Rome

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Rome

Post by Guest82 on Sat 13 May 2017, 11:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Interesting draw.

Murray v Fognini round 2
Dimitrov v Del Potro round 1
Djokovic v Kyrgios round 3

Murray/Stan in top half. Djokovic/Nadal in bottom half.
Projected qf
Murray v Raonic
Stan v Cilic
Nadal v Thiem
Djokovic v Nishikori

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 7:59 pm

Just as I say it, he loses a service game from 40-0. This will likely be a rather bad blow-out.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:01 pm

No dice 

No bottle job here. He's just not good enough yet to match this

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Re: Rome

Post by LuvSports! on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:03 pm

Is this Novak 2015/1st half 2016?

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:06 pm

As good as

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:07 pm

temporary21 wrote:No dice 

No bottle job here. He's just not good enough yet to match this
But he is also playing relatively poorly today.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:09 pm

Oh my it's a hatchet job. 

Welcome back Novak 

Notice the guru isn't with you (HINT HINT)

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:10 pm

He's being by forced into playing this bad. He's permanently rushed

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:13 pm

That was quite impressive from Novak. It will be interesting to see if he is back permanently or whether it is a one-off.

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:15 pm

temporary21 wrote:He's being by forced into playing this bad. He's permanently rushed
To some extent, maybe.  But even outside of that, he was playing relatively poorly.  It was closer to how he played the second set against Rafa in Barca than how he played yesterday.  The win over Rafa yesterday must have been quite emotional, and I think that showed in his game today.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:19 pm

I think people are extremely harsh on the guy.

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:21 pm

Here are the points so far this clay court season:

1. Nadal - 2680 pts
2. Thiem - 1350
3. Zverev - 1165
4. Djokovic - 1140
5. Ramos-Vinolas - 755
6. Goffin - 675
7. Pouille - 630
8. Cilic - 620
9. Cuevas - 585
10. Carreno-Busta - 440
11. Coric - 430
12. Raonic - 420
13. Murray - 370

I doubt Ramos-Vinolas will do much at RG but other than that I think the list is a decent reflection of who the top candidates to do well at RG are.

Nadal, Thiem, Zverev, Djokovic (though not necessarily in that order) are probably the top four favorites for me.  Goffin, Pouille, Cilic seem like a good choice for the second-tier.

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:21 pm

However good Novak is .. this is not the Thiem of yesterday

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:24 pm

temporary21 wrote:I think people are extremely harsh on the guy.
You mean the bottling thing?  I think he has had a little bit of bottling reputation for a while.  I cannot remember the matches, but I think there have been a few over the last 12-16 months or so where he kind of stumbled from positions where people thought he should not have.

But that may be just some bad luck too, nobody is saying he is like Almagro.

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:26 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:However good Novak is .. this is not the Thiem of yesterday
No question in my mind too.  Thiem was very poor today.  To me he looked like he was in it the first couple of games but it was hard going against a well playing Novak, and Thiem very quickly folded after that.  Thiem's play today reminded me very much of how he played against Rafa in Barca in 2nd set.

That said, Novak did look pretty good - definitely far better than a week ago.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:39 pm

Can just as easily being opponents upping their game on him. That's to be expected sometimes

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Re: Rome

Post by Guest82 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:40 pm

Well....RG just got interesting. Djokovic at this level wins it. This was probably the best match he's played since 2011. Interesting to see if he can keep it up.

Throw Thiem into the mix and Rafa's competition looks a bit tougher than it did 3 days ago.

Thiem has definitely been a bottler at times in his career. Not to say he hasn't been successful or that he will continue to do it. But it has definitely been the case previously. I'm a massive fan of his, he's one of my favourite players, I've followed his career and been frustrated at it many times.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 8:55 pm

I've still yet to be given more than one match that he bottled on though

Power hitters DO sometimes miss a lot especially when it's tight . Stan loses from decent positions sometimes too A three time champ can't be a bottler though

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Re: Rome

Post by Guest82 on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:03 pm

Rafa in Barcelona. Goffin in Monte Carlo. That's two from the past month.
He also played Djokovic in a hard court master last year and was 0/20 on break points (something daft like that)

He has struggled to play his best tennis at important times an awful lot.

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Re: Rome

Post by Guest82 on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:05 pm

Stan is the opposite. He rarely loses finals...if he gets to the latter stages he normally produces. Thiem is more consistent.

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:10 pm

If it was the same Thiem playing today, as played Rafa yesterday, then I'm left having to believe that Novak.. the player who has been totally off form for weeks, who has fired his whole coaching team, has suddenly woken up today and found his previous form ... really ??
Wow what did he have for breakfast : that leaves me with a huge question mark I think I chose to believe that Thiem was below par today Smile

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:11 pm

He "bottles" a lot against federer though.

He's "bottled" many big matches not in a slam final. There's a reason. He's not been in that many 

Of course in actuality he's just getting beat

What you're describing is the process of an up and coming player finding their way. Learning how to play consistently and match the best

You can't compare him to the 3 freaks of this current gen. normal rules don't apply to them

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:12 pm

Did you see the match haddie? It's worth a look just for scouting purposes

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:17 pm

Don't know what you mean by that I don't comment on matches I haven't seen. Thiem was not the same player as yesterday, I don't know if he bottled or was just plain intimidated by Novak so many players are; Thiem was aggressive yesterday, all guns blazing but not today. Novak got lucky imo

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:22 pm

Fair enough.

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Re: Rome

Post by sirfredperry on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:27 pm

Just wonder how much Thiem took out of himself emotionally as well as physically in the win over Rafa to only get the one game against Djoko.
   Certainly makes the French a bit more interesting and most will now be eager to see whether Rafa ends up in Djoko's half of the draw.

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sat 20 May 2017, 9:35 pm

Lets put it this way.. I wish Rafa had played Thiem today there is no question in my mind who would have won.Wink  Could even the Thiem of yesterday.. cope with five sets against Nadal Erm

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Re: Rome

Post by Jermaine2015 on Sat 20 May 2017, 10:34 pm

Can't wait for the final! Sascha is the heir apparent, Germany has waited along time for a new kid to make waves. Djokovic gunning for a 5th Italian open championship. Could be a classic

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sun 21 May 2017, 12:02 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:Novak.. the player who has been totally off form for weeks, who has fired his whole coaching team, has suddenly woken up today and found his previous form ... really ??
Wow what did he have for breakfast : that leaves me with a huge question mark I think I chose to believe that Thiem was below par today Smile
I think both are true.  Thiem was not playing very well today but also Djokovic was playing far better than last week.  For both of them, the question will be, how frequently can they reproduce the good form?

Thiem is a decent player and was great against Nadal, but it remains to be seen if his performance vs Nadal was a one-off or whether he can reach those heights consistently.

With Novak we know that he is - in theory at least - capable of playing high level tennis again, and again, and again.  He had done it in the past.  Even so, we do not know whether he all of a sudden turned a switch and will now be back to that consistency.  Loss of consistency is often one of the first signs of decline as a player ages.  They can still produce tennis at - or near - their best but what they used to be able to do over and over again, they no longer can.  It remains to be seen where Djoko is.

We will know much much more in three short weeks.

But certainly, yesterday's and today's matches added some intrigue to this year's RG.

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Re: Rome

Post by summerblues on Sun 21 May 2017, 12:04 am

temporary21 wrote:Of course in actuality he's just getting beat
But it is not that simple.  Some players do bottle/choke more than others.  It is not easy to ascertain from a few instances - a small sample does not allow to easily distinguish between plain bad luck/opponent stepping up/etc or true "bottling".  But it does not mean that bottling does not exist.

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Re: Rome

Post by Guest on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:07 am

After playing and beating Bedene 7-6 6-2 in the second round, Djokovic said he liked playing Bedene because playing Bedene he is able to get into a rhythm.

A player may develop a rhythm playing one player and appear great, but be unable to develop a rhythm playing another player and so appear not so great.

Clash of playing styles compared to a style that suits another style produces greatly differing performances.  There is a lot of variability in tennis.

It does look like Djokovic is refinding his mojo in time to put up a stout defence of his French Open title - the last grand slam title still remaining in his possession.

He has put a lot of effort into winning the French Open - is he going to relinquish it easily?  He also turns 30 on Monday - which might also be a kick to the system to realise he should maximise his chances to become Serbia's greatest ever sportsperson and to perhaps push ahead to try to surpass Sampras and Nadal's grand slam tally.  Perhaps the next Olympics could provide a focus for him - aim to be good enough to challenge for the gold medal and in the mean time work towards collecting more grand slams.

The only issue with all of this is that he has fired his entire coaching staff.


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Re: Rome

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:08 am

Djoko impressive? More like Thiem ran out of steam, physically and mentally after beating Rafa, and produced such a poor performance. Thiem is just so one dimensional, it's hard to like his game, for he's another power hitter, lacking in varieties. Other than hitting hard, there's simply no plan B from him.

Djoko just had to keep the ball in play, retrieving every ball and then Thiem would overhit and lost the point. Engaging in long rallies is what Djoko is very good at when everything else fails him. Djoko's opponents in this event are all playing into his hands - Bendene, Agut, Delpo and Thiem - all engaged in long rallies with him, doomed to fail.

I hope Zverev won't fall into the same trap; hope he gives Djoko a different look, moves Djoko around if he can and forces Djoko to hit more balls on the run; comes forward to attack at the net, etc.

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Re: Rome

Post by Calder106 on Sun 21 May 2017, 8:52 am

Djokovic has beaten Bedene, Bautista Agut, Del Porto and Thiem all in straight sets. Were they all playing badly on the day he played them. Both Del Potro and Thiem had beaten some good opponents along the way so were hardly out of form. Therefore I don't buy the he only looked impressive because his opponent didn't play well argument. You play the best tactics to beat the opposition.

We will see today if Djokovic's form upturn looks like it is going to continue. If so he becomes at least second favourite for the FO (would still make Nadal favourite).


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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sun 21 May 2017, 9:42 am

Bedene who was a QF took him to a tie break. Bautista Agut. ranked 20. correction here .. took him to three sets.. Del Po  ranked 32 took him to a tie break.  Wouldn't say that is entirely impressive for the world no 2.. Bearing in mind he thrashed Thiem who is ranked No 7. With Thiem only taking 1 game So I'm still left with a question mark. Did Thiem play badly or did Novak wake up with a brilliant change of form ?  But lets wait on the outcome of today Haddie before we get too cynical.  Wink

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Re: Rome

Post by LuvSports! on Sun 21 May 2017, 9:59 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Djoko impressive? More like Thiem ran out of steam, physically and mentally after beating Rafa, and produced such a poor performance. Thiem is just so one dimensional, it's hard to like his game, for he's another power hitter, lacking in varieties. Other than hitting hard, there's simply no plan B from him.

Djoko just had to keep the ball in play, retrieving every ball and then Thiem would overhit and lost the point. Engaging in long rallies is what  Djoko is very good at when everything else fails him.  Djoko's opponents in this event are all playing into his hands - Bendene, Agut, Delpo and Thiem - all engaged in long rallies with him, doomed to fail.

I hope Zverev won't fall into the same trap;  hope he gives Djoko a different look, moves Djoko around if he can and forces Djoko to hit more balls on the run; comes forward to attack at the net, etc.

I assume you don't think Rafa is one-dimensional then? Who really changes up their game much other than Fed?

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 10:20 am

Forget the score or the opponent. 
Just watch the way nole played. He was excellent and deserves more credit for upping his level

As does theim

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sun 21 May 2017, 10:22 am

Your opinion every is entitled to one...agreed?

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 10:54 am

Huh? I don't know what that means 

I'm not telling you to change your opinion haddie. I just feel it's a bit harsh 

It's all cool haddie, no worries

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sun 21 May 2017, 11:16 am

OK

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Re: Rome

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Sun 21 May 2017, 12:26 pm

Luvsports, if you can't see how Rafa varied the way he played and playing differently from opponent to opponent, then I'm sorry, I can't help you. You want to compare Thiem to Rafa? Thiem practically plays the same way match after match, it's hard hitting and nothing much else.

Temp, No one is saying that Djoko didn't play well enough to win, but his opponents all going into rallying with him, with no varieties in their games, were playing into his hands. I mean who could out rally Djoko on the tennis court, even when he's playing at 80% of his capacity. I believe only a handul of players, i.e. that few big four guys plus Stan. Perhaps Delpo and Thiem could when playing at full capacity and make a match of it but not here at Rome. Delpo looked rusty and Thiem was running on fumes.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 12:59 pm

Fair. He's had opponents this week that he matches up well with


I would perhaps counter that Novak might only need a few good matches to get a rhythm and turn it all around. Such is his class 

He looked like he started that yesterday to me

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Re: Rome

Post by Calder106 on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:00 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Bedene who was a QF took him to a tie break. Bautista Agut. ranked 20. correction here .. took him to three sets.. Del Po  ranked 32 took him to a tie break.  Wouldn't say that is entirely impressive for the world no 2.. Bearing in mind he thrashed Thiem who is ranked No 7. With Thiem only taking 1 game So I'm still left with a question mark. Did Thiem play badly or did Novak wake up with a brilliant change of form ?  But lets wait on the outcome of today Haddie before we get too cynical.  Wink

According to the ATP site Djokovic beat Bautista Agut 6-4 6-4 and Del Potro 6-1 6-4. So no third set of tie-break in these two games.

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:03 pm

I think his first opponent this tourney took him 3?  I'll have a look

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:04 pm

No that was bedene and it was straights..

Might be thinking of almagro. He took him 3 sets early on but that was Madrid

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:06 pm

Bedene took him to a tb here in Rome. Rather than delpo

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Re: Rome

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:12 pm

Perhaps, temp. Djoko certainly plays better here than at Madrid, imo; Djoko likes this court, his results here speak for themselves. I can't wait to see how Zverev matches up to Djoko. If he plays like the others here, i.e. playing long rallies vs Djoko, then I'm afraid it's game over for him soon. I hope not.

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sun 21 May 2017, 1:27 pm

Calder106 wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:Bedene who was a QF took him to a tie break. Bautista Agut. ranked 20. correction here .. took him to three sets.. Del Po  ranked 32 took him to a tie break.  Wouldn't say that is entirely impressive for the world no 2.. Bearing in mind he thrashed Thiem who is ranked No 7. With Thiem only taking 1 game So I'm still left with a question mark. Did Thiem play badly or did Novak wake up with a brilliant change of form ?  But lets wait on the outcome of today Haddie before we get too cynical.  Wink

According to the ATP site Djokovic beat Bautista Agut 6-4 6-4  and Del Potro 6-1 6-4. So no third set of tie-break in these two games.

You are absolutely right I was looking at the wrong scores on the draw sheet Sorry

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Re: Rome

Post by LuvSports! on Sun 21 May 2017, 2:43 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Luvsports, if you can't see how Rafa varied the way he played and playing differently from opponent to opponent, then I'm sorry, I can't  help you.  You want to compare Thiem to Rafa?  Thiem practically plays the same way match after match, it's hard hitting and nothing much else.

Temp, No one is saying that Djoko didn't play well enough to win, but his opponents all going into rallying with him, with no varieties in their games,  were playing into his hands. I mean who could out rally Djoko on the tennis court, even when he's playing at 80% of his capacity.  I believe only a handul of players, i.e. that few big four guys plus Stan. Perhaps Delpo and Thiem could when playing at full capacity and make a match of it but not here at Rome. Delpo looked rusty and Thiem was running on fumes.  

You can help me, you could explain how Rafa has changed his game match after match other than hitting harder, hitting with more topspin etc?
In Rome vs Rafa, Thiem took the ball earlier on baseline rallies, used angles more and returned much closer in. He was moving Nadal round a lot.

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Re: Rome

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sun 21 May 2017, 2:50 pm

You can help me in that case LS. Exactly why was Thiem not employing some of the same tactics against Novak... he did not move him around, did not use angles and involved himself in endless base line rallies which against Novak he had no hope of winning. Had he employed yesterdays tactics against Rafa he would not have won that match either

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Re: Rome

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Sun 21 May 2017, 3:05 pm

Exactly Haddie. It seems to me that Luvsports has not been watching Rafa's matches this clay season; all LS remembered, from the past I assumed, was Rafa hitting harder and harder with his topspin!

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Re: Rome

Post by temporary21 on Sun 21 May 2017, 3:26 pm

By adapting. Do you mean over his career? Or this season? 
If the former, you just need to watch him in 08 or 07 to see the difference

Djokovic starting pretty badly. Making a monkey of me

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Re: Rome

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