Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

Redman wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Any inside info on Dom Ryan yet? 27 and the only IQ backrower not tied up for next year. Where do you put his out of interest in a pecking order? Better or worse than Clive Ross? My hunch is better, but I've not really ever watched him closely.

Has to be better.  I looked him up before and he has something like 100 or so caps for Leinster.  Ross has about 50 for us, and it's got to be tougher to get a cap for Leinster than it is for Ulster in the backrow - even allowing for international call ups.  

Dryan ®, as he shall be known if he signs, also has 20 or so U20 caps.  

That said, I haven't seen him play.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Chris Henry is not guaranteed first choice, with Botha and Reidy both ahead of him.

I think Henrys been one of our biggest losses, at the end of last season and start of this Reidy seemed to have developed his jackeling and breakdown skills but recently he seems almost afraid to go for the ball at the breakdown. There were a few occasions he was first man to a tackle on an Ospreys player and he stood off when he could have got in over the ball and at least slowed things down

geoff999rugby wrote:I've been hearing the same as you Rory players on the whole do not hold Kiss in high regard and some consider him a joke.

Also our situation has gone way beyond our forwards aren't good enough.

Our defence isn't good enough.
Our attack isn't good enough.
Our set piece isn't good enough.
Selection in the backs is bizarre.

I posted the stats earlier in the season showing the number of tries scored and conceded, we statistically had one of the best attacks and defences around but was what missing was just how long we spent in the opposition 22 and how long the opposition spent in ours. Earlier in the season we were spending long periods in the opposition half, like we did in the second half on Saturday, but compared to the number of times we were getting over the line I'd bet any money the conversation rate was a lot higher for the opposition than for Ulster. As the seasons went on the attack has gotten worse and exposed the defence.

Paul Marshall on Saturday was the first in a while to seem to value the territorial game, in the past Jackson and Pienaar would throw in a kick to gain some yards and guys like Luke Marshall would supplement it but recently we seem intent on just running the ball from everywhere and when you have a problem making yards and rely on individual creativity in a team seemingly devoid of morale and spark, you won't get very far and create a vicious cycle.

I don't have the connections some of you guys have but prior to coming in the rumblings about Kiss were he was a very good coach, the Irish setup for all its faults under Kidney etc seemed to be a good one so maybe the jobs easier when things go well and you don't have to make the big choices. One things for sure, next season will be an interesting one

So.... haven't been on here all weekend, and avoided the score hoping somebody would upload the game but they didn't.

I'm not sure if I'm even bothered about the loss... I've perhaps got no more effs to give.

The only think I came here to say having just watched the highlights - Stockdale has to be a nailed on starter next season.

I do not know the last time I saw an Ulster player not only have the pace, but the strength and audacity to fend off three would be tacklers. The guy is a raw natural class act - let's hope we don't almost ruin him like we seem to have done with Mccloskey, henderson, olding and luke...

Furthermore, his performances kinda blow the myth out of the water that our 'stars' are only struggling to shine because they are playing along side numpties.

#stockdaleforcaptain

Andy Ward wrote:We had more success with Neil Doak as coach than under Les Kiss. So why is Neil going? It was the same thing with Brian McLaughlin

When exactly did we have any success under Neil Doak?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39771315

I think Ward is a chum of Doak. Maybe Ward is part of the Old Boys network? That aside, I wouldn't be disappointed to see Kiss get the boot. I don't believe he is a good enough coach. I do believe he has lost the players.

Kiss will still be with us next season, and hopefully he will allow Gibbes to run the senior side without any input from him. I'm not confident that he will though. I'm also very concerned as to who coaches defense. If it's Kiss then we are doomed.
That said, Gibbes will make a big difference to our pack, regardless of Kiss, and I fully expect to be back in the top 4 next season. We won't win anything if Kiss doesn't step back though.

marty2086 wrote:

Andy Ward wrote:We had more success with Neil Doak as coach than under Les Kiss. So why is Neil going? It was the same thing with Brian McLaughlin

When exactly did we have any success under Neil Doak?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39771315

We made the playoffs. Anyway, Les Kiss sounds so nervous in that interview. He sounds like a broken man for goodness sake.

[quote="Rory_Gallagher"]

marty2086 wrote:

Andy Ward wrote:We had more success with Neil Doak as coach than under Les Kiss. So why is Neil going? It was the same thing with Brian McLaughlin

When exactly did we have any success under Neil Doak?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39771315

We made the playoffs. Anyway, Les Kiss sounds so nervous in that interview. He sounds like a broken man for goodness sake.[/quote

Doak was only in charge for something like 11 games in the league, Kiss came in in June through to just before Halloween then returned in March. During that time we lost 4 games, we lost 6 all season in the league.

Im not saying that means Kiss is better as we have slowly went backwards over the last 3 years and even faster this season and the players even seem fed up now

Consider the following:
1. Both games v Munster were more shoulda' won that coulda' won. Paddy's missed 'easy' penalties being the difference.
2. Reidys tackle debacle against Scarlets. Without it we were heading towards a win.
3. Adverse weather at Ravenhill versus Treviso meant we didn't get the bonus point.
4. Coetzee was injured for the season and his leadership alone most likely would have made the difference in a couple of games.

If these 4 examples of where lady luck went AWOL had been different we'd be sitting pretty awaiting the semi-final and the players may well have a different attitude. How then would we feel about our season? Any different?

I am just dying to see what the new season brings with a new set of eyes on things and hopefully a better structure for the players and coaches alike. I would hope sense will prevail re: Kiss' role but time will tell.

What incentive would Kiss have to diminish his own role, though? That's why I'm concerned. If he really is the problem (or part of it) for the toxic environment, and I have no idea whether he is or not, then nothing will be solved.

Pete330v2 wrote:
Consider the following:
1. Both games v Munster were more shoulda' won that coulda' won. Paddy's missed 'easy' penalties being the difference.
2. Reidys tackle debacle against Scarlets. Without it we were heading towards a win.
3. Adverse weather at Ravenhill versus Treviso meant we didn't get the bonus point.
4. Coetzee was injured for the season and his leadership alone most likely would have made the difference in a couple of games.

If these 4 examples of where lady luck went AWOL had been different we'd be sitting pretty awaiting the semi-final and the players may well have a different attitude. How then would we feel about our season? Any different?

I am just dying to see what the new season brings with a new set of eyes on things and hopefully a better structure for the players and coaches alike. I would hope sense will prevail re: Kiss' role but time will tell.

Pete I don't disagree about luck but if you are winning games you negate luck, we were unlucky in a sense on Saturday having the eejit that is Lacey as ref but still should have won the game, the Treviso game we should have got the BP but we twice committed the same offence off a maul less than 10 yards out, that wasn't luck that was stupidity.

We can't rely on one player for leadership, we have plenty of players who have taken leadership roles in the past but that seems to be AWOL this season

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What incentive would Kiss have to diminish his own role, though? That's why I'm concerned. If he really is the problem (or part of it) for the toxic environment, and I have no idea whether he is or not, then nothing will be solved.

If Gibbes takes responsibility for the senior team, it frees Kiss up to look after everything else which it seems are areas he wants to improve. If he gets the development pathway working and producing more players and Ulster get silverware, he has overseen it. That looks good on the CV

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Surely we are beyond "Ulster's problem is in the pack" at this stage. If anything, some members of the pack have really stood up recently. The backline is poor, our attack is poor, our defence is poor, our set piece is poor...

Why are we beyond Ulster's problems in the pack when they haven't been fixed? The pack is still the foundation of the team and if the foundation is crumbling then anything built on it will also fall down.

Ulster's attack is poor because they have no carriers in the pack to create defensive holes. They have a worse red zone conversion rate than last season because they don't have the power of Nick Williams. Henderson isn't that man and for all Treadwell's and O'Connor's attributes they aren't either. Coetzee might have been, so Ulster were hostage to one man's fortune.
The backrow (Reidy aside) is so slow that if a back makes a break it results in a turnover because there is no support. Backs then try impossible offloads rather than go to ground because that is the only way the play has a chance of continuing.
Jackson is having to make a lot of tackles - not because the opposition attack his channel but because the backrow are awol. Good teams consistently see a forward (usually a flanker) topping the match tackle stats - how often has an Ulster forward made the top 3 this season?
One area of deterioration that Kiss has to be at the root cause of is the set piece demise as it is obvious that he has been trying to promote a fast off-loading game a la Glasgow. Franco has passed more this season than in his previous career, but it is obviously against his nature. In his time with Ulster VdM was consistently the top Pro12 lineout performer yet he has been sidelined by more mobile players like Treadwell, and Browne who have better hands. This also de-powers the scrum. It would be interesting to know if those players whom you heard had no respect for Kiss also had no ball-handling capabilities?

Ulster may have problems all over the park but until they start addressing the pack foundation, there is nothing to build on.

Jim Hamilton is coming to Ulster, or so he says on his twitty account.
2 year deal.

Pete330v2 wrote:Jim Hamilton is coming to Ulster, or so he says on his twitty account.
2 year deal.

Can't find that on his Twitter?

Hamilton thing is a joke I believe. At least I hope. Last thing we need is a lock who lacks mobility.

There's so much wrong it's hard to know where to start but the likes of Marshall, Olding etc haven't become bad players in the last year. Something is fundamentally wrong at ulster currently and we have to hope that Gibbes and Peel can sort that. Marshall held up at 13 defensively and offensively for a year so I don't think he can be nailed down to a position but I agree we shouldn't be wasting Stockdale. He needs to play be it at wing or 13. A clear direction is needed and Gibbes etc can provide it. I'm not as down on Kiss as perhaps I should be. He deserves a shot without being hamstrung by coaches but he has currently little credit. Its time to trust to younger forwards though

Standulstermen wrote:Hamilton thing is a joke I believe. At least I hope. Last thing we need is a lock who lacks mobility.

There's so much wrong it's hard to know where to start but the likes of Marshall, Olding etc haven't become bad players in the last year. Something is fundamentally wrong at ulster currently and we have to hope that Gibbes and Peel can sort that. Marshall held up at 13 defensively and offensively for a year so I don't think he can be nailed down to a position but I agree we shouldn't be wasting Stockdale. He needs to play be it at wing or 13. A clear direction is needed and Gibbes etc can provide it. I'm not as down on Kiss as perhaps I should be. He deserves a shot without being hamstrung by coaches but he has currently little credit. Its time to trust to younger forwards though

On the Marshall/Olding/McCloskey versus Stockdale thing - why is coaching getting blamed for a dip in form for the former, when Stockdale's ability seems to be immune? Is he just that good? Or is he still excited about Ulster Rugby and not been with the senior setup long enough yet to become despondent??

For me, it can't be coaching per se, but rather attitude and camp mood.

We have the likes of McCloskey and Henderson who had previously been thought of as beasts looking unable to punch a hole in a paper bag. That's effort is it not? That's sheer grit and determination. OK, some actual skill level has taken a hit, but primarily there seems a complete absence of fire in the belly or enjoyment in their play.

geoff999rugby wrote:The more you analysis the more Kiss has been a joke.

Take just one aspect - 2 captains what a load of nonsense

1 doesn't even make the first XV and the other is a winger

Utter crap - and as an aside both are useless as captain - one just gets in a flap and cant handle the pressure and the other doesn't say boo to a goose on the rare occasion he talks to a ref

You couldn't make it up

Welcome to the club, Geoff!! I called Kiss out last season and again earlier this year. While Doak and Clarke are undoubtedly part of the problem, I don't even understand how or why Kiss got the job in the first place. No experience at this level. A career assistant coach, with a background in rugby league, who landed on his feet with the Irish set-up. We have underperformed in his time here and the trend is worrying. Rather than signs of improvement, it looks like it's heading in the other direction.

Still, I'm hopeful that if he is replaced with the right man (and there are plenty of candidates out there), and with Gibbes & Peel coming on board, that the ship can be righted quite quickly. We have the players - the only concern being scrum half in my opinion - with a nice blend of youth and experience. I actually see lots of potential in our pack and we have plenty of firepower in the backs. We lack a set of principles and a vision of how we want to play the game (i.e."the Ulster way") which should define the fundamentals of our coaching, gameplanning and recruitment. Hold Saracens as the perfect example of that type of harmony - they recruit, coach and mentor their players to play in a particular way. It might not be attractive, and I'm not saying that we want Ulster to play with that style, but it's the manner in which they are able to focus all their rugby activity throughout the club in line with a defined strategy.

We lack that at Ulster. Kiss, Doak, Clarke - and indeed, Logan - are to blame for that. They have not created an environment which has got the best (or even close to the best!) from the players and talent at their disposal.

Doak was effectively sideline this year.
Which means that since Bararak left Kiss has been in sole charge of attack and defence.
The shambles in both in 2017 can be landed at nobodies door but his

Clive any dip in form by Marshall is because he is being played in the wrong position, a Kiss decision.
McCloskey hasn't played for 3 months and he does not have a problem making ground his problem are defensive and in large part that is organisational, that's Down to Kiss.
Stockdale makes more ground, in part, because he plays in the back 3 you always make more ground there.
He is a very exciting prospect but at the same time people here more forgiving of his errors - against Munster he was the weakest Irish qualified back.
Mulitilpe knock ons and poor positioning.
Just because he says he prefers 13 doesn't mean he should play there. It is the most complex position defensively.
Play alongside Payne and Cave next year learn from them

I can't blame the players.
Coaches in chaos, don't talk to each other.
Training sessions cancelled because of a stand up row between them.
That is totally toxic.
Been told Bararak left because he couldn't believe what a farce it was

My backs for next year

10 - Jackson backup Olding + Nelson
12 - Marshall+McCloskey
13 - Payne backup Cave
11/14 - Piatau, Trimble, Stockdale backup Gilroy + Lyttle
15 - Ludik backup Olding + Nelson

Forget Bowe I believe he is effectively finished

While we are all obviously aghast - for obvious reasons - at what's happening on the pitch, does it seem to anyone else that we seem to be making some headway off the pitch, certainly in breaking the stranglehold the schools have on youngsters? I honestly think that if Gibbes can get on with head coaching, Kiss night not be bad as a David Humphreys-style DOR.

I agree with GA to an extent, if Kiss has been shackled with two buck eejits then he does deserve the opportunity to operate without them. As UiK points out he is inexperienced as a head coach, even for an experienced coach it can't be an easy situation to deal with, especially if he is now having to take on some of their responsibilities all while dealing with other duties it would seem he is at least spread thin. It is a situation does also need to take responsibility for their boss he needs to be able to deal with these situations though it is usually.

Geoff, you mention Marshall playing 13. Right now most of our 13s are unavailable and Stockdales defence isn't there at the minute and playing 13 regularly may not be an option right now. The surprise though is that Piutau isn't considered an option there. Given our options at 12, experience at 13 for Marshall may not be a bad thing for him and Ulster.

Some though are hoping that Kiss either walks or steps back from the coaching/selection element of the role but then we are in a similar situation whereby we have a coach picking the team who hasn't had that responsibility before and he and Ulster are entering the unknown.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Jim Hamilton is coming to Ulster, or so he says on his twitty account.
2 year deal.

Can't find that on his Twitter?

http://www.uafc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7414&start=12750

On t'other forum they posted a screencapture from twitty. I do hope it untrue or if true in a coaching capacity or maybe waterboy.

Marshall played games at 13 when Cave was available.
Piatau handling and Positional sense aren't great for 13.
I would have played Olding at 13 , better defensive organiser than Marshall.
Or even better Ludik who may well have been fit the last 2 week although I am not 100% certain.

Why should Ulster suffer while Kiss learns his trade?

I hope Hamilton comes hard nosed bas****d of the highest order who may well help coach the forwards which increases the possibility Gibbs's is the main man.

To be honest I think/pray he is and thinking about it why would he take a step down from Clermont forwards coach to Ulster forwards coach, there has to be more in it for him

I agree Marty. I know it sounds like a broken record but I think Kiss should be given a chance with a functional coaching infrastructure behind him. If he's had to do the entire job because dumb and dumber couldn't play their part then is it any wonder we're in this mess. We've not had a settled, functional coaching team is how many seasons? The waves from the collision between the IRFU tinkering and the Ulster 'jobs for the boys' mentality have yet to settle. Perhaps now's the time to allow just that.

Geoff, Im not saying that he be allowed to learn his trade. What I'm saying is that if Gibbes is the main man as you say, we are essentially back to square one as him as a head coach is the unknown. As great as he is as a forwards coach he could be an awful head coach, we just don't know what we are getting.

On Hamilton my first thought was how the hell would he know who Titti Von Tramp is and I found this

https://www.acast.com/therugbypod/episode-22---titti-von-tramp

If that tweet is genuine he is coming to Ulster the Titty Von Tramp reference is a Belfast reference

Gibbs's has a hell of a lot more going for him than Kiss when joined.
Kiss has been dining of the choke tackle for years and what has been particularly worrying is our defence, supposedly his speciality, has deteriorated since he took sole charge.
I take your point though, just think, if nothing else, he will push them hard and will not be afraid of knocking egos out of joint.
Given the toxic environment we need that and Hamilton will help in that as his assistant.

marty2086 wrote:Geoff, Im not saying that he be allowed to learn his trade. What I'm saying is that if Gibbes is the main man as you say, we are essentially back to square one as him as a head coach is the unknown. As great as he is as a forwards coach he could be an awful head coach, we just don't know what we are getting.

On Hamilton my first thought was how the hell would he know who Titti Von Tramp is and I found this

https://www.acast.com/therugbypod/episode-22---titti-von-tramp

Found that too Marty - initially thought it was just a humorous tweet after hearing about it Titti from Cave on the podcast, but then saw that this episode was recorded back in February and the tweet was only yesterday. Weird. I guess it could be photoshopped. But the screen capture even shows some replies under the tweet.
I've always disliked him as a player (which probably means Ulster could benefit from him). Maybe we need to sign ourselves an arseh0le...

Well with Clarke gone there is an opening for one clive

The Ulster Rugby medical team has issued an injury update ahead of this weekend's sold-out Guinness PRO12 fixture against Leinster.

Chris Henry is progressing well following a recent calf muscle tear and it is hoped that he'll be available for the clash at Kingspan Stadium on Saturday.

Ruan Pienaar (back spasm), Charles Piutau (elbow hyperextension) and Stuart McCloskey (left thigh haematoma) suffered injuries against Ospreys at the Liberty Stadium.

All three players are undergoing treatment and it's hoped that they will be available for selection versus Leinster.

Stuart Olding sustained a significant left ankle injury (versus Ospreys) and he will see an ankle specialist today (Wednesday) to decide on further management.

The following players are also unavailable for selection this weekend:
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Jared Payne (ankle)
Tommy Bowe (ankle)
Darren Cave (vestibular dysfunction)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Clive Ross (knee)
Lorcan Dow (ankle)
Johnny Simpson (neck)
Matthew Rea (hamstring)
Johnny McPhillips (groin)

marty2086 wrote:Well with Clarke gone there is an opening for one clive

What's the job description for an opening for an arseh0le?
Surely it's usually vacated?

clivemcl wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Hamilton thing is a joke I believe. At least I hope. Last thing we need is a lock who lacks mobility.

There's so much wrong it's hard to know where to start but the likes of Marshall, Olding etc haven't become bad players in the last year. Something is fundamentally wrong at ulster currently and we have to hope that Gibbes and Peel can sort that. Marshall held up at 13 defensively and offensively for a year so I don't think he can be nailed down to a position but I agree we shouldn't be wasting Stockdale. He needs to play be it at wing or 13. A clear direction is needed and Gibbes etc can provide it. I'm not as down on Kiss as perhaps I should be. He deserves a shot without being hamstrung by coaches but he has currently little credit. Its time to trust to younger forwards though

On the Marshall/Olding/McCloskey versus Stockdale thing - why is coaching getting blamed for a dip in form for the former, when Stockdale's ability seems to be immune? Is he just that good? Or is he still excited about Ulster Rugby and not been with the senior setup long enough yet to become despondent??

For me, it can't be coaching per se, but rather attitude and camp mood.

We have the likes of McCloskey and Henderson who had previously been thought of as beasts looking unable to punch a hole in a paper bag. That's effort is it not? That's sheer grit and determination. OK, some actual skill level has taken a hit, but primarily there seems a complete absence of fire in the belly or enjoyment in their play.

Too simplistic. Firstly, if there is infighting and the coaches have lost the trust of the players, then the attitude is going to be bad. So the poor attitude and camp mood is likely related to the poor coaching. A couple of players is one thing, an entire squad of disinterested players is something else. If it were just a couple of players anyway a good coach would have them dropped until they improved their attitude.

As for players not making as much ground...McCloskey made a ton of ground over the weekend. Henderson needs told to drop the head and carry properly instead of trying a silly step every carry. Again, a coach would correct that issue. Plus, it doesn't help when your carriers are taking static ball.

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Well with Clarke gone there is an opening for one clive

What's the job description for an opening for an arseh0le?
Surely it's usually vacated?

Some have theirs filled using improved flexibility

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Henderson needs told to drop the head and carry properly instead of trying a silly step every carry. Again, a coach would correct that issue. Plus, it doesn't help when your carriers are taking static ball.

Henderson and his half step forward one step left thing is infuriating and defences know its coming so now just grab a leg and he gets no where. If he took the ball a fraction deeper or come on to it from deeper he would achieve more but its not our body on the line

Olding's injury sounds worse than a fracture, based on that medical report. Nelson was out for over a year with his ankle injury.

marty2086 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Henderson needs told to drop the head and carry properly instead of trying a silly step every carry. Again, a coach would correct that issue. Plus, it doesn't help when your carriers are taking static ball.

Henderson and his half step forward one step left thing is infuriating and defences know its coming so now just grab a leg and he gets no where. If he took the ball a fraction deeper or come on to it from deeper he would achieve more but its not our body on the line

Surely a good coach could have him unlearn it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Henderson needs told to drop the head and carry properly instead of trying a silly step every carry. Again, a coach would correct that issue. Plus, it doesn't help when your carriers are taking static ball.

Henderson and his half step forward one step left thing is infuriating and defences know its coming so now just grab a leg and he gets no where. If he took the ball a fraction deeper or come on to it from deeper he would achieve more but its not our body on the line

Surely a good coach could have him unlearn it.

They should but the player has some responsibility too, fans plus opposition players and coaches have noted it surely he can see its not working and needs adjusting

What is a vestibular dysfunction?

Some sort of ear problem causing balancing problems, I think.

Basically caused by his recent bang on the head

It must have been some honeymoon

Ok thanks,

Back to Kiss, I think for his own sake he would want to take an upward and backward step from the 1st XV piece. If he does a proper DoR role then he can honestly pass at least some of the responsibility to Gibbs. And Gibbs can survive being brand new.
If Kiss is front and center for a 2017/18 season outside the top 4 and us underachieving again then he's almost certainly gone, and if the rumours are true that he's offered his resignation and it was turned down then Logan must be thinking he needs a replacement handy just in case.

Mark Best and Conor Joyce to Jersey.

Makes sense surplus to requirements

geoff999rugby wrote:Mark Best and Conor Joyce to Jersey.

Makes sense surplus to requirements

I hope I get sent there when I'm surplus to requirements. Anytime soon then!!!!!

Been posted elsewhere by someone who can be trusted that Ludik has been put on the naughty step due to a no show at training

Dom Ryan is apparently being chased by to 2 Prem clubs. I'm disappointed he hasn't had his head turned by Ulster especially with Jono coming on board.

Maybe when Gibbes gets his feet under the table he might be able to persuade some of his former charges to hit the M1 north. Mind you, looking from the outside in, UR doesn't seem to be too happy a place.....

Redman wrote:What is a vestibular dysfunction?

I had it, and still have some symptoms. It mainly causes a problem with balance, but hearing and visual impairments are also symptoms, as are fatigue and concentration levels. I had them all

Some recover quickly, some never do.

Munchkin is it contagious? Because it would explain some recent performances

marty2086 wrote:Munchkin is it contagious? Because it would explain some recent performances

Ha! Thankfully it isn't, even if some of those performances are symptomatic. Could be a collective turrets though

We've sent Jersey a few players over the years. If memory serves McKinney and Adair both went there. Am sure there were others too.

I see Heaney played for Doncaster in their 1st leg playoff with London Irish. Championship seems to be the level our Academy are producing at the minute.