaboDirect PRO12 Final or a Heineken Cup quarter final."
SOURCE:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2012/1114/345640-ulster-secure-funds-for-ravenhill-development

So what we know is that Ulster had to nominate the final to be held in the RDS as Ravenhill didn't meet capacity. Then as soon as they redeveloped the Kingspan to 18,000 they could host the final there, then as sooin as the final was announced as the Kingspan - the Pro12 abolished the 18,000 capacity criteria. How convenient.


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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:14 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:Interesting, thanks Munchkin. The Pro12 site, used to state that the venue required 18,000 capacity.


"The new capacity will surpass the threshold required to host a RaboDirect PRO12 Final or a Heineken Cup quarter final."
SOURCE:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2012/1114/345640-ulster-secure-funds-for-ravenhill-development

So what we know is that Ulster had to nominate the final to be held in the RDS as Ravenhill didn't meet capacity. Then as soon as they redeveloped the Kingspan to 18,000 they could host the final there, then as sooin as the final was announced as the Kingspan - the Pro12 abolished the 18,000 capacity criteria. How convenient.


Where did they abolish the criteria?

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:15 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Where did they abolish the criteria?

That question makes no sense.

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:17 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Where did they abolish the criteria?

That question makes no sense.

Really?

Because you claim they abolished the 18k criteria, now you're saying a question asking for clarification on it doesnt make sense? picard

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Where did they abolish the criteria?

That question makes no sense.

Really?

Because you claim they abolished the 18k criteria, now you're saying a question asking for clarification on it doesnt make sense? picard

Did you not read Munchkin's post?

"Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity"

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Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:21 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:Interesting, thanks Munchkin. The Pro12 site, used to state that the venue required 18,000 capacity.


"The new capacity will surpass the threshold required to host a RaboDirect PRO12 Final or a Heineken Cup quarter final."
SOURCE:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2012/1114/345640-ulster-secure-funds-for-ravenhill-development

So what we know is that Ulster had to nominate the final to be held in the RDS as Ravenhill didn't meet capacity. Then as soon as they redeveloped the Kingspan to 18,000 they could host the final there, then as sooin as the final was announced as the Kingspan - the Pro12 abolished the 18,000 capacity criteria. How convenient.


It still is an 18k capacity. Ulster lost out on a previous final because we failed to meet that requirement. However, any side can choose a venue that meets with that requirement.

As the PRO12 rep' stated; PRO12 wants all finals to be held in national stadia, as we have seen with Murryfield and Aviva.


Last edited by Munchkin on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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