6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February

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Post by George Carlin on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:56 am

First topic message reminder :

6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 8 France10 6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 8 Scot_f10     
FRANCE v SCOTLAND
12 February 2017
16:00 CET (UTC+1)
Stade de France, Paris

Referee: Jaco Peyper (RSA)
Touch judges: John Lacey (IRE) & Luke Pearce (ENG)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (IRE)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

90 Played 90
52 Won 35
3 Drawn 3
35 Lost 52
1,280 Points 1,102

B. Recent Form

13 March 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
29 – 18 to Scotland

5 September 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
19 – 16 to France

7 February 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
15 – 8 to France

8 March 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
17 – 19 to France

16 March 2013
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
23 – 16 to France

26 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
17 – 23 to France

C. Teams

FRANCE 
6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 8 Gerard10
15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado, 3-Uini Atonio, (captain), 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Loann Goujon, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles,

Replacements: 16-Christopher Tolofua, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Julian Le Devedec, 20-Damien Chouly, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean-Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget

SCOTLAND
6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 8 Gregor10
15-Stuart Hogg, 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Tommy Seymour, 12-Huw Jones, 11-Alex Dunbar, 10-Finn Russell, 9-Greig Laidlaw; 1-Allan Dell, 2-Fraser Brown, 3-Zander Fagerson, 4-Richie Gray, 5-Jonny Gray, 6-John Barclay, 7-Josh Strauss, 8- Hamish Watson.

Replacements: 16-Ross Ford, 17-Gordon Reid, 18-Simon Berghan, 19-Tim Swinson, 20-John Hardie, 21-Alistair Price, 22-Duncan Weir, 23-Mark Bennett.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by sensisball on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:16 pm

For me, one quick way to improve the scrum would be to drop Berghan and bring Welsh onto the bench. Sunday was the first time i have seen the big New Zealander and he looks like an impressive physical specimen. Unfortunately looking the part doesn't necessarily translate into being able to do the job in the tight. Apart  from one scrum where France were correctly penalised for not driving straight, he looked under massive pressure where Chiocci had him on toast for the  rest.

Coaches can blabber on about scrummaging being a collective activity, because it clearly is but its how the props cope with the pressure at the contact that determines how  the "collective" fares. I remember a Scotland game in Paris when The Rev Murray was taken apart by Thomas Domingo  to the extent that Murray was pulling a stupid face every time he got pinged. Afterwards Andy Robinson went on to defend Murray and played the scrum is a collective card. In the next game at home against Wales, first scrum for Scotland, with the Rev starting again, we got driven off our own ball and 7 or 8 phases later Wales had scored a try.

Jon Welsh has been a major part of a dominant Newcastle scrum and has been giving the best loose-heads in England a tough time this season. In recent weeks he has also shown he can cut a mean line and chip a ball nicely over the the head of an on coming  defender ( something that Finn, on occasion, finds hard to execute!)

Welsh's exclusion by successive Scottish coaches, for club and country, is something that simply baffles me.
If Berghan remains i cant see VC having any trust in him for the Wales game, requiring Fagerson to put in another 80 minute shift as he did against Ireland, where he was almost out on his feet by full time.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:19 pm

Not a disaster at all. That's a pretty decent team all things considered. I do hope Strauss is back though, he was really impressive yesterday.

Dell has really struggled this tournament, against two admittedly powerful tightheads. Reid wasn't any better mind you.

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Post by des on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:20 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's something I forgot to mention - why did VC leave Ford on the bench so long, especially given the extra stability he provides to the scrums?

At one point I thought it would have been a good idea to move Brown to the backrow and bring Ford on
I was thinking exactly that.

Brown was superb in the back row during the world cup (USA game I think) and Ford has been playing his best rugby for years.

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Post by whocares on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:22 pm

SecretFly wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:The medical update this morning makes for grim reading. Barcaly, Brown, Hardie and Dunbar are all going through HIA. Strauss has injured hit "flank". Grieg has buggered his ankle.

The usual casualties after a game against the French.  I hope Ireland have a put-outable team for the final two games after our next one with those French boys.

you should really keep the likes of Murray, Sexton and CJ Stander for the last two games. no point of wasting their talent against France Smile

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:30 pm

whocares wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:The medical update this morning makes for grim reading. Barcaly, Brown, Hardie and Dunbar are all going through HIA. Strauss has injured hit "flank". Grieg has buggered his ankle.

The usual casualties after a game against the French.  I hope Ireland have a put-outable team for the final two games after our next one with those French boys.

you should really keep the likes of Murray, Sexton and CJ Stander for the last two games. no point of wasting their talent against France Smile

You laugh, whocares - but your point has real merit Wink  I wonder could we struggle through a home game against a re-pumped French team, with a bit of a second string selection, and still win.  Hmmmm chin   Is it worth the risk?

I think France will be stronger away (in Dublin) than at home.  I said before that I'm getting the impression they try too hard to 'entertain' their home crowd and play some very wild stuff in the process.  They'll be much more pragmatic and business-like against us.

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Post by whocares on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:42 pm

I think France had a lot of pressure to win this home game after losing 3 games in a row despite playing ok. that made them go back to the way they played a year ago (i.e. ugly, specially as far as the backs are concerned). lots of improvement are required in order to compete with Ireland. Even if that's just a second string Irish team (we did lose against Australia seconds after all so not sure we are worth to play against the ABs slayers Wink ).

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:47 pm

des wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:That's something I forgot to mention - why did VC leave Ford on the bench so long, especially given the extra stability he provides to the scrums?

At one point I thought it would have been a good idea to move Brown to the backrow and bring Ford on
I was thinking exactly that.

Brown was superb in the back row during the world cup (USA game I think) and Ford has been playing his best rugby for years.

Whilst Ford coming on could have made a difference, I thought the back row of Swinson, Watson and Strauss was actually going quite well. Swinson certainly handled himself well away from his usual position.

Brown was very busy around the park, but his handling let him down a couple of times. He should start against Wales though.

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Post by 123456789 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:57 pm

The fact is that regardless of Finn Russell Scotland lost the game in the scrum, you simply can not win a rugby game if everytime there is a scrum you're marching 50-70 metres down the pitch.
There was a point in the game when the play stopped because of injury when Scotland had France under the cosh in their own 22. Two players banged their heads and the ref gave a scrum, the scrum led to a penalty and France cleared their lines with no pressure and gained possession way up the pitch. Surely a more suitable restart would be a mark.
It seemed to me that Scotland's tactics were to stay within touch of the French until the 60-65th minute at which point the French fitness would fail them and they would simply part like the red sea. In reality Scotland's injury toll was such that they were unable to use the bench to take advantage of French fitness issues.

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Post by bsando on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:30 pm

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/scotland/france-failed-to-run-out-of-steam-against-scotland-1-4364882

Watson sums it up pretty well I think. Hasn't he been awesome for Scotland since his first cap!

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Post by highland_scot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:32 pm

123456789 wrote:The fact is that regardless of Finn Russell Scotland lost the game in the scrum, you simply can not win a rugby game if everytime there is a scrum you're marching 50-70 metres down the pitch.
There was a point in the game when the play stopped because of injury when Scotland had France under the cosh in their own 22. Two players banged their heads and the ref gave a scrum, the scrum led to a penalty and France cleared their lines with no pressure and gained possession way up the pitch. Surely a more suitable restart would be a mark.

It seemed to me that Scotland's tactics were to stay within touch of the French until the 60-65th minute at which point the French fitness would fail them and they would simply part like the red sea. In reality Scotland's injury toll was such that they were unable to use the bench to take advantage of French fitness issues.

Yes - I was fizzing at that point; how can you restart the game with something that is obviously going to result in a French penalty? That's when the scrum as a tool to restart the game is not really fair.

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Post by RDW on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:34 pm

highland_scot wrote:
123456789 wrote:The fact is that regardless of Finn Russell Scotland lost the game in the scrum, you simply can not win a rugby game if everytime there is a scrum you're marching 50-70 metres down the pitch.
There was a point in the game when the play stopped because of injury when Scotland had France under the cosh in their own 22. Two players banged their heads and the ref gave a scrum, the scrum led to a penalty and France cleared their lines with no pressure and gained possession way up the pitch. Surely a more suitable restart would be a mark.

It seemed to me that Scotland's tactics were to stay within touch of the French until the 60-65th minute at which point the French fitness would fail them and they would simply part like the red sea. In reality Scotland's injury toll was such that they were unable to use the bench to take advantage of French fitness issues.

Yes - I was fizzing at that point; how can you restart the game with something that is obviously going to result in a French penalty? That's when the scrum as a tool to restart the game is not really fair.

On a similar theme a weaker scrummaging team could lose 3 points for knocking the ball on - the punishment doesn't fit the crime! Alternatively you may even end up losing 3 points if the opposition knocks on which is even more ridiculous.

Scrums are a central part of our game though - if you don't have a good scrum you are going to struggle.

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Post by highland_scot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:48 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
highland_scot wrote:
123456789 wrote:The fact is that regardless of Finn Russell Scotland lost the game in the scrum, you simply can not win a rugby game if everytime there is a scrum you're marching 50-70 metres down the pitch.
There was a point in the game when the play stopped because of injury when Scotland had France under the cosh in their own 22. Two players banged their heads and the ref gave a scrum, the scrum led to a penalty and France cleared their lines with no pressure and gained possession way up the pitch. Surely a more suitable restart would be a mark.

It seemed to me that Scotland's tactics were to stay within touch of the French until the 60-65th minute at which point the French fitness would fail them and they would simply part like the red sea. In reality Scotland's injury toll was such that they were unable to use the bench to take advantage of French fitness issues.

Yes - I was fizzing at that point; how can you restart the game with something that is obviously going to result in a French penalty? That's when the scrum as a tool to restart the game is not really fair.

On a similar theme a weaker scrummaging team could lose 3 points for knocking the ball on - the punishment doesn't fit the crime! Alternatively you may even end up losing 3 points if the opposition knocks on which is even more ridiculous.

Scrums are a central part of our game though - if you don't have a good scrum you are going to struggle.

I was half expecting the French to "accidentally" knock the ball on every couple of phases, to shove us back and win a penalty, then repeat until we're playing with 13...

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:53 pm

Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!
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Post by RDW on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:58 pm

tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I don't see anyone suggesting that?

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:29 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I don't see anyone suggesting that?

Sensisball at the top of this page....

Do you even read what's posted on here? Whistle

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:32 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I don't see anyone suggesting that?

Sensisball at the top of this page....

Do you even read what's posted on here? Whistle

See these Admin folk! Bunch of wasters! Coming on here and trying to start fights rather than actually reading the posts!

Each time and Admin messes up, they should be forced to watch replays of the Hearts vs Hibs game
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Post by cascough on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:
whocares wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:The medical update this morning makes for grim reading. Barcaly, Brown, Hardie and Dunbar are all going through HIA. Strauss has injured hit "flank". Grieg has buggered his ankle.

The usual casualties after a game against the French.  I hope Ireland have a put-outable team for the final two games after our next one with those French boys.

you should really keep the likes of Murray, Sexton and CJ Stander for the last two games. no point of wasting their talent against France Smile

You laugh, whocares - but your point has real merit Wink  I wonder could we struggle through a home game against a re-pumped French team, with a bit of a second string selection, and still win.  Hmmmm chin   Is it worth the risk?

I think France will be stronger away (in Dublin) than at home.  I said before that I'm getting the impression they try too hard to 'entertain' their home crowd and play some very wild stuff in the process.  They'll be much more pragmatic and business-like against us.

You definitely could. France have been sh1te again this tournament. Don't let the close results fool you. England beat them by essentially being less sh1te than they were, and after their wonderful performance last week Scotland took a step backwards, I feel.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:49 pm

France have been fine. Strong up front and chucking it around pretty well.

England>Wales>France>Scotland>Ireland>Italy is what results suggest so far.

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:52 pm

Scottrf wrote:France have been fine. Strong up front and chucking it around pretty well.

England>Wales>France>Scotland>Ireland>Italy is what results suggest so far.

Oooft that's controversial

Personally I'd go for

England>Ireland>France>Scotland>Wales>Italy
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Post by Scottrf on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

tigertattie wrote:
Scottrf wrote:France have been fine. Strong up front and chucking it around pretty well.

England>Wales>France>Scotland>Ireland>Italy is what results suggest so far.

Oooft that's controversial

Personally I'd go for

England>Ireland>France>Scotland>Wales>Italy
Ireland lost to Scotland who lost to France. Wales have only lost to England although by a bigger result than France so maybe they should go third.

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Post by cascough on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:01 pm

Riskysports wrote:
tigertattie wrote:It's not a witch hunt but I think many are now seeing that Finn Russell isn't as great as many have painted him to be!

yes he is the best 10 Scotland have had in 20 years but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement! Many have been touting him as a Lion but I've said all season that he's at least 4th down on the list of potential lions 10s.

What will happen now is for Russell to grow as a player after this game.  If he comes out against Wales and continues to kick grubbers off his opponents shins or throws wild passes when they are not on, then he'll show that he hasn't learned and isn't developing as a player.

Finn has the ability to be a great 10. Good hands, good footwork and natural ability. He needs to work on his kicking game but he also needs to know his limitations. He needs to trust the players around him and not try to take the glory for himself. If he's faced with a defensive line blitzing up at him and there's nothing on, don't try the wee grubber or attempt a wild pass to the wing. Just pop the ball to a supporting player to crash up and start a new phase. When something is on, use the skillset he has to exploit it, don't try to force things all the time

I am not sure many fans have painted him as the next player from Ayr :-)

I think most people I have heard from think he is pushing for a place on the plane - just pushing

But we like to highlighted any weakness in our players beyond anyone else, so I should expect that to continue


There's been a fair bit of people naming him in their test teams on other threads to be fair.

At best this is romantic, at worst laughable.

I say these things and get pilloried for being anti Finn Russell, which just isn't the case at all. People have made some valid points, he's only young, he's still learning and gaining experience. And that's fine, for Scotland. You're a team that has some exciting players and you're building and have great optimism.

But we are talking about the Lions here. this is the ultimate test. And the lions are going to play what is possibly the greatest test side in history. Russell is so far off being ready for that it's untrue.

I wonder if all these people who have him in their teams or even squads would make the call if it was their head on the block? That romanticism would evaporate pretty quickly I'd bet!

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:03 pm

I'll have a go.
England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France, Italy.

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Post by R!skysports on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:16 pm

I'll have a go too.


Scotland, the rest



This is thread on which countries I care about? angel


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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:22 pm

tigertattie wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I don't see anyone suggesting that?

Sensisball at the top of this page....

Do you even read what's posted on here? Whistle

See these Admin folk! Bunch of wasters! Coming on here and trying to start fights rather than actually reading the posts!

Each time and Admin messes up, they should be forced to watch replays of the Hearts vs Hibs game

That's harsh, plus you'd need to replicate the sub-zero temperatures which accompanied that particular snooze-fest.

I once travelled from London to Liverpool to watch Everton vs Newcastle. From recollection Newcastle won 1-0 after a Ben Arfa free kick, whilst Everton failed to register a single shot on target in the entire match. It was driving rain in the second half, and my train back to London was delayed by 3 hours. Sport can be cruel.

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Post by R!skysports on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:28 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I don't see anyone suggesting that?

Sensisball at the top of this page....

Do you even read what's posted on here? Whistle

See these Admin folk! Bunch of wasters! Coming on here and trying to start fights rather than actually reading the posts!

Each time and Admin messes up, they should be forced to watch replays of the Hearts vs Hibs game

That's harsh, plus you'd need to replicate the sub-zero temperatures which accompanied that particular snooze-fest.

I once travelled from London to Liverpool to watch Everton vs Newcastle. From recollection Newcastle won 1-0 after a Ben Arfa free kick, whilst Everton failed to register a single shot on target in the entire match. It was driving rain in the second half, and my train back to London was delayed by 3 hours. Sport can be cruel.

There is so much that does not ring true about this reply

You, going to football and you noticing the rain in your executive box (Unless the butler dripped on your shoes after)

You, on a train....with the riff raff.....


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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:35 pm

Riskysports wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I don't see anyone suggesting that?

Sensisball at the top of this page....

Do you even read what's posted on here? Whistle

See these Admin folk! Bunch of wasters! Coming on here and trying to start fights rather than actually reading the posts!

Each time and Admin messes up, they should be forced to watch replays of the Hearts vs Hibs game

That's harsh, plus you'd need to replicate the sub-zero temperatures which accompanied that particular snooze-fest.

I once travelled from London to Liverpool to watch Everton vs Newcastle. From recollection Newcastle won 1-0 after a Ben Arfa free kick, whilst Everton failed to register a single shot on target in the entire match. It was driving rain in the second half, and my train back to London was delayed by 3 hours. Sport can be cruel.

There is so much that does not ring true about this reply

You, going to football and you noticing the rain in your executive box (Unless the butler dripped on your shoes after)

You, on  a train....with the riff raff.....


I actually shared a carriage on the way home with Sol Campbell on that occasion (he played for Newcastle but lived in London); prospective Tory candidate for Mayor of London in 2016 and once rather handy defender (although not by that stage of his career).

If you'd been to the executive box at Goodison you'd know that it's perfectly possible to be inside it and still get soaked by the rain....

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:42 pm

tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I'd agree, nothing to suggest he's not up to it, certainly not in that game when we were getting destroyed in the scrum anyway.

With regards to Finn, it's easy to forget he's still learning his trade. Yeah the conversion attempt was poor, and he does still make the odd error, but as has been said he's miles better than any other option we have or have had for many years.

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6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February - Page 8 Empty Re: 6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February

Post by sensisball on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:08 am

Three things Berghan did wrong, in one play was 1) sliding round the side of a French maul and then 2) collapsing said maul and then 3) lying on the wrong side trapping the ball which resulted in a penalty extended the French lead to 6 points.

Apart from that and being mashed in the scrum i think he had a splendid debut.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:09 am

EWT Spoons wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why are we wanting to drop Berghan and bring in Welsh?

Nothing against Welsh, its just I didn't see Berghan doing much wrong to justify being dropped!

I'd agree, nothing to suggest he's not up to it, certainly not in that game when we were getting destroyed in the scrum anyway.

With regards to Finn, it's easy to forget he's still learning his trade. Yeah the conversion attempt was poor, and he does still make the odd error, but as has been said he's miles better than any other option we have or have had for many years.

Absolutely. He's the best 10 we've had since Townsend and, in my view, could surpass Toonie in the years to come. Worth also noting that Toonie used to produce some alarmingly daft nonsense as well, particularly kicking from hand (Russell is already a far more accomplished kicker from hand).

As for missing in front of the sticks, we have pedigree there as well. Hastings vs England springs to mind, as does Logan vs France in 1999. The ball didn't fall of the tee in those cases either.

Russell is awesome. We should be telling him that every day. He is the key to this Scotland team going on to better things, and light years ahead of any alternatives we have.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:12 am

sensisball wrote:Three things Berghan did wrong, in one play was 1) sliding round the side of a French maul and then 2) collapsing said maul and then 3) lying on the wrong side trapping the ball which resulted in a penalty extended the French lead to 6 points.

Apart from that and being mashed in the scrum i think he had a splendid debut.

You mean to say, apart from being a liability at the set piece and a penalty magnet in the scrum, you rate him?

Couldn't agree more. We've been waiting for the next Mattie Stewart for a long old time. Finally, we have a contender....

My problem with Berghan is simple. He hasn't played well enough for Edinburgh yet to justify being called up. He's been promoted far too quickly. At least Dell has been decent in the Pro12 when given the chance, but Berghan has so much more technical work to do on his scrummaging. I wholeheartedly agree that Jon Welsh should replace him on the bench.

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Post by sensisball on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:00 am

i am beginning to feel that my conspiracy theory that VC isn't allowed to pick Welsh because Welsh had a falling out with Toonie, hence his departure from Scotstoun, isn't actually a conspiracy theory after all.

One of the Scotland coaches was recently quoted along the lines of "we all know what Welshy can do but Simon could be something really special".
I'm  not sure if an inability to scrummage is what he had in mind when he was thinking of a really special quality for an international tight head prop.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:15 am

Awwww. Was hoping that losing narrowly away to France would'nt have damaged us so.....

Position Teams Points
1 -1 New Zealand 94.78

2 -2 England 91.02

3 -3 Australia 86.35

4 -4 Ireland 83.75

5 -5 Wales 82.44

6 -6 South Africa 81.79

7 -8 France 80.99

8 -7 Scotland 80.90

We need to pick up a win against Wales or England (and avoid defeat to Italy) to stop ourselves being dropped into 9th place Sad

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Post by RDW on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:20 am

tigertattie wrote:Awwww. Was hoping that losing narrowly away to France would'nt have damaged us so.....

Position Teams        Points
1      -1       New Zealand 94.78

2      -2 England        91.02

3      -3 Australia        86.35

4      -4 Ireland        83.75

5      -5 Wales                82.44

6      -6 South Africa 81.79

7      -8 France        80.99

8      -7 Scotland        80.90

We need to pick up a win against Wales or England (and avoid defeat to Italy) to stop ourselves being dropped into 9th place Sad


I know the rankings are more difficult to fathom than the Riemann hypothesis but surely we'll only drop down if we lose to Italy?

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Post by tigertattie on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:23 am

If we lose to England (being as they are ranked so high and it's away) then we won;t lose too many points (if any)

Lose to Wales though and we could drop down behind Argentina who are only a point behind us!

9 (9) Argentina 79.91
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Post by whocares on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:28 am

Is the WC seeding done before or after the RC? If it's the latter there is also a risk of Argentina picking a point by winning against SA and/or OZ...

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Post by Scottrf on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:32 am

I don't think Scotland would lose any ranking points losing to England, unless it's at Murrayfield. 10 points rating difference is the max which has effect isn't it?

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Post by demosthenes on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:37 am

tigertattie wrote:Awwww. Was hoping that losing narrowly away to France would'nt have damaged us so.....

Position Teams        Points
1      -1       New Zealand 94.78

2      -2 England        91.02

3      -3 Australia        86.35

4      -4 Ireland        83.75

5      -5 Wales                82.44

6      -6 South Africa 81.79

7      -8 France        80.99

8      -7 Scotland        80.90

We need to pick up a win against Wales or England (and avoid defeat to Italy) to stop ourselves being dropped into 9th place Sad


Posted elsewhere :  http://www.606v2.com/t65156-world-cup-seeding

And no, I don't understand it either.

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Post by RDW on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:41 am

whocares wrote:Is the WC seeding done before or after the RC? If it's the latter there is also a risk of Argentina picking a point by winning against SA and/or OZ...

It is done after the 6N.

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Post by R!skysports on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:53 am

This is the points change possibile against Wales


Home (on 80.90 points) at home -vs- Away (on 82.44 points)
Possible Outcome Rating Point

Exchange New Home

Rating New Away

Rating Will Home

overtake Away?

If Home win by 1-15 points 0.854 81.75 81.59 Yes
If Home win by more than 15 1.281 82.18 81.16 Yes
If result is a draw 0.146 80.75 82.59 No
If Away win by 1-15 points 1.146 79.75 83.59 No
If Away win by more than 15 1.719 79.18 84.16 No

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Post by Scottrf on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:01 am

The maths behind it:

(Home Ranking +3) - (Away Ranking) = Rating Difference
If higher rated team wins, they gain and other team loses:
1-(0.1(Rating Difference))
If lower rated team wins, they gain and other team loses:
1+(0.1(Rating Difference))
If a draw, ratings change by 0.1(Rating Difference).

Rating changes are multiplied by 1.5 if the win is by 15 points or more.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:21 am

So if Wales win we drop to 79.75 which will put us behind the pumas!

other than beating England, I don't think we can recover enough points against Italy as it's at home and they are too low ranked!

So basically, we need to beat Wales!
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Post by IanBru on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:38 am

tigertattie wrote:So if Wales win we drop to  79.75 which will put us behind the pumas!

other than beating England, I don't think we can recover enough points against Italy as it's at home and they are too low ranked!

So basically, we need to beat Wales!
That's it exactly. God, this is feicing hectic.
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Post by IanBru on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:43 am

I've just checked things and, strangely, if we lose to Wales, we'd be relying on Italy beating England and France, so that their rankings improve so much that if we then pump Italy (by 16 or more) on the final weekend, it can actually improve our points vis-a-vis Argentina.
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Post by rapidsnowman on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:17 pm

IanBru wrote:I've just checked things and, strangely, if we lose to Wales, we'd be relying on Italy beating England and France, so that their rankings improve so much that if we then pump Italy (by 16 or more) on the final weekend, it can actually improve our points vis-a-vis Argentina.

Yeah, but that ain't going to happen.

I mean it would be like Leicester winning a Premiership title or Donald Trump becoming US President -  there's no chance!

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Post by tigertattie on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:17 pm

not gonna happen though is it Bru!

It's in our hands though! beat Wales or England and We're fine Smile If we don't manage to beat England or Wales then realistically we don't deserve to be in tier 2
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Post by TJ on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:42 pm

After a bit of reflection.
I'm not really too disappointed in the result. Scrums cost us the game - nothing else altho one or two guys did not play to their best and injuries hurt us badly.
Even so we had a chance of winning which has got to be good. We were not a well beaten team as we have been too often in the past 6/10

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Post by alive555 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:12 pm

What are the usual weeks off for HIAs ?

Assuming Hardie is out and Barcs is too then who will come in ?

Wilson at 6, Watson at 7 and Strauss at 8 with CDP and Ashe on bench ?
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Post by tigertattie on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:19 pm

alive555 wrote:What are the usual weeks off for HIAs ?

Assuming Hardie is out and Barcs is too then who will come in ?

Wilson at 6, Watson at 7 and Strauss at 8 with CDP and Ashe on bench ?

Wilson slots back in and I think you'll see the ginger tackle monster on the bench if Barclay and Hardie don't make it back!

There's no set time off for HIAs these days. Each case and player are assessed and can return to play if deemed fit! It used to be a mandatory two or three weeks but the rules changed!

Hardie looked proper sparko so he may miss the Wales game, but Barclay didn'y look too bad and if his shoulder is ok, he could be back for Wales!
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Post by jimbopip on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:22 pm

It may sound like some revisionist heresy but....

I thought we did reasonably well against a side who could/should have won at Twickers. Apart from the scrums the one area we were second best was the breakdown. Obviously losing Barcs and The Shoplifter's Nightmare was a big blow but we really needed someone who could be a real nasty, aggressive, irritating pain in the neck at the rucks.

Step forward Robert Harley...Your country needs you. Mainly to annoy the fecc out of a couple of million Welsh chappies.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:00 pm

In hindsight Rob Harley would have been a good call to play the first 60 minutes against France.

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