Ireland v England The Grand Slam

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Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 9:57 pm

As an Ireland fan I would like to move quickly onto next weeks Grand Slam decider. England rightly are 6nations champions by a mile. This is the coup de grace for England to win back to back Grand Slams and the world record for 19 wins on the trot.

For Ireland other than the possibility of ruining the party there isn't much to play for so with that in mind I would like to put forward a proposed Irish team for next Saturday.

15 Rob Kearney (deserves another chance)
14 Adam Byrne (why not
13 Ringrose (Still improving)
12 Henshaw
11 D Kearney (Good at resourcing rucks)
10 Sexton
9 Marmion (Murray needs a rest)
8 Heaslip (best No.8 in the world bar none)
7 SOB (best converted No.8 in the world)
6 Conan or Leavy (POM and CJ need a rest and these guys are great)
5 Toner
4 Someone from Leinster
3 Furlong
2 Best if he wants to but otherwise someone from Leinster
1 Healy/McGrath

Subs - Anyone from Leinster and their mother or even the ball boy who threw the ball at Nige.

Why the Leinster bias you might ask...well its clear they are by far the best team in Ireland with the best players and play the way Joe likes...winning rugby. Secondly it doesn't matter a damn whether we win or lose next Saturday. Lastly its going to be physical and with the upcoming European Championship games I would like to ensure that the Leinster players are well toned for their game against Wasps....nothing to do with ensuring the Munster lads are not put in harms way....


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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Scottrf on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:06 pm

Is the Heaslip comment serious?

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:12 pm

Totally . He is brilliant

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Scottrf on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:13 pm

Picamoles says hi. Read and Billy too.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:19 pm

Logically if you look at it, everyone(in leinster at least) says Joe is the best coach in the world. He obviously sees things that heaslip does that us mere mortals miss. Ergo Jamie is the best no.8 in the world.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Scottrf on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:23 pm

Apologies for the little effort I clearly made to reading the post  Laugh

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:27 pm

No problem. Except that I am totally serious. Ireland need to blood (literally) new players. The leinster lads are undoubtedly the best suited for this task. Should be a walkover

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:38 pm

Aside from injury I would be shocked if there are any team changes. Sorry, but the Munster boys will still feature.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:43 pm

I wasn't just thinking of the Munster players. It was an all Ireland approach. The leinster lads get game time and the players from the other provinces who are clearly not as good are saved for the pro12 run in and the European cup games. Winners all round

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by lostinwales on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:06 pm

Seriously though - in the old days it was the scrum halves who had the most punchable faces. These days its the fly halves. Skilled players all - but its not like the likes of Farrell and Bigger wouldn't attract some violence, but Sexton takes it to another level.

Actually seriously - I do wonder if Ireland will lose a couple of players to injury for next weekend. They do have the extra day's recovery but they were in the wars last Friday. I suspect England will lose Daly but we have pretty decent cover. I can't see us having any other problems.

Which reminds me. Is Gilroy injured? I was wondering why Bowe was playing in the first place.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:15 pm

No Gilroy is too capable of beating a man and being creative. Therefore he is surplus to requirements

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:24 pm

DOD back amongst us. OK

15. Simon Zebo (why not and I think he gets more chance to be an effective wing at fullback than he does as wing)
14. Adam Byrne (big athletic, fast and smart in a heads-up non-headless chicken way.  I know that's not the kind of wings Ireland likes but why not)
13. Payne (back in the saddle again and why not.  Ringrose is improving but England are in a mood that requires an experienced International old dog there at 13).
12. Henshaw (probably playing the kind of impact rugby he never dreamed he'd be playing so much of in a Joe Schmidt Ireland team.  But he's solid -if a little too eager at times -  so why not.)
11. Niyi Adeolokum (right wing - left wing.  Doesn't really make any difference in this Irish side so why not.)
10. Paddy Jackson (he's the one growing into his role. Johnny is not having a good phase in his career.  Pick the confident one.  Why not?  Nothing to lose except the game.)
9.  Marmion.  (More a classic 9 that wants to keep injecting pump and pace into a game.  We tried our big guy a lot, now lets see what the little guy might do.  Why not?)
8.  Heaslip. (He's knackered trying to carry this side but he'll go another 80.  "Why me??" says the universally unloved Heaslip.  "Why not?" chants the jealous basterdes with less natural testosterone running through their veins.)
7.  Van der Flier. (Well, with a name like that in an Ireland side, it's either a big joke or you hope he proves it.  So why not.)
6.  CJ Stander. (Another token Munster man.  He had a off day, which is unusual for him; so why not just let him out to hunt again.)
5.  Devin Toner.  (His height is his guarantee.  Why not have more options at his height?  The IRFU clone program is well behind schedule.)
4.  Donnacha Ryan. (the head of an Irish chieftain.  Why not have a man that doesn't look a boy?  He's a role model for masculine bone structah.)
3.  Furlong.  (Our new blunderbuss given SOB and Healy have resigned from the role.  Should he be dropped?  Not one reason why he should.)
2.  Rory. Under pressure this year after a good 2016.  But he's Captain so why would he not be picked if fit?)
1.  Healy. (A shadow of his former self but he should be sufficiently hot headed for England after that Welsh farce, so why not?)

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:31 pm

Too many non Leinster players for me. Not enough ruck resourcing. You know that the only way to win a rugby game is to ensure your head down with your arse in the air

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:42 pm

Henderson for Ryan and POM for Stander and I'd take your team Fly

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:43 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Which reminds me. Is Gilroy injured? I was wondering why Bowe was playing in the first place.

Everyone in Ulster wonders as well.

Idiotic decision

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:46 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson for Ryan and POM for Stander and I'd take your team Fly

I was hoping to keep Henderson for impact sub when I think a second half might need him against these highly strung English.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:50 pm

I certainly agree with the Joe type suggestions here. We definitely need to not have the best no.8 in Ireland playing at 6. And the best 6 not playing. Even better we definitely need to drop our best second row (by a mile) . All these make sense to me.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 12:02 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I certainly agree with the Joe type suggestions here. We definitely need to not have the best no.8 in Ireland playing at 6. And the best 6 not playing. Even better we definitely need to drop our best second row (by a mile) . All these make sense to me.

I know what you mean. A change of personage in the no.8 role would see all that ruck resourcing nonsense melt away instantly and release Zebo and Earls to engage in what they do best - running sub-11 minute 100 meter sprints - in a straight line - on a running track - on a nice day - with no headwind - and no ball. Wink

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 12:18 am

I would certainly like to see Zebo and Earls released to engage in what they do best. Playing for Munster.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 1:40 am

It might work as a run-out for the June series against Japan and USA.

Sexton and Murray need to be stood down - they'll only get more head-knocks. Jackson and Carbery and Marmion and McGrath.

Best has regressed to Better. Except there's no one else.

Henderson instead of Ryan. And Healy to start.

Henshaw and Ringrose replaced by Olding and Payne.

Zebo and Adeolokun on the wings and Kearney at the back.
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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 9:42 am

Interestingly I saw it mentioned that if we lose next weekend Ireland under Joe will have a worse win/loss ratio than under Kidney. Not sure jf that us true but if it is it would be quite telling

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 10:40 am

Joe should definitely make some changes for the dead rubber both to rest players like Stander and build team depth.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 1:00 pm

This is the game when Ireland could bounce back and stop England from winning the Grand Slam, and stop England run of winning games.

But despite England's fantastic win over Scotland i am sure EJ will be keen to keep England's feet well and truly on the ground.

I do expect England to win. But i also expect Ireland to give them a far harder game than what Scotland did.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by poissonrouge on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 1:24 pm

Secondly it doesn't matter a damn whether we win or lose next Saturday.
Wrong.
Lose and we risk dropping below 4th position in world rankings (if Wales win).
Or maybe I am wrong and it doesn't matter a damn what seeding group we are in for next Rugby World Cup
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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Steve_rugby on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 1:29 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:This is the game when Ireland could bounce back and stop England from winning the Grand Slam, and stop England run of winning games.

But despite England's fantastic win over Scotland i am sure EJ will be keen to keep England's feet well and truly on the ground.

I do expect England to win. But i also expect Ireland to give them a far harder game than what Scotland and Wales did.

Corrected it for you. Very Happy

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by englandglory4ever on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 2:28 pm

The first half will be pivotal. Ireland played fast and heavy against Wales for 60 mins but clearly ran out of steam in the last quarter. What must be very worrying is that Ireland only looked like scoring a try just before Henshaw's brainstorm when he joined the maul from the side just as the pack were about to drive over the Welsh line. After that, Ireland looked like they could play for 24 hours non-stop and not score. When England's bench come on late in the game Ireland will need to be well in front on the scoreboard to have any chance of closing the match out.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by westisbest on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 5:21 pm

In the backs I'd like to see

15 Zebo
14 Gilroy.

Trimble on the bench.
Is he fit.

Or TOH, from a Connacht perspective.

Keep the rest as it was.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 7:47 pm

Will Connor Murry and Johnny Sexton be avalible? 

Or are they both carrying knocks/injuries?

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 9:01 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:This is the game when Ireland could bounce back and stop England from winning the Grand Slam, and stop England run of winning games.

But despite England's fantastic win over Scotland i am sure EJ will be keen to keep England's feet well and truly on the ground.

I do expect England to win. But i also expect Ireland to give them a far harder game than what Scotland did.

The Irish players don't see it as 'stopping England'. That's not a positive motivation and would be a poor state of mind to turn out on the pitch with.

"We would not look at it like that. We will focus on getting outlrselves right. We will want to right a few wrongs after losing today so we will be doing our best to learn from our errors and get it right in a week's time". We need to put on the best performance possible for the supporters watching on Tv and those at the Aviva."
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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 9:44 pm

Agree PH. England always like to think they are the narrative that everyone reads but Ireland have their own story to write.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 11:10 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Agree PH. England always like to think they are the narrative that everyone reads but Ireland have their own story to write.
Tom Court just said on Brian Moore's podcast that he always felt Ireland's tournament preparation was geared around England as the big match. Not exactly a pivotal figure in Irish rugby, but when a former players trots out that line, then it's not hard to see why some in England might also start to think that way.


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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by wolfball on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:07 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Interestingly I saw it mentioned that if we lose next weekend Ireland under Joe will have a worse win/loss ratio than under Kidney. Not sure jf that us true but if it is it would be quite telling

Easily checked, and easily seen to be false. Joe only has a below 50% winning record against 3 teams, NZ, Wales and England with England by far the worst at 25%. Not a good omen for next weekend, but his winning record is marginally better than EOS and far better than Kidney's.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by wolfball on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:13 am

SecretFly wrote:DOD back amongst us. OK

15. Simon Zebo (why not and I think he gets more chance to be an effective wing at fullback than he does as wing)
14. Adam Byrne (big athletic, fast and smart in a heads-up non-headless chicken way.  I know that's not the kind of wings Ireland likes but why not)
13. Payne (back in the saddle again and why not.  Ringrose is improving but England are in a mood that requires an experienced International old dog there at 13).
12. Henshaw (probably playing the kind of impact rugby he never dreamed he'd be playing so much of in a Joe Schmidt Ireland team.  But he's solid -if a little too eager at times -  so why not.)
11. Niyi Adeolokum (right wing - left wing.  Doesn't really make any difference in this Irish side so why not.)
10. Paddy Jackson (he's the one growing into his role. Johnny is not having a good phase in his career.  Pick the confident one.  Why not?  Nothing to lose except the game.)
9.  Marmion.  (More a classic 9 that wants to keep injecting pump and pace into a game.  We tried our big guy a lot, now lets see what the little guy might do.  Why not?)
8.  Heaslip. (He's knackered trying to carry this side but he'll go another 80.  "Why me??" says the universally unloved Heaslip.  "Why not?" chants the jealous basterdes with less natural testosterone running through their veins.)
7.  Van der Flier. (Well, with a name like that in an Ireland side, it's either a big joke or you hope he proves it.  So why not.)
6.  CJ Stander. (Another token Munster man.  He had a off day, which is unusual for him; so why not just let him out to hunt again.)
5.  Devin Toner.  (His height is his guarantee.  Why not have more options at his height?  The IRFU clone program is well behind schedule.)
4.  Donnacha Ryan. (the head of an Irish chieftain.  Why not have a man that doesn't look a boy?  He's a role model for masculine bone structah.)
3.  Furlong.  (Our new blunderbuss given SOB and Healy have resigned from the role.  Should he be dropped?  Not one reason why he should.)
2.  Rory. Under pressure this year after a good 2016.  But he's Captain so why would he not be picked if fit?)
1.  Healy. (A shadow of his former self but he should be sufficiently hot headed for England after that Welsh farce, so why not?)

Not sure how serious you are but in general like that team. TOH at FB, Zebo wing instead of Niyi and VDF injured no? If not I think VDF is exactly what this teams needs.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 8:52 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Agree PH. England always like to think they are the narrative that everyone reads but Ireland have their own story to write.

They need to try genres other than tragic romance


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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by eirebilly on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 8:56 am

This is the side I would like to see.


15 : Payne (or TOH)
14 : Zebo
13 : Henshaw
12 : Olding (Or Mcloskey)
11 : Gilroy
10 : Jackson
09 : Murray
08 : Stander
07 : Van der Flier
06 : POM
05 : Toner
04 : Ryan
03 : Furlong
02 : Best
01 : McGrath
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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Engine#4 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 6:18 pm

I was just thinking that the 5 Munster starters was too many, we barely had any when Holy Joe was winning championships. Coincidence?

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 6:26 pm

Team that we will see:

McGrath - Best - Furlong
Ryan - Toner
Stander - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Henshaw - Ringrose
Zebo - Kearney - Earls

Subs: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Henderson, O'Mahony, Marmion, Jackson, McFadden.

Will Payne come straight back in? Who knows. He knows the system so he might come in for Ringrose.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by lostinwales on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 7:11 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Team that we will see:

McGrath - Best - Furlong
Ryan - Toner
Stander - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Henshaw - Ringrose
Zebo - Kearney - Earls

Subs: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Henderson, O'Mahony, Marmion, Jackson, McFadden.

Will Payne come straight back in? Who knows. He knows the system so he might come in for Ringrose.
Well they should be well rested given that some of them didn't bother turning up last Friday.

SOB is more 'steer' than raging bull these days. - which means I guess he's due to pull out the kind of performances that once made him one of the most feared back rows in Europe.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 7:18 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Team that we will see:

McGrath - Best - Furlong
Ryan - Toner
Stander - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Henshaw - Ringrose
Zebo - Kearney - Earls

Subs: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Henderson, O'Mahony, Marmion, Jackson, McFadden.

Will Payne come straight back in? Who knows. He knows the system so he might come in for Ringrose.
Well they should be well rested given that some of them didn't bother turning up last Friday.

SOB is more 'steer' than raging bull these days. - which means I guess he's due to pull out the kind of performances that once made him one of the most feared back rows in Europe.

Laugh Gotta say that's already my line of the week, lost. OK

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 8:00 pm

The Irish team selection will be interesting.
If they keep the same lineup, then England will target the Irish back row ball carriers on the gainline and also the inside shoulder of Ringrose, as they did with Huw Jones on Saturday.
If they change the backrow the emphasis will possibly change to a more set piece strategy. If they bring in Payne, the narrow defence previously employed will probably be better managed with his experience but is that a conservative attacking choice ?
The Irish spine of the team has the look of being in decline. Best, Ryan, Heaslip Kearney with untested alternatives.


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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 8:48 pm

Best, Ryan, Heaslip, Kearney.  Of those four I'd agree with you Rec that Kearney is not going to go back to his best.  He has one or two games a year, if lucky, when he has a great game but for International at this level, that is just not consistent enough.  He needs to be replaced now.  His International period should be close to an end.

The others maybe had a pretty bad game at the weekend but I wouldn't class that game as the final sign of their demise.  Our forwards are overworked because our backs don't produce enough of a distinct threat of their own as a unit.  So the focus from the opposition is on our ball carriers, our breakdown, our scrum, our lineout etc.  Our backline has no cut and thrust so it isn't potent enough to force teams to spread their concerns when preparing for us.

I'm not sure we have enough of anything now in the tank to resist England in top form.  But like most Irish fans are saying, that's again our coaching problem.  We believe there are fresh, young, less predictable players available and ready to be 'tested' at International.  Joe, however, keeps picking.... well, bizarrely Bowe last week and now another man from the past coming in this week in the form of McFadden - always a periphery player for Ireland but seemingly still a better choice for Joe than the young players putting up their hands to get in on the action.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:15 pm

Those forwards listed are all great players but the relentless phase play demanded by their tactics does not suit these players, as they no longer have the game changing physicality to carry it out. Only the LH props, Stander and O'Brien can do it. Decline is a strong word but at Test level it has always been a brutal reality.

A great deal always seems to be expected of Murray and Sexton which is just a little unrealistic given the overall lack of Test pace and sometimes skill in the backs.

I thought when England presented the Calcutta cup to the press camera's, all the squad just stood there, stock still and smiled - a pre planned move. A clear message that the Championship was not over yet. An understated and confident nice touch.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:39 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Those forwards listed are all great players but the relentless phase play demanded by their tactics does not suit these players, as they no longer have the game changing physicality to carry it out. Only the LH props, Stander and O'Brien can do it. Decline is a strong word but at Test level it has always been a brutal reality.

A great deal always seems to be expected of Murray and Sexton which is just a little unrealistic given the overall lack of Test pace and sometimes skill in the backs.

I thought when England presented the Calcutta cup to the press camera's,  all the squad just stood there, stock still and smiled - a pre planned move. A clear message that the Championship was not over yet. An understated and confident nice touch.

That's the Central Character in the whole puzzle Rec. I've been moaning about it now for a good few years after having initially given Joe some rope to get his basics right and hoping he'd then advance to a gameplan with sharper teeth and less zig-zag phase play. But this design continues and it doesn't help players last through series (WCs or 6N) and neither is it effective enough at a consistent level.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by whocares on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:43 pm

Is McFadden playing much for Leinster these days? I don't recall seeing him in the champions cup for instance.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by lostinwales on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:45 pm

Apparently Murray and Sexton both passed fit for the weekend.

Lots of flesh coloured sticky tape methinks

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by lostinwales on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:46 pm

Duplicate post

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:Apparently Murray and Sexton both passed fit for the weekend.


Oops!  That didn't work out too well for the boys.  They were planning on avoiding another boxing match so soon after the last one:


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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 11:35 pm

I'm convinced Schmidt is a sadist. He received the ultimate pleasure in selecting Tommy Bowe, firstly finding comfort in the disappointment of the fans before sending him out for one final hoorah in the last minute of the game, culminating in the fulfilment of his satisfaction as he witnessed what was probably Bowe's career ending injury. Then he replaces him with Fergus McFadden.

What a week that man is having.

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 4:07 am

I do love the comments from the England players as they desperately try to find something to say to hype the Ireland side as they look to "create history" (c) Eddie Jones 'My Book of Favourite Sayings' 3rd edition.

The match will be on "the day after St Patrick's Day" is my favourite.

Has anyone from England what most of Ireland looks like the day after St Patrick's Day? It's not a pretty sight.

I'd far prefer Eddie Jones to say 'Ireland have already lost to two of the British teams, just think how much worse it will be against England as we take them to the cleaners while creating history in their backyard on the day after St Patrick's Day.'

However, it doesn't sound like he's even going to mention Sexton's parents again. That's how low Ireland have sunk - they don't even merit a Jones barb anymore.

Tsk, tsk.
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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 8:16 am

There's still 4 days to go Pot - be patient Wink

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Re: Ireland v England The Grand Slam

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