England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

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England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 8:03 am

JDizzle wrote:Hales and Morgan will miss the tour. Whether Hales would have toured with the Test side anyway is moot now.

Buttler to captain the ODI side. Squads announced Friday. Hameed and Duckett/Bairstow/Billings to benefit you'd think.

For Hales it doe make a tricky choice easier for the selectors now, someone else will have to be given a chance.
If they succeed we get back to the issue of not touring being personal choice and in itself not directly affecting any decisions on future places or being seen as a lack of commitment...but potentially affecting future places by giving another player the opportunity to take their place.
For limited overs hes obviously safe long term, Hales is one of the best in the world and pretty central to Englands plan. It will be good to see a couple of the fringe bats given a chance, Id assume Bairstow will play in the limited overs games. Billings Id forgotten all about ...with Buttler? Bairstow and the emergence of Foakes as the buzz player its easy to forget he scored a huge century and a 50 in the Lions summer series. Id stick Ansari in there as well to keep the Surrey lot happy, but he does seem to have been supplanted as the internets favourite part time spinner who the county game makes look good now.
Longer term its unlikely that Morgan will lose his place even if one of the players coming in does really well. As captain hes again pretty central to the current England team, and his returns with the bat have been OK if not as good as the other specialists.
All in post Bangladesh its really only the openers test batting spot thats likely affected by these decisions, and that may very well have been a change that was made anyway.


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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 9:07 am

Agree it will not affect Hales limited over place, but could well have a big impact on the test opener spot. Particularly as his replacement will have a pretty good chance of making an immediate good impression with runs.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 9:11 am

I think Hales's spot in the test side was gone anyways (Bayliss has been openly talking about a replacement since the summer ended)

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 10:03 am

I have a sneaky feeling that if he was in the running for the test berth, Hales mayhave thought harder about going. As it is it becomes a much easier discussion if they have told him he was being replaced.

His replacement(s) will be interesting. As he probably comes straight back into the ODI squad for they may move Ali back to opening in the two short games - a position he has score two hundreds in.

For the longer stuff, well they may take two openers I guess. The South African born and raised (but England qualified) Keaton Jennings is the leading run scorer in D1 - with 6 hundred and an average of over 60 he has had a good season. BUT do we want a guy whose career average is below 35?

There are then 6 other opening batsmen in D1 with over 1000 runs this season. In descending order:

Alex Lees - after a poor start to the season has come on strong recently. Could do well in sub-continent, but his technique is looser than it once was and decent seam bowling could be his undoing.

Haseeb Hameed - has impressed the batting coaches when with U19s. After his two centuries in the roses match was the talk of the press but in the month since has had just 3 innings totalling just under 100 runs.

Nick Gubbins - still a young player, but a later developer than some. Shoed real grit in the first innings last week while Jake Ball took a hat-trick at the other end.

Rory Burns - played one more match that the others (and scored less centuries) but has done well in his first (?) season in D1, especially considering the issues Surrey have had in finding him a reliable partner. Unlike all but Hameed in the names above averages over 40 in FC cricket.

Marcus Trescothick - class batsman who can still dominate county bowling. So glad he is enjoying cricket after the illnesses he suffered on tour with England. That he was trusted by Fletcher despite what was then a patchy FC record shows that it is possible o step up. That no-one has in the years since Strauss retired shows how hard it can be.

Adam Lyth - A good player of average bowlers. Had his go - not good enough.




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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 10:05 am

Well it surely depends on how the replacement performs ? If Hameed , say , comes in and fails to get a score in Bangladesh then they're just as likely to say OK that didn't work , back as we were for India...

Last time they went to Bangladesh Strauss took the tour off and Carberry ( and then Trott ) partnered Cook but the former still had to wait for a couple more failed experiments after Strauss finally retired before he got another try : Bangladesh tours may not be any great guide to future selection.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 11:42 am

Alfie,

The selectors had said that as there are no warm up games in India, they are selecting a single squad for both series. Unless they change their mind whoever opens in India will have toured Bangladesh.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 1:55 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I have a sneaky feeling that if he was in the running for the test berth, Hales mayhave thought harder about going. As it is it becomes a much easier discussion if they have told him he was being replaced.

His replacement(s) will be interesting. As he probably comes straight back into the ODI squad for they may move Ali back to opening in the two short games - a position he has score two hundreds in.

For the longer stuff, well they may take two openers I guess. The South African born and raised (but England qualified) Keaton Jennings is the leading run scorer in D1 - with 6 hundred and an average of over 60 he has had a good season. BUT do we want a guy whose career average is below 35?

There are then 6 other opening batsmen in D1 with over 1000 runs this season. In descending order:

Alex Lees - after a poor start to the season has come on strong recently. Could do well in sub-continent, but his technique is looser than it once was and decent seam bowling could be his undoing.

Haseeb Hameed - has impressed the batting coaches when with U19s. After his two centuries in the roses match was the talk of the press but in the month since has had just 3 innings totalling just under 100 runs.

Nick Gubbins - still a young player, but a later developer than some. Shoed real grit in the first innings last week while Jake Ball took a hat-trick at the other end.

Rory Burns - played one more match that the others (and scored less centuries) but has done well in his first (?) season in D1, especially considering the issues Surrey have had in finding him a reliable partner. Unlike all but Hameed in the names above averages over 40 in FC cricket.


Marcus Trescothick - class batsman who can still dominate county bowling. So glad he is enjoying cricket after the illnesses he suffered on tour with England. That he was trusted by Fletcher despite what was then a patchy FC record shows that it is possible o step up. That no-one has in the years since Strauss retired shows how hard it can be.

Adam Lyth - A good player of average bowlers. Had his go - not good enough.


I didn't realise that Jennings had become England qualified. Whilst his career average is ordinary at best, it's more important as to how good he is now and how good he's going to be in the future. Probably merits more consideration than he's had (at least from the likes of us).

Burns tends to go under the radar. This is actually his third season as a Division One opener. He played 9 matches when Surrey were in the top flight in 2012 and the entirety of the following season when we were relegated. Including the two years in Division Two between 2013 and 2014, he's got better each season. Not scintillating but generally solid and reliable. Whilst I like that, he can frustrate by not going on enough when well set. A decent to very decent county opener but probably still lacking as regards the next level.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by wisden on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 4:25 pm

Hameed will go, which i think is wrong, he's only had one good season , i would have stuck with Hales, but as it's clear he won't go, then Hammed is probably the best bet, which reflects more on the state of county cricket, then anything else..

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 6:37 pm

Meanwhile, a perfectly timed - as regards any meeting of England selectors this week - 200 not out today from Keaton Jennings at Durham against Surrey. The next highest scorer managed 38.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 6:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Alfie,

The selectors had said that as there are no warm up games in India, they are selecting a single squad for both series. Unless they change their mind whoever opens in India will have toured Bangladesh.

Ah...I must have missed that. Makes sense I guess ; though it seems an odd business to go into a Test series anywhere without a warm up game. Not sure I'd take it as gospel though ; if a couple more players declined to tour Bangladesh I suspect they'd reserve the right to adjust the squad for India.
Does this cover ODIs too ? So no Morgan or Hales for those matches ...or is that a separate issue (I am a bit hazy on the dates but I'm assuming the Tests in India come first ?)

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 7:06 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Meanwhile, a perfectly timed - as regards any meeting of England selectors this week - 200 not out today from Keaton Jennings at Durham against Surrey. The next highest scorer managed 38.

Remarkably well timed indeed ; and he seems to have hit a run of form lately . Perhaps not so well timed for you Surrey chaps ...though reading your club thread I gather most of you are resigned to losing at Durham and comfortable enough you are pretty well safe from the drop anyway. (At the same time I see one of your opponents today will be at The Oval next season : will you fit Borthwick in to your set up ? I get the feeling he wants to bowl more )

As to the England job I think I'd sooner see Jennings as the - relatively experienced- man in form , tried before young Hameed on tour - though they may well take an extra opener I suppose...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 7:18 pm

Hi Alfie - Surrey are even mathematically safe now so we can view anything Jennings does in this match without too much alarm and with some admiration. He must be a serious contender now for the England plane.

Surrey have always been keen to use slow bowlers in the white ball game so Borthwick should certainly feature there although I'm less sure about him bowling in the CC.

Btw, we've already signed 'Rocky' Stoneman who is also playing for Durham in this game.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 7:40 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie - Surrey are even mathematically safe now so we can view anything Jennings does in this match without too much alarm and with some admiration. He must be a serious contender now for the England plane.

Surrey have always been keen to use slow bowlers in the white ball game so Borthwick should certainly feature there although I'm less sure about him bowling in the CC.

Btw, we've already signed 'Rocky' Stoneman who is also playing for Durham in this game.

Yes I've just been reading the latest on your Surrey threads : quite a bit of change afoot , it seems . Does look a if you are going to have a fair bit of spin bowling ; though perhaps the fact that both Ansari and Borthwick can earn their keep as batsmen means this might not be too much of a problem.
Suppose I should be writing this on the Surrey thread too : but I sort of started on here Smile

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 7:56 pm

I wouldn't worry about it, Alfie - both Ansari and Borthwick are/could be England contenders.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 8:14 pm

The touring party will be quite interesting , in truth : announced this week , no ?

Cook Root Bairstow Stokes Woakes Broad Anderson all set in stone ; and Moeen pretty much nailed on too though I know he has his detractors. That's half a party so plenty of scope for the rest : Wood , Ballance (? Can he play spin better than he showed against Yasir ?) , presumably Rashid... A few spots left still...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:40 am

Tour parties to be announced on Friday. They may well delay in naming the the ODI party to India.

Fixtures:

ODI Series Bangladesh

Friday 7th October (Dhaka)
Sunday 9th October (Dhaka)
Wednesday 12th October (Chittagong)


Test Series

Friday 14th October - 2 Day warm up match (Chittagong)
Sunday 16th October - 2 Day warm up match (Chittagong)
Thursday 20th October - 1st Test (Chittagong)
Friday 28th October - 2nd Test (Dhaka)



India - Tests

Wednesday 9th November 2016 (Rajkot)
Thursday 17th November 2016 (Visakhapatnam)
Thursday 8th December 2016 (Mumbai)
Friday 16th December 2016 (Chennai)


I assume they then head home for Christmas before flying out again for:


ODI Series - India

Sunday 15th January 2017 ODI1 (Pune)
Thursday 19th January 2017 ODI2 (Cuttack)
Sunday 22nd January 2017 ODI 3 (Calcutta)

Thursday 26th January 2017 Ist T20 (Kanpur)
Sunday 29th January 2017 2nd T20 (Ragpur)
Wednesday 1st February 2017 3rd T20 (Bangalore)

There will be warmups, but not seen them specified yet.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:42 am

alfie wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Alfie,

The selectors had said that as there are no warm up games in India, they are selecting a single squad for both series. Unless they change their mind whoever opens in India will have toured Bangladesh.

Ah...I must have missed that. Makes sense I guess ; though it seems an odd business to go into a Test series anywhere without a warm up game.  Not sure I'd take it as gospel though ; if a couple more players declined to tour Bangladesh I suspect they'd reserve the right to adjust the squad for India.
Does this cover ODIs too ?  So no Morgan or  Hales for those matches ...or is that a separate issue (I am a bit hazy on the dates but I'm assuming the Tests in India come first ?)

England Test Tour to India 2016

9-13 November: first Test match, Rajkot
17-21 November: second Test match, Vishakapatnam
26-30 November: third Test match, Mohali
8-12 December: fourth Test match, Mumbai
16-20 December: fifth Test match, Chennai

India ODI / IT20 Tour 2017

10 January: One-day warm-up match, Mumbai, CCI
12 January: One-day warm-up match, Mumbai, CCI
15 January: first ODI, Pune
19 January: second ODI, Cuttack
22 January: third ODI, Kolkata
26 January: first IT20, Kanpur
29 January: second IT20, Nagpur
1 February: third IT20, Bangalore


Hales missing the Bangladesh tour makes it 99% certain that he wont open for the India series in Tests (injuries aside), but hes 99% certain to make the limited over games.

I think this is best for him as a player and wasnt really happy with his test selection last winter. Continuing with him in tests and trying to change his game will just distract from what he does well. Maybe unfortunate they didnt wait until this winter though, you'd think his style of play would be more suited to taking on bowlers on the flat slow pitches and destroying spinners than it is facing the new ball on seam friendly wickets.

Morgans captaincy isn't really under threat in the short term.



On a side note its nice to see them playing a decent number of T20s rather than an arduously long boring ODI series. Even if it isnt proper cricket.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:57 am

The ODI/T20 series in India should be incredible - a real test of this developing team in probably the hardest series you're going to get overseas for an English side

Hales/morgan come back into the ODI side for sure - but not laying Bangladesh gives opportunities to other guys to stake a claim and probably reduces their margin for error (Morgan in particular with the bat). And both Hales/Morgan will be aware of this

Who comes into the ODI side for them then? Bairstow obviously? Duckett to open? Maybe Billings as an outside shout? Not even mentioning guys like Malan, Bell Drummond there!!
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 10:28 am

Ali has opened with success in ODIs so may be an option. Bairstow "probably" comes in to replace Morgan, but I would like to see Duckett in that middle order position.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:59 pm

A century today at Durham for Jason Roy - I think he'll at least be in the mix when the Test selectors meet.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:11 am

Roy's first class record either this season or over his career does not really push him as a test contender. Any selection would be based purely on his ODI performances. Is that a good enough guide?

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:36 am

LondonTiger wrote:Roy's first class record either this season or over his career does not really push him as a test contender. Any selection would be based purely on his ODI performances. Is that a good enough guide?

Well hes had 3 good seasons in a row that have seen a fundamental improvement in his First Class game, this season hes obviously missed a lot of games because hes been with England.

But yes he still averages less in first class than he does in List A and is a big aggressive rapid scoring hitter. He only has 7 career centuries to his name ( less in total and per game than Hales and Ali). His game, and the century scored yesterday, although better now than it was is still based on the same principles as his successful limited overs game ...lots of shots, lots of power. Hes not ever going to be a player who's going to bat out 3 sessions to salvage a draw or hang around with the tail.
Certainly zero chance of him being considered as an opener (surely????) for this format. As a middle order player he could maybe get a daft haircut and an obnoxious attitude and be mistaken even more commonly for KP, if he could get similar returns for all the frustrations and disappointments I think we'd take that even if his coaches wouldn't.
But the evidence form his First Class career doesn't really scream to me that hes in that bracket, and for all the abuse he got KP in his prime actually did manage quite a few lengthy innings and could turn games both hanging around and coming out and scoring from the off. He had a lot more pedigree coming in than Roy would, and 2 of those quality seasons came in Div 2 which is pretty much useless for judging someones test potential purely off the back of runs scored.
I just dont see him being able to get away with his style of play against quality test attacks under pressure (although theres a strong argument that England wont be facing strong test attacks this winter ...but hey they could pick a pickle and it could score runs against Ishant)

Trying to turn Roy into a real test batsman would take time. With guys like Stokes, Bairstow, and Ali already making up the middle order it really leaves Root as the key to everything for England if you pick another aggressive stroke maker who simply doesnt have the mentality to play a defensive innings.
I wouldnt want to risk messing with the way he plays or distract him from training and improving on his core skills in a period where hes just starting to emerge as a force in ODIs. Thats exactly what they did to Hales, and it proved too much ...fortunately there hasnt been too much of a drop off in his limited over performances as a result, but the risk was there.
He also doenst help balance the spin options, so with an eye on the short term I think that will count against him.

He's possibly making a stronger case for a test place than Ansari has been doing of late though. (*Awaits outpouring of rage from Guilford*)

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:12 pm

Hi Goose and all,

I wasn't so much pushing for Roy to be in the Test squad as suggesting he'll even more be in the selectors' thoughts after his 120 at Durham yesterday.

I was on holiday at the time and so didn't hear him but understand that Alec Stewart told a Surrey members' forum a month ago that Bayliss liked Roy (by which, apparently, he meant really liked) and that a Test squad place could come his way if he impressed in the ODIs or final CC match.

You are never going to take the dasher out of Roy but he is playing these days with an increased responsibility. It's often overlooked that he had an excellent 4 day season in 2015. That followed his Surrey contract prohibiting him from playing in the IPL, apparently as mutually agreed between club and player so his red ball game could develop.

His career average still suffers to an extent by being mucked about by Chris Adams in his early years - in and out of the side and batting anywhere between 1 and 7.

That all said, I'm very much the Roy Boy as the Surrey mafia here will tell you and have been since I first saw him take 180 off an Essex 2nd XI six years ago.

As for Ansari - atm if it was raining soup down the Harleyford Road, the poor lad would be there with a knife and fork!

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:43 pm

Get Sam Curran on that plane (for the ODIs - instead of Jordan please)
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 8:34 am

He had a good 2014 as well didn't he Guilford? Lets not overlook that!

I guess my real issues are in people getting over excited off the back of pone or two decent county scores which by and large are meaningless indicators (otherwise Collingwood and Trescothick would've been in the frame at points this season) of real test potential, and also in trying to muck about with players who are really good at one format by playing in a very specific way thats not well suited to another.



As for Curran....an empty seat on the plane would be preferable to Jordan Whistle

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by VTR on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:24 am

Question on Morgan then - are we an improved ODI side in spite of or because of him?

My view would be in spite of: we have the players now on the batting side who would make any captain look good. Does Morgan really instruct Hales to go out and score 170, then strategically mastermind Buttler's 40 ball 100. Of course he doesn't. Its the selectors finally twigging that Cook and Bell might not be a great ODI opening partnership - something anyone could have told them

So I actually think Morgan the batsmen is taking the place of someone who would probably do better. Then just appoint someone who definitely makes the 11 as the captain - Buttler seeming a good choice

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 11:13 am

VTR wrote:Question on Morgan then - are we an improved ODI side in spite of or because of him?

My view would be in spite of: we have the players now on the batting side who would make any captain look good. Does Morgan really instruct Hales to go out and score 170, then strategically mastermind Buttler's 40 ball 100. Of course he doesn't. Its the selectors finally twigging that Cook and Bell might not be a great ODI opening partnership - something anyone could have told them

So I actually think Morgan the batsmen is taking the place of someone who would probably do better. Then just appoint someone who definitely makes the 11 as the captain - Buttler seeming a good choice

Its a been a long held argument and the question was raised around Morgan missing the tour giving someone a chance to push him out.
But its not going to happen (this winter anyway). We know that.

Should it?

Well the next name on the team sheet in Morgans place would be Bairstow. Morgan averages 37 @84, Bairstow 34 @89 ...so not much difference. But the last year, which is perhaps more relevant as it coincide with Bairstows return to form and Morgans slump its 29 @ 87 vs 37 @22

So yeah theres a fairly strong case that the captaincy is whats keeping Morgan in the side, and it was certainly his reputation as the only good England batsman post KP that got him the job in the first place. Its a pretty well known argument and not really controversial.

The thing is theres more to the captaincy than going out and telling Hales to score a shed load of runs. Theres all manner of tactical choices to be made during the game, and leadership is a thing. It really does affect the way a team performs. As does getting a squads buy in, and making them work as a group ( see Leicester City vs anything KP has ever been involved with). Its not just the captain of course but they play a part in this. The players have been pretty adamant that they are behind Morgan as a player and Captain, messing with that might mess with the dynamics. From all reports the limited overs squads currently are about the happiest places England players have been for some years (OK chicken and egg arguments as to whether its results that have created that, but I see it as a circular loop).
Theres also the role in facing the media and taking all manner of additional stresses. Is Buttler ready or the man to take all that on? Should it be Root as a future 3 formats Captain? Theres risk in messing with that.

Morgans form hant been quite limp enough for long enough to get him the boot from a winning side. England have been pretty clear its not happening.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by VTR on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:41 pm

Fair points - I suppose the advantageous thing now is that rather than it be theoretical we will be able to see how a Morgan-less England get on

Take the points on team spirit but I don't think that stems from one player. Nor do I believe ODI captaincy is that taxing. Not saying I could roll up and do it or anything but it does tend to be more formulaic than Test captaincy with the natural limits on fielding and bowling options

But it all boils down for me that I don't think Morgan is a particularly good player anymore, not helped by him playing hardly any cricket. I think there are some exciting talents being kept out such as Bairstow who is a player on a rapid rise

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:27 pm

Not that taxing aside form having to take the heat for performances at major tournaments.


In other news Duckett and Hameed are now odds on to get call ups.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 6:28 pm

Get Sam Curran on the plane - averaged 37 with the bat, 28 with the ball in division one as an 18 year old.

Absurd talent - get him in the setup and around the camp at least
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 6:57 pm

Eoin Morgan averages 39 at a strike rate of 92 since the start of 2015 and 44 at 91 this summer. But whatever, doesn't fit the narrative that he is terrible and hates England.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 7:06 pm

BBC also reporting that Hameed and Duckett are set to be named in the Test squad. And ODI squad for Duckett.

Think it is still too early for Sam C. Not good enough in either discipline yet. Will his little left arm swingers be effective in the Sub Continent (does he have more strings to his bow, bowling wise?) and is his batting good enough for international level? Not yet, from what little I have seen.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 7:09 pm

JDizzle wrote:Eoin Morgan averages 39 at a strike rate of 92 since the start of 2015 and 44 at 91 this summer. But whatever, doesn't fit the narrative that he is terrible and hates England.

BUT HES IRISH JDIZZLE - HES NOT COMMITTED BECAUSE HE DOESNT SING ABOUT SOME 90 YEAR OLD WOMAN AND DOESNT WANT TO TOUR A TERRORIST HOTSPOT BLAH BLAH BLAH

Morgan is one of England's best one day batsmen - possibly ever by the time he's done. His captaincy has been magnificent, he has played a major part in this one day revolution we've seen. He walks back into the side and will continue to play until such a point comes he stops playing well/captaining well
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:59 pm

John Ethridge reporting that the squad will include Hameed, Duckett, Ansari and Batty

Jack Leach can feel very hard done by if that's the case
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 11:29 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:John Ethridge reporting that the squad will include Hameed, Duckett, Ansari and Batty

Jack Leach can feel very hard done by if that's the case

Saw some quotes from Chris Rogers earlier on Twitter about Leach. Basically said that he is bowling really well at the moment, but he wondered whether one season of top performances in the CC were enough to be picked for England and whether he would emotionally stand up to a tour at this point. Pretty interesting stuff from a man who comes across a thoughtful and intelligent guy and they imply, to me, that Rogers does not think he is ready - and if your County skipper thinks that (especially one as experienced as CR) you probably are not ready.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 9:45 am

I'm not sure anyone can feel massively hard done by in not getting to tour, other than them taking an off form Ansari and others saying " I could be just as bad a pick as him".

It really does again though highlight how CC stats are only a very small piece of what goes into the selection decisions, and how little regard the competition has in terms of determining true long term test quality. Theres also the argument about bringing players through the system, those who have come through the age grade sides and performed for the Lions and been in Performance squads are always going to have a head start over those who haven't.

Leach has hit a purple patch in terms of wickets in the couple of months and surged out of nowhere ...but his record prior to this is nothing special including the first two thirds of the season where he was just another average county nobody.

I really don't see it as massively controversial to not take him.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 9:54 am

I so hope the rumours about Batty are right, not least to see Goose's reaction. Smile

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:03 am

England Test squad

Alastair Cook (captain, Essex), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Zafar Ansari (Surrey), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Gary Ballance (Yorkshire), Gareth Batty (Surrey), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Jos Buttler (wk, Lancashire), Ben Duckett (Northamptonshire), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Haseeb Hameed (Lancashire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham).

England ODI squad

Jos Buttler (captain, Lancashire), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Jake Ball (Nottinghamshire), Sam Billings (Kent), Liam Dawson (Hampshire), Ben Duckett (Northamptonshire), Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), James Vince (Hampshire), David Willey (Yorkshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham).

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by sirfredperry on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:15 am

Saw Hameed at The Oval this season. He looked very composed for a teenager, although it's always a big step up to Test cricket. The fact that Batty has been chosen shows the dearth of decent spinners in county cricket.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:16 am

Big squad. Rather a lot of bowlers.

Could be a bit of guesswork in putting out an XI for the Tests from that , with a limited amount of warm up...and not much for the "spares" to do once they've picked it. Which might prove tricky as they move on to India ; but not much they can do about it with the sparse schedule .

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:21 am

Huge test party, including old boy Batty, uncapped Ansari, Duckett & Hameed and Last chance saloon Ballance.

ODI squad sees Joe Root, voted by the fans as Englands ODI player of the year, rested.


Possible Lineups:

Test - Cook, Hameed, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Rashid, Woakes, Broad, Anderson with the final spot between Ballance, Buttler & Duckett. If they choose to play a 3rd spinner then one of the four seamers would drop out I guess.

ODI - No idea Very Happy Who opens with Roy? (Ali, Vince or Duckett) Who comes in for Root & Morgan? (Duckett, Vince, Bairstow or Billings). Do they play 3 spinners? My own lineup would probably be: Roy, Ali, Duckett, Buttler, Stokes, Billings, Woakes, Rashid, Plunkett, Willey, Wood

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by VTR on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:34 am

I don't think anyone said Morgan is terrible? Just that he maybe isn't that good and could be keeping better players out - not an outrageous opinion surely?

As for the squad - I don't mind at all taking a veteran spinner if he's the best available. Its worked before and we can't always be picking young players to try and develop them if they aren't good enough yet.

Yes, there is a dearth of spin bowling talent in the country but in 25 years of following cricket I can't remember it being any different. Swann was a freak talent who only matured at the age of about 30 and ended up being one of the best finger-spinners of all time. Given the climate over here I don't see it ever changing really. If we ever have a shortage of fast-medium bowlers then I would start to worry

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:34 am

guildfordbat wrote:I so hope the rumours about Batty are right, not least to see Goose's reaction. Smile

Well you got your way there , guildford... Even though you couldn't quite get Roy in the Test squad .
Nothing yet from Goose Smile

Await word from Olly as he has his original protege Ansari aboard but seems to have moved on to pushing the Curran bandwagon ...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:44 am

As to the XI I doubt they are taking Batty just for experience so expect to see him play in the first Test.
Perhaps
Cook Hameed Root Ali Bairstow Stokes Woakes Rashid Batty Broad Anderson

Though it does seem a bit bowler-heavy. Suppose the question there is : would the batsmen who might come in to it actually make more runs than the all rounders they'd replace ?

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 11:03 am

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:I so hope the rumours about Batty are right, not least to see Goose's reaction. Smile

Well you got your way there , guildford... Even though you couldn't quite get Roy in the Test squad .
Nothing yet from Goose Smile

Await word from Olly as he has his original protege Ansari aboard but seems to have moved on to pushing the Curran bandwagon ...

Hi Alfie - I'm sure that Olly will have Sam Curran going straight from the Lions to the full Test squad if there's even a hint of a niggle for Stokes or Woakes! Very Happy

As for Batty, he's no Swann but he's better than the ugly duckling who was selected by England to bowl at Lara a dozen years ago.

The Lions squad - due to be announced on Monday - will be interesting. Several from Surrey hoping for a ticket - particularly, the Currans, Foakes, Meaker and Burns. I assume the Lions tour overlaps with both the senior squads and so players like Roy and Ansari (who are only in one of the senior squads) won't be involved with the Lions this time - is that right?

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 11:14 am

Don't think anyone can have any complaints with those squads - those Chris Rogers quotes on Leach are pretty damning

Batty is a short term pick - but he's certainly improved as a bowler and will do a decent job if called upon. He will also act as a good mentor/coach type to the younger spinners on tour. I have to admit I'm excited to see him if he does play against India. Batty not afraid of a word or two against Virat Kohli who loves a bit of confrontation....

Duckett is an incredible talent who deserves a go - my test XI would be...

Cook
Duckett
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (WK)
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

Some might argue too many all rounders - but I think the six bowlers worked well last year in the UAE and would go with that again here
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 12:31 pm

Does Duckett open in First Class cricket?

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 1:00 pm

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:I so hope the rumours about Batty are right, not least to see Goose's reaction. Smile

Well you got your way there , guildford... Even though you couldn't quite get Roy in the Test squad .
Nothing yet from Goose Smile

Await word from Olly as he has his original protege Ansari aboard but seems to have moved on to pushing the Curran bandwagon ...

He could be rejoicing that Jordan didn't make either squad. Wink

Not a decision I go along with although I accept I'm in a minority.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by VTR on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 1:23 pm

Jordan was obviously rested - we don't want our key yorker bowler burning out ahead of the Champions Trophy Wink

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 3:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Does Duckett open in First Class cricket?

Yes but in Div 2 so I'm not sure it really counts.

Hit a double century the other day. Made masses of (limited overs) runs for the Lions, so hes a pretty strong pick.



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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

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