England vs West Indies - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!

[msp83]

KPF, Holder doesn't know how to use his bowlers, particularly spinners. He almost forgot that Bishoo was in the side yesterday. Chase bowled more than double the overs that the main spinner bowled even when he was giving away a few too many runs, despite Bishoo getting the big wicket of Root. And in any case, I am not sure there is that much spin on the track though spin is likely to play an increasing role in the game. But the quicks up front will have to do some damage for the West Indies, and then they have to really bat well in the 4th innings. Before all that, they should somehow bat a session at least tomorrow to stretch that first innings lead to something substantial.

[alfie]

This being Headingley I am not convinced that spin will dictate the result...we will see.
West Indies have certainly dominated five out of six sessions and must have a good chance of setting a lead of over 180 tomorrow - which might prove fatal to England. No sure thing though : couple of early wickets and England could yet roll up the tail and keep the lead south of 130...that must be their first aim. If they can do so there is a way back into this game as a third innings score of , say , 350 might then be enough.
If the tourists get through the first half hour in the morning unscathed they are probably on their way to victory , barring a huge England second innings. Wonder what Vaughan would have to say then ?

Be careful what you wish for...

[guildfordbat]

Hi Alfie and all - yes, I agree that the West Indies should be seeking a lead of 180 which would put them in a very dominant position. That's perhaps a little ambitious - 110 more still needed with 5 wickets left - but certainly not ridiculous. The difficulty for them and for us to make a call is that they have no proven reliability (as msp has touched on ). They could still fold in the first hour this morning for no more than another 30 runs and we're definitely back in it.

However, if the West Indies can put on even another 80 and get their lead north of 150, we're definitely going to be up against it. I've only seen a little of this Test but the odd ball seemed to be keeping low yesterday. If that was right and it continues happening more, that's going to be a practical and mental problem for England's batters, particularly the trio trying to justify their selections, whether facing seam or spin.

Anyway, one swallow doesn't make a summer etc but massive credit to Kraigg Brathwaite and Shai Hope for their batting yesterday. A bit I did see on the box was Michael Holding doing a small but interesting feature showing the wide range of scoring rates by Brathwaite over every 20 runs as he moved from 0 to 20, 20 to 40, etc. The point being made was that he didn't have one set approach but would contentedly adopt and switch between the role of limpet or attacker depending on the different quality of bowling being faced throughout the day. That's what I've liked about Stoneman when seeing him make scores for Surrey this season although I readily acknowledge he can't be allowed unlimited opportunities to show the same at Test level.

[alfie]

Hi guildford

Tough luck for Surrey the other night...thought you'd have been OK with 205 !

Agree the West Indies bats played intelligent cricket. Not sure England did all the time : there was a time when I think they might have realised the batsmen were truly entrenched and perhaps could have explored the old SA style bowl wide of off stump and bore them out tactic ...but perhaps the bowlers , apart from Anderson , just didn't have the control to execute any plan !

Think the pitch will be OK for a day or so yet...overhead conditions more the key here. But scoreboard pressure troubles both these teams...

[eirebilly]

Jimmy strikes early, excellent effort from Hope though.

Hopefully England can bowl them out for under a 150 lead.

[eirebilly]

Jimmy on a hatrick now...

[alfie]

Perfect start !

Jimmy strikes ...end of a super innings by Hope

And new hope for England...

[alfie]

...make that two !

Jimmy on a hat trick

[alfie]

Quite the game changer , that first over. Need back up now from Broad & others , as this pugnacious pair could still take this game away. A third wicket now though...

[alfie]

How the hell did Moeen drop that ?

[eirebilly]

Very poor attempt from Ali, did not look like he was switched on.

[alfie]

Wonder if that drop will end up being the Big Moment in this match ?

Might have been looking at a lead of no more than 75 if he'd held it. Now - who knows ?

[eirebilly]

I hope not alfie, Broad is seriously unhappy with Ali and certainly letting him know.

[eirebilly]

What happened to bowling full and straight?

These two look pretty comfortable with the short and length balls.

[guildfordbat]

Wonder if that drop will end up being the Big Moment in this match ?

Might have been looking at a lead of no more than 75 if he'd held it.  Now - who knows ?

It was being said on day one that a drop might turn out to be the Big Moment. Didn't think it might turn out to be by an England fielder though!

[eirebilly]

Very unimaginative bowling from England here.

[guildfordbat]

Hi guildford

Tough luck for Surrey the other night...thought you'd have been OK with 205 !

Agree the West Indies bats played intelligent cricket. Not sure England did all the time : there was a time when I think they might have realised the batsmen were truly entrenched and perhaps could have explored the old SA style bowl wide of off stump and bore them out tactic ...but perhaps the bowlers , apart from Anderson , just didn't have the control to execute any plan !

Think the pitch will be OK for a day or so yet...overhead conditions more the key here.  But scoreboard pressure troubles both these teams...

Cheers, Alfie. 205 was definitely good but our powder puff middle order still left runs out there.

Not too happy about Ollie's man Woakes. Not only does he need to up his bowling here but his inclusion means TRJ (who nearly always does well against Surrey) should be available for Middlesex's Championship match starting at the Oval tomorrow!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A conundrum my mate sent me I can't work out....

Two batsmen each on 94 not out.

7 runs needed off the final 3 balls of the innings. No extras and overthrows given by the fielding side. Both batsmen scored 100 not out. How?

[eirebilly]

A conundrum my mate sent me I can't work out....

Two batsmen each on 94 not out.

7 runs needed off the final 3 balls of the innings. No extras and overthrows given by the fielding side. Both batsmen scored 100 not out. How?

The only way I see it is Batsman 1 hits a 6, then gets run out (going for a single) trying for the win with the batsmen crossing, then Batsman 2 hits a 6 off the final ball?

[guildfordbat]

A conundrum my mate sent me I can't work out....

Two batsmen each on 94 not out.

7 runs needed off the final 3 balls of the innings. No extras and overthrows given by the fielding side. Both batsmen scored 100 not out. How?

Got it, I think!

1st ball - Batsman 1 hits a four.
2nd ball - Batsman 1 hits the ball into the outfield and the batsmen run 3 but the umpire calls one short. Thus, only 2 runs are scored although Batsman 2 is now on strike.
3rd ball - Batsman 2 hits a six.

[eirebilly]

I missed the both 100NO. I think Guildford has it

[eirebilly]

The dropping of Holder by Ali is looking very costly for England now. Such a dolly of a catch it was as well.

[eirebilly]

At least Ali held that one. Hopefully England finish the Windies off now.

[guildfordbat]

Hi guildford

Tough luck for Surrey the other night...thought you'd have been OK with 205 !

Agree the West Indies bats played intelligent cricket. Not sure England did all the time : there was a time when I think they might have realised the batsmen were truly entrenched and perhaps could have explored the old SA style bowl wide of off stump and bore them out tactic ...but perhaps the bowlers , apart from Anderson , just didn't have the control to execute any plan !

Think the pitch will be OK for a day or so yet...overhead conditions more the key here.  But scoreboard pressure troubles both these teams...

Cheers, Alfie. 205 was definitely good but our powder puff middle order still left runs out there.

Not too happy about Ollie's man Woakes. Not only does he need to up his bowling here but his inclusion means TRJ (who nearly always does well against Surrey) should be available for Middlesex's Championship match starting at the Oval tomorrow!

In case it hasn't been widely seen, here seems as good a place as any to reproduce Kevin Pietersen's tweet of the other night:
''Surrey's loss last night means the end of career in England.''

[Duty281]

Windies 9 down.

Impressive resilience from Blackwood and Holder, though; it would have been easy to fold after England's dream start, but they didn't.

And they're still ahead in the match.

[alfie]

Ironic that Moeen takes the catch -much harder -an hour too late. Suppose they aren't quite out of sight yet ; but really : England should have been batting forty minutes ago at least...

[alfie]

Hi guildford

Tough luck for Surrey the other night...thought you'd have been OK with 205 !

Agree the West Indies bats played intelligent cricket. Not sure England did all the time : there was a time when I think they might have realised the batsmen were truly entrenched and perhaps could have explored the old SA style bowl wide of off stump and bore them out tactic ...but perhaps the bowlers , apart from Anderson , just didn't have the control to execute any plan !

Think the pitch will be OK for a day or so yet...overhead conditions more the key here.  But scoreboard pressure troubles both these teams...

Cheers, Alfie. 205 was definitely good but our powder puff middle order still left runs out there.

Not too happy about Ollie's man Woakes. Not only does he need to up his bowling here but his inclusion means TRJ (who nearly always does well against Surrey) should be available for Middlesex's Championship match starting at the Oval tomorrow!

In case it hasn't been widely seen, here seems as good a place as any to reproduce Kevin Pietersen's tweet of the other night:
''Surrey's loss last night means the end of career in England.''

Hasn't stopped the nutters on BBC HYS calling for him to be brought back for England

[eirebilly]

The 150 lead comes up. That is a very handy first innings lead for the Windies.

6 from Gabriel follows with the next ball.

[alfie]

Yeah I think this is looking like a winning lead now.

Not too often leads of over 150 are overturned. And England haven't a great record of batting under pressure recently. Pitch still good so a second innings 400 plus is quite possible...just not very likely.

[alfie]

427.

169 ahead. Think that is about forty too many for England ; but we shall see if England can show some real character now with the bat.

Stokes probably worth a second wicket...but really Jimmy was head , shoulders and more above the rest of the attack. Broad a bit unlucky at times , perhaps , but well off his standard ; Woakes was complete rubbish and Moeen pretty ineffective. West Indies had two great innings and some typical aggression from Blackwood and Holder. They are deservedly in the box seat

[Duty281]

England need at least 369 to set the Windies a challenging total (barring an unexpected deterioration in the wicket).

That's unlikely on the basis of the first innings. One, or both, of Cook and Root need to conjure a big ton.

[alfie]

England need at least 369 to set the Windies a challenging total (barring an unexpected deterioration in the wicket).

That's unlikely on the basis of the first innings. One, or both, of Cook and Root need to conjure a big ton.

Well 369 plus would mean batting until around tea tomorrow ; so yes that would just about give them a chance. West Indies can't expect two centurions every time and I think England would likely bowl better second time around.
Guess others can make hundreds besides Cook and Root so it isn't out of the question. But hard to be too hopeful on recent innings. Hope they can - could be an exciting finish on Tuesday !

[eirebilly]

I really hope Stoneman gets a score today.

Gabriel is sending in plenty of no balls...

[alfie]

Quite like what I'm seeing of Stoneman. Looks a decent opener ; but he needs to get a score sooner rather than later. Think he rather gave his wicket away in the first innings here ; though that might have been the pressure of some good new ball bowling by West Indies leading up to his dismissal.

What's with all the no balls in this innings ? Weren't there on day one...

[guildfordbat]

Quite like what I'm seeing of Stoneman. Looks a decent opener ; but he needs to get a score sooner rather than later.  Think he rather gave his wicket away in the first innings here ; though that might have been the pressure of some good new ball bowling by West Indies leading up to his dismissal.

What's with all the no balls in this innings ? Weren't there on day one...

Thanks, Alfie. I'm just back having been out for an hour or so. I was about to ask how Surrey's Rocky was doing. Sounds reasonably encouraging at least.

Holder did the right thing imo in increasing the lead to the maximum amount but I wonder if it crossed his mind to declare when the West Indies went 9 down. That would have given the rookie opener Stoneman just 10 minutes to pad up and then a potentially awkward 20 minutes before lunch.

PS As you said - ''nutters'' calling for Pietersen's recall.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Holder and Chase bowling really wel here - tough period for England

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Holder and Chase bowling really wel here - tough period for England

And Holder gets Cook - that was coming. Cook just kept nibbling and finally got got bat on one

[guildfordbat]

Good bowling there (not just the one ball) by Holder to get Cook.

A few minutes earlier, David Lloyd said this in reply to Ian Ward about Mark Stoneman:
''I like his movement, like his composure. He seems very level headed. Just needs a score.'' I go with that.

[eirebilly]

Holder getting some movement out there...

[eirebilly]

Stoneman has gone into his shell somewhat. he was 17 off 17 so his last 13 have taken 63 balls...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Stoneman has gone into his shell somewhat. he was 17 off 17 so his last 13 have taken 63 balls...

I'd credit that to good bowling by Holder and Chase - Chase in particular causing issues as it's turning. Surprised we haven't seen Bishoo yet

[guildfordbat]

Stoneman has gone into his shell somewhat. he was 17 off 17 so his last 13 have taken 63 balls...

I'd credit that to good bowling by Holder and Chase - Chase in particular causing issues as it's turning. Surprised we haven't seen Bishoo yet

Yeah, I didn't see any of the first 17 that Stoneman faced but Holder and Chase were certainly bowling well after that. The most important thing for Stoneman is that he is still there.

Again like Olly, I think Bishoo should have had a bowl by now. Expect him to put in a shift before stumps tonight.

[eirebilly]

I am not having a dig at Stoneman, have actually been very impressed with his composure this innings. Very much worth his selection and based on this innings alone, should be persevered with.

[msp83]

Holder hardly relized Bishoo was in the playing 11 even in the first innings. He might again underbowl his frontline spinner yet again. Holder might be spirited and all that, but he's not a 3rd seamer, not a top 6 bat, and most certainly, not even a less than average captain!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To say Westley looked like a rabbit in headlights during that innings would be kind...worrying

Stoneman battles through to a 50. Taken a knock on his finger, which looks to be causing him some pain. The way he reacted initially I wouldn't be surprised if it were a break...and if so, he wouldn't be fit to play the next test

[guildfordbat]

To say Westley looked like a rabbit in headlights during that innings would be kind...worrying

Stoneman battles through to a 50. Taken a knock on his finger, which looks to be causing him some pain. The way he reacted initially I wouldn't be surprised if it were a break...and if so, he wouldn't be fit to play the next test

Good personal tactics - it'll be difficult to leave him out of the Ashes party after this innings!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

What a delivery that is from Gabriel

[Duty281]

Beautiful delivery, and a huge wicket for the away side.

They'll still want a couple more tonight, including Root...

[Duty281]

"Dan Norcross
BBC Test Match Special
That startles me. I think everyone will be of the same mind as myself and Geoffrey that was a no-ball."

Er....no.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

"Dan Norcross
BBC Test Match Special
That startles me. I think everyone will be of the same mind as myself and Geoffrey that was a no-ball."

Er....no.

He clearly had a fraction behind the line. It wasn't a no ball, don't know how anybody could think it was!

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