Ulster 2016/2017

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Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 5:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Redman wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Any inside info on Dom Ryan yet? 27 and the only IQ backrower not tied up for next year. Where do you put his out of interest in a pecking order? Better or worse than Clive Ross? My hunch is better, but I've not really ever watched him closely.

Has to be better.  I looked him up before and he has something like 100 or so caps for Leinster.  Ross has about 50 for us, and it's got to be tougher to get a cap for Leinster than it is for Ulster in the backrow - even allowing for international call ups.  

Dryan ®, as he shall be known if he signs, also has 20 or so U20 caps.  

That said, I haven't seen him play.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 10:42 am

I can't remember what Cave did wrong to become "a break glass option". The reality is that aside from Payne he has been our most consistent player at 13 both in attack and defence. The rest have been guilty of more than a few brain farts and defensive errors.

Marshall needs to move back to 12 and remain there as a solid option. He can be "classy" but he is guilty of making some howlers. He makes some extremely well timed pop passes though that often puts other players (such as Stockdale) into space. I would be happy to see Stockdale at 13 with Marshall at 12 but there are question marks over that combination defensively. Then again, that has been the case for all of our centre partnerships.

Frustratingly, how many games has Marshall actually played at 12 this season? Why are they persisting with something that doesn't work? As for Olding, it won't matter where he plays. His injuries come from typical rugby plays. His first ACL was at 10, his second injury was sustained trying to beat a defender on the touchline and this ankle injury was fairly innocuous as well. Either he is unlucky or his body just can't cope.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 10:42 am

I will say this - having played with him at school I remember him getting frequently injured.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 12:07 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Redman wrote:Let's hope so.  Did look worrying.  

For me it's now about who will be going onto the summer tour.  I've totally lost interest in what happens against Leinster.  I suspect they'll send a kids team and even then we won't beat them.  


There will be a few old hands in with the kids - Healy, Toner, Heaslip come to mind but agreed largely kids.

I'd be happy with that. Realistically though I can't see Ulster having more than a handful being included.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 12:10 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Rumour doing the rounds that Kiss may retire.

Andy Ward, without naming names, gave it to him with both barrels on Radio - effectively saying the worst coach since Mark Williams and by some distance

After all that's happened it might be for the best. The job may just be too big for him.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 12:28 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:The more you analysis the more Kiss has been a joke.

Take just one aspect - 2 captains what a load of nonsense

1 doesn't even make the first XV and the other is a winger

Utter crap - and as an aside both are useless as captain - one just gets in a flap and cant handle the pressure and the other doesn't say boo to a goose on the rare occasion he talks to a ref

You couldn't make it up picard

Think its harsh blaming Kiss on that, the first choice isn't around enough to do the job, the second choice in Henry missed about 3 months of the season and Herring at the start of the season didn't seem like a bad choice as he usually did a good job in the past when he was captain.

Even when Trimble is listed as captain, Rory still seemed to take on the responsibility, that didn't seem to be the case yesterday

I do think we will see Henry get the job next season

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by eirebilly on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:06 pm

Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:19 pm

eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

From an Irish perspective I would be happy to see him move before we ruin him, in all honesty. Our track record is terrible. We have had some of the most talented backs in the country and none of them have progressed as they should have.

Question: was Les Kiss ever that highly rated when he was part of the Ireland coaching setup?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:24 pm

eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

You're the second person who has said that on this thread and my simple question is why?

Who was the last winger Leinster really brought on?

Adam Byrne is two years older than Stockdale and they have the same number of caps

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:25 pm

Henderson is probably the best example of how much we have cocked up. One of the most physical and talented players around but has a tendency to be a bit lazy. For a few years, injury stifled his development but he was putting in big and aggressive performances. Now he has really regressed and needs direction. He should be considered in the same league as the likes of Itoje, Retallik and Etzebeth but he isn't.

His little side step before every carry is useless, he rarely makes ground and he doesn't tackle properly. In general our players tackle very high to engage the choke tackle but it rarely works anymore. We just concede ground every time.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by wayne on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:25 pm

Just watched the game back on BBC NI I player, crucial decisions by players on both sides decided that match.
1 Trimble coming inside to help in tackling Ashley Beck when not needed allowed Habberfield to sneak in the corner poor by the captain.
2 Stockdale refusing to pass back inside when the supporting player was in a better position, after breaking through a number of tackles.
3 The error on 2 was compounded for Leonard's try with Fonotia breaking through and could have probably carried the ball over the line, but no he passed inside to the better positioned player Leonard, who strolled over.
I'm not saying that the Coaches don't have the respect of either the players or the fans, not only on here, even a number at the game yesterday are bemused by us taking on Clarke. Yet those 2 instances quoted weren't the fault of any of the coaches, that was down to individual choices by a fairly experienced and a very experienced player. Not good at all.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:25 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

You're the second person who has said that on this thread and my simple question is why?

Who was the last winger Leinster really brought on?

Adam Byrne is two years older than Stockdale and they have the same number of caps

Because our track record with young talented backs who are bigged up as the next big thing is shocking.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:27 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

You're the second person who has said that on this thread and my simple question is why?

Who was the last winger Leinster really brought on?

Adam Byrne is two years older than Stockdale and they have the same number of caps

Ospreys have a good track record of pushing on wingers. Look what they did for Bowe! Maybe we should send him there. Tumbleweed

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:39 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

You're the second person who has said that on this thread and my simple question is why?

Who was the last winger Leinster really brought on?

Adam Byrne is two years older than Stockdale and they have the same number of caps

Because our track record with young talented backs who are bigged up as the next big thing is shocking.

So people big players up to be more than they are, Ulster can hardly be blamed for that?

What players have Leinster brought on in the last 10 years?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:44 pm

That is an element of course, that we over-hype our players, but it isn't just Ulster fans praising some of our most talented players. Marshall, McCloskey, Olding, Henderson, Gilroy...these players have put in noteworthy performances that have been noticed by other pundits and fans outside of Ireland. 

But the fact is that every one of these players have regressed in a bad way and not lived up to their potential. Ulster can absolutely be blamed for that.

Who have Leinster brought on in the last 10 years...the majority of the Ireland team?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:47 pm

Yeah folks, shipping off our most promising players is the best way to fix the problems we have.
Dumb and dumber have played the biggest part in Ulster's crap season IMO. Kiss is where the buck stops and I wouldn't mind at all if he followed them through the door mind you. A new, fresh coaching ticket will shake things up, whether it's a positive shake-up time will tell. It could hardly be worse. We need a few more added to the coaching team though. Perhaps the IRFU will help as they did with Leinster and Munster. Maybe not.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:49 pm

I can't help people not reading what I (or Billy for that matter) have said. Neither of us suggested it as a way to help Ulster. That would be moronic. It is for the progression of Stockdale as a player.

I'm an Irish fan first and Ulster fan second.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by eirebilly on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

You're the second person who has said that on this thread and my simple question is why?

Who was the last winger Leinster really brought on?

Adam Byrne is two years older than Stockdale and they have the same number of caps

I just feel the coaching set up and the style of play Leinster have would be far more beneficial to the development of Stockdale as a player. That said, if Ulster manage to get in some dynamic coaches then Stockdale would be well placed. Just think the lad has bucket loads of talent and potential that I can see being wasted at Ulster under the current status quo.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 1:58 pm

Not in the backs they don't Rory, they have Carberry and Ringrose who still have a lot to learn, McGrath looks like he's quality but then they have Sexton and Kearney who have broke through in Leinster over 10 years ago plus Henshaw who is a Connacht product.

With the likes of Marshall, Olding and McCloskey you are talking about three guys who play the same position so you can only give them so much game time, not to mention Marshall and Olding have had problems with injury. Henderson too has picked up an injury or too a season, I also wouldn't say Etzebeth has been putting in some great performances in recent times and Itoje at times too has been poor.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 2:01 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Is Ulster the best place for Stockdale to progress? He looks like a player that would fit in seamlessly to Leinster. This is no slight on Ulster but Stockdale would benefit more from Leinster than from Ulster in my opinion.

You're the second person who has said that on this thread and my simple question is why?

Who was the last winger Leinster really brought on?

Adam Byrne is two years older than Stockdale and they have the same number of caps

I just feel the coaching set up and the style of play Leinster have would be far more beneficial to the development of Stockdale as a player. That said, if Ulster manage to get in some dynamic coaches then Stockdale would be well placed. Just think the lad has bucket loads of talent and potential that I can see being wasted at Ulster under the current status quo.

The coaching setup that have got those performances from him you mean?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by eirebilly on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 2:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:
The coaching setup that have got those performances from him you mean?

Touché.

I don't think that what he does is coached. To me it is his individual skill, had it have been coached he may have passed earlier yesterday and set up a try. For his try, it was individual as well.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 2:22 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
The coaching setup that have got those performances from him you mean?

Touché.

I don't think that what he does is coached. To me it is his individual skill, had it have been coached he may have passed earlier yesterday and set up a try. For his try, it was individual as well.

You are making a huge assumption, for all you know he has been coached to either pass it or back himself and he backed himself then panicked and passed the ball rather than holding on and recycling or even releasing and getting back up like Fonotia did earlier in the game

Don't get me wrong I think there is a problem with the coaching at Ulster and hope that next seasons changes bring a new approach and culture, when Im at games watching the warm ups you see a contrast in intensity between Ulster and most other teams and I think thats were so many of errors come from at Ulster and many players will be in for a shock next season if Gibbes institutes the changes most expect and changes that are seriously required


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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 2:41 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can't help people not reading what I (or Billy for that matter) have said. Neither of us suggested it as a way to help Ulster. That would be moronic. It is for the progression of Stockdale as a player.

I'm an Irish fan first and Ulster fan second.

I am and always will be an Ulster fan first, a country mile in front of the International setup so any suggestion that Ulster players moving for the benefit of the Irish team will always boil my peesh.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 2:45 pm

That's fine, others may not share the same opinion.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 2:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:Not in the backs they don't Rory, they have Carberry and Ringrose who still have a lot to learn, McGrath looks like he's quality but then they have Sexton and Kearney who have broke through in Leinster over 10 years ago plus Henshaw who is a Connacht product.

With the likes of Marshall, Olding and McCloskey you are talking about three guys who play the same position so you can only give them so much game time, not to mention Marshall and Olding have had problems with injury. Henderson too has picked up an injury or too a season, I also wouldn't say Etzebeth has been putting in some great performances in recent times and Itoje at times too has been poor.

In the past couple of years alone Leinster have brought through Furlong, vdF, Leavy, Conan, Ringrose, McGrath, Byrne, Byrne, O'Loughlin, Carbery and probably more that I have missed out. All of the above players are or will be Irish internationals and most will (injury permitting) feature heavily in all Irish squads over the next 5 years or more. They are playing with confidence and there is competition. Anyway, can I just point out that it was Billy suggested Stockdale should move to Leinster. I didn't specify, I just suggested that he would be better elsewhere as there is a pattern with players of his calibre not developing as they should.

Ulster have failed their young players. You can make excuses, but the reality is that our young players have not lived up to their promise or potential. That is before even mentioning the academy system. I don't know what we are even arguing about - you agree that the coaching has been abysmal, no?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 3:17 pm

Sorry Rory you were saying?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He will need to sign for Leinster before we ruin him.

There is a difference between bringing through backs and forwards thats why I was asking about backs. Carberry and Ringrose right now are in the same position guys like Gilroy were in in the past. They are hugely talented but they have flaws in their game, being Ireland internationals doesn't mean they have fulfilled their potential as the Ulster players you criticise all are Ireland internationals.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 3:25 pm

Apologies, I didn't realise I had specified which particular team. All of my points still stand.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 3:37 pm

Rory to be honest I think all provinces have problems taking players to their full potential, I don't think Zebo or Earls have completely fulfilled their potential, there are players at Leinster who you could say the same about.

Those players who have come through have natural talent coupled with the right mentality, the Sextons etc who are just hard nosed winners

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 3:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:There is a difference between bringing through backs and forwards thats why I was asking about backs. Carberry and Ringrose right now are in the same position guys like Gilroy were in in the past. They are hugely talented but they have flaws in their game, being Ireland internationals doesn't mean they have fulfilled their potential as the Ulster players you criticise all are Ireland internationals.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Let's start with something we agree on - the coaching at Ulster is currently abysmal. Do you agree with this statement?

Next, what is the difference between bringing through backs and forwards? If anything, backs come through the system younger due to their natural ability and pace.

If Leinster didn't bring through many new players in the backs over a long period, that isn't comparable to the situation at Ulster. I'm talking about a scenario where you have numerous young players who are extremely talented yet regress significantly within a matter of years. They are two different scenarios. On the one hand there were few players coming through (in the backs) for a number of years which is a different problem, on the other you had talented youngsters who were coming through but they haven't come close to the heights predicted of them. Not one of the players mentioned are established in the starting Irish team.

It is merely hypothetical to suggest what may happen to Ringrose/Carbery/any of the new kids on the block for Leinster. The same thing may happen to them that has happened to our players, but we don't know. We do know that Ringrose is already an established Irish player (unless Payne takes the 13 shirt back which I highly doubt) and that Leinster have been demolishing teams with a team of kids, essentially.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 3:43 pm

Earls and Zebo are both Lions, have won trophies and have 59 and 33 caps respectively for the Ireland team. Of course players are overhyped and do not reach the unrealistic expectations, but there is a difference between that and what is happening with our players. I'm saying there has been significant decline in the performances of our young star players.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 4:12 pm

No I wouldn't say its abysmal, Id say it is a problem though and I dont think the coaches can take all the blame. I think there is a cultural and systemic problem that needs addressed, we are too bloody nice and want to be liked, Saracens, Toulon, Munster and Leinster don't care if you like them but you do fear and respect them.

Like I said earlier I think Ulster aren't training at full intensity and thats were the mistakes are coming from, when you are doing ok in training at 70/80% it may look good but when you step up and things are more ferocious and you are having to think quicker its easier to make those mistakes.

How you can call Ringrose an established Irish international is baffling when he has 8 caps, one of which was against Canada and has missed out when both Payne and Henshaw are available in the centre.

As for Zebo and Earls being Lions, now that Henderson is a Lion is your criticism of his development null and void?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 4:27 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That's fine, others may not share the same opinion.

There are plenty who do, most Ulster supporters I'd suspect

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 4:35 pm

Yeah, I'm well aware most people seem to put club before country.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by eirebilly on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 4:36 pm

Just for clarity, I would not wish for Stockdale to leave Ulster. I am simply saying that he is the perfect type of player for the Leinster system. I feel that the current coaching at Ulster may not be one that will enable his further development.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 4:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:No I wouldn't say its abysmal, Id say it is a problem though and I dont think the coaches can take all the blame. I think there is a cultural and systemic problem that needs addressed, we are too bloody nice and want to be liked, Saracens, Toulon, Munster and Leinster don't care if you like them but you do fear and respect them.

Like I said earlier I think Ulster aren't training at full intensity and thats were the mistakes are coming from, when you are doing ok in training at 70/80% it may look good but when you step up and things are more ferocious and you are having to think quicker its easier to make those mistakes.

How you can call Ringrose an established Irish international is baffling when he has 8 caps, one of which was against Canada and has missed out when both Payne and Henshaw are available in the centre.

As for Zebo and Earls being Lions, now that Henderson is a Lion is your criticism of his development null and void?

From the sound of things, and I have no inside knowledge whatsoever, Kiss has totally lost the backing of the players. I hear rumours of scuffles between the coaches. Training having to be cancelled early. I can't verify any of it, but the performances would suggest something is going on. If that is the case, that is quite serious. The players don't seem to have any idea what they are doing, our defence is suddenly awful, and everyone looks disinterested or dejected.

Who is in charge of the training sessions? Where did you hear that Ulster aren't training at full intensity? That doesn't sound particularly well managed if that is the case. Surely that is a coaching issue?

A 22 year old earning 8 caps in his first year as the starting 13 is better than anything our players have achieved. It isn't baffling at all - he was our starting 13 for the entirety of the Six Nations. Payne is over 30 and I think Ringrose has done enough to justify his position. He won't be dropped barring injury. If he is you can tell me I'm wrong, but I really can't see it happening.

Being a Lion was just one example I gave of the merits of Zebo and Earls. Henderson is a phenomenal player who has completely fallen off the pace recently (for Ulster, which is even more telling) and it is an almost unanimous opinion that he is very lucky to be on the tour. Are you really suggesting otherwise?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 4:53 pm

To be honest I think some of this is phoney outrage because I suggested Stockdale would be better off playing for a team where he will actually be properly coached and developed. Blasphemy.

Is anyone really arguing that the current Ulster setup is not a toxic environment and our players look disinterested? If not, what are the objections to my rather simple observation that the consequence has been the regression of our most talented youngsters? Flip me, we've even made Charles Piatau look like a typical Pro 12 level Pacific Islander who breaks a couple of tackles and throws a few wild offloads.

I hope that all of this is fixable. I still want Hendy, Olding and so on to live up to their potential. I'm not sure it is with Kiss involved.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 5:23 pm

Rory I didn't say I know they aren't training at full intensity but having observed the pregame sessions and the mistakes in games, it's the impression Im getting.

Your suggestion is that Stockdale will struggle to reach his potential at Ulster, I beg to differ, it's at Ulster he has been given his opportunity, just like Rob Lyttle has too and Rory Scholes did before he left.

As for Ringrose, Luke Marshall had a similar record at the same age but had an established and successful ahead of him that restricted his appearances then injuries have hampered him to the extent he didn't get another cap for two years

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 8:35 pm

What all the Ulster players need, including Stockdale, is quality coaching.

They have received the opposite for last 2 years and have gone backwards as a result.

What is best for Irish rugby is to rectify that problem.
Gibbes is the best coach we will have in the professional era, McCalls improvement after he left not withstanding.
IF he is given full control our players will improve as most of the 1st XV have the skill set required.


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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 8:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The more you analysis the more Kiss has been a joke.

Take just one aspect - 2 captains what a load of nonsense

1 doesn't even make the first XV and the other is a winger

Utter crap - and as an aside both are useless as captain - one just gets in a flap and cant handle the pressure and the other doesn't say boo to a goose on the rare occasion he talks to a ref

You couldn't make it up picard

Think its harsh blaming Kiss on that, the first choice isn't around enough to do the job, the second choice in Henry missed about 3 months of the season and Herring at the start of the season didn't seem like a bad choice as he usually did a good job in the past when he was captain.

Even when Trimble is listed as captain, Rory still seemed to take on the responsibility, that didn't seem to be the case yesterday

I do think we will see Henry get the job next season

Not harsh at all

Errors in the appointments

Naming 2 not 1 captain is dumb - smacks of dithering and creates confusion
Naming a captain who doesn't make the 1st XV is wrong
Naming a winger as captain is wrong
Naming a man , Trimble, who doesn't speak out to officials, on the pitch is wrong.
Ignoring better qualified players is dumb

The answer was simple
Henry captain and de Merwe VC
Henry is best qualified as you suggest and de Merwe would have done a decent job when he was injured and was pack leader for the first half of the season anyway.
We have a stupid idea on not naming NIQ players - why not - if he is best for the role give it to him

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 8:53 pm

Should point out Cave definitely not fit and probably not Ludik

Both mothballed for the season I believe


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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 9:18 pm

The question is - will Gibbes be given the keys or forced to sit in the passenger seat?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 9:35 pm

That is the 64 thousand dollar question.

My gut feeling is if Kiss goes he will run the show, if not then more depressing muddle to follow.

Just got fingers crossed he would not have come here to play 2nd fiddle

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 01 May 2017, 8:24 am

geoff999rugby wrote:What all the Ulster players need, including Stockdale, is quality coaching.

They have received the opposite for last 2 years and have gone backwards as a result.

What is best for Irish rugby is to rectify that problem.
Gibbes is the best coach we will have in the professional era, McCalls improvement after he left not withstanding.
IF he is given full control our players will improve as most of the 1st XV have the skill set required.


Exactly Geoff, that's the fix that's needed and hopefully what we're getting. The previous suggestions are utterly laughable exhibiting complete distain for Ulster. The players will be getting coached for a nice change. From recent displays it seems coaching wasn't just sub-standard but missing completely.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 01 May 2017, 9:24 am

For the last time, I wasn't suggesting a fix for Ulster. I don't have one, to me the problems lie with the people running the show. Obviously I don't hold disdain for Ulster but for the very people who are ruining the rugby province. Neither myself nor anyone else know if things actually will improve under Gibbes either, that is completely hypothetical and again our track record with coaches is poor. If Gibbes is held on a leash then we are in for the same mistakes all over again.

I also find it slightly amusing that words such as "disdain" are thrown about when after the past few horrendous displays all I have been reading is how people won't watch them play again this season, won't renew their season ticket etc. Let's not point fingers.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 01 May 2017, 9:40 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The more you analysis the more Kiss has been a joke.

Take just one aspect - 2 captains what a load of nonsense

1 doesn't even make the first XV and the other is a winger

Utter crap - and as an aside both are useless as captain - one just gets in a flap and cant handle the pressure and the other doesn't say boo to a goose on the rare occasion he talks to a ref

You couldn't make it up picard

Think its harsh blaming Kiss on that, the first choice isn't around enough to do the job, the second choice in Henry missed about 3 months of the season and Herring at the start of the season didn't seem like a bad choice as he usually did a good job in the past when he was captain.

Even when Trimble is listed as captain, Rory still seemed to take on the responsibility, that didn't seem to be the case yesterday

I do think we will see Henry get the job next season

Not harsh at all

Errors in the appointments

Naming 2 not 1 captain is dumb - smacks of dithering and creates confusion
Naming a captain who doesn't make the 1st XV is wrong
Naming a winger as captain is wrong
Naming a man , Trimble, who doesn't speak out to officials, on the pitch is wrong.
Ignoring better qualified players is dumb

The answer was simple
Henry captain and de Merwe VC
Henry is best qualified as you suggest and de Merwe would have done a decent job when he was injured and was pack leader for the first half of the season anyway.
We have a stupid idea on not naming NIQ players - why not - if he is best for the role give it to him

Gregor Townsend named two captains so is he also a dumb coach?

Ulster don't have leaders on the pitch and haven't had since Muller (NIQ) left. Best already has too much workload with the Ireland gig, but it would have made more sense to have him and Herring share the role on the pitch with Rob handling the media and promotional duties. Coetzee seems the most likely successor to be captain as he has the attributes required and Chris Henry is not guaranteed first choice, with Botha and Reidy both ahead of him.

Kiss as DoR has cleared out the coaches who haven't been performing, and replaced them with a potentially good pairing - which is his job.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 01 May 2017, 9:50 am

Has Kiss been performing? Does he have the respect of his players? I'm hearing otherwise.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 01 May 2017, 10:19 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Has Kiss been performing? Does he have the respect of his players? I'm hearing otherwise.

Kiss should be operating at a level largely divorced from the players. I'm hearing that he has plenty to occupy him, outside of the first team performance. The reality is that Ulster have still had significant backrow problems this season, so to qualify for Europe was the only realistic goal once Coetzee got injured.

Ulster's pack hasn't been organised since Muller left, and now the backs are suffering the same malaise. Letting Clarke and Doak go is fairly decisive pruning and recruiting Gibbes and Peel seems like good business. Ulster's problem is in the pack so Gibbes should have the experience and gravitas to sort it out. Being overall head coach ties the forward performance to that of the backs who have been trying to play a fast game with bad ball. Peel will hopefully bring some fresh ideas but his experience as a scrumhalf should produce a game where the new 9s can be effective within their abilities.

Speak to Rory Best and ask what he thinks of Les Kiss - I'd be surprised if you hear anything negative.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 01 May 2017, 10:47 am

Surely we are beyond "Ulster's problem is in the pack" at this stage. If anything, some members of the pack have really stood up recently. The backline is poor, our attack is poor, our defence is poor, our set piece is poor...

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by rodders on Mon 01 May 2017, 1:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Is anyone really arguing that the current Ulster setup is not a toxic environment and our players look disinterested?

Yes. Something is clearly not right.

The first thing that is obvious is the lack of effort and the body language, players just seem to have given up this season. The fact that it seems to have gotten worse even since Doak and Clarke were announced as moving on would make me concerned that they were not the issue. There seems to be a similar malaise at Connacht this year.

A further issue is this regressing and stagnation of young players like Olding, McCloskey etc. , even Henderson has been poor for us. Coaching seems to be a real issue with players not developing themselves once they've established in the 1st team.

Hopefully Gibbs will turn things around but the performances in the pro 12 in particular have been pretty worrying.

Piatua has been shocking too and looks like he can't wait to finish his contract.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 01 May 2017, 1:55 pm

I've been hearing the same as you Rory players on the whole do not hold Kiss in high regard and some consider him a joke.

Also our situation has gone way beyond our forwards aren't good enough.

Our defence isn't good enough.
Our attack isn't good enough.
Our set piece isn't good enough.
Selection in the backs is bizarre.

The place is a shambles.

As to Botha and Reid being ahead of Henry, as 7's no way.
Ulster see those two as our No 8's Henry is still in pole position as our open side.

Two captains don't work for Ulster Glasgow may well have clear distinction as to responsibilities Ulster have been making it as they go along and it shows.
I repeat two players singularly ill equipped to captain the side

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 01 May 2017, 1:58 pm

Of course Rory Best will not say anything negative about Kiss in public no player will.

That does not mean they don't have a diffferent opinion privately

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

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