F1 German GP Thread - Contains Qualifying & Race Spoilers as usual

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Ain't doing it no one reads it anyway

[GSC]

Wow. When your luck is in, cash in. If it wasn't already over, it most likely is now.

[nathan]

Wow. When your luck is in, cash in. If it wasn't already over, it most likely is now.

Deserves some luck after last year.

Anyway, it means nothing till the end of the race, he could get a DNF.

Track damp on Hamiltons and verstappens side, kimi to be leading at the 1st corner

[nathan]

Kimi with issues

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Vettel proving why he's the best driver on the grid today - magnificent drive

[nathan]

Vettel proving why he's the best driver on the grid today - magnificent drive

Rubbish

Vettel didn't have a great race at all. His car is so much faster than all the other drivers behind him bar Bottas (who really is a disappointment) that the only challenges were the three cars that finished ahead of him. If he had managed to get round his first real hurdle in the race than it would have been a very good drive. As it is when he got to the back of Ricciardo he had no answers.

[nathan]

Also wonder who's fault it was at the end and why Vettel took his steering wheel

[nathan]

Looked like Vettel turned in sharper than the corner

[Fernando]

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

A fairly interesting race all in all. Verstappen showing his star appeal, had it not been for all his DNFs, he'd had battered Ricciardo this season. Mercedes had a relative poor weekend but when your main rival starts last and his teammate doesn't even start, it's happy days. Bottas showing he's way below the class of Rosberg, can't see beyond Ocon in that car in 2019. Mercedes will be concerned with Bottas' form if Ferrari can show similar pace in Japan. Vettel did all he could to keep the drivers championship in his own destiny. If he wins last five races he'd be champion(can't envisage that happening mind you). Stoffel top drive again, McLaren may well have scored an OG by axing Honda.

As for Vettel Stroll incident, the onboard footage shows Stroll drift into the Ferrari, but incredibly stupid anyway

[dyrewolfe]

Vettel proving why he's the best driver on the grid today - magnificent drive

Yeah...so good that me manages to crash with another driver on the cooldown lap.

Also wasn't good enough to get past Ricciardo, even though he was on softer tyres.

[dyrewolfe]

Well that was a suitably dramatic last GP in Malaysia.

Mercedes showing that while they may still hold the upper hand in qualifying, their race pace is sometimes lacking. Seems it was issues with tyre temperatures this weekend.

Brilliant overtake by Max early on to secure the lead, after which he never looked back. Red Bulls obviously much better on the tyres and he was able to extract so much more pace. Can't remember the last time Mercedes were beaten by over 10 seconds.

What a way to celebrate your 20th birthday.

Decent race by Danny Ric. Never looked to have the pace to be in contention for the win and nearly had his podium stolen by the hard-charging Vettel. Some great defensive driving to maintain his position until Seb's tyres gave up.

Pretty uneventful race for Mercedes after the early shenanigans. They'll just be happy to build their constructors' title points haul and Lewis will be satisfied to build his lead over Vettel.

Ferrari...well there always seems to be something going wrong for them. Kimi's brilliant efforts in qualifying wasted. Decent damage control by Vettel to work his way up to 4th and stop his title bid slipping even further out of reach.

Both Williams and Force Indias in the points and a 7th place for Vandoorne.

Most entertaining parts of the race for me were Alonso's duel with Magnussen and rookie Gasly showing he can mix it up.

[GSC]

Pretty good effort at damage control but can't drop anymore points. Overall swing of probably close to about 50 points in the last 2 races due to racing incidents/car failures.

Good thing Bottas has his deal for next year, looks well off the pace of the top drivers. Should never be beaten by Seb in that scenario.

Quietly, Stoffel now leads Fernando. Settled down and looking like the driver who was hyped.

[Fernando]

Vettel proving why he's the best driver on the grid today - magnificent drive

Yeah...so good that me manages to crash with another driver on the cooldown lap.

Also wasn't good enough to get past Ricciardo, even though he was on softer tyres.

I wish you'd think before you'd speak some days DW

1) Fancy explaining why Stroll's moving right on a left hand corner? - https://twitter.com/AdrianPearson80/status/914418341552455680

2) They have a shorter life then the softs so was always going to go off the cliff at some point also he closed down like 15-20 seconds on them then he's engine overheated.

But don't let facts get in the way of a argument eh

[Guest]

That drive by Vettel was pretty standard damage limitation, in terms of the package he was in, and the nature of the track being generous to overtaking. The Stroll incident was not Vettel's fault either, and it was to be expected the super-softs would go off, and the fact he was flat out for the majority of the race, leading to overheating the engine.

Elsewhere, been quietly impressed with Stoffel for a while now, beginning to show that Alonso has possibly regressed more than some people would like to admit.

Bottas has been AWOL since the summer break. No chance he's in the Mercedes in 2019. Fully expect it to be between Ocon & Ricciardo for that seat.

As for Ferrari, the cards just don't seem to be falling right for them.  34 points is a big margin, but given their package and the fact Hamilton only needs one DNF, it's still wide open.

[GSC]

When it rains it pours, Vettel may need a gearbox change in Japan.

Clearly Strolls fault from that replay, most likely didn't see Vettel in his mirrors and trying to come to the racing line to pick up rubber but he deviated from his line.

[nathan]

Vettel was still taking a line that was tighter than the corner meaning he was squeezing Stroll but then stroll didn't turn tight enough around the corner.

Both to blame and the stewards get it right

[Guest]

Robert Kubica given opportunity to test for Williams at Silverstone & in Hungary. Straight shoot out for the drive between RK & PDR now, seeing as Di Resta will also be there to provide the benchmark for Kubica to match or better. Likely the end for Massa now

[erictheblueuk]

Great drives by Verstappen and Vettel, but Hammy did here what Vettel should have done in Singapore, just let Verstappen go and follow him home.

[GSC]

I don't think Hamilton "let him go" at all and even if that were valid, it's an entirely different story with a 3 point deficit vs a 28 point lead.

Vettels won 2 titles by 3 and 4 points, Hamilton lost last year by 5 points and people think chucking away 7 points is a valid strategy for some reason.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Hamilton definitely alluded to the fact he didn't try to defend too hard as he had so much to lose. That may of course be him making excuses, but it certainly wasn't as robust a defence as we've seen from him at times in the past. I would also argue that on a circuit with plenty of overtaking opportunities with a clearly slower car it would have been difficult to keep Verstappen behind him all race in any case. By contrast, in Singapore there are very limited overtaking opportunities so track position is king, and the Ferrari was at least a match for the Red Bull there, hence Vettel wanting to stay in front. Also as GSC says, very different positions in terms of the championship points (e.g. with Vettel behind him and a 28 point lead Hamilton could more easily afford dropped points).

Having said that, I do think Vettel was a bit too aggressive in Singapore, particularly given the conditions. I agree with the ruling of "racing incident", but Vettel was the one who could have prevented it (Verstappen maybe had a chance also, Raikkonnen could do nothing).

[dyrewolfe]

Vettel proving why he's the best driver on the grid today - magnificent drive

Yeah...so good that me manages to crash with another driver on the cooldown lap.

Also wasn't good enough to get past Ricciardo, even though he was on softer tyres.

I wish you'd think before you'd speak some days DW  

1) Fancy explaining why Stroll's moving right on a left hand corner? - https://twitter.com/AdrianPearson80/status/914418341552455680

2) They have a shorter life then the softs so was always going to go off the cliff at some point also he closed down like 15-20 seconds on them then he's engine overheated.

But don't let facts get in the way of a argument eh

What can I say? Even I enjoy the odd bit of trolling.   Stewards put both drivers at fault for the incident IIRC.



Also, if you look carefully, Vettel clearly turns in towards Stroll. Why do that on a cooldown lap? Why not just stay wide?

[erictheblueuk]

I don't think Hamilton "let him go" at all and even if that were valid, it's an entirely different story with a 3 point deficit vs a 28 point lead.

Vettels won 2 titles by 3 and 4 points, Hamilton lost last year by 5 points and people think chucking away 7 points is a valid strategy for some reason.

It's exactly the same as all Vettel had to do ,in Singapore, was finish in front of Hammy to increase his lead which is what exactly what Hammy did  here in Malaysia.

[GSC]

Yes, unfortunately for Vettel, there were still 6 races to go after Malaysia, 3 of which on paper favoured Mercedes outright, so he needed to maximise his points gain at a heavy Ferrari track.

That people actually think giving away a free 7 points in a championship separated by 3 points after 13 events is a good idea baffles me.

Likewise Hamilton isn't giving away a free 7 points at Malaysia if he can help it. Those 7 points would have put in Rosbergs position last year of only needing to take 2nd places. Verstappen was just faster in race pace.

[GSC]

Bottas to take a 5 place penalty for a change of gearbox

[banbrotam]

Likewise Hamilton isn't giving away a free 7 points at Malaysia if he can help it. Those 7 points would have put in Rosbergs position last year of only needing to take 2nd places. Verstappen was just faster in race pace.

But he also doesn't need to aggressively defend, against a driver well known for not backing off, and lose 18. It is totally feasible that Hamilton backed off slightly - particularly when you see how far ahead Max ended

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Those 3pts in Hungary are far more relevant than Hamilton’s less than aggressive defence against Verstappen in KL

[Guest]

Hamilton pole
Vettel 2nd
Ricciardo 3rd

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Crushing pole position for Hamilton, Vettel only managed 3rd but inherited 2nd due to Bottas' gearbox woes. Ferrari can't get near the Sliver Arrows in cooler conditions. Hamilton's coronation on the verge.

[Guest]

Post-Japan, Jolyon Palmer will leave Renault. Sainz will move to Renault, and Kyvat will replace Sainz at Toro Rosso

[dyrewolfe]

Congrats Lewis - first pole at Suzuka...at long last!

Looked pretty dominant in all sessions. Decent show by Bottas...shame about the grid penalty. Though it does set up an intriguing start tomorrow, with Vettel starting alongside Hamilton and Ricciardo 3rd.

[GSC]

Been a real shame the last few races, looked like we were going to get a real tight finish but the last 3 races have killed it.

Hopefully Ferrari can take another step forward next year and push Mercedes all the way.

[Guest]

Shame for the championship, but part and parcel of the sport. When situations like this unfold, easy for it to detract something away from Hamilton and his driving, which has been superb since the summer break. Shame for Ferrari, but it's a team sport, and they must take responsibility for these issues, at such a critical part of the season

59 points clear now with four races to go. Pretty much game over now. All in all, this season was billed as a duel that would reignite F1, but looks like it will disappoint in the end, and we've barely seen any wheel to wheel action between the two protagonists, other than behind a safety car in Baku, and at the start in Spa?

[GSC]

Think part of the problem is very rarely have the cars been evenly matched, generally ones been dominant depending on the track/conditions

[Fernando]

The Mercedes is the best car just the Ferrari has a bigger operating window.

I hope you've got your humble pie ready John considering all the sh*te you gave Nico for winning the reliability title last year

[Guest]

Can see your conclusions, but I don't think Hamilton has solely relied upon the unreliability of a rival, in comparison to the extent that Rosberg did, in order to take this years title.

Hamilton has driven superbly this season, has most race wins, most poles & was championship leader before today, so nothing should detract from that. Ferrari have paid the price for their continued strive towards matching Mercedes power, and it's come at a cost, whereby they've sacrificed reliability in that pursuit. Of course people will point to the reliability issues Ferrari have faced recently, but that hasn't been the sole reason for Hamilton having such a lead right now. Ferrari were tactically caught out in Spain with the VSC, where it was generally agreed, Vettel should have won. At Silverstone, they threw away a haul of points, by running too long a final stint, and both drivers suffered from tyres issues. Vettel's temperament has also cost him as much as unreliability, and he clearly lost two clear race wins in Singapore & Baku, through his own costly mistakes. His collision in Canada with Verstappen on lap 1, another example of where Vettel has thrown away crucial points. You take those errors away, and this championship is very much still alive. I remember us stating on here that Vettel would be disappointed at how small a lead he had gained during the earlier part of the season, when Ferrari were very much on top, after wins in Australia, Bahrain & Monaco. Contrast these mistakes to Hamilton, and he's surprisingly had quite an error-free season, bar Russia, where he just went AWOL.

So, all in all, I would judge it very harsh in labelling this potential championship for Hamilton, as purely achieved through the unreliability of Vettel, in Japan. I personally think Hamilton has out-driven Vettel this season, and it has been the accumulation of crucial mistakes by the German, with the added pain of one more mechanical DNF, being the decisive factor this year.

[Fernando]

If you want to label Nico's title victory as a reliability title then Lewis' is too unfortunately.

Realistically 4 races in Silverstone, Singapore, Japan & Malaysia has cost Sebastian the title. Lewis hasn't won it he's been handed it through failures & a start line incident caused by something which literally all pole position drivers do.

I don't think Lewis has been that great this year. On Occasions he's shown how well he can drive but with Valteri as his teammate i don't think he's been pushed as hard as he did with Nico. I don't think this has been one of his better years despite winning the title.

I suspect next year will be a lot more comfortable for him once Mercedes figure out how to work the car in all conditions.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sad end to the season in all reality but Ferrari have shown in the past that when it matters they easily implode. Granted Vettel made an error in Singapore. But Ferrari are tactically inept at times.

Vettel will be a little pissed that he's not won the championship but I doubt he'll disappear in 2018 like Rosberg did in 2015. Vettel' shot the experience of multiple world championships so he'll lick his wounds and comeback next year.

Ferrari might regret not selecting a replacement for Kimi in 2018 though. Whether it was Grosjean, Perez or wonderkid LeClerc, it's quite clear Kimi isn't a capable of sustained good form.

[dyrewolfe]

If you want to label Nico's title victory as a reliability title then Lewis' is too unfortunately.

Realistically 4 races in Silverstone, Singapore, Japan & Malaysia has cost Sebastian the title. Lewis hasn't won it he's been handed it through failures & a start line incident caused by something which literally all pole position drivers do.

I don't think Lewis has been that great this year. On Occasions he's shown how well he can drive but with Valteri as his teammate i don't think he's been pushed as hard as he did with Nico. I don't think this has been one of his better years despite winning the title.

I suspect next year will be a lot more comfortable for him once Mercedes figure out how to work the car in all conditions.

I think what John is getting at is that Vettel is also guilty of self-sabotage, to an extent, driving into the back of Lewis during a SC period and managing to drive into both Max and Kimi off the start.

Ferrari have definitely had their issues this season, but Hamilton's last season were arguably worse.

[dyrewolfe]

Anyway I will just come out and say it now...congrats Lewis Hamilton, 2017 F1 Champion.

59 points in the lead with 100 left to play for. According to Andrew Benson, the remaining races should favour Ferrari & Red Bull, with the circuits either being high-altitude, or featuring lots of slow corners.

That being said, unless Mercedes have some sudden, catastrophic problems, I can't see Lewis dropping enough points for Vettel to overhaul him. Think it will be close (in fact I hope it is), but ultimately I think its all over now.

[GSC]

Kubica has tested for Williams but in a 2014 car so can't really draw any conclusions from that about whether he could handle an entire race distance in the 2017 spec and be competitive.

Supposedly that was Renaults issue with replacing Jolyon with him, at their test he struggled apparently.

Will be a further test in Hungary, with Kubica having 1 day and PDR the other, but DR is there to provide a benchmark with it being Massa or Kubica next year.

Personally feel that's a mistake, think PDR is probably their best choice of the 3 with Massa being in semi retirement for about 4 years now, Kubica Kinda a huge question mark over 20 races and Stroll a huge question mark in general.

[CaledonianCraig]

If you want to label Nico's title victory as a reliability title then Lewis' is too unfortunately.

Realistically 4 races in Silverstone, Singapore, Japan & Malaysia has cost Sebastian the title. Lewis hasn't won it he's been handed it through failures & a start line incident caused by something which literally all pole position drivers do.

I don't think Lewis has been that great this year. On Occasions he's shown how well he can drive but with Valteri as his teammate i don't think he's been pushed as hard as he did with Nico. I don't think this has been one of his better years despite winning the title.

I suspect next year will be a lot more comfortable for him once Mercedes figure out how to work the car in all conditions.

I think what John is getting at is that Vettel is also guilty of self-sabotage, to an extent, driving into the back of Lewis during a SC period and managing to drive into both Max and Kimi off the start.

Ferrari have definitely had their issues this season, but Hamilton's last season were arguably worse.

Also remember that Hamilton is a proven world champion already whereas Rosberg was not - his world title was the only one he won so one-offs can more easily be put down to luck than something that has happened multiple times.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Musical chairs continue at Toro Rosso which 2017 Le Mans winner Brendon Hartley to make his F1 debut at Texas. The 27 year old New Zealander was a former Red Bull junior and 2015 world endurance champion. Pierre Gasly has gone back to super formula at the insistence of Honda.

Can anyone clear if Kvyat is back in his car? Or Hartley took Gasly's car which was originally Kvyat's? Getting all confused ...

[GSC]

To be honest with the introduction of driver numbers you no longer "have" a car anyway

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Hamilton might take a knee during the US national anthem

RIP in advance if he does

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Max Verstappen signed new deal with Red Bull Racing until 2020. Guessing that means Red Bull will turf out Daniel Ricciardo to keep the golden boy happy.

[Guest]

Ricciardo probably turfed out to Mercedes for 2019, is hardly something the Australian will be upset with. Would expect Verstappen & Sainz at RB in 2019. Bottas might even end up replacing Kimi at Ferrari, given the limited options out there.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Ricciardo probably turfed out to Mercedes for 2019, is hardly something the Australian will be upset with. Would expect Verstappen & Sainz at RB in 2019. Bottas might even end up replacing Kimi at Ferrari, given the limited options out there.

With Charles LeClerc rumoured to be driving for Sauber in 2018, he’s the man most likely to replace Kimi. Otherwise what’s the logic behind Ferrari having a junior academy?

[GSC]

Be amazed if Verstappen doesn't have a performance clause with RB likely to pick up Honda engines for at least a year

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

FIA really needs to work on a better system to deal with engine penalties. Max Verstappen 15 places for new ICE and other bits. F1 debutant Brendon Hartley 20 places in which could be his only ever F1 race. The teams should forfeit constructors points for the races where extra engine components are used. Punishing the drivers kills the spectacle.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Hamilton pole. Vettel pulls one out of the hat for second. Bottas third and should be disappointed. Mercedes was clearly the fastest car

[Sponsored content]