England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

king_carlos wrote:Paul Hill is a big blow with Cole and Sinckler away.

Could it offer a reprieve to Brookes?

Is it acceptable for an international player to only be able to play 55 minutes at 50% intensity? That might be acceptable if you're wrecking the opposition scrum, but he isn't.

Hope so though, need Eddie to give him some running drills and diet advice.

Bad news on Marchant - he's definitely earned a call up this season and it would be good to see if he can step it up. But given last summer he was playing in the JRWC, he has time on his side.

If Argentina don't win at least one test this summer they really need to go away and think about themselves pretty hard.

It's not just that England are missing players...its that many of those that have been selected aren't the natural reserves or those who've trained as part of the wider squad ...they are raw promising outsiders

Cyril wrote:Hill and Marchant both ruled out of Argentina tour.

Dropping like flies

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/hill-and-marchant-ruled-out-argentina-tour/

Really disappointing, two players I was looking forward to seeing.

Interesting reading that Jones is yet to finalise his squad - I thought he already had, but guess he wants to add some names.

Scottrf wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Paul Hill is a big blow with Cole and Sinckler away.

Could it offer a reprieve to Brookes?

Is it acceptable for an international player to only be able to play 55 minutes at 50% intensity? That might be acceptable if you're wrecking the opposition scrum, but he isn't.

Hope so though, need Eddie to give him some running drills and diet advice.

Luckily we have 4 props already, so Brookes or whoever would hopefully only be holding tackle bags.

Nathan Catt will attest that Eddie Jones isn't averse to naming a player in a squad to get a look at them then having a replacement leapfrog them after injury strikes.

Brookes has plenty of faults but he also has 16 caps and has never embarrassed himself during them. Collier and Williams are arguably second choice at their clubs - although both Quins and Chiefs rotate their props - so Brookes battle for the Saints shirt may not count against him.

It's a shame that Henry Thomas has been injured for so long this season.

king_carlos wrote:Nathan Catt will attest that Eddie Jones isn't averse to naming a player in a squad to get a look at them then having a replacement leapfrog them after injury strikes.

Brookes has plenty of faults but he also has 16 caps and has never embarrassed himself during them. Collier and Williams are arguably second choice at their clubs - although both Quins and Chiefs rotate their props - so Brookes battle for the Saints shirt may not count against him.

It's a shame that Henry Thomas has been injured for so long this season.

Williams seems to have leapfrogged Tomas in the tighthead pecking order. He started with the Welsh international on the bench at the weekend. Collier is very much second choice. To be honest I think Collier is some short term squad filler on this tour. Williams has a bit more about him and he is a monster of a man (6ft4 and 20+ stone and not work shy) that's been improving year on year under Baxter.

I'm not sure there's much point giving Brookes more exposure because it looks like Eddie doesn't fancy him going forward. Not sure there's a realistic alternative though given the current injuries and Lions call ups.

Collier isn't "very much second choice" at Quins. He's a better scrummager than Sinckler and both fans and coaches prefer him to start in tighter games or against the best scrummaging packs. He had 20 appearances this season and 10 starts.

It is likely that he's some way down Eddie's pecking order, but he's on tour on merit and I hope he's given a chance to see if he can make the step up. But for a bad run of injuries, he could have got a call up before Sinckler.

When is the team announced for the Baa Baas game?

Im waiting for my call up!

Poorfour wrote:Collier isn't "very much second choice" at Quins. He's a better scrummager than Sinckler and both fans and coaches prefer him to start in tighter games or against the best scrummaging packs. He had 20 appearances this season and 10 starts.

In what way is that not second choice then? Given that Sincklers been unavailable for a number of games due to England commitments which funnily enough largely coincide with when Collier started. As far as I can see hes only really started ahead of Sinckler 4 times, the same number of times Sinckler has played the full 80 minutes whilst hes been either sat on the bench or at the pie stand.

With some level of player management factored in it doesn't seem to me theres much evidence to suggest hes in any way getting a signiifcant number of starts ahead of Sinckler. I really dont see it as a controversial statement to say hes second choice at his club when hes chosen second the vast majority of times.

GeordieFalcon wrote:When is the team announced for the Baa Baas game?

Im waiting for my call up!

Been searching for when there may be a team announcement and came up with nothing. You'd think today or tomorrow though.

Interesting quote from George Ford in an interview with England Rubgy:

“I don’t think you’d want to go to Argentina thinking any differently,” he said. “We want to go there and win 2-0 and we are expecting to.”

Despite the losses, England are backing themselves. You wouldn't expect less from an Eddie Jones side, but it will be interesting to see how it goes.

robbo277 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:When is the team announced for the Baa Baas game?

Im waiting for my call up!

Been searching for when there may be a team announcement and came up with nothing. You'd think today or tomorrow though.

Interesting quote from George Ford in an interview with England Rubgy:

“I don’t think you’d want to go to Argentina thinking any differently,” he said. “We want to go there and win 2-0 and we are expecting to.”

Despite the losses, England are backing themselves. You wouldn't expect less from an Eddie Jones side, but it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Its a bit of a non comment really. What else is he going to say?
We can take a more rational view and suggest that if its a strong Argentinian squad available then they really should be targetting wins. If they cant then it really disproves the notion that being in the RC would suddenly transform them into a major world force.

Gooseberry wrote:Its a bit of a non comment really. What else is he going to say?
We can take a more rational view and suggest that if its a strong Argentinian squad available then they really should be targetting wins. If they cant then it really disproves the notion that being in the RC would suddenly transform them into a major world force.

Indeed. "Considering the players we have missing, we'd be happy with 1-1." Yeah right.

Rumours:

Solomana is rehabbing particularly well and may still travel if he passes the England fitness test

Haley looks likely to travel after showing up well in training.

Squad named, I've put it on the match thread.

Scottrf wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Its a bit of a non comment really. What else is he going to say?
We can take a more rational view and suggest that if its a strong Argentinian squad available then they really should be targetting wins. If they cant then it really disproves the notion that being in the RC would suddenly transform them into a major world force.

Indeed. "Considering the players we have missing, we'd be happy with 1-1." Yeah right.

I still think any England test side should go out believing they should win.

Let others call it arrogant, you can't be the best without that kind of mentality.

robbo277 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Its a bit of a non comment really. What else is he going to say?
We can take a more rational view and suggest that if its a strong Argentinian squad available then they really should be targetting wins. If they cant then it really disproves the notion that being in the RC would suddenly transform them into a major world force.

Indeed. "Considering the players we have missing, we'd be happy with 1-1." Yeah right.

I still think any England test side should go out believing they should win.

Let others call it arrogant, you can't be the best without that kind of mentality.

Damn right. That's what NZ does. And if you're winning 70+% of your matches then it's a reasonable expectation rather than "arrogant"

I agree...it think we have to go out expecting to win.

The team will be made up of some senior experience England players...like Robshaw, Care, Ford, Brown, Launcbury, Hartley etc etc

Mixed with some youngsters who have genuine potential yet who have already shown up very well already in the respective leagues...Underhill, the Currys, Haley (possibly), James, Earle, Isiekwe.

I think we should go with confidence...but that's not arrogant.

Tom Wood might not be going anymore. He has just been red-carded for a stamp.

With Wood and Haskell out there's probably room for one more back row, question is who is left deserving of a call up!

robbo277 wrote:With Wood and Haskell out there's probably room for one more back row, question is who is left deserving of a call up!

And lets see how Hughes comes through today?

Taxi for Mr Morgan........

robbo277 wrote:With Wood and Haskell out there's probably room for one more back row, question is who is left deserving of a call up!

Don Armand is another of last year's Saxons squad who hasn't been considered again. Strong performance for Exeter today might cause Jones to reconsider.

kingelderfield wrote:

robbo277 wrote:With Wood and Haskell out there's probably room for one more back row, question is who is left deserving of a call up!

And lets see how Hughes comes through today?

Taxi  for Mr Morgan........

Hughes had his best game since the 6 Nations breaking tackles on numerous occasions and he was hard done by to be pinged for the penalty to bring the scores equal.

Have to say mind I really hope he does not get called up to the Lions. Argentina will be plenty as like many his performances have diminished with the prolonged season.

Who needs wood etc when we have the curry brothers!!!

When you look at that performance and consider that Ben Curry has been consistently better of the two twins this season you have to be excited about what the future holds. Out of the two it is Ben has been more the ground hog whilst Tom has played more of a blindside role. Imagine when they fill out a bit! It is difficult to believe they are only 18. Both will learn a lot from the Argentina tour and will have to considering the back-row situation. No Haskell, Wood, Billy V. I haven't heard any news about Underhill either, hope he will be fit. Who do you call up if Wood and Underhill are out? Could do worse than Mark Wilson, just saying.

At least we know that the locks will be fine, even if Launchbury does get called up. I thought that Isiekwe and Ewells showed up well. I wish I could go back to 2008-2009 and reassure myself that our 5/6 choice locks would be this good in the future!

And Earle in the backs! AAC & Goode had a torrid time with him, boy that boy csn shift!

Aye, Earle was good. He looks to have a degree of power to go with his speed and positional skill, a good contrast to some of our nippier outside backs like May and Watson.

Cumbrian wrote:Aye, Earle was good.  He looks to have a degree of power to go with his speed and positional skill, a good contrast to some of our nippier outside backs like May and Watson.

I thought he outshone May personally. Very strong in defence and his attacking threat will only grow with game time. I was a bit dubious when first selected but he certainly has promise.

England tour squad

Forwards

Don Armand (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)

Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

Dylan Hartley, captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)

Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)

Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)

Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)

Chris Robshaw, vice captain (Harlequins, 55 caps)

Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)

Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 cap)

Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, uncapped)

Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Backs

Mike Brown, vice captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)

Danny Care, vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)

Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)

Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1cap)

Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)

George Ford, vice captain (Bath Rugby, 36 caps)

Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)

Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)

Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins, 11 caps)

Final squad.......Mark Wilson!!!!

Lol.just as I start to think LCD is actually bang in form and plating really well and probably has edged in front of Taylor. ...

Is Tom Wood just dropped or has he already been banned?

Unless I have missed a hooker somewhere, seems strange to only have two in the squad.  If there is an injury to one on the morning of the match presumably the match is off? I agree LCD is in form and seems odd not to take him.

Also 5 wingers?

Overall a strange mixture, certainly not really a 2nd/3rd XV

List of players missing is pretty big..

The following players were not available for selection:
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 74 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Elliot Daly (Wasps, 13 caps)
Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 52 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 17 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 12 caps)
Sam Jones (Wasps, uncapped)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 20 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 58 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 51 caps)
Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 23 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 8 caps)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 8 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 34 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps)

Possible selection for the first test?

1. Genge
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Ewels
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Hughes

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May/Yarde
12. Devoto/Mallinder?
13. James?
14. Earle/Solomona
15. Brown

I'd potentailly go with Mallinder at 12 and Slade at 13, on the basis that I think those two will have the longest England careers and I want to look at them in the tests. If not that as your option, I'd want to look at Slade at 12 as a like-for-like for Farrell, with someone else filling in at 13.

Wings I'd probably go with May and Solomona (if fit). Earle did look impressive though, maybe a bench spot?

Agree with your pack. 9, 10 and 15 pick themselves. Bench I'd go: Taylor, Mullan, Collier, Isiekwe, Armand (?), Maunder, Lozowski, Earle - although you could potentially leave Lozowski out and put another back row on the bench.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Possible selection for the first test?

1. Genge
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Ewels
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Hughes

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May/Yarde
12. Devoto/Mallinder?
13. James?
14. Earle/Solomona
15. Brown

That is not a bad pack. However I would go with one of the Curry boys rather than Underhill. Devoto over Mallinder for me until Mallinder learns to tackle. Earle looks a fine prospect but is still defensively naïve.

I thought Earle showed up excellently in defence at the weekend, much better than May anyway.

Curry looks really exciting but Argentina is a different game. Underhill is a real step up physically and we'll need his defensive power to start imo.

Was Underhill ok after the match? He went off injured.

I'd say that Collier has earned a start ahead of Williams at the weekend, same for Genge as well.

Earle deserves to start in the same back three I think.

12.Devoto 13.Slade as a centre partnership could work well.

king_carlos wrote:I'd say that Collier has earned a start ahead of Williams at the weekend, same for Genge as well.

Earle deserves to start in the same back three I think.

12.Devoto 13.Slade as a centre partnership could work well.

I am not sure playing Barbarians is anywhere near the level of Sarries and Wasps against both of which Williams looked excellent. Collier does look a useful prospect though. Earle looked good going forward but failed to take a couple of chances and was way out of position for one of the Barbarians tries.

Exiledinborders wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I'd say that Collier has earned a start ahead of Williams at the weekend, same for Genge as well.

Earle deserves to start in the same back three I think.

12.Devoto 13.Slade as a centre partnership could work well.

I am not sure playing Barbarians is anywhere near the level of Sarries and Wasps against both of which Williams looked excellent. Collier does look a useful prospect though. Earle looked good going forward but failed to take a couple of chances and was way out of position for one of the Barbarians tries.

Agree that Williams has looked better than Collier, he's worth a start. Not sure if Earle was out of position (AAC try?), he was covering the outside if I recall correctly and it was his inside man that missed the tackle?

This is not a new squad, merry updated to account for newly unavailable players.

So LCD, Hill and Marchant injured and replaced by Taylor, Devoto and Schonert.
haskell and Wood (expected to be banned) replaced by Around and Wilson.

Underhill and Lozowski expected to be fit, so included. Beaumont failed HIA so unable to fly, thus not considered.

Just watched the try again, Earle looked to trust his inside man but then didn't follow the runner, just kind of did nothing. Showed good gas to almost get back though.....or is it that AAC is just that slow?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I'd say that Collier has earned a start ahead of Williams at the weekend, same for Genge as well.

Earle deserves to start in the same back three I think.

12.Devoto 13.Slade as a centre partnership could work well.

I am not sure playing Barbarians is anywhere near the level of Sarries and Wasps against both of which Williams looked excellent. Collier does look a useful prospect though. Earle looked good going forward but failed to take a couple of chances and was way out of position for one of the Barbarians tries.

Agree that Williams has looked better than Collier, he's worth a start. Not sure if Earle was out of position (AAC try?), he was covering the outside if I recall correctly and it was his inside man that missed the tackle?

Earle stepped in just as the inside man made the tackle, leaving a clear run for the line. Not surprising given the luck of familiarity.

Unfortunately I missed the game and the highlights don't generally show much.

What did Curry do that he stood out?
Did Underhill look like the hype could be warranted?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Unfortunately I missed the game and the highlights don't generally show much.

What did Curry do that he stood out?
Did Underhill look like the hype could be warranted?

Underhill put in a very physical performance but looked a little like he was trying too hard. Curry played a very mature game for an 18 year old. I still expect Underhill to get the nod for the tests, assuming he's fit, but the Currys look like excellent prospects.

Well that's good to hear.

The highlights showed Curry making a number of good offloads playing like a link man...good to see.

From the highlights it also seemed that Sam James had a good hard carrying game at centre...with a neat offload for Earles try.

Agree with Poor.

It was a little tough for Underhill as we were on the back foot for the majority of the time he was on the pitch. I watched him closely though and he reminds me very much of a young Pocock. His technique over the ball is excellent and he got in position quite a few times, wrongly pinged a few times( I thought the ref was poor). He just needs to pick when to go for it and when to step back, both of which will will come with time. His aggressive defence is very impressive, knocking carriers back regularly, he's a powerful lad.

Curry looks a real talent. His link was excellent but what impressed me more was his confidence, he was constantly in the face of the opposition. He looks about 12 but he is not intimidated by anyone. Looks decent on the ground and has some good gas, can't believe he's 18/19??

Expect Tom wood won't tour....that red card will surely have a ban attached.