20th Gathering of Edinburgh and Glasgow Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Edinburgh Squad

LH's: Schoeman, Dell, Marfo, Sutherland
Hookers: McInally, Ford, Fenton, Cherry
TH's: Nel, Berghan, McCallum, Ceccarelli
Second Row: Gilchrist, Toolis, McKenzie, Carmichael, Hunter-Hill
Back Row: Barclay, Hamilton, Crosbie; Watson, Ritchie; Bradbury, Mata, Miller, Nayalo

SH's: Pyrgos, Fowles, Kennedy, Shiel
FH's: Hickey, VDW, McLelland, Baggott
Centres: Scott, Socino, Bennett, Dean, Johnstone, G Taylor
Back 3: Fife, VDM, Hoyland, Brown, Graham; Kinghorn

Forward Total: 26
- Internationals: 16 (14 Scots, 1 Italian, 1 Fijian)
- NSQ: 4 (1 of whom is a project)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 7 (2 capped)
Backs Total: 20
- Internationals: 8 (Socino lone non-Scot)
- NSQ: 4 (2 projects)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 10 (2 capped)

Total: 46

Glasgow Squad

LH's: Bhatti, Allan, Kebble
Hookers: Brown, Turner, Stewart, Bryce
TH's: Fagerson, Nuka, Rae, Nicol
Second Row: Gray, Swinson, Cummings, McDonald, Brian, Peterson, Davidson
Back-Row: M Fagerson, Harley; Gibbins, Smith, Fusaro; Wilson, Ashe, Tameilau, Flockhart

SH's: Price, G Horne,Frisby, Mata, Baletto
FH's: Horne, Hastings, Jackson
Centres: Dunbar, H Jones, Johnson, Dunbar, Grigg, P Kelly
Back 3: Seymour, VDM, L Jones, Masaga, Tagive, Hughes, Beattie, Nairn; Hogg, Thomson

Forward Total: 27
- Internationals: 15 (12 Scots, 2 Americans, 1 Tongan)
- NSQ: 6 (2 projects)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 11 (4 capped, both projects)
Backs Total: 24
- Internationals: 14 (10 Scots, 1 Fijian, 1 Kiwi, 1 Canadian, 1 Aussie)
- NSQ: 4 (No projects if Thomson is already tied to SA)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 8 (1 capped)

Total: 51

Overall: 97 players
- Internationals: 53 (43 Scots)
- NSQ: 19 (5 projects)
- Under 25: 36 (9 capped)

tigertattie wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:Aye I knew of one draw, but I assumed there was more, as it seems like a strange call out.

Yeah BPs were our downfall, or Glasgow’s success (whichever way you want to look at it).  

It's GC so of course it's going to be strange! Not even cool strange like Dr Strange just odd strange like that thing growing on Jimbopip's left buttock!

I've been called many things, but one of Jim's anal warts is a new high and, indeed, low for me.

Listen here, I came back to raise the tone!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Listen here, I came back to raise the tone!

good luck with that!

Gentlemen, gentlemen

Tis not a wart at all. Not at all.

I've just asked MrsPip to have a quick perusal of the affected area and she said it's not a wart at all. No, she said, it's more like hard calloused skin from sitting on your wallet too long.


On a totally unrelated matter; Glasgow have signed Eric Sykes the second row from the Under 20's. He is being farmed out to Ayr until he has absorbed enough World Classishness to journey up to Scotstoun. I know he is also known as Marshall but while Jonny is there he'd only be the deputy, so Eric it is.

jimbopip wrote:Gentlemen, gentlemen

Tis not a wart at all. Not at all.

I've just asked MrsPip to have a quick perusal of the affected area and she said it's not a wart at all. No, she said, it's more like hard calloused skin from sitting on your wallet too long.


On a totally unrelated matter; Glasgow have signed Eric Sykes the second row from the Under 20's. He is being farmed out to Ayr until he has absorbed enough World Classishness to journey up to Scotstoun. I know he is also known as Marshall but while Jonny is there he'd only be the deputy, so Eric it is.

Scottish Rugby Blog have done a "4 to follow" from the U20s of those the writer thinks will make the step up, this is their chat on Sykes

Scottish Rugby Blog wrote:Marshall Sykes
Position – Lock / blindside flanker
Height – 6’6″ (199cm)
Weight – 16st 12lbs (107kg)
Club – Ayr (from next season, just finished 6th form at St. Joseph’s College)

Why he will make it as a pro: Work rate and consistency – which are essential factors for a lock. He was the U20s top performer in defence with 31 tackles made and none missed in the first 4 matches; made some effective carries; and functioned well in the lineout to boot.

Things to work on: Front 5 players are increasingly being asked to take on a decision-making, distributing role (Jonny Gray passes around 40% of the time he touches the ball) so if he can add some of this to his game he’ll be well on his way to being an ideal fit for the prototypical modern lock.

Opportunities at club level: It’s unconfirmed at the moment but his move from school in England to Ayr for the start of next season suggests he will be joining the Scottish Rugby Academy (Glasgow & the West). That will put him firmly on the radar of Glasgow Warriors with an eye on a call-up in the next couple of years.

His role model should be: Jonny Gray

https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2018/07/world-rugby-u20s-championship-2018-review-four-to-follow/

in reference to Jimbo's post (not the part about his scabies)

I defying anyone to say the word "Classishness" without doing a poor impersonation of Sean Connery.

He's a big lad anyway so that shouldn't hold him back - Ayr will turn him into the next Brodie Retallick I'm sure so he'll be straight into the Scotland team for the world cup!

Sounds like a longer term replacement for Tiny Tim Swinson, being a small lock or a slow flanker. If he's as technically good and as powerful as Swinson then he'll be handy, but let's just wait and see.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sounds like a longer term replacement for Tiny Tim Swinson, being a small lock or a slow flanker. If he's as technically good and as powerful as Swinson then he'll be handy, but let's just wait and see.

first time I've ever seen tiny Tim referred to as "powerful". Either FES has been on the sauce early or he's hanging up his dodgy lawyerness job for one in PR spin!

Swinson is pretty solid actually, it's his height that limits him in the world of top class locks. He's technically good as well in terms of body positions in contact, he uses his weight pretty well generally. He's just too short for the highest level.

Can't say I agree FES (who asked you to come back??) - the biggest criticism of Swinson from most people is that he's lacking physicality at the top level. He gets nowhere when carrying and doesn't put dominant tackles in and generally looks underpowered compared to most locks he comes up against. He's also not really a lineout option being 3 inches shorter than the average international lock. I can't imagine props appreciate his lack of grunt in scrums either compares to big lumps like Gilchrist and Grayx2.

International coaches keep picking him though so they must be seeing something we don't see!

I'm not sure that he does lack grunt in scrums. He's shorter but almost the same weight as Jonny Gray. He's shorter but almost a stone heavier than Lawes, he's shorter but heavier than Kruis, and same story again with Itoje. For me it's his height rather than his power. James Ryan is a stone and a half lighter than Swinson.

Sure, Gilchrist and Richie Gray stand out as being massive, but in the past Gray has been criticised for not translating his size onto the pitch, and the same can be said of Gilchrist.

I'd still pick both Grays and Gilchrist ahead of Swinson, just to be clear.

I should add that the heights and weights come from Wikipedia, where my entry would record me as "a man of Olympian stature".

funnyExiledScot wrote:I should add that the heights and weights come from Wikipedia, where my entry would record me as "a man of Olympian stature".

To be fair, that view of you has also been corroborated by several comments written in a black Sharpie across two glory holes in Cumberland Street.

We've had this discussion before (not the glory holes) - there's no way his Wikipedia stats are correct, both height and weight. There's no way in hell he's heavier than Kruis and Lawes, who are absolute units of international rugby.

Just had a look and Swinson's Wikipedia puts him at 18st 6 and his Glasgow profile has him at 17st 6, which is much more believable!

The source for Wikipedia is his Newcastle falcons profile from years ago so definitely not the most accurate.

The final point on this is that weight and physicality/power do not always go hand in hand. Hamish Watson and Richard Metcalf being prime examples of this from opposite ends of the spectrum! Lawes and Swinson are supposedly the same weight but their physicality at international level is non comparable.

I'm not sure I agree on Lawes. He is a ferocious (and often late) tackler but I actually think he's underpowered at international level when compared to the very best. For my money, Launchbury, Itoje and Kruis will block him from many more caps.

I think we're under rating Swinson here, which is unusual for a Glasgow player. His height holds him back, certainly, but I have no issues with his work rate and power. I do take issue with the idea that he can cover flanker. He's too slow for that.

I'll just skip over GCs comment....

Had a chat with Swinson at David Lloyd last summer. i am just a smidgen under 6 ft 3  and  he is no  more than an inch taller than me,  so he is definitely short for an international second row.  
He is pretty solidly built would think he is under 18  stone as he doesn't carry much excess  baggage around the waist.

Until Cockers started working his magic on Gilchrist i always thought that Swinson's work rate, aggression and work over the ball made him much more effective than the Gilco in a blue shirt. However i have been  pleasantly surprised that Gilchrist has finally begun achieving the potential that successive  Scotland coaches thought that he had.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm not sure I agree on Lawes. He is a ferocious (and often late) tackler but I actually think he's underpowered at international level when compared to the very best. For my money, Launchbury, Itoje and Kruis will block him from many more caps.

I think we're under rating Swinson here, which is unusual for a Glasgow player. His height holds him back, certainly, but I have no issues with his work rate and power. I do take issue with the idea that he can cover flanker. He's too slow for that.

I'll just skip over GCs comment....

I think there is a general acceptance that he is a decent player. At club level, he largely holds his own against everyone except the best. At international level, that is all there is. If he had grown to 6'5 or taller, he would have worked himself up into a good international (as opposed to a below-average Tier 1 international). Genetics have stopped him. It is out of his control. He has reached his ceiling and got 37 caps in the process.

It is what makes McDonald, Cummings, Hunter-Hill and Carmichael interesting. They have the genetics and the talent. If they can prove they have the work-ethic/coachability, they are international level. That is within their control and, if 2 of them hit their ceiling, we should be covered for second rows until 2023.

Crammond is meant to be a similar size to Swinson and is looking like he won't get the opportunity to even be a club player.

So, FES is back and Schiz is AWOL (again).

But Fes can't post from work....but has been posting during the 9-5 slot.

Fes has barely mentioned the difficulty in finding a judge who will allow him to "instruct" the domestic staff in the "traditional manner". Fes's posts seem to have a bite more bite about them than previously.
Fes seems to be the only Luvvie poster on here standing up for Tim Swinson.

Oh and Bru has qualified to defend the indefensible for sackloads of filthy lucre, and he needs a lot of that as the upkeep on The Hagia Sophia is simply massive.





I have a horrid feeling that Schiz has eluded his carers and snuck past the Morningside Border Guards.


Any day now there will be a weeping and a wailing echoing over the Stockbridge rooftops and over in the West End of Glasgow the locals in Tennants will hear a hoary old voice cry, "The drinks are on me boys; there's been another murderrr".


There will then be a six month delay in starting the investigation while Police Scotland (East) and Police Scotland (West) argue the toss over whether to allocate the case to DI Laidlaw or "that scoundrel Rebus" during which time Fes" will continue to post during working hours and praise Glasgow's players.

How can it be expensive to live in Tyneside? You save money straight away by never owning a coat, Kappa tracksuit bottoms are fairly cheap and Newcastle Brown Ale is also practically free.

Bru doesn't live in Tyneside. he resides in the plutocracy of Sunny Jesmond. The paupers of Tyneside travel by charabanc to gaze I silent wonder at the magnificence of The Hagia Sophia, hence the humungous upkeep costs.

Bru saves money, mainly, by allowing me to purchase tickets for matches which will be paid for "on the day". This is often followed by "What do you mean yesterday is a blur? And can I have change from the large denomination note I gave you? "

Don't worry Jimbo, I won't make a habit of praising Glasgow players!! I do hold high hopes for George Horne and Adam Hastings however. They were immense against the Argies.

Still, for the sake balance, I think Ryan Wilson and Lee Jones should try a different sport....

So nice to have you back FES. I've been waiting fro someone else to join me in saying that Ryan Wilson shouldn't be anywhere near the Dark blue of Scotland!

we've had some rank average players over the years accumulating caps by the handful simply because there was absolutely hee haw other choice (Andy Henderson, Marcus Di Rollo, et all I'm looking at you). But we have choices a plenty to cover the no 6 berth so Wilson shouldn't be in the picture.

tigertattie wrote:So nice to have you back FES. I've been waiting fro someone else to join me in saying that Ryan Wilson shouldn't be anywhere near the Dark blue of Scotland!

Er, I think that most people on these boards have been saying that - not least, Strathclyde Police and the staff of Kebabylon on the Great Western Road.

tigertattie wrote:So nice to have you back FES. I've been waiting fro someone else to join me in saying that Ryan Wilson shouldn't be anywhere near the Dark blue of Scotland!

we've had some rank average players over the years accumulating caps by the handful simply because there was absolutely hee haw other choice (Andy Henderson, Marcus Di Rollo, et all I'm looking at you). But we have choices a plenty to cover the no 6 berth so Wilson shouldn't be in the picture.

But but... his leadership skills? and...and... his erm loud mouth? Oh and his "Grit"

Last, but not least, he plays above the ground well

George Carlin wrote:

tigertattie wrote:So nice to have you back FES. I've been waiting fro someone else to join me in saying that Ryan Wilson shouldn't be anywhere near the Dark blue of Scotland!

Er, I think that most people on these boards have been saying that - not least, Strathclyde Police and the staff of Kebabylon on the Great Western Road.

Oooo, where is FES when you need him? We need a decent lawyer to confirm if this is defamatory

You can't defame someone who is really stupid. That's a fact.

It is, of course, possible that my technical legal skills have declined somewhat since moving in-house.

funnyExiledScot wrote:You can't defame someone who is really stupid. That's a fact.

It is, of course, possible that my technical legal skills have declined somewhat since moving in-house.

I know the feeling. One avoids technical question by asking things like 'is that really what we want to achieve'?

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:You can't defame someone who is really stupid. That's a fact.

It is, of course, possible that my technical legal skills have declined somewhat since moving in-house.

I know the feeling. One avoids technical question by asking things like 'is that really what we want to achieve'?

Key phases:

We are where we are - I dropped the ball big time but there's nothing we can do about it now

Let's not reinvent the wheel - I can't be bothered to draft anything bespoke to fix that problem

We need to look at this from a commercial perspective - I have no idea what the legal issues are, but I have a vague idea that they won't be material if it all blows up

This is probably better addressed to outside counsel - I honestly have no clue what anyone is talking about

Case in point gentleman, I said "Decent" lawyer so I've no idea why it's being discussed with the Arab one

tigertattie wrote:Case in point gentleman, I said "Decent" lawyer so I've no idea why it's being discussed with the Arab one

Steady on. 

Am English law qualified in any event.

Exactly. Once you are familiar with snails in ginger beer bottles, you can practice anywhere!

I do find jokes that only lawyers understand to be the funniest kind of jokes!

George Carlin wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Case in point gentleman, I said "Decent" lawyer so I've no idea why it's being discussed with the Arab one

Steady on. 

Am English law qualified in any event.

you misunderstand GC

I said "decent" lawyer

You sir are an exceptional lawyer!

What's the difference between mechanical engineers and civil engineers?

Mechanical engineers build weapons. Civil engineers build targets.

There you go RDW. An engineer joke.

They're not any better!

Out of interest what is the snails and ginger beer thing all about?

It's just a really silly case which became the foundation for the modern day law of tort/negligence. Some punter got annoyed at finding a snail at the bottom of a bottle of ginger beer. She fell ill after drinking it and sued the makers of the ginger beer, successfully.

It happened in Paisley of all places, where you'd think the discovery of a decomposing snail in your drink would be the least of your worries.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's just a really silly case which became the foundation for the modern day law of tort/negligence. Some punter got annoyed at finding a snail at the bottom of a bottle of ginger beer. She fell ill after drinking it and sued the makers of the ginger beer, successfully.

It happened in Paisley of all places, where you'd think the discovery of a decomposing snail in your drink would be the least of your worries.

Truth be told, there are some parts of Gateshead where a snail in your beer constitutes a cocktail. I was at a wedding on the weekend, seated next one of Hagia Sophia's childhood friends. She gamely asked me if I fancied a Brown Ale. I quietly replied that despite living in Newcastle for three very happy years, I had never once tried 'Nookee Brooon'. She immediately shouted a very friendly "Oh Fooook OFFF!" and interrupted the bride's father's speech.

It's pretty grim stuff to be honest, and I'll drink pretty much anything.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's pretty grim stuff to be honest, and I'll drink pretty much anything as long as it has spent at least 30 years in the cellars of one of a handful of French chateaux

Updated for accuracy

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's pretty grim stuff to be honest, and I'll drink pretty much anything as long as it has spent at least 30 years in the cellars of one of a handful of French chateaux

Updated for accuracy  

That is, course, what I meant. We had some guests arrive the other week and they brought a New World wine as a gift, which is why I now refer to them as guests rather than friends....

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly. Once you are familiar with snails in ginger beer bottles, you can practice anywhere!

What about carbolic smoke balls?!

I remember learning about the case, absolutely no idea to this day what a carbolic smoke ball was meant to be.

Not a lawyer, just an accountant a sad git

Been quite a lot of coverage of pre-season training for both clubs and has got me thinking that, due to a number of players being rested in the summer or Scotland players missing the tour through injury, both Edinburgh and Glasgow should have pretty strong squads available at the start of the season. Hopefully this means we get off to a good start.

Edinburgh should have something like

1 Marfo
2 Ford
3 Ceccarelli
4 McKenzie
5 CHH
6 Hamilton
7 Watson (says he should be back from injury in time)
8 Nayolo

9 Pyrgos
10 Hickey
11 VDM
12 Scott
13 Dean
14 Graham
15 VDW

Subs - Shoeman, Fenton, McCallum, Charmichael, Crosbie, Sheil, Socino, Johnson

That's a pretty decent Edinburgh side. Not sure about VDW at fullback. I'm ridiculously keen to see Graham given a shot in that position, and I suppose one of Hoyland or Brown could cover wing.

I'm curious to see whether VDW or Hickey emerges as first choice 10.

VDW has played fullback most of his career before he came to Edinburgh as emergency 10 cover in December - he had a good start at Edinburgh but lost his way a bit as the season went on. Hickey has been a regular 10 in the Top 14 for the last few seasons so has more experience there - I'd quite like to see how VDW does at 15 as we don't really have options past Kinghorn or someone else filling in just now.

Graham has played most of his rugby at wing so would have a lot of learning to do at 15 - he was caught horribly out of position when he played there last season. He's got plenty time to do that but (like Kinghorn) we'd have to accept him making lots of mistakes. He'll need to develop his kicking game too - Kinghorn and VDW have huge boots on them.

Sorry but graham simply isn't a pro level fullback. I really hope he gets game time on the wing as he could be utterly deadly out there.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Been quite a lot of coverage of pre-season training for both clubs and has got me thinking that, due to a number of players being rested in the summer or Scotland players missing the tour through injury, both Edinburgh and Glasgow should have pretty strong squads available at the start of the season. Hopefully this means we get off to a good start.

Edinburgh should have something like

1 Marfo
2 Fenton
3 Nel
4 McKenzie
5 CHH
6 Hamilton
7 Ritchie
8 Mata

9 Pyrgos
10 Hickey
11 VDM
12 Dean
13 Scott
14 Graham
15 Brown

Subs - Shoeman, Ford, McCallum, Charmichael, Crosbie, Sheil, VDW, Socino

Is Nel back in time? Would like him to get a start if he has had a pre-season

Other than that, I have several changes.
- Ford is old, lets see what Fenton has got
- Watson should be brought in slowly. Want him 100% (or as close as rugby players get) before coming back in a World Cup Year
- Mata is a beast at 8 who we know can carry. Nayolo is unknown at this point. Mata balances a back-row without a bigger 6 (like Bradbury, Barclay and Crosbie).

- Dean (12) is not good at 13 and Scott was good at Glos at 13 (even if he is a 12). Swap them.
- Brown was a 15 first. Fife could come in and play 15. VDW can cover off the bench. It is a long season. Need to preserve the 2 experienced fly-halves without adding minutes from 15 where there are other options.

RDW_Scotland wrote:VDW has played fullback most of his career before he came to Edinburgh as emergency 10 cover in December - he had a good start at Edinburgh but lost his way a bit as the season went on. Hickey has been a regular 10 in the Top 14 for the last few seasons so has more experience there - I'd quite like to see how VDW does at 15 as we don't really have options past Kinghorn or someone else filling in just now.

Graham has played most of his rugby at wing so would have a lot of learning to do at 15 - he was caught horribly out of position when he played there last season. He's got plenty time to do that but (like Kinghorn) we'd have to accept him making lots of mistakes.  He'll need to develop his kicking game too - Kinghorn and VDW have huge boots on them.

Fair enough. I didn't know that VDW was essentially a fullback filling in at 10. If so, he did a pretty decent job. I actually thought Graham was pretty exciting at 15 last season, and he seems deceptively strong for his build. Still, no issues with him being eased in gently via the wing berth. He's such a promising talent.