6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 06 Feb 2017, 11:56 am

First topic message reminder :

6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 7 France10 6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 7 Scot_f10     
FRANCE v SCOTLAND
12 February 2017
16:00 CET (UTC+1)
Stade de France, Paris

Referee: Jaco Peyper (RSA)
Touch judges: John Lacey (IRE) & Luke Pearce (ENG)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (IRE)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

90 Played 90
52 Won 35
3 Drawn 3
35 Lost 52
1,280 Points 1,102

B. Recent Form

13 March 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
29 – 18 to Scotland

5 September 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
19 – 16 to France

7 February 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
15 – 8 to France

8 March 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
17 – 19 to France

16 March 2013
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
23 – 16 to France

26 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
17 – 23 to France

C. Teams

FRANCE 
6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 7 Gerard10
15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado, 3-Uini Atonio, (captain), 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Loann Goujon, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles,

Replacements: 16-Christopher Tolofua, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Julian Le Devedec, 20-Damien Chouly, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean-Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget

SCOTLAND
6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 7 Gregor10
15-Stuart Hogg, 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Tommy Seymour, 12-Huw Jones, 11-Alex Dunbar, 10-Finn Russell, 9-Greig Laidlaw; 1-Allan Dell, 2-Fraser Brown, 3-Zander Fagerson, 4-Richie Gray, 5-Jonny Gray, 6-John Barclay, 7-Josh Strauss, 8- Hamish Watson.

Replacements: 16-Ross Ford, 17-Gordon Reid, 18-Simon Berghan, 19-Tim Swinson, 20-John Hardie, 21-Alistair Price, 22-Duncan Weir, 23-Mark Bennett.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 6:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Rugbystreamus on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:09 pm

Result please ....

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Post by R!skysports on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:14 am

Well that was a bit of a mess

To start with the ref was aweful, and let some many things go and pulled up wrong things time and time again - made the game so scrappy and almost ruined it from a viewing POV

HOWEVER - that was not the reason we lost - the French deserved the win and were the overall more dominant team - so well played them

Our negatives

Scrum - worried about this before and it was almost school playground bad. - Yes, we have very young props, but that was embarassing

Game plan - What were we trying. To out muscle them> No guile at all

Russel - not his best game. Not quite as bad as some make out, but certainly tried to hard - yes some of the kicks did not work, but the bash bash bash was not getting us far, so I like he tries things.

Handling - this game reminded me of the bad old days of Scotland not being able to hold onto the ball - the amount of times I shouted Tits for hands before remembering I am in the pub not at home


Good - Thought Strauss had a good game

Out scored them on tries

I drank too much


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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:19 am

Was unable to watch the game, so relying on word of mouth and media reports suggesting:

1) That due to set-piece domination France were quite comfortable in a way not reflected by teh scoreline. Fair comment?
2) France had no real spark about them (does that contradict 1). Again Fair comment?
3) Scottish set piece was woeful - does that just mean the scrum?
4) Scotland were taking some brutal hits - legal or not?


And finally, wtf happened with Russell's conversion attempt?

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Post by cakeordeath on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:38 am

LondonTiger wrote:Was unable to watch the game, so relying on word of mouth and media reports suggesting:

1) That due to set-piece domination France were quite comfortable in a way not reflected by teh scoreline. Fair comment?
2) France had no real spark about them (does that contradict 1). Again Fair comment?
3) Scottish set piece was woeful - does that just mean the scrum?
4) Scotland were taking some brutal hits - legal or not?


And finally, wtf happened with Russell's conversion attempt?

1) France were dominant in the scrum, but it was a scrappy game from both sides and one Scotland could have won. Scoreline seemed to represent the game closely enough
2) See point above, I think they were a bit disorganized, but played some good rugby, were dangerous in the loose making some nice off-loads
3) Yes, they completely manshamed us
4) It was a hard game, I didn't see anything illegal in the contact, however my only gripe would be the breakdown. Where the French were off their feet sealing off...all the time.

Nathan Hines came running on with the tee and told Russell to take it quickly, some people blamed the ref, but it was Hines. I think he was worried the TMO would want to look at the pass leading up the try. (which wasn't forward BTW)

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Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:53 am

the level of expectation with Scotland now is that we are disappointed with a close defeat to France in Paris, that certainly says something.

I watched it late last night when I got home from work and it was a hum dinger of a game. We could have won, but I am not going to say we should have.

The scrums were a big problem, no use pretending otherwise. A lot of work required there. Still Berghan got on and is now capped, he did not do so badly and gives us some more options. We don't need to rely on Zander for the full 80 mins. We have now played the 2 best scrimmaging teams in the competition, so things should get better.

Losing Laidlaw was a blow, but Ali Price got his chance but silly penalty aside when he was pumped up at the start, played well. I doubt that Laidlaw will be back for Wales, so we will see him start next time. He will only get better for the experience. We have been a bit to reliant on Greg for a while now and do need some more options.

Finn Russell did not play as badly as some are making out. He made the second try remember. He tried things that did not come off, but he had to. I don't think the missed conversion was his fault, he was definitely given the hurry up by Nathan Hines. At the end of the day it was academic in any case.

It is impossible to fault the effort of any of the players, they all left everything out there. You have got to single out Josh Strauss though, who went the whole 80 mins and was still driving himself into contact at the end. That was his best game for Scotland by a long way.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:59 am

Well before the game I was thinking that it wouldn't mean that we would be back to square one if we lost, yet I can't help but feel bitterly disappointed with that performances.  Maybe that's a sign of the higher expectations that I now have of this bunch of players?

Yes we showed great courage and determination but that is the very minimum you should expect from a team playing for their country.  We were missing one very vital ingredient however:

Brains.

Obviously it didn't help losing your captain, vice captain, then your vice captain's replacement within 41 minutes but we played like headless chickens at times. I think the performance showed that we're not ready to jettison Laidlaw quite yet.

A big part of the headless chicken performance came from Russell, who had one of his worst games in a Scotland shirt.  THAT conversion (if he was rushing why not just drop goal it? Even his drop goals aren't that bad!), the kickoff straight into touch which is unforgivable at this level, 3 or 4 grubbers that bounced straight off the French, a charge down kick, France getting a penalty because he shoveled Sh*t as we call it - forcing a pass that was never on that put players under pressure.

We were very much lacking leadership too - I couldn't even tell you who took over from Barclay because there was no sign of anyone stepping up and taking control.  I think we made some poor penalty decisions - Hogg's kick at goal had a slim chance of going over and it was at a time that we desperately needing territory and possession.  IMO we should have kicked to the corner to try and get some concerted territory in their half.

I think VC has to shoulder some of the blame for his selections too - yes he couldn't have foreseen that many injuries but almost everyone on here expressed concerns about our lack of physicality across the squad and the lightweight impact off the bench.  We desperately needed a big lump like CDP or Bradbury coming off the bench and the selection of Weir and Bennett just gave us nothing.  Dunbar put in a heroic shift but he was clearly struggling - Matt Scott would have been a perfect substitution to have.


The good:

Josh Strauss - his best game in a Scotland shirt, he was heroic.
Dunbar - a defencive rock and one of the few who could take and dish out punishment
Seymour - looked electric on the wing
Richie Gray - one of our best players and outshone his brother, who had a quiet game

The bad:

Finn Russell
The scrums
Our control of the game

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Post by Allty on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:03 am

[quote="cakeordeath"][quote="LondonTiger"]Was unable to watch the game, so relying on word of mouth and media reports suggesting:


Nathan Hines came running on with the tee and told Russell to take it quickly, some people blamed the ref, but it was Hines. I think he was worried the TMO would want to look at the pass leading up the try. (which wasn't forward BTW)[/quote]

I hadnt thought of that........ but it makes sense

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Post by highland_scot on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:23 am

cakeordeath wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Was unable to watch the game, so relying on word of mouth and media reports suggesting:

1) That due to set-piece domination France were quite comfortable in a way not reflected by teh scoreline. Fair comment?
2) France had no real spark about them (does that contradict 1). Again Fair comment?
3) Scottish set piece was woeful - does that just mean the scrum?
4) Scotland were taking some brutal hits - legal or not?


And finally, wtf happened with Russell's conversion attempt?

1) France were dominant in the scrum, but it was a scrappy game from both sides and one Scotland could have won. Scoreline seemed to represent the game closely enough
2) See point above, I think they were a bit disorganized, but played some good rugby, were dangerous in the loose making some nice off-loads
3) Yes, they completely manshamed us
4) It was a hard game, I didn't see anything illegal in the contact, however my only gripe would be the breakdown. Where the French were off their feet sealing off...all the time.

Nathan Hines came running on with the tee and told Russell to take it quickly, some people blamed the ref, but it was Hines. I think he was worried the TMO would want to look at the pass leading up the try. (which wasn't forward BTW)

I thought it was maybe actually Seymour's take of his chip ahead - had he given Spedding a bit of a shove?

That said, if there was a rush Russell could surely have dropped it over. Or even just swung a boot at it without a run up... I even used to be able to score those when I was 13. I was NOT a talented player in the slightest!

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:42 am

Seymour did give Spedding a shove to get to the bouncing ball first. Thats why Hines gave Finn the Hurry up!

Can't blame Hines as you can see why he was doing it

Can't blame Russell because when Big Wagga tells you to do something, you do it!

The ball fell off the tee just as Finn was about to kick it! Happens sometimes!

The part I'm still really angry about is Russell's total lack of game management! He goes out onto the field with an attitude that he is undroppable and everything needs to go through him! He tries silly grubbers the bounce off the opposition or aimless kicks over the drop or big miss passes that bounce along the floor! Sometimes he needs to just accept that there is nothing on and to pop the ball to Dunbar to bosh it up the middle and get the forwards to rumble about for a couple of phases!

He needs to trust the rest of the team to their part! He's not out there just to get the ball to Seymour or Hogg, He's there to orchestrate the plays of a whole team!
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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:47 am

There was absolutely nothing in the Seymour push IMO - it would have been incredibly harsh if that had led to the try being ruled out.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:51 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:There was absolutely nothing in the Seymour push IMO - it would have been incredibly harsh if that had led to the try being ruled out.

True, but you can see why Hines would not want to leave that to chance, you never really know which way a TMO will go in a situation like that. They always look worse in slow mo.

No point dwelling on it really, it did not cost us the match. Time to move on.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:52 am

tigertattie wrote:Seymour did give Spedding a shove to get to the bouncing ball first. Thats why Hines gave Finn the Hurry up!

Can't blame Hines as you can see why he was doing it

Can't blame Russell because when Big Wagga tells you to do something, you do it!

The ball fell off the tee just as Finn was about to kick it! Happens sometimes!

The part I'm still really angry about is Russell's total lack of game management! He goes out onto the field with an attitude that he is undroppable and everything needs to go through him! He tries silly grubbers the bounce off the opposition or aimless kicks over the drop or big miss passes that bounce along the floor! Sometimes he needs to just accept that there is nothing on and to pop the ball to Dunbar to bosh it up the middle and get the forwards to rumble about for a couple of phases!

He needs to trust the rest of the team to their part! He's not out there just to get the ball to Seymour or Hogg, He's there to orchestrate the plays of a whole team!

It fell off because he rushed it and didn't ensure it was on properly - again a lack of control and composure which was evident in the whole team across the board.

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Post by rodders on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:56 am

Superb game, well done both sides.

Scotland very unfortunate to lose but hey ho they got lucky last week so what can you you do Smile
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Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:01 am

There is a lot of Finn bashing going on here.

FR is what he is, a bit of a maverick and I don't think that will ever change and I am not sure I would want it to. He will make some mistakes but he will also get us some tries and will tie in all the opposition players who are marking him. I really don't think you can stifle a player like that. If there was a better controlling FH available you might have that debate, but there is not.

The same debate raged around Toonie all those years ago and he was eventually shunted out to centre and Hodge played FH. I am still not convinced that did Scotland any favours and it has taken us best part of 20 years to get back into an attacking mindset.

I will settle for FR anyday, watching Scotland will never be dull and we do win some games. It is probably fair to say he is not the finished article yet either.

When we have other decent options, we can have the debate, at the moment we don't!

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:10 am

BigGee wrote:There is a lot of Finn bashing going on here.

FR is what he is, a bit of a maverick and I don't think that will ever change and I am not sure I would want it to. He will make some mistakes but he will also get us some tries and will tie in all the opposition players who are marking him. I really don't think you can stifle a player like that. If there was a better controlling FH available you might have that debate, but there is not.

The same debate raged around Toonie all those years ago and he was eventually shunted out to centre and Hodge played FH. I am still not convinced that did Scotland any favours and it has taken us best part of 20 years to get back into an attacking mindset.

I will settle for FR anyday, watching Scotland will never be dull and we do win some games. It is probably fair to say he is not the finished article yet either.

When we have other decent options, we can have the debate, at the moment we don't!

I know what you mean Biggee - we don't really have any other options but it was getting to the point that I was actually wanting him to get subbed off for Weir so we could try and get some control back in the game!

I would also pick Russell any time but he's got to try and improve on his consistency and decision making - we can't keep forgiving him because 'that's just the way he is' - he could be a top international player but he'll never get there if he keeps kicking restarts out on the full (this isn't exactly his first offense remember) and forcing things that are never on.

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Post by highland_scot on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:15 am

Overall the result was a fair reflection.

If we'd manshamed France up front like they did to us, and lost, then we would quite rightly be spitting feathers - and bemoaning the Gibbon's TMO decision to deny what looked like a perfectly good try.

Scotland seemed to get the tactics and the bench a bit wrong - lots of one out passing, which the French were picking off far too easily, and we were going to the backs with slow messy ball. By keeping it so close we never really made them have to move around and scramble to wear them out. Finn's flusteredness was symptomatic of this, it's hard to look like a world class 10 when you're having to tidy up all the time. Laidlaw would generally have helped to set up "good" ball - though Price did well when he was on, keeping the tempo up but that included times when it wasn't on. He also box kicked well. Finn had the right idea with his occasional chips, Lamerat was up in defence extremely quickly leaving gaps, but the execution wasn't quite there.

Worrying amount of injuries in that game - especially head injuries. How were there so many?! Were we terrible at positioning in the tackle? Were the French ruthless going into contact? Lots to think about before Wales but looks like we'll be missing most of our back row as well as the first choice props.

No idea how to deal with the scrum - the opposition's scrum is just clearly stronger. What can you do about that? We've gone back to the days when dropping the ball means a scrum penalty and a line-out 40m up the pitch, rather than the team being told to "use it" when the ball is at the back. Particularly odd when Peyper told the Scottish pack to "engage harder". Not sure that's really viable when the other guy is so much more powerful! At what point should the opposition "engage harder" rather than the other team stop putting the shove on before the ball is in? Interesting though that when we've had opposition scrums at the 5m line and they are trying to push straight, we've held firm. Plenty of scrum shenanigans there I feel - having minimal understanding of how scrums work...

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:20 am

highland_scot wrote:

No idea how to deal with the scrum - the opposition's scrum is just clearly stronger. What can you do about that? We've gone back to the days when dropping the ball means a scrum penalty and a line-out 40m up the pitch, rather than the team being told to "use it" when the ball is at the back. Particularly odd when Peyper told the Scottish pack to "engage harder". Not sure that's really viable when the other guy is so much more powerful! At what point should the opposition "engage harder" rather than the other team stop putting the shove on before the ball is in? Interesting though that when we've had opposition scrums at the 5m line and they are trying to push straight, we've held firm. Plenty of scrum shenanigans there I feel - having minimal understanding of how scrums work...

There is no doubting they were clearly on top but the downside of that was that the ref gave them a penalty every single time, regardless of whose fault the collapse was. There were a few times that to me the French loosehead dropped first and straight away he gave them the penalty. As you say there were no doubt plenty shenanigans, and when the French wanted the scrum to stay up (i.e. on our line) it was stable and didn't collapse.

As you say there's not much we can do about it given that we are just weaker! The Welsh scrum could cause us problems too so we've got 2 weeks to try and come up with a solution.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:28 am

Russell in my opinion is like jekyll and hyde. Capable of real excellence but just lacks composure and reliability at times. Not many players can make the pass he did for your 2nd try but then again not many would miss a conversion in front of the posts.

If he could just cut out the stupid errors like being charged down and knocking the ball out on the full, he could really challenge for Lions 10.

He's been at the heart of the good stuff for Scotland but then again he also has put you under needless pressure.

Also Scotland's errors led to French scrums which the French lapped up.

France were smart in the sense that they turned the scrum into a much more significant weapon than Ireland did.

Of course I am biased but I've been very pleased with Maitland. He's been Mr Reliable. He's not been picking up the headlines but he's been clearing up other players' mess, been catching the ball well and just generally been helping out.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:29 am

Yeah really enjoyable.

Think Russell criticism is harsh. The ball fell as he kicked it and the ref asked him to hurry up. Bad luck. Thought he was good enough.




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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:30 am

beshocked wrote:Russell in my opinion is like jekyll and hyde. Capable of real excellence but just lacks composure and reliability at times. Not many players can make the pass he did for your 2nd try but then again not many would miss a conversion in front of the posts.

If he could just cut out the stupid errors like being charged down and knocking the ball out on the full, he could really challenge for Lions 10.

He's been at the heart of the good stuff for Scotland but then again he also has put you under needless pressure.

Also Scotland's errors led to French scrums which the French lapped up.

France were smart in the sense that they turned the scrum into a much more significant weapon than Ireland did.

Of course I am biased but I've been very pleased with Maitland. He's been Mr Reliable. He's not been picking up the headlines but he's been clearing up other players' mess, been catching the ball well and just generally been helping out.

How do you turn the scrum into a weapon when there are no scrums? In the 2nd half Ireland v Scotland there were only two scrums.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:30 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Think Russell criticism is harsh.
No it's not. He missed a conversion in front of the posts (among other mistakes - i.e. just before choosing to try a grubber and having it charged down because it wasn't on).

You can hurry up by taking 5 seconds not 0.5.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:32 am

I think the SRU need to hire Chris Paterson to bring the kicking tee on - Nathan Hines is obviously just too slow!

If he could take the kicks too that would be great OK

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:34 am

Scottrf wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Think Russell criticism is harsh.
No it's not. He missed a conversion in front of the posts (among other mistakes - i.e. just before choosing to try a grubber and having it charged down because it wasn't on).

You can hurry up by taking 5 seconds not 0.5.

The ball fell off the tee. Id like to see you do better.

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Post by cakeordeath on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:34 am

rodders wrote:Superb game, well done both sides.

Scotland very unfortunate to lose but hey ho they got lucky last week so what can you you do Smile

I don't understand. They got lucky because they scored more points than the opposition? In which case Ireland and England must have been lucky in round 2

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:37 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Think Russell criticism is harsh.
No it's not. He missed a conversion in front of the posts (among other mistakes - i.e. just before choosing to try a grubber and having it charged down because it wasn't on).

You can hurry up by taking 5 seconds not 0.5.

The ball fell off the tee. Id like to see you do better.

As I said earlier it fell off the tee because he rushed it and didn't check it was on properly - something that literally would have taken a few extra seconds to do. It wasn't a freak gust of wind that did it, it wasn't uneven ground, it was him rushing and not putting it on properly.

Which again is systematic of the team as a whole - a real lack of control and composure.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:39 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The ball fell off the tee. Id like to see you do better.
I could. But it's a pretty low standard to expect from an international fly half. To compete with a random forum user.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:39 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Russell in my opinion is like jekyll and hyde. Capable of real excellence but just lacks composure and reliability at times. Not many players can make the pass he did for your 2nd try but then again not many would miss a conversion in front of the posts.

If he could just cut out the stupid errors like being charged down and knocking the ball out on the full, he could really challenge for Lions 10.

He's been at the heart of the good stuff for Scotland but then again he also has put you under needless pressure.

Also Scotland's errors led to French scrums which the French lapped up.

France were smart in the sense that they turned the scrum into a much more significant weapon than Ireland did.

Of course I am biased but I've been very pleased with Maitland. He's been Mr Reliable. He's not been picking up the headlines but he's been clearing up other players' mess, been catching the ball well and just generally been helping out.

How do you turn the scrum into a weapon when there are no scrums? In the 2nd half Ireland v Scotland there were only two scrums.

gunsgerms well you can force the opposition to knock the ball on. When the opportunity presents itself you take a scrum.

Perhaps Ireland's opportunities to do so were less but France successfully exploited a Scottish weakness and time and again it helped France.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:47 am

Ali Price had a shocker. Giving away that penalty and taking silly tap and goes at every oppertunity. Territory eluded us all game and Ali Price was a big factor in that. He was trying to be so much unlike Laidlaw he forgot what makes Laidlaw so good in the first place, control and game management.

That leads nicely onto Russel, who's game management was non existent. Yeah he's a maverick, but if I was one of the Scottish forwards I'd be quite angry with him. Every carry and collision was a battle and Russel IMO gave the ball away a little to easily and often too stupidly.

The "get me a freak" mentality of the top14 though has made French rugby a horrifying abomination, and the fragmented nature of the last quarter meant Scotland couldn't test their CV enough to be effective.

I'm pretty disappointed, and I'll be even more disappointed if Laidlaw doesn't recover.
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Post by highland_scot on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:49 am

Also - WTF are we doing persisting in giving Hogg those 50m+ penalties?

His success rate on them must be about 20%? Far better to go for the corner I'd have thought... Or let Bennett take them (if he's on) - he seems to have more accuracy from long range, though maybe his knees don't take it well, as he hasn't taken one in ages.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:51 am

highland_scot wrote:Also - WTF are we doing persisting in giving Hogg those 50m+ penalties?

His success rate on them must be about 20%? Far better to go for the corner I'd have thought... Or let Bennett take them (if he's on) - he seems to have more accuracy from long range, though maybe his knees don't take it well, as he hasn't taken one in ages.

Agree 100%. He has got a few recently but there was a period of time when he must have missed 5 or 6 in a row.

I can maybe understand early in a game when you might as well have a go, but we desperately needed territory at that time and a kick to the corner was the correct decision.

He's the Robert Carlos of the rugby world - 1 in every 20 kicks actually hits the target!

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Post by MacKnocked-on on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:53 am

The scrums were a shambles but not helped by us generally putting the ball in far straighter than the French were, why can't the refs sort that one simple thing out?
I think tactically we were not good yesterday, the time Hogg went for the penalty goal from half way was really calling out of a kick to the corner and attempt to score a try from there. In the second half we seemed to be back to the old days of plugging away without looking particularly dangerous unfortunately.
Massive effort from Strauss, Watson and Dunbar particularly.

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Post by R!skysports on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:06 am

Come on guys

This is bordering on a witch hunt

He had a poor game (after several good ones) - when under the most ridiculous amount of pressure. I do not think many 10s would have done much better under the amount of backwards ball we were getting. He had to try stuff as the French were up in their face (Mostly from off side positions), immediately

The ball fell off twice I think (I may be wrong there) and as it was a conversation and he had started his run up - (and was very close in), he had no time to pick up and drop it - the French were running out

He kicked one out on the full - which is bad. But you know what every 10 does that on occasion - he did it ONCE f F S

Our ability to talk down our players is a little bit depressing

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:35 am

I'm not giving Russel grief. For the record he is the most talented fly half Scotland has produced in about 20 years.

The massive elephant in the room is his game management. He is only 24, but with 24 caps under his belt I really would have expected him to manage the game better by now. It's something that might allude him for the rest of his life like Townsend which isn't always a bad thing.

But think of Sexton at that age, or better look at Farrell right now. Farrell has none of Russell's flakiness. Or better still look at Beauden Barrett.

Decision making is a key part of a flyhalf's job, especially in games as tight as the one on Sunday. I'm not saying Farrell or Barrett don't make mistakes, but Russell I think is guilty of trying to force stuff that clearly isn't on. His Conversion was a key moment in the match and he should have just taken all the time he needed instead of allowing himself to be flustered.

Is Russell too dependent on Laidlaw when it comes to managing international test matches?
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Post by bsando on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

Well from reading all of your comments on here it's clear it was an error strewn game that lacked the leadership and control that Laidlaw provides. A fantastic game none the less but Scotland should and could of been smarter. Last weeks performance was a mature performance, this week we went back to high school. The positive thing is it is a very fixable problem unlike previous 6N where Scotland would go from one extreme to another, ie awful lineouts one game, awful restarts another game etc

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:41 am

bsando wrote:Well from reading all of your comments on here it's clear it was an error strewn game that lacked the leadership and control that Laidlaw provides. A fantastic game none the less but Scotland should and could of been smarter. Last weeks performance was a mature performance, this week we went back to high school. The positive thing is it is a very fixable problem unlike previous 6N where Scotland would go from one extreme to another, ie awful lineouts one game, awful restarts another game etc

That's every game - it is a Scottish specialty! Sad

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:53 am

It's not a witch hunt but I think many are now seeing that Finn Russell isn't as great as many have painted him to be!

yes he is the best 10 Scotland have had in 20 years but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement! Many have been touting him as a Lion but I've said all season that he's at least 4th down on the list of potential lions 10s.

What will happen now is for Russell to grow as a player after this game. If he comes out against Wales and continues to kick grubbers off his opponents shins or throws wild passes when they are not on, then he'll show that he hasn't learned and isn't developing as a player.

Finn has the ability to be a great 10. Good hands, good footwork and natural ability. He needs to work on his kicking game but he also needs to know his limitations. He needs to trust the players around him and not try to take the glory for himself. If he's faced with a defensive line blitzing up at him and there's nothing on, don't try the wee grubber or attempt a wild pass to the wing. Just pop the ball to a supporting player to crash up and start a new phase. When something is on, use the skillset he has to exploit it, don't try to force things all the time
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Post by R!skysports on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:20 pm

tigertattie wrote:It's not a witch hunt but I think many are now seeing that Finn Russell isn't as great as many have painted him to be!

yes he is the best 10 Scotland have had in 20 years but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement! Many have been touting him as a Lion but I've said all season that he's at least 4th down on the list of potential lions 10s.

What will happen now is for Russell to grow as a player after this game.  If he comes out against Wales and continues to kick grubbers off his opponents shins or throws wild passes when they are not on, then he'll show that he hasn't learned and isn't developing as a player.

Finn has the ability to be a great 10. Good hands, good footwork and natural ability. He needs to work on his kicking game but he also needs to know his limitations. He needs to trust the players around him and not try to take the glory for himself. If he's faced with a defensive line blitzing up at him and there's nothing on, don't try the wee grubber or attempt a wild pass to the wing. Just pop the ball to a supporting player to crash up and start a new phase. When something is on, use the skillset he has to exploit it, don't try to force things all the time

I am not sure many fans have painted him as the next player from Ayr :-)

I think most people I have heard from think he is pushing for a place on the plane - just pushing

But we like to highlighted any weakness in our players beyond anyone else, so I should expect that to continue


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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:23 pm

I thought Scotland did ok yesterday. We weren't as sharp as we were against Ireland and I do think the injuries really hurt us. At 16-16 (which should have been 18-16) with 20 minutes to play we really should have been able to empty the bench at that point and push on. France did really well at slowing things down and playing in short bursts, rather than long lung busting periods of play which would have favoured us. Ali Price tried to speed things up at every opportunity, but it was hard to do that with our set piece struggling under that sort of power.

I thought Strauss played really well, and looks to have nailed down the 8 jersey. The back three also did well with the ball they had. We certainly deserved the LBP, but there is a sense of what could have been. Still, this season has been a marked improvement on what has come before it!

(Sorry to have been away from 606v2 for a while. Norovirus/work travel....)

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:23 pm

I should have also added that restarts were once again a complete and total shambles. If Toonie can fix one thing.....

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:24 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I thought Scotland did ok yesterday. We weren't as sharp as we were against Ireland and I do think the injuries really hurt us. At 16-16 (which should have been 18-16) with 20 minutes to play we really should have been able to empty the bench at that point and push on. France did really well at slowing things down and playing in short bursts, rather than long lung busting periods of play which would have favoured us. Ali Price tried to speed things up at every opportunity, but it was hard to do that with our set piece struggling under that sort of power.

I thought Strauss played really well, and looks to have nailed down the 8 jersey. The back three also did well with the ball they had. We certainly deserved the LBP, but there is a sense of what could have been. Still, this season has been a marked improvement on what has come before it!

(Sorry to have been away from 606v2 for a while. Norovirus/work travel....)

There's really no need to apologies...you weren't missed! Very Happy

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Post by cakeordeath on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:32 pm

The medical update this morning makes for grim reading. Barcaly, Brown, Hardie and Dunbar are all going through HIA. Strauss has injured hit "flank". Grieg has buggered his ankle.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:34 pm

cakeordeath wrote:The medical update this morning makes for grim reading. Barcaly, Brown, Hardie and Dunbar are all going through HIA. Strauss has injured hit "flank". Grieg has buggered his ankle.

The usual casualties after a game against the French. I hope Ireland have a put-outable team for the final two games after our next one with those French boys.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:35 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I thought Scotland did ok yesterday. We weren't as sharp as we were against Ireland and I do think the injuries really hurt us. At 16-16 (which should have been 18-16) with 20 minutes to play we really should have been able to empty the bench at that point and push on. France did really well at slowing things down and playing in short bursts, rather than long lung busting periods of play which would have favoured us. Ali Price tried to speed things up at every opportunity, but it was hard to do that with our set piece struggling under that sort of power.

I thought Strauss played really well, and looks to have nailed down the 8 jersey. The back three also did well with the ball they had. We certainly deserved the LBP, but there is a sense of what could have been. Still, this season has been a marked improvement on what has come before it!

(Sorry to have been away from 606v2 for a while. Norovirus/work travel....)

There's really no need to apologies...you weren't missed! Very Happy

Awww, you don't mean that. Whilst I was ill I was going to post that I thought Wilson played well against Ireland, but I couldn't bring myself to do it....

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Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:36 pm

Scotland didn't lose just because of Russell IMO.

You got munched at scrum time and physically were overpowered in the pack. France's bruising style took it's toll and the injury count for Scotland was high.

Russell can't scrummage so I am not sure he could help there.

Obviously to get the best out of him he needed a good platform and the Scottish pack for the most part failed.

Russell did his best to create and his pass helped set up the 2nd try so his contribution wasn't that bad in my opinion.

Sure he made some bad mistakes but the Scottish pack didn't do enough in my opinion.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:37 pm

That's something I forgot to mention - why did VC leave Ford on the bench so long, especially given the extra stability he provides to the scrums?

At one point I thought it would have been a good idea to move Brown to the backrow and bring Ford on

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's something I forgot to mention - why did VC leave Ford on the bench so long, especially given the extra stability he provides to the scrums?

At one point I thought it would have been a good idea to move Brown to the backrow and bring Ford on

Coaches always seem to over-wait. But then, if they replace too early that can be another nail in their coffin as they'll get accused on unnecessarily disrupting the shape of a fighting side. They're damned both ways.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:That's something I forgot to mention - why did VC leave Ford on the bench so long, especially given the extra stability he provides to the scrums?

At one point I thought it would have been a good idea to move Brown to the backrow and bring Ford on

Coaches always seem to over-wait.  But then, if they replace too early that can be another nail in their coffin as they'll get accused on unnecessarily disrupting the shape of a fighting side.  They're damned both ways.

It stood out for me because it is inconsistent with what he usually does - Ford was brought on at 67 minutes (and only then because Brown got a head knock) whereas in the past Cotter tends to bring his hooker sub on around 50-60 minutes.

It was also strange because we were getting a physical battering - especially in the scrums - and Ford would have helped in both regards.

He was maybe holding on in case more players got injured!

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Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:04 pm

The injury updates suggests we took a battering and there is no way they will all be back for the next game against Wales.

Still injuries are part and parcel of the competition and we will have to adapt.

I can't see Laidlaw being back and he will be missed. Still we can't always rely on him and Price deserves his chance, he is never going to become an international class SH without getting the game time. It may mean a change of captaincy and style but will just have to do that.

Hardie took a hell of a knock and looked really groggy going off, not his first either, so I imagine he will be out for a good few weeks. Strauss has a week off now, so hopefully will make it back, but it is not entirely clear if it is his head or his shoulder that is the main concern for John Barclay, he certainly was not carrying his shoulder well when you saw him on the pitch after the game.

Back row might be an issue then, but we have Wilson to come back, possibly Harley to come in or CDP or Denton, who is playing again, but looked a bit off the pace still when I watched that match. He probably needs a bit more time.

If Dunbar not fit, then Taylor or Scott come in, luckily we are not badly off for centres just now. If Brown does not make it, then we have Ford and McInally.

So in short, we will cover those injuries reasonably well and hopefully at least some of them will make it back in any case. I am glad we are not playing next weekend. Talk of compressing the whole tournament into 5 weeks, when you see the sheer physicality of games like that, are utter madness!

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Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:11 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:That's something I forgot to mention - why did VC leave Ford on the bench so long, especially given the extra stability he provides to the scrums?

At one point I thought it would have been a good idea to move Brown to the backrow and bring Ford on

Coaches always seem to over-wait.  But then, if they replace too early that can be another nail in their coffin as they'll get accused on unnecessarily disrupting the shape of a fighting side.  They're damned both ways.

It stood out for me because it is inconsistent with what he usually does - Ford was brought on at 67 minutes (and only then because Brown got a head knock) whereas in the past Cotter tends to bring his hooker sub on around 50-60 minutes.

It was also strange because we were getting a physical battering - especially in the scrums - and Ford would have helped in both regards.

He was maybe holding on in case more players got injured!

I expect that was the case, until the point when he went off, Brown would have been covering the next back rower we were likely to lose. There was never any guarantee that Strauss would get through the whole game. All credit to him for doing so.

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Post by RDW on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:13 pm

BigGee wrote:The injury updates suggests we took a battering and there is no way they will all be back for the next game against Wales.

Still injuries are part and parcel of the competition and we will have to adapt.

I can't see Laidlaw being back and he will be missed. Still we can't always rely on him and Price deserves his chance, he is never going to become an international class SH without getting the game time. It may mean a change of captaincy and style but will just have to do that.

Hardie took a hell of a knock and looked really groggy going off, not his first either, so I imagine he will be out for a good few weeks. Strauss has a week off now, so hopefully will make it back, but it is not entirely clear if it is his head or his shoulder that is the main concern for John Barclay, he certainly was not carrying his shoulder well when you saw him on the pitch after the game.

Back row might be an issue then, but we have Wilson to come back, possibly Harley to come in or CDP or Denton, who is playing again, but looked a bit off the pace still when I watched that match. He probably needs a bit more time.

If Dunbar not fit, then Taylor or Scott come in, luckily we are not badly off for centres just now. If Brown does not make it, then we have Ford and McInally.

So in short, we will cover those injuries reasonably well and hopefully at least some of them will make it back in any case. I am glad we are not playing next weekend. Talk of compressing the whole tournament into 5 weeks, when you see the sheer physicality of games like that, are utter madness!

Assuming we lose all of them we may end up with

1 Dell
2 Ford
3 Fagerson
4 Gray
5 Gray
6 Wilson
7 Watson
8 CDP

9 Price
10 Russell
11 Seymour
12 Scott/Taylor
13 Jones
14 Maitland
15 Hogg

Subs - Reid, McInally, Berghan, Swinson, Harley/Bradbury, Pyrgos, Weir, Bennett

Not a complete disaster and a good chance for other players to put their hands up.

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