England v South Africa, 12 November

First topic message reminder :

       
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780

B. Recent Form

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw

16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa

27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).

SOUTH AFRICA

Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).

Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).

Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

BamBam wrote:Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

Who is Mr Jink Jink Splat?

I don't see the point in starting Goode only for him to fail to impress for the umpteenth time, he just isn't up to international standard, it's a bit pointless having him the squad too.

Yeah, thought so - Alex Goode.  Good description of the kind of player that frustrates the hell out of me. Thought I was alone as when I mention it in Irish threads all you get is Southern Comfort silence and crickets in the long grass. Some people really love Jink Jink Splat players for some reason.

SecretFly wrote:

BamBam wrote:Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

Who is Mr Jink Jink Splat?

Its important to remember at times that Goode's record for Saracens is phenomenal. But at international level all I can think of is the slow (sorry - 'deceptive' ) running the ball back, followed by the jink one way and then the other only to then run into the slowest guy on the other team and falling over (the 'splat')

We have any number of Saracen players (and former coaches)- and most if not all of them are brilliant. We can afford to leave one more at home.

I would go so far as to say Goode is Saracen's most key back and probably best back at Club level but the least suited to the International environment

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

BamBam wrote:Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

Who is Mr Jink Jink Splat?

Its important to remember at times that Goode's record for Saracens is phenomenal. But at international level all I can think of is the slow (sorry - 'deceptive' ) running the ball back, followed by the jink one way and then the other only to then run into the slowest guy on the other team and falling over (the 'splat')

We have any number of Saracen players (and former coaches)- and most if not all of them are brilliant. We can afford to leave one more at home.

I have never seen so many redundant side steps from one player. He is a bit like Luke Fitzgerald, plenty of skill and ability but doesnt have the rugby brain to match.

BamBam wrote:Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

Bambam doesn't seem to me as if you've actually watched rugby.

Goode deserves another opportunity, if he does not perform then I will perhaps agree with you.

The issue is sadly as it usually is. Not giving a player sufficient opportunities when their good form suggests they should get it.

Eddie Jones must reward good form. Jones must not hold back players either. Sadly he's put some players on an undroppable pedestal. Not a good way to do things.

He'll get away with it for some because he's winning matches.

I on the other hand will always scrutinise a coaches' selections. I am generally ahead of the curve. Telling the Welsh they should have got rid of Gatland and Howley a long time ago. Now only now are the chickens coming to roost. It's why this current England coaching up is the one I would have picked. I scrutinise selections I don't agree with but in general they are doing well.

Gunsgerms you are highly ignorant if you believe that Goode doesn't have a good rugby brain.

GunsGerms wrote:...He is a bit like Luke Fitzgerald, plenty of skill and ability but doesnt have the rugby brain to match.

Goode actually has one of the better rugby brains. When he won man of the match for England, it was because he was always well-positioned to take kicks, and return them with precision. He just seems to lack raw pace and elusiveness when he's in Tests. Nor can he match Brown's aggression to break tackles by going direct.

Rugby fan I think that's a good way to sum up Goode.

Some fans seem to favour raw attributes like pace and aggression over brain power, looking at you Bambam.

Of course Goode has a lot to prove, his struggling in that France 2014 will be on a lot of people's minds and that game vs Ireland when he and the entire England team struggled. Still beat a lot of defenders in that game.

His chances have been limited though.

I do think he has a good rugby brain. I also agree with the great 'redundant sidesteps' line.

But at the end of the day I don't think he has the skill set we need for England at full back and I don't think he is talented enough so that we should adapt the rest of the squad to accommodate him. (In contrast George Ford is talented enough so we do adapt the team around him).

Pace is a given for any back 3 player at international level, you simply can't carry a player without the pace to cover in defence and make line breaks in attack.

Full backs can arguably get away with a slight pace deficiency if they can break the line in other ways, or offer enough all round to be a difference maker regardless

Look at the full backs lining up for the other international sides

NZ - Smith - arguably the best all round back in rugby, has it all
Aus - Folau - supreme athlete
SA - Le Roux - definitely no slouch, but the skills to do damage anyway - can you imagine Goode scoring the try he did at the weekend?
Argentina - Tuculet - fantastic counter attacking runner with a big boot
Ireland - Kearney - the slowest of the lot, but brilliant under the high ball and can break tackles with his power - from what I've seen a lot of the Irish want him replaced anyway!
Wales - Halfpenny/Williams - both quick, strong and great defenders, plus 1/2p has the boot
Scotland - Hogg - up there as one of the best in the world

How does Goode even come close to these players? Brown at his best can compete with any of them head to head (as you are so fond of these head to head comparisons its important to look at this)

Having a excellent rugby brain (which Goode definitely does) just isn't enough without the physical attributes to really take advantage of them at international level, and if he plays it'll be a wasted opportunity for a youngster like Haley.

Either start Brown and build consistency, or look at it as a chance to experiment and throw in the unknown quantity, not the known bang average

Don't forget that Ford has a safety blanket now, I want to see more of Ford without it.

At some point Farrell will be injured and that means goal kicking duties will need to go elsewhere.

Goode hasn't much gametime in the last 3 years at international level. I don't think it's completely fair to write him off just yet.

Bambam

Personally I thought Folau and Hogg were both brainless on the weekend, great athletes but poor decision making, broke down attacks and put their teams in trouble. No look passes are fine if they work out but are a risk. Scotland needed someone to control territory in that 2nd half. Not try and force things.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps Goode isn't quick enough but those FBs especially Brown,Hogg and Folau you suggest do not have good rugby brains IMO.

Using athletic prowess is not the same as using your brain.

I do think there is potentially room for a more intelligent full back.

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

Bambam doesn't seem to me as if you've actually watched rugby.

Goode deserves another opportunity, if he does not perform then I will perhaps agree with you.

The issue is sadly as it usually is. Not giving a player sufficient opportunities when their good form suggests they should get it.

Eddie Jones must reward good form. Jones must not hold back players either. Sadly he's put some players on an undroppable pedestal. Not a good way to do things.

He'll get away with it for some because he's winning matches.

I on the other hand will always scrutinise a coaches' selections. I am generally ahead of the curve. Telling the Welsh they should have got rid of Gatland and Howley a long time ago. Now only now are the chickens coming to roost. It's why this current England coaching up is the one I would have picked. I scrutinise selections I don't agree with but in general they are doing well.

Gunsgerms you are highly ignorant if you believe that Goode doesn't have a good rugby brain.

This will annoy yappy but hey ho. Bit rich for you to tell others they don't watch enough rugby when you only watch Saracens and then try to criticise players you never watch. And ahead of the curve...ha. See point 1.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:Yes but May has actually shown something other than bang average at international level, there's something to harness

Mr Jink Jink Splat should only get another start if Brown, Watson, Haley and my nan are all unavailable to play full back

Bambam doesn't seem to me as if you've actually watched rugby.

Goode deserves another opportunity, if he does not perform then I will perhaps agree with you.

The issue is sadly as it usually is. Not giving a player sufficient opportunities when their good form suggests they should get it.

Eddie Jones must reward good form. Jones must not hold back players either. Sadly he's put some players on an undroppable pedestal. Not a good way to do things.

He'll get away with it for some because he's winning matches.

I on the other hand will always scrutinise a coaches' selections.  I am generally ahead of the curve. Telling the Welsh they should have got rid of Gatland and Howley a long time ago.  Now only now are the chickens coming to roost. It's why this current England coaching up is the one I would have picked. I scrutinise selections I don't agree with but in general they are doing well.

Gunsgerms you are highly ignorant if you believe that Goode doesn't have a good rugby brain.

This will annoy yappy but hey ho. Bit rich for you to tell others they don't watch enough rugby when you only watch Saracens and then try to criticise players you never watch. And ahead of the curve...ha. See point 1.

no 7 & 1/2 I don't just watch Saracens. I admit I don't watch every game of rugby but I watch enough.

I've been ahead of the curve. If you are too stupid to see it well.... I cannot help you. I've tried to explain things to you before. It's not easy.

I've said how I've been ahead of the curve. Perhaps you need a year or more to catch up....

Eddie Jones must reward good form. Jones must not hold back players either. Sadly he's put some players on an undroppable pedestal. Not a good way to do things.

He'll get away with it for some because he's winning matches.

I on the other hand will always scrutinise a coaches' selections.  I am generally ahead of the curve. Telling the Welsh they should have got rid of Gatland and Howley a long time ago.  Now only now are the chickens coming to roost. It's why this current England coaching up is the one I would have picked. I scrutinise selections I don't agree with but in general they are doing well.

Insults again beshocked. Tell me again what's the best way to judge a player, by their teams results isn't it?! TBF it's my own fault, I know you're biased (or possibly the best wum around).

LondonTiger wrote:

Eddie Jones must reward good form. Jones must not hold back players either. Sadly he's put some players on an undroppable pedestal. Not a good way to do things.

He'll get away with it for some because he's winning matches.

I on the other hand will always scrutinise a coaches' selections.  I am generally ahead of the curve. Telling the Welsh they should have got rid of Gatland and Howley a long time ago.  Now only now are the chickens coming to roost. It's why this current England coaching up is the one I would have picked. I scrutinise selections I don't agree with but in general they are doing well.

Londontiger not sure what you actually disagree with. I did initially want Jones,Gustard and Borthwick as my ideal coaching set up. I remember you and others doubting the coaches' credentials and you made some fair points.

Championing a certain player before others jumped on the bandwagon etc.

no 7 & 1/2 you are a very good WUM. Your attitude does annoy me quite a bit.

It's not necessarily team results. The problem with you is that you focus on only my bias comments (I will freely admit I say biased things) whereas I say many non bias things too.

Every poster has bias but it's generally only my bias which is pointed out.

Most things I am accused of I could say about other posters.

You really do think you're the sage of this board, and we should all be blessed to have your presence amongst us don't you

Sorry made a promise, not going to tit for tat you anymore. Only new topics and a fresh outlook!

BamBam wrote:You really do think you're the sage of this board, and we should all be blessed to have your presence amongst us don't you  

No I don't think I am THE sage. There are many knowledgeable posters on these boards. Many less biased than me, on the other hand there have been times when I've been right and others have not.

I do think I have more knowledge than given credit for yes. I do think at times I am unfairly criticised. Notably by you (Bambam) and no 7 &1/2.

I admit I find it annoying when my correct predictions get ignored/dismissed.

I think there are times when people do not admit they were wrong. There have been times when I have indeed been ahead of the curve. No it doesn't mean I am the greatest or best poster. I am not. I am flawed. I am also obviously occasionally wrong.


Gunsgerms sexist comments do not reflect well on you. Trying to be the Irish Donald Trump?

Guns, have you been a naughty boy

Just where are those 'Trump' comments from Guns?

Oooh new account. Perhaps he 'lost' his password....

Haha. First ever ban for "personal abuse".

Bit of a soft ban but I will take it on the chin.