Lions reinforcements (or why we should learn to love Roberts)

First topic message reminder :

Since we're all being so nice to each other and we haven't had one for a while,  i thought we needed to relieve some tension with a new Lions thread.

We know that by the 1st test there will be at least 15-20% casualties so we'll lose up to 8 players. Its likely we'll lose a couple before the squad even leaves and unlike the boyos at Rorke's Drift Gatland can call on reinforcements to swell the ranks to hold off the All Black hordes. With the club games and well documented All Black perceptions of what is and what isn't foul/dangerous play, it could get messy.

I expect the following to get the nod in this order. I've picked players who should have been in the squad, are leaders, or who are former Lions and can make an impact.

Props: Healy, Jenkins, Evans,
Props: Nel, Lee, Francis
Hookers: Hartley, Brown, Hibbard
Locks: Launchbury, Ryan, R Gray, Charteris,
Flank: Watson, Lydiate, Wobshaw
8: Heaslip, ?
9: Care, Davies
10: Ford, Russell.
Centre: Roberts, Ringrose
back 3: Kearney. Never Mike Brown

Fire at will.

David-Douglas wrote:

No9 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:As much as Eddie Jones gets on my pecks, he has a point. The Lions should be about who is the best, not who is closest.

TightHEAD wrote:Eddie understands the lions better than Gats. Sign him up for 2021tour.

be sensible.... IF replacements are needed now, with only a few mid-week games left, as I'm sure that is what Gats is trying to bolster allowing rest time for players featuring in the tests, then it makes perfect sense bringing the guys in who are in the same (or near) timezone. What's the point of bringing in players from the England squad in Argentina and then waiting a week for them to get over the jet lag. The tour will be over by then.

Simply get off your nationalistic pride, and support the LIONS.

There are better players already in the same time zone. Scotland just beat Aus in Sydney - Wales haven't had what it takes to do that since 18th June 1987.

Gatland has devalued the shirt. Not for the first time.

and he's picked two of them ffs, thats now a massive contingent of deep fried mars bars they have to ship in

It's disrespectful to all the qualified players in new Zealand super rugby and club sides whoncoildve been called up instead

LordDowlais wrote:4 Welsh players called up to the Lions !!!!!

Well at least there is a Merthyr boy in there now.

Well Merthyr is in its own time zone so fits with Gats' thinking, I guess. Mwah!

Gwlad wrote:

David-Douglas wrote:

No9 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:As much as Eddie Jones gets on my pecks, he has a point. The Lions should be about who is the best, not who is closest.

TightHEAD wrote:Eddie understands the lions better than Gats. Sign him up for 2021tour.

be sensible.... IF replacements are needed now, with only a few mid-week games left, as I'm sure that is what Gats is trying to bolster allowing rest time for players featuring in the tests, then it makes perfect sense bringing the guys in who are in the same (or near) timezone. What's the point of bringing in players from the England squad in Argentina and then waiting a week for them to get over the jet lag. The tour will be over by then.

Simply get off your nationalistic pride, and support the LIONS.

There are better players already in the same time zone. Scotland just beat Aus in Sydney - Wales haven't had what it takes to do that since 18th June 1987.

Gatland has devalued the shirt. Not for the first time.

and he's picked two of them ffs, thats now a massive contingent of deep fried mars bars they have to ship in

Exactly, only two. Plus 4 more Welsh nobodies who will add nothing.

C'mon Gwlad, we've had some friendly disagreements on this site and you are being got at by some of my hotter headed compatriots but, when you sit down and think about it, this just is wrong. The point's been made that these new Welsh players feature some who would struggle to make their own national 23 and that's just bizarre selection. SCW set a nepotistic standard in 2005 but at least most of his eye raising selections were World Cup Winners, albeit arguably beyond their sell by date.

What this issue proves is the point I made on a BBC forum yesterday: in future the Lions coach must not be the national coach of one of B&I Four. It's unfair on him as much as the players - damned if he chooses, damned if he doesn't.

Even Geech said this is a disgrace.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Even Geech said this is a disgrace.

Bet he's crying pretty hard

We are still playing like a team out of form that would finish the 6nations in 5th place, just enough of a game plan to outwit Italy.

We are going to get smashed like Samoa if we continue like this

H/t simply not good enough

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Shame Aussie jones doesn't realize that it is the lions not an opportunity for English boys to go on a midget tossing jolly

One them knows what he's talking about and the other is Warren Gatland, sums you up defending it.

Defending the Lions and proud of it, Jones is only concerned about advancing English interest, sums you up supporting it.

The Lions is supposed to be the best players from Britain and Ireland. The four Welsh players called up are certainly not that, two of them wouldn't normally feature in a Wales 23. Francis isn't even the first choice tighthead at his club either that guy is out in Argentina.

If they wanted a second row at short notice and close to camp then Johnny Gray an exponentially better player is across the Tasman. It's an insult to the Lions traditions in my view.

Which traditions? The one where players were asked to go and didn't because they couldn't afford to? The tradition is that the Lions are selected on a kind of ability - AVAILability.

Far from devaluing the shirt, Gatland is actually putting the true value on it. The Lions should be lower priority than the Nations it relies on. Scotland have just beaten Australia - stripping that team of its best players would ruin their chances of a series win. Next time the RWC comes round the usual stuff is then perpetuated about how often NH teams win in the SH blah blah blah. That's how damaging the Lions concept is to national rugby.

Like Rory I am massively relieved no Ireland players are in the reinforcements and pleased they remain where they are most prized and important.

Welsh quartet Kristian Dacey, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill and Gareth Davies have been called up to the Lions squad.

Who? Who? Who? and Who?

WHY?

Oh yes the WRU, Gatland's current employers get £280 000 for providing that lot. The, Welsh, players get some high quality training (or tackle bag holding) But are any of them even good enough for the mid-week team

TightHEAD wrote:We are still playing like a team out of form that would finish the 6nations in 5th place, just enough of a game plan to outwit Italy.

You're in Rotorua and posting on here......somehow I doubt it

TightHEAD wrote:We are still playing like a team out of form that would finish the 6nations in 5th place, just enough of a game plan to outwit Italy.

You're in Rotorua and posting on here......somehow I doubt it

I have a phone you tool.

I have no issue with the lack of English (or Irish) call ups, as the logistics mean they would really be no good for Tuesday game. However preferring these Welsh players ahead of Scots is myopic at best.

TightHEAD wrote:I have a phone you tool.

Which you appear to be watching more than the game. Never in all my life have I seen anyone at a lions game sitting posting other phone.

Until now. Would be you.

LondonTiger wrote:I have no issue with the lack of English (or Irish) call ups, as the logistics mean they would really be no good for Tuesday game. However preferring these Welsh players ahead of Scots is myopic at best.

I believe some scots are being called up too, but needed to wait until after their game v Aus. We'll see.

It's half time and everyone is doing a Haka on the way to the bar, so I thought I'd give it a miss and post here, technology is a wonderful thing.

Gwlad wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I have a phone you tool.

Which you appear to be watching more than the game. Never in all my life have I seen anyone at a lions game sitting posting other phone.

Until now. Would be you.

He and International post from the same location in Cardiff, he's not in NZ.

jeez - I saw Eddies comments and thought he was having a sly dig at Gatland just to keep the pot boiling and then saw who has been called up!

In a way it's a relief as the 3-0 drubbing coming up can at least be written off by 3 of the 4 sets of fans as 'not in our name'.

I feel sorry for the Welsh fans of rugby (as opposed to the Welsh fans of Gatland), it must be as cringy for them now as it was for the English during Old Baldy's tour in NZ.

The meeja must be loving it!

Griff wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I have no issue with the lack of English (or Irish) call ups, as the logistics mean they would really be no good for Tuesday game. However preferring these Welsh players ahead of Scots is myopic at best.

I believe some scots are being called up too, but needed to wait until after their game v Aus. We'll see.

I understand that, but Nel and Fagerson better than Yorkshire's Francis, Barclay better than Hill, Brown better than Dacey. (imo of course)

TrailApe wrote:jeez - I saw Eddies comments and thought he was having a sly dig at Gatland just to keep the pot boiling and then saw who has been called up!

In a way it's a relief as the 3-0 drubbing coming up can at least be written off by 3 of the 4 sets of fans as 'not in our name'.

I feel sorry for the Welsh fans of rugby (as opposed to the Welsh fans of Gatland), it must be as cringy for them now as it was for the English during Old Baldy's tour in NZ.

The meeja must be loving it!

me too.

We have the usually antagonists on here but some of the defence of Gatland is cringeworthy.

Its not just the Welsh lads being picked either. Alan Dell is a decent player and growing into test rugby. He is not a Lion. Not even by any stretch of imagination. Not even in my most ridiculous Scottish biased Lions squads would I have ever picked Alan Dell

Dell is exactly the sort of player who will benefit from the call-up. He's not critical to Scotland's success so won't upset Townsend's plans too much and will learn and get confidence from playing in NZ.

Well said Radge, I'm not sure Dell is a first choice for Scotland...hell he's not even a first choice for the Luvvies if everyone else is fit.Gatland's selection of Welsh players who are not good enough for the Lions has gone way beyond irritating, through baffling to plain embarrassing.
Apart from the drooling lunatic fringe, I suspect most Welsh rugby fans (who by and large know their rugby and love the game) will be surprised, baffled and embarrased by this last set of call ups.

Good win but we don't have enough players from Wales to beat the All Blacks next weekend.

Who else could Gatlabd call up?

Scotty looks fit, get the man a pair of boots.

Officially announced, Russell and Dell called up.

Of the 6 new players only Finn Russell is deserving of it, it is completely bonkers and devalues the whole concept.

BigGee wrote:Officially announced, Russell and Dell called up.

Of the 6 new players only Finn Russell is deserving of it, it is completely bonkers and devalues the whole concept.

So chuffed for Russell, he has a genuine chance to push into the test team.

Dell? Happy for the lad, but jeez. He's not good enough!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BigGee wrote:Officially announced, Russell and Dell called up.

Of the 6 new players only Finn Russell is deserving of it, it is completely bonkers and devalues the whole concept.

So chuffed for Russell, he has a genuine chance to push into the test team.

Dell? Happy for the lad, but jeez. He's not good enough!

I can't see him ousting Sexton or Farrell TBH at this stage. Not just the fact that he doesn't suit Gatland's style, but also that as a later call-up he'll be less familiar with the squad, tactics, etc. Think today's game vs the Maoris showed the importance of settled squads with time together. Still, if he plays anything like he's been playing the last couple of games he should immediately leapfrog Biggar, and then he'd only ever be one injury away from a spot in the 23.

Dell's call-up seems a bit odd, but no worse than any of the other four geezers. Gatland must really not rate Wales's LH props...

No chance for Russell to get into the test team. No point anyway without the guys he knows around him. I hope he turns it down. Its insulting.

Dell - Decent player and improving but not first choice for Scotland

Russell has proved in the past two games that he should have been picked in the first place. He has done that the right way, by playing well on the pitch.

Gats won't give him a look in though, not unless all three other FHs get injured and probably not even then!

In what world is Corry Hill better than Jonny Gray? Why Allan Dell over Rob Evans?

Gatland is a total fud

EST wrote:In what world is Corry Hill better than Jonny Gray? Why Allan Dell over Scott Baldwin?

Gatland is a total fud

Because Scott has been playing crap, so he might have got that one right...

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:In what world is Corry Hill better than Jonny Gray? Why Allan Dell over Scott Baldwin?

Gatland is a total fud

Because Scott has been playing crap, so he might have got that one right...

Sorry, i meant rob evans

Good God..

What a bunch of morons on here...

The call ups are needed to cover the MIDWEEK games only, so that the possible Test players don't have to warm mid-week benches. That's makes perfect sense.

Now, with a game on Tuesday and one a week later, and with it taking over a week to get over jet lag, why would you bring any players in that would not have time to acclimatise. Hence, you bring in players already there or in neighbouring time zones.

So, what cover is needed.

1. Scrum Half - yes, only 3 on tour, need a 4th to give 2 per team breakdown. Who's the best available, simple Gareth Davies way above Ali Price or Pyrgos.

2. Fly Half - Yes, again only 3 on tour, need a 4th. Finn Russell obvious and just announced called up. Wasn't going to announce it BEFORE they played Australia or during the Lions game, so keep your hair on guys, it was just a timing thing.

The 2 call ups above also work out on experienced partnerships, ie Russell/Laidlaw and Biggar/Davies, as they are the expected midweek half-backs for the remaining games. The still have chance to put their hands up for a Test spot, but that's going to be tough.

As for the other call-ups, not 100% sure they are needed, as there does seem to be cover in those spots, and also not sure they will feature.

But if you (English) really want to drag an English player from Argentina, at the end of a season, for them to break themselves playing in one mid-week game (as that's all they could do) then you need your head examined.

EST wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:In what world is Corry Hill better than Jonny Gray? Why Allan Dell over Scott Baldwin?

Gatland is a total fud

Because Scott has been playing crap, so he might have got that one right...

Sorry, i meant rob evans

...and he'd still be right as Rob Evans was unavailable through injury. Cian Healy might have been a better option, unless he was considered too far away. Is Fagerson at LH for you guys?

No9 wrote:Good God..

What a bunch of morons on here...

The call ups are needed to cover the MIDWEEK games only, so that the possible Test players don't have to warm mid-week benches. That's makes perfect sense.

Now, with a game on Tuesday and one a week later, and with it taking over a week to get over jet lag, why would you bring any players in that would not have time to acclimatise. Hence, you bring in players already there or in neighbouring time zones.

So, what cover is needed.

1. Scrum Half - yes, only 3 on tour, need a 4th to give 2 per team breakdown. Who's the best available, simple Gareth Davies way above Ali Price or Pyrgos.

2. Fly Half - Yes, again only 3 on tour, need a 4th. Finn Russell obvious and just announced called up. Wasn't going to announce it BEFORE they played Australia or during the Lions game, so keep your hair on guys, it was just a timing thing.

The 2 call ups above also work out on experienced partnerships, ie Russell/Laidlaw and Biggar/Davies, as they are the expected midweek half-backs for the remaining games.  The still have chance to put their hands up for a Test spot, but that's going to be tough.

As for the other call-ups, not 100% sure they are needed, as there does seem to be cover in those spots, and also not sure they will feature.

But if you (English) really want to drag an English player from Argentina, at the end of a season, for them to break themselves playing in one mid-week game (as that's all they could do) then you need your head examined.

I dont think anybody is complaining about Davies or Russell, it's the other four which are terrible decisions. Why not pick Gray over Hill? He picked Russell, so it's obviously not the distance.

There's obviously more players carrying injuries than being made public, so they can now be rested from training.

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:In what world is Corry Hill better than Jonny Gray? Why Allan Dell over Scott Baldwin?

Gatland is a total fud

Because Scott has been playing crap, so he might have got that one right...

Sorry, i meant rob evans

...and he'd still be right as Rob Evans was unavailable through injury. Cian Healy might have been a better option, unless he was considered too far away. Is Fagerson at LH for you guys?

Fagerson's a TH. The current Scottish LHs are Reid and Dell (probably not much between them), with Dickinson injured.

Fully expecting a Wales tour to Zimbabwe and Namibia in summer 2021 if the block headed moron gets a sniff of being head coach again

Cory Hill over Jonny Gray, Dacey over Fraser Brown/Ross Ford are just astounding - agree England and Ireland players are too far away but those two are such obvious examples of Gatland favouring Welsh dross

EST wrote:

No9 wrote:Good God..

What a bunch of morons on here...

The call ups are needed to cover the MIDWEEK games only, so that the possible Test players don't have to warm mid-week benches. That's makes perfect sense.

Now, with a game on Tuesday and one a week later, and with it taking over a week to get over jet lag, why would you bring any players in that would not have time to acclimatise. Hence, you bring in players already there or in neighbouring time zones.

So, what cover is needed.

1. Scrum Half - yes, only 3 on tour, need a 4th to give 2 per team breakdown. Who's the best available, simple Gareth Davies way above Ali Price or Pyrgos.

2. Fly Half - Yes, again only 3 on tour, need a 4th. Finn Russell obvious and just announced called up. Wasn't going to announce it BEFORE they played Australia or during the Lions game, so keep your hair on guys, it was just a timing thing.

The 2 call ups above also work out on experienced partnerships, ie Russell/Laidlaw and Biggar/Davies, as they are the expected midweek half-backs for the remaining games.  The still have chance to put their hands up for a Test spot, but that's going to be tough.

As for the other call-ups, not 100% sure they are needed, as there does seem to be cover in those spots, and also not sure they will feature.

But if you (English) really want to drag an English player from Argentina, at the end of a season, for them to break themselves playing in one mid-week game (as that's all they could do) then you need your head examined.

I dont think anybody is complaining about Davies or Russell, it's the other four which are terrible decisions.  Why not pick Gray over Hill?  He picked Russell, so it's obviously not the distance.

Ever thought he may have sounded Gray and the Scottish management out, and said.... "We need cover, there's no guarantee of a game, are you interested..." and Gray said "NO!!".. We do know that Russell and Davies will get games, even if off the bench, as they don't have the depth at 9 and 10, but the others may simply be for training cover, and Gats may not want to insult players like Gray for that role...

If this was earlier in the tour, even last week, with more chance of the replacements being able to have an impact, maybe I'd be more critical, but to me the decision isn't a problem. Just too many out there with bruised egos looking for a problem.

I actually predicted this happening on a thread 2 weeks ago, but cant find where I said it... (not the actual individuals called up, but the approach of calling up from the Welsh squad in NZ).

The WRU have announced that they will have a group holiday in SA in 2021.

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:In what world is Corry Hill better than Jonny Gray? Why Allan Dell over Scott Baldwin?

Gatland is a total fud

Because Scott has been playing crap, so he might have got that one right...

Sorry, i meant rob evans

...and he'd still be right as Rob Evans was unavailable through injury. Cian Healy might have been a better option, unless he was considered too far away. Is Fagerson at LH for you guys?

Fair enough, the point im driving at is that Dell is not deserving of his call up - we have better options, he isn't even the best loosehead at his club.

Frankly the way these call up's have been managed is shoddy. If he knew he was going to do this, why not get the likes of Healy over a couple of days earlier? There are so many ways around this. What makes the Lions special is that it's the best players playing together. If you start picking on geography, then you lose the very reason the lions exist.

TightHEAD wrote:The WRU have announced that they will have a group holiday in SA in 2021.

Keep posting this drivel and anti Lions thread PLEASE.... That way, if you are out in NZ on tour (which I doubt), you may just end up with a Data Roaming Bill of a few £1000s when you get back, You do realise that NZ isn't in Europe and subject to the new data roaming rules!!! That, on top of the £1000s it would have cost you to get out there will soon take the smile off your smug face..

So is Russell cannon fodder or can he maybe muscle his way into the tests? No one has shone at 10 for the Lions yet and he is in the form of his life.

This is the end of Gatland, NZ won't want him after this negative tour. Wales need to move on from this endless dross of running it through the 12 channel. North and Watson never had the ball today.

Just so negative with the players The Lions have.

I'm done, off to find a decent pint.

No9 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:The WRU have announced that they will have a group holiday in SA in 2021.

Keep posting this drivel and anti Lions thread PLEASE.... That way, if you are out in NZ on tour (which I doubt), you may just end up with a Data Roaming Bill of a few £1000s when you get back, You do realise that NZ isn't in Europe and subject to the new data roaming rules!!! That, on top of the £1000s it would have cost you to get out there will soon take the smile off your smug face..  

Don't worry I'll put it through my companies books.

No9 wrote:

EST wrote:

No9 wrote:Good God..

What a bunch of morons on here...

The call ups are needed to cover the MIDWEEK games only, so that the possible Test players don't have to warm mid-week benches. That's makes perfect sense.

Now, with a game on Tuesday and one a week later, and with it taking over a week to get over jet lag, why would you bring any players in that would not have time to acclimatise. Hence, you bring in players already there or in neighbouring time zones.

So, what cover is needed.

1. Scrum Half - yes, only 3 on tour, need a 4th to give 2 per team breakdown. Who's the best available, simple Gareth Davies way above Ali Price or Pyrgos.

2. Fly Half - Yes, again only 3 on tour, need a 4th. Finn Russell obvious and just announced called up. Wasn't going to announce it BEFORE they played Australia or during the Lions game, so keep your hair on guys, it was just a timing thing.

The 2 call ups above also work out on experienced partnerships, ie Russell/Laidlaw and Biggar/Davies, as they are the expected midweek half-backs for the remaining games.  The still have chance to put their hands up for a Test spot, but that's going to be tough.

As for the other call-ups, not 100% sure they are needed, as there does seem to be cover in those spots, and also not sure they will feature.

But if you (English) really want to drag an English player from Argentina, at the end of a season, for them to break themselves playing in one mid-week game (as that's all they could do) then you need your head examined.

I dont think anybody is complaining about Davies or Russell, it's the other four which are terrible decisions.  Why not pick Gray over Hill?  He picked Russell, so it's obviously not the distance.

Ever thought he may have sounded Gray and the Scottish management out, and said.... "We need cover, there's no guarantee of a game, are you interested..." and Gray said "NO!!".. We do know that Russell and Davies will get games, even if off the bench, as they don't have the depth at 9 and 10, but the others may simply be for training cover, and Gats may not want to insult players like Gray for that role...

If this was earlier in the tour, even last week, with more chance of the replacements being able to have an impact, maybe I'd be more critical, but to me the decision isn't a problem. Just too many out there with bruised egos looking for a problem.

I actually predicted this happening on a thread 2 weeks ago, but cant find where I said it... (not the actual individuals called up, but the approach of calling up from the Welsh squad in NZ).

I very much doubt that Gray would have been insulted. If Gats had gone about this in a different way, it would have been received as the honour it should be. Instead, he has called up some blokes to be cannon fodder....why not approach Gray and say 'you're in for the rest of the tour, this is the role I want you to fill, but if you play well and if there are a few injuries, you're in with a chance'.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:So is Russell cannon fodder or can he maybe muscle his way into the tests? No one has shone at 10 for the Lions yet and he is in the form of his life.

No not cannon fodder. I reckon he will partner Laidlaw in one or both (remaining) mid-week games. And with only 2 favoured 10s (Farrell and Sexton) in the lead spots, there is a real opportunity to make a claim for the 3rd spot against Biggar. With Farrell already carrying an injury and the way Sexton can break easily, I think there's a good chance the 3rd choice 10, will feature in the 3rd (or maybe 2nd) test.