Wales v South Africa, 26 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:38 am

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Wales v South Africa, 26 November - Page 4 Wales_11   Wales v South Africa, 26 November - Page 4 Sa10
WALES v SOUTH AFRICA
26 November 2016
KO: 17:30 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on BBC Two & S4C

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Greg Garner (England), Tom Foley (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

31 Played 31
2 Won 28
1 Drawn 1
28 Lost 2
837 Points 459

B. Recent Form

17 October 2015
Twickenham Stadium, London, England
23–19 to South Africa

29 November 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
12–6 to Wales

21 June 2014
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
31–30 to South Africa

14 June 2014
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban
38–16 to South Africa

9 November 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–24 to South Africa

11 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
17–16 to South Africa

13 November 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
25–29 to South Africa

C. Teams

WALES 
Wales v South Africa, 26 November - Page 4 Dragon11
Halfpenny; North, J Davies, S Williams, Liam Williams; Biggar, G Davies; Jenkins (capt), Owens, Francis, Charteris, Wyn Jones, Lydiate, Moriarty, Tipuric.

Replacements: Baldwin, Smith, Lee, Hill, Faletau, Lloyd Williams, S Davies, Roberts.

SOUTH AFRICA
Wales v South Africa, 26 November - Page 4 Spring10
Johan Goosen; Ruan Combrinck, Francois Venter, Rohan Janse van Rensburg, Jamba Ulengo; Elton Jantjies, Faf de Klerk; Tendai Mtawariri, Adriaan Strauss (capt), Lourens Adriaanse, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Lood de Jager, Nizaam Carr, Uzair Cassiem, Warren Whiteley.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, teven Kitshoff, Trevor Nyakane, Franco Mostert, Jean-Luc du Preez, Piet van Zyl, Pat Lambie, Lionel Mapoe.


Last edited by George Carlin on Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:16 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by exile jack on Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:41 am

George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?

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Post by wayne on Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:45 am

exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?


You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

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Post by chris_501 on Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:14 pm

I would take a win over a terrible South Africa rather than a loss any day. Had Ireland been beaten heavily by Australia, would we have even up to 4th in the rankings?

Overall from this set of AIs, we have managed to flip round something that has not always been the case, we have won against SH teams playing badly, rather than losing valiantly to them playing well.


If I was to look back on the series I would assess like this-


Positives

- Moriarty has once again proved that he is an international class back row, and can provide cover at 8 if Faletau gets injured, and looks to have taken on the number 6 shirt from Lydiate

-Tipuric and Faletau linked incredibly well, ok it was only for one half of one match, but with a run of games, Tipuric looks as though he gets the international game

- Liam Williams is a genuinely class attacking player, it was a shame that he wasn't at FB yesterday, but he has the confidence many of our backs are lacking

- Tomas Francis has doubled our tighthead options. The scrum looked like it edged the SA pack when he was on the field




Negatives

- The total lack of confidence from our backline. I don't agree that they are all terrible players, but they seem to lack that confidence and clinical edge that we saw from the Australian backs

- Nobody has nailed down the hooker spot, both had moments of playing well, but equally showed their fallibility in areas

- Some players are still close to the squad that need to be sent back to their regions for a long while to develop their game or refind what got them selected in the first place

- Finally, and possibility the most worrying is the apparent lack of coaches to see the huge weaknesses we showed throughout the series, as well as some bizarre selection policies.

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Post by exile jack on Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:23 pm

wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?




You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

Wayne,McBryde is incapable of developing,producing and sustaining an international pack.Without Tipuric,AWJ,Faletau and Gethin we'd be grossly uncompetitive.Looking at the Scottish team this AIs,they have developed a coherent international pack and a matching tactical approach so Humpy must take some credit for that.

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Post by exile jack on Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:39 pm

chris_501 wrote:I would take a win over a terrible South Africa rather than a loss any day. Had Ireland been beaten heavily by Australia, would we have even up to 4th in the rankings?

Overall from this set of AIs, we have managed to flip round something that has not always been the case, we have won against SH teams playing badly, rather than losing valiantly to them playing well.


If I was to look back on the series I would assess like this-


Positives

- Moriarty has once again proved that he is an international class back row, and can provide cover at 8 if Faletau gets injured, and looks to have taken on the number 6 shirt from Lydiate

-Tipuric and Faletau linked incredibly well, ok it was only for one half of one match, but with a run of games, Tipuric looks as though he gets the international game

- Liam Williams is a genuinely class attacking player, it was a shame that he wasn't at FB yesterday, but he has the confidence many of our backs are lacking

- Tomas Francis has doubled our tighthead options. The scrum looked like it edged the SA pack when he was on the field




Negatives

- The total lack of confidence from our backline. I don't agree that they are all terrible players, but they seem to lack that confidence and clinical edge that we saw from the Australian backs

- Nobody has nailed down the hooker spot, both had moments of playing well, but equally showed their fallibility in areas

- Some players are still close to the squad that need to be sent back to their regions for a long while to develop their game or refind what got them selected in the first place

- Finally, and possibility the most worrying is the apparent lack of coaches to see the huge weaknesses we showed throughout the series, as well as some bizarre selection policies.

A very fair assessment but I'd like to add:
-Liam needs to improve his ability to bring others into play after line breaks;
-our 3/4 play is really,really poor;
-our 9s are too slow around scrum,ruck and maul;
-our restarts are too easy for opponents to manage;
-quite a few players are for whatever reason well off form;
-some of our players look overly musclebound;
-the coaches pick on reputation not form;
-Sam D should make himself unavailable for Wales because the Welsh coaches will destroy his potential.

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Post by George Carlin on Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:47 pm

exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?
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Post by wayne on Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:51 pm

exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?




You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

Wayne,McBryde is incapable of developing,producing and sustaining an international pack.Without Tipuric,AWJ,Faletau and Gethin we'd be grossly uncompetitive.Looking at the Scottish team this AIs,they have developed a coherent international pack and a matching tactical approach so Humpy must take some credit for that.

Sorry but that is a total load of garbage, all the improvement has come about since Cotter has come on board, Humphreys had a number of years with Jawnson first at the Ospreys and then with Scotland and showed no expertise whatsoever in any facet of forward play, he was lucky that for a number of years the scrum engagement suited the Bomb, personally I don't rate Gibbes with us very highly, but at least he his light years ahead of Humphreys in the formation and defence of a rolling maul.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:00 pm

Flipping awful rugby from two teams playing well below the sum of their parts. That was the worst performance from SA I have ever seen and they were right in the game for 60 minutes. I hope we and they improve for the sake of world rugby.

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Post by exile jack on Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:22 pm

wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?




You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

Wayne,McBryde is incapable of developing,producing and sustaining an international pack.Without Tipuric,AWJ,Faletau and Gethin we'd be grossly uncompetitive.Looking at the Scottish team this AIs,they have developed a coherent international pack and a matching tactical approach so Humpy must take some credit for that.

Sorry but that is a total load of garbage, all the improvement has come about since Cotter has come on board, Humphreys had a number of years with Jawnson first at the Ospreys and then with Scotland and showed no expertise whatsoever in any facet of forward play, he was lucky that for a number of years the scrum engagement suited the Bomb, personally I don't rate Gibbes with us very highly, but at least he his light years ahead of Humphreys in the formation and defence of a rolling maul.

Bit too cycloptic for me.I always thought you were a fan of the give Tandy a few years to develop school as a coach.At least he and Humpy show signs of development.McBryde's had some 8 years to date with 3 more to come.Shame he hasn't learnt anything yet,and shows no sign of changing that.




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Post by wayne on Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:58 pm

[quote="exile jack"]
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?




You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

Wayne,McBryde is incapable of developing,producing and sustaining an international pack.Without Tipuric,AWJ,Faletau and Gethin we'd be grossly uncompetitive.Looking at the Scottish team this AIs,they have developed a coherent international pack and a matching tactical approach so Humpy must take some credit for that.

Sorry but that is a total load of garbage, all the improvement has come about since Cotter has come on board, Humphreys had a number of years with Jawnson first at the Ospreys and then with Scotland and showed no expertise whatsoever in any facet of forward play, he was lucky that for a number of years the scrum engagement suited the Bomb, personally I don't rate Gibbes with us very highly, but at least he his light years ahead of Humphreys in the formation and defence of a rolling maul.

Bit too cycloptic for me.I always thought you were a fan of the give Tandy a few years to develop school as a coach.At least he and Humpy show signs of development.McBryde's had some 8 years to date with 3 more to come.Shame he hasn't learnt anything yet,and shows no sign of changing that.

Sorry what has Steve Tandy got to do, about the relative merits of Humphreys against Gibbes, Humph had 7 years with us and our forward strength was gradually getting worse every season, whereas Gibbes in 3 seasons has vastly improved our mauling technique with a lot less money and class. The vast improvement in Scotland has only come about since Cotter has come on board. We (Ospreys) made a big error when we kept on Humphreys and let Filo Tiatia go to Japan, now that is a man whose input has dramatically improved the sides forward play.
Look I'm not any big McBride fan, but having the pleasure of seeing Humphreys coaching expertise with a multitude of class forwards and not for instance ever seeing a decent rolling maul, even though he had the likes of Jones, Bennett, Jones, AWJ, Ianto, Gough, Hollah, Tiatia Ryan Jones, Johnathon Thomas in his ranks coaching them on a day to day basis, whereas Mcbride only had them on an intermittent basis, I would much prefer McBride to him.

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Post by wayne on Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:07 pm

Have to say I much preferred our game (Ospreys v Glasgow) on Friday night to that turgid affair yesterday, apart from a few touches of class by the likes of Gethin (stripping) Dan B (stripping, dink, up and under that he caught) Tuperic (strip, lines of running and linking play), Faletau's delay and pass for the try and Moriarty's general contribution. The rest was entirely forgettable.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:10 pm

A lot of stripping going on!? I'm kinda happy I missed that game now Whistle

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Post by wayne on Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:A lot of stripping going on!?  I'm kinda happy I missed that game now Whistle

I wondered who'd have given that response Fly, I suppose it was obvious it would be you Very Happy

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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:A lot of stripping going on!?  I'm kinda happy I missed that game now Whistle

Well, the actual rugby wasn't entertaining, so they thought try something a bit different. Heads up rugby, I think it's called. Or something-up rugby, anyway.

Back on point, there were glimpses of what we need for the future. As you imply, wayne, Tips and Faletau have the capability to play the kind of dynamic game, powerful running with offloading game that the ABs do. I even saw AWJ try it a couple of times too. Replace Lydiate with Moriarty and use the Davies boy at 10 and we could have the nucleus of a new style.

But it all depends on whether Howley can see it. Hmm. Yeah. So that'll happen.

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Post by exile jack on Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:22 pm

[quote="wayne"]
exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?




You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

Wayne,McBryde is incapable of developing,producing and sustaining an international pack.Without Tipuric,AWJ,Faletau and Gethin we'd be grossly uncompetitive.Looking at the Scottish team this AIs,they have developed a coherent international pack and a matching tactical approach so Humpy must take some credit for that.

Sorry but that is a total load of garbage, all the improvement has come about since Cotter has come on board, Humphreys had a number of years with Jawnson first at the Ospreys and then with Scotland and showed no expertise whatsoever in any facet of forward play, he was lucky that for a number of years the scrum engagement suited the Bomb, personally I don't rate Gibbes with us very highly, but at least he his light years ahead of Humphreys in the formation and defence of a rolling maul.

Bit too cycloptic for me.I always thought you were a fan of the give Tandy a few years to develop school as a coach.At least he and Humpy show signs of development.McBryde's had some 8 years to date with 3 more to come.Shame he hasn't learnt anything yet,and shows no sign of changing that.

Sorry what has Steve Tandy got to do, about the relative merits of Humphreys against Gibbes, Humph had 7 years with us and our forward strength was gradually getting worse every season, whereas Gibbes in 3 seasons has vastly improved our mauling technique with a lot less money and class. The vast improvement in Scotland has only come about since Cotter has come on board. We (Ospreys) made a big error when we kept on Humphreys and let Filo Tiatia go to Japan, now that is a man whose input has dramatically improved the sides forward play.
Look I'm not any big McBride fan, but having the pleasure of seeing Humphreys coaching expertise with a multitude of class forwards and not for instance ever seeing a decent rolling maul, even though he had the likes of Jones, Bennett, Jones, AWJ, Ianto, Gough, Hollah, Tiatia Ryan Jones, Johnathon Thomas in his ranks coaching them on a day to day basis, whereas Mcbride only had them on an intermittent basis, I would much prefer McBride to him.

You seem to be talking about a McBride whereas i'm talking about Robyn Currie McBryde,ex-Llanelli and Wales hooker who has had several years to transform Welsh forward play without success.If you know anything about Cotter you will know he doesn't indulge in the old boys network that holds Welsh international rugby back.Unlike the self-perpetuating clique around Gatland,Cotter would give Humpy the bums rush if he wasn't up to the job.I suspect Gatland will never coach NZ because he shows no sign of wanting excellence from his coaching staff-not something you could lay at the door of Henry,Hansen,Schmidt or Cotter.I'd be very happy to see Filo and Jamie Joseph coach Wales or the Ospreys.Get on the phone to Phillips and Blyth.

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Post by wayne on Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:17 pm

exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
wayne wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Tell you what,we'll give you Howley and his coaching cowboys if you give us Cotter and his coaching team in exchange.How about from tomorrow?




You want Humphreys? I would want even McBride before that clown, he was useless at the Ospreys.

Wayne,McBryde is incapable of developing,producing and sustaining an international pack.Without Tipuric,AWJ,Faletau and Gethin we'd be grossly uncompetitive.Looking at the Scottish team this AIs,they have developed a coherent international pack and a matching tactical approach so Humpy must take some credit for that.

Sorry but that is a total load of garbage, all the improvement has come about since Cotter has come on board, Humphreys had a number of years with Jawnson first at the Ospreys and then with Scotland and showed no expertise whatsoever in any facet of forward play, he was lucky that for a number of years the scrum engagement suited the Bomb, personally I don't rate Gibbes with us very highly, but at least he his light years ahead of Humphreys in the formation and defence of a rolling maul.

Bit too cycloptic for me.I always thought you were a fan of the give Tandy a few years to develop school as a coach.At least he and Humpy show signs of development.McBryde's had some 8 years to date with 3 more to come.Shame he hasn't learnt anything yet,and shows no sign of changing that.

Sorry what has Steve Tandy got to do, about the relative merits of Humphreys against Gibbes, Humph had 7 years with us and our forward strength was gradually getting worse every season, whereas Gibbes in 3 seasons has vastly improved our mauling technique with a lot less money and  class. The vast improvement in Scotland has only come about since Cotter has come on board. We (Ospreys) made a big error when we kept on Humphreys and let Filo Tiatia go to Japan, now that is a man whose input has dramatically improved the sides forward play.
Look I'm not any big McBride fan, but having the pleasure of seeing Humphreys coaching expertise with a multitude of class forwards and not for instance ever seeing a decent rolling maul, even though he had the likes of Jones, Bennett, Jones, AWJ, Ianto, Gough, Hollah, Tiatia Ryan Jones, Johnathon Thomas  in his ranks coaching them on a day to day basis, whereas Mcbride only had them on an intermittent basis, I would much prefer McBride to him.

You seem to be talking about a McBride whereas i'm talking about Robyn Currie McBryde,ex-Llanelli and Wales hooker who has had several years to transform Welsh forward play without success.If you know anything about Cotter you will know he doesn't indulge in the old boys network that holds Welsh international rugby back.Unlike the self-perpetuating clique around Gatland,Cotter would give Humpy the bums rush if he wasn't up to the job.I suspect Gatland will never coach NZ because he shows no sign of wanting excellence from his coaching staff-not something you could lay at the door of Henry,Hansen,Schmidt or Cotter.I'd be very happy to see Filo and Jamie Joseph coach Wales or the Ospreys.Get on the phone to Phillips and Blyth.

Wow I get one letter wrong, and then you put in Cotter with the likes of Henry, Hansen and Schmidt, now that truly is delusional, and as good as Cotter is, what are his imminent job prospects like? McBride has not taken the set of forwards backwards as Humphreys did with the Ospreys, and as I said the improvement within Scottish Rugby commenced with Cotter arriving. Who said Gatland would be taking over NZ? NOT ME. I'm comparing the respective merits of the Hump and McBryde and as I said I know who has performed the better with the available players at their respective levels and it is NOT the Hump.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:43 pm

ChumV back to normal next weekend I spose. There we are then.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:09 pm

Peter Jackson was such a breath of fresh air.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:43 pm

uncle_nigel wrote:Peter Jackson was such a breath of fresh air.

ChumV needs to "evolve".
It is the showcase rugby tv show in Wales and us plebs deserve better.
Invite a different outsider every week at least. Somebody not in the bubble. Same goes for match commentary.

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Post by munkian on Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:47 am

George Carlin wrote:Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.


Agreed, just feels a little flat is all. A loss to SA wouldn't tear up any coaching contracts.
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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:53 am

SA surprised me...said they would lose by 15, egg on my face huh. Wales did what was required and never looked in danger and are probably a better side than results like Japan suggest. With Ireland and England at home this year I think they are well placed to challenge for the 6N title.. as much as Ireland or England.

SA, well they need a new coach and a strong look in the mirror over their direction. They can't undermine their players, their clubs etc with defunct policies.

They have the players to continue past relative strength but they can't forever go out to the crease with broken bats. Form is cyclical, even SA has dips in form but players like Nizaam Carr... he wouldn't even be a Pro12/AP/Top14 starter.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:11 am

Carr and Janties can't be the best players in their positions in SA... The rest of the team has potential though and just need some direction. Steven Kitshoff looks like a good LH and should probably be the starter. The rest of their backline looked good but a little lightweight - they seemed to struggle with the physicality. The Springboks have spent so many years building up a respect for their national team but they're in danger of losing that now. It's pretty sad to see it come to this.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:15 am

uncle_nigel wrote:Carr and Janties can't be the best players in their positions in SA... The rest of the team has potential though and just need some direction. Steven Kitshoff looks like a good LH and should probably be the starter. The rest of their backline looked good but a little lightweight - they seemed to struggle with the physicality. The Springboks have spent so many years building up a respect for their national team but they're in danger of losing that now. It's pretty sad to see it come to this.

Carr isn't even in the top 6 loose forwards at the Stormers... and that's no exaggeration. He would barely be good enough for the RFU championship. I don't know one area of his game that I could say he's worthy of saying.. he's good at x. He's not a big tackler, not a steady tackler, not a good ball handler, fast or has a good rugby brain, he's small and is poor in the lineout.

Jantjies is very similar... and people try and compare him to Carlos Spencer (probably the most talented 10 in pro rugby history). Jokes huh.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:20 am

even Tendai Mtawarira is now simply picking up his giro.

He's talented but no one keeps him on his toes because his selection is gauranteed. He's called the beast but he has lost his hunger... complacency does that to you. Kitsoff is good enough to challenge and start a few games but the coach is forced to pick Tendai... and through no fault of his own he's become too relaxed to push himself to his absolute limit.
Then take Kitsoff... he's supremely talented and should have entered the scene 2 years ago. SA almost lost him and to Coetzee's credit he begged him to come back and not join the French set up. He knows he can never topple Tendai... how demoralising is that for a young player?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:23 am

Price paid though for the previous setups.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Price paid though for the previous setups.

As in coaches or rulings?

I agree on rulings... previously SA were running into a wind but now that they are no longer constantly able to replace world class quality instantly results are now going their way. Its a combination of a slight drop in talent and the ramp up of the rules.

People love Faf but he shows nothing bar enthusiasm and whilst supremely talented guys like Rory Kockott were ignored and today tearing up the top14 the difference between the 2 is stark.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:28 am

So what is the quota rule now exactly? It seems SA need to lose that just so they can feel good about themselves, then secondly get more good players in their team, perhaps even looking at those playing in Europe and Japan. By the way I would imagine if that did happen the Lions would still have a strong representation in the team.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:29 am

fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Price paid though for the previous setups.

As in coaches or rulings?

I agree on rulings... previously SA were running into a wind but now that they are no longer constantly able to replace world class quality instantly results are now going their way. Its a combination of a slight drop in talent and the ramp up of the rules.

People love Faf but he shows nothing bar enthusiasm and whilst supremely talented guys like Rory Kockott were ignored and today tearing up the top14 the difference between the 2 is stark.

Not sure if Kockott was ignored but he had 2/3 good 9's ahead of him from what I remember. CJ Stander was ignored because they thought 6'2 was too short. Stander can now claim to be of the best in his positions in world rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:32 am

Rulings, medium to long term it'll be beneficial but going to be tough over the next few years.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rulings, medium to long term it'll be beneficial but going to be tough over the next few years.

Can't see how it's going to be beneficial. SA rugby should take measures to create more opportunities for black and coloured players at a young age. I'd say offering more school scholarships is a good way to go as rugby in SA seems like a sport for the upper classes.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:37 am

7 in a match day squad I understand although it gets a little more complicated as I understand the 7 must include a certain number of Africans as in can't all be cape coloured (mixed race like Habana who themselves have a strong tradition in playing rugby).

The problem SA have now... Coetzee won't walk, he'll get a big payoff hurting SARU even more and frankly its not a job most would want. The natural successor would be Rassie Erasmus but why would he? Money... they can't offer him more than Munster. Hassle, why deal with the politics and trash his name?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:42 am

uncle_nigel wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Rulings, medium to long term it'll be beneficial but going to be tough over the next few years.

Can't see how it's going to be beneficial. SA rugby should take measures to create more opportunities for black and coloured players at a young age. I'd say offering more school scholarships is a good way to go as rugby in SA seems like a sport for the upper classes.

Will give them a broader reach eventually and focus the minds of everyone in how to create those opportunities which didn't seem to present themselves over a good number of years.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:44 am

uncle_nigel wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Rulings, medium to long term it'll be beneficial but going to be tough over the next few years.

Can't see how it's going to be beneficial. SA rugby should take measures to create more opportunities for black and coloured players at a young age. I'd say offering more school scholarships is a good way to go as rugby in SA seems like a sport for the upper classes.

Schools offer significant scholarships already, I'd say its probably the most advanced that I know.  They have a competition called Craven week which pools the best players in the country together every year... schools literally turn up and scout offering free education and board. All the top players benefit from it... nearly all the non white players (and the white players) were scouted in this manner.

In the end you can only do so much.

You can bring in the best coaches, throw them balls from a young age. Some people are born to be rugby players, some are not.

Lets be frank... SA is begging for a non white flank forward and they try so so hard. They exhausted through so many players, got them the best conditioners, best trainers yet they still can't find one. Kolisi is the best of the bunch but he again has his faults of being not quite a 6 not quite a 7 (like a Robshaw but Robshaw -2.0). Best Tackler in SA and has a great engine on him but frankly.. SA have better.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:48 am

It's that sort of outlook that needs to be worked through fa.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:49 am

don't want to make out its the only problem though... its only 1 of them problems but admittedly one which impacts all others.

Players playing in foreign leagues is another (well over 300)... both those who commit to the boks and those physically knackered by travelling the world playing 12 months a year rugby.

The financial wealth of NZ and AUS is not that much greater than SA in terms of what the top players receive... so why do so many more SA players leave.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's that sort of outlook that needs to be worked through fa.

I agree... a lot of brutal honesty is required and one which I don't think SA can handle.

You see it in business too. When non white employees fail professional exams or aren't making the grade... its always their managers fault. Accountability is as big a problem (see previous critique of Tendai Mtawarira as an example to that). Complacency is as much the root of the rot of the game as the rulings.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:53 am

Well my point was the racism which is still pretty evident.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well my point was the racism which is still pretty evident.

In terms of rugby I'm not so sure.  Amongst the people sure its still there but you know people just want a winning team. It undermines a lot of attempts to cross divides when you see chaps like Rory Kockott, Scott Spedding, CJ Stander tearing up big performances for other countries because they were ignored.... often due to those from other races getting boosts.

One of the biggest stars for kids in SA today is Amla... he's Indian Muslim and yet I see Afrikaner kids with his name on his shirt, pretending to be him and why... because he's a winner. Kids are smarter than people think. They see sports stars not as seeing idols not purely as big version of me but as winners and losers.
That's where SA gets it wrong. Bissie should be the idol of all front rowers, Habana should be the idol of all wingers, Schalk the pin up of all would be flanks. That's how it is in Europe and the rest of the world. That's where SA fails and will continue to fail.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:01 am

Yup, because the whites are 'better'.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, because the whites are 'better'.

and if they are/were people should have no issue with it. The racism is that statement is not necessarily the ignorance that Whites will always be better but also that if they are indeed better then people shouldn't have a problem with acknowledging it either.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:07 am

It's unlikely that in a country of the makeup of SA there would continued domination of white players. It looks dodgy and knowing a couple of SA lokos to be underpinned by racism.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, because the whites are 'better'.

It certainly seems that way.

I've met a few white South Africans living between cities like Bristol and London. They tell me that despite being well qualified they're unable to get a job back home because of their skin colour. You don't get a job unless you know someone in the organization. That seems pretty racist to me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:11 am

It had to happen. The overall dominance and bias to whites as superior continues, Guy I know not bothered about following SA rugby now because of the rules not becasue of the losses but because of too many players who aren't white full stop. Pretty shocked when I talked to him about it as he struck me as a normal guy before that.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's unlikely that in a country of the makeup of SA there would continued domination of white players. It looks dodgy and knowing a couple of SA lokos to be underpinned by racism.

Do you agree that rugby suits taller people than not? If we look at top pro sides like England, Wales, New Zealand, how many of those players are consistently in about the top 10% of the general population? I.e literally 6'1 or taller?

We've had this conversation before and literally everyone from SA agrees. Non whites are a lot shorter than whites. The average height of zulu's is 5'5. I've probably met about 1-2 non whites (excluding Indian South Africans who can be very tall indeed) who are 6ft plus.

https://businesstech.co.za/news/general/131750/the-world-is-getting-taller-but-not-so-much-in-south-africa/

if you don't believe me see the above.

Now if you are 6'1 in SA amongst a population where the average height is 5'5 you're literally in the top 0.5% rather than simply the top 10% in the UK. It cuts down the pool significantly.

https://tall.life/height-percentile-calculator-age-country/

And yet whites in SA are actually taller than those in the UK, close to 6ft.

This is not racism. If you can't acknowledge some people are tall and some people are not then you have a big problem in discussions such as these. and yes... height in rugby matters. Its not the be all and end all but they have to have a certain size to compete.

Look at their non white players such as Kolisi or Carr (both 6ft). They are competing for backrow positions where the average may be 3-4 inches taller. Its a struggle.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:23 am

The beauty is it suits all sizes. Ruling people out by size is stupid, doing so because they ain't white is shocking. But been through this before.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The beauty is it suits all sizes. Ruling people out by size is stupid, doing so because they ain't white is shocking. But been through this before.

have a look at the top tier teams in the world if you like and pick out those who are shorter than 5'10 (lets take that as a global average for argument sake)... I bet you find less than 15 on any given week for say the top 10 sides (6N and RC) out of 150 starters.... not like Ben Youngs and Danny Care for instance fighting for same position.

Then tell me height has no correlation with being a top tier test rugby player.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:29 am

Just a convenient excuse I'm afraid. These changes will bring about some good change, but for some peoples views it will result in a team they're not prepared to follow any longer.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It had to happen. The overall dominance and bias to whites as superior continues, Guy I know not bothered about following SA rugby now because of the rules not becasue of the losses but because of too many players who aren't white full stop. Pretty shocked when I talked to him about it as he struck me as a normal guy before that.

It's not bias though. They're qualified and can't get work whether it be finance or international rugby. It's biased against them, if that's what you were getting at. I don't know the guy you're on about but maybe his point was that the white players in SA are better players than some in the current SA set-up and he wouldn't be alone in believing that I'm sure.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:35 am

It's not ideal to use posiitive discrimination but given the state SA continues to be, I think it has to be done now rather than just ignore the attitudes around whites being naturally better. There are past threads dedicated to this though rather than the Welsh match thread.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just a convenient excuse I'm afraid. These changes will bring about some good change, but for some peoples views it will result in a team they're not prepared to follow any longer.

I'd like to see a team like England play a team of players who are say 3-4 inches shorter than usual and see how they perform.

You can call it an excuse... but if you can't even acknowledge height is a major factor in the game.

In terms of Englands squad for the AIs out of 35 players there where only 5 who were shorter than 6ft and 2 shorter than the national average.  5 out of 35 (14%) and only 6% smaller than the average bloke on the street (both halfbacks in those cases).

a game for all sizes right? Maybe in the amateur days, not in professional modern test rugby.

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