To haka or not to haka (again)

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To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 2:28 am

The haka has popped up again in debate in New Zealand. A new book by Peter Bills appears to quote some former All Blacks saying the haka has become over-used and over-commercialised. There is some question over whether all those comments have been taken out of context but it has prompted dicussion of "haka fatigue". Some have suggested the haka should only be performed overseas, which apparently used to be the case.

Here's one article on the subject:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/all-blacks-haka-has-lost-its-mana-nz-legends-claim

In Japan the other day, the New Zealand womens softball team performed a haka to their Taiwanese opposition, who threw salt on the ground afterwards in response. The Kiwis thought was it was dirt, and a sign of disrespect, so they did the haka again. This was described as a "cultural misunderstanding".

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/106016553/official-warnings-issued-after-chinese-taipei-softballers-throw-salt-after-nz-white-sox-haka


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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by yappysnap on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 5:48 am

I read the article and I have to say I do like the idea of o it at home games, we're definitely saturated with Hakas now. But people out here are keen for it to continue if they care at all,most don't.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by robbo277 on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 7:43 am

It's a bit of fun for the occasional fan to see in person, but if you watch the 6 Rugby Championship games with a televised haka before all of them, you're not that fussed when it comes round to the autumn and they do another one against your team.

I'm going to watch England vs NZ in the autumn. If they didn't perform the haka, I wouldn't feel cheated or robbed of an experience.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by tigertattie on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 9:53 am

The issue remains that some (likely a minority) of NZ fans/officials/etc are far too sensitive over the Haka and insist it must be respected.

The above softball game is prime example of this. If NZ expect their opponents to observe their war dance then they need to observe whatever ritual their opponents choose to take part in. I'm sure there are parts of the world where throwing dirt at someone is a ritual response of "I see your challenge, now prepare to back up your words with action as here I come"

NZ can't then complain about how disrespectful this is as I think you'll find many countries believe making a throat slitting gesture at someone is disrespectful.

Obviously there needs to be some common sense though as an opponent couldn't stand there facing the Haka while giving the one finger salute.

But the blackness really do need to get over themselves a bit!
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 10:59 am

Over preciousness may be a problem with the Haka, but I think over familiarity and dilution is a bigger issue for its future. Isn’t it based on historical warrior rituals? If the NZ women’s softball side are doing it, how long before all NZ sporting events have one – table-tennis, boxing, synchronized swimming?
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 11:10 am

tigertattie wrote:The issue remains that some (likely a minority) of NZ fans/officials/etc are far too sensitive over the Haka and insist it must be respected.

The above softball game is prime example of this. If NZ expect their opponents to observe their war dance then they need to observe whatever ritual their opponents choose to take part in. I'm sure there are parts of the world where throwing dirt at someone is a ritual response of "I see your challenge, now prepare to back up your words with action as here I come"

NZ can't then complain about how disrespectful this is as I think you'll find many countries believe making a throat slitting gesture at someone is disrespectful.

Obviously there needs to be some common sense though as an opponent couldn't stand there facing the Haka while giving the one finger salute.

But the blackness really do need to get over themselves a bit!

Why not?  A seasoned, mildly sexualised, world recognised insult taunt is still preferable to a throat slitting gesture...surely?

Having said that, maybe it simply is the case that people who watch too much sport (including too much Rugby Union itself [English Premiership, Pro14, Top 14, 6N, Super Rugby, Southern Championship, European rugby, Autumn internationals etc] maybe those people naturally would tire of some of the surrounding and repeating paraphernalia.  But then again, you might as well include the National Anthems, the bloody flame spurters and a few goats as things to be dumped out of rugby if the Haka is becoming too much of a bore.
Also, whilst we're at it, include the inane comment time during half time breaks when nothing substantial can get talked about before the next advert five-minuter turns up to kill all momentum.
I like the Haka - but then I don't watch the SH Championship so I never get saturated by images of it.  Maybe people (even absolute rugby lovers) should simply watch less rugby.  Keep the love and kill the addiction/obsession.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Scarpia on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 7:39 pm

It is cultural appropriation. It is a Maori war dance. Most of the team are not Maoris. It should be stopped.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 8:31 pm

Scarpia wrote:It is cultural appropriation. It is a Maori war dance. Most of the team are not Maoris. It should be stopped.

Says the expert on Tikanga Maori and NZ culture.

Personally I think it should be limited to home and the Pacific where its understood and appreciated in its right context so that ‘some’ culturally limited idiots who dont identify with a culture of their own enough to know that other cultures and their customs and artifacts do have a purpose in life, can go through life with their own ignorance, slagging off anything that doesnt quite fit with their morning cuppa and scone.

Our mistake is widening its scope and over representing it but that is just down to people finding their way in the wider world as we all do, testing for ourselves what is acceptable, worthwhile, throughout our sometimes fascinating, sometimes scary, journey of life.

But if it continues to be brought up an eyesore for folks who have nothing better in life to criticise then we’ll get the message. I dont think thats the case yet.

From reading the passage those girls simply didnt know about the response and its meaning so did what they perceived to be a fitting response. On finding out what it meant they will have made sure they got it afterwards and embraced it. Thats how we learn in life. To understand ones differences. Its something to be celebrated not stuck back in the too hard basket because youre not prepared or too lazy to do the hard work of getting to know people.

The Haka, makes the world a slightly better place, not a worse one. Pity some dont get that.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by robbo277 on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 9:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:
tigertattie wrote:The issue remains that some (likely a minority) of NZ fans/officials/etc are far too sensitive over the Haka and insist it must be respected.

The above softball game is prime example of this. If NZ expect their opponents to observe their war dance then they need to observe whatever ritual their opponents choose to take part in. I'm sure there are parts of the world where throwing dirt at someone is a ritual response of "I see your challenge, now prepare to back up your words with action as here I come"

NZ can't then complain about how disrespectful this is as I think you'll find many countries believe making a throat slitting gesture at someone is disrespectful.

Obviously there needs to be some common sense though as an opponent couldn't stand there facing the Haka while giving the one finger salute.

But the blackness really do need to get over themselves a bit!

Why not?  A seasoned, mildly sexualised, world recognised insult taunt is still preferable to a throat slitting gesture...surely?

Having said that, maybe it simply is the case that people who watch too much sport (including too much Rugby Union itself [English Premiership, Pro14, Top 14, 6N, Super Rugby, Southern Championship, European rugby, Autumn internationals etc] maybe those people naturally would tire of some of the surrounding and repeating paraphernalia.  But then again, you might as well include the National Anthems, the bloody flame spurters and a few goats as things to be dumped out of rugby if the Haka is becoming too much of a bore.
Also, whilst we're at it, include the inane comment time during half time breaks when nothing substantial can get talked about before the next advert five-minuter turns up to kill all momentum.
I like the Haka - but then I don't watch the SH Championship so I never get saturated by images of it.  Maybe people (even absolute rugby lovers) should simply watch less rugby.  Keep the love and kill the addiction/obsession.

I'm not bored of rugby though. I could watch less NZ games to see less haka, but I like the games. Each game is different. I'm just ambivalent about the haka. There's no "outcome" to worry about, other than the haka finishing and the teams getting on with the game.

I'm not against it per se and I'm not calling for it to be canned. I just personally don't mind either way if they do it.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by yappysnap on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 4:59 am

Taylorman wrote:
Scarpia wrote:It is cultural appropriation. It is a Maori war dance. Most of the team are not Maoris. It should be stopped.

Says the expert on Tikanga Maori and NZ culture.

Personally I think it should be limited to home and the Pacific where its understood and appreciated in its right context so that ‘some’ culturally limited idiots who dont identify with a culture of their own enough to know that other cultures and their customs and artifacts do have a purpose in life, can go through life with their own ignorance, slagging off anything that doesnt quite fit with their morning cuppa and scone.

Our mistake is widening its scope and over representing it but that is just down to people finding their way in the wider world as we all do, testing for ourselves what is acceptable, worthwhile, throughout our sometimes fascinating, sometimes scary, journey of life.

But if it continues to be brought up an eyesore for folks who have nothing better in life to criticise then we’ll get the message. I dont think thats the case yet.

From reading the passage those girls simply didnt know about the response and its meaning so did what they perceived to be a fitting response. On finding out what it meant they will have made sure they got it afterwards and embraced it. Thats how we learn in life. To understand ones differences. Its something to be celebrated not stuck back in the too hard basket because youre not prepared or too lazy to do the hard work of getting to know people.

The Haka, makes the world a slightly better place, not a worse one. Pity some dont get that.

I think this covers it.

Keep it to home games and Pacific regional games. It's a big part of the culture, but the over use cheapens it imo.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 6:36 am

I was hoping that there would be more to this book than the Haka, surely it cant be the only reason that the All Blacks are the most dominant team in World Rugby?

A few days back I read somewhere that Kees Meeuws has claimed he has been misquoted by Peter Bills.

As to when it should or shouldnt be performed? I go to at least 2 All Black tests a year and I often think that watching the Haka on TV is nothing to watching it "Live" at the ground, and especially if only to see the visiting supporters appreciate a very unique experience of watching it being performed in New Zealand.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by TJ on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 7:30 am

When I first saw the Haka it wsa much more low key and performed towards the crowd for entertainment while the opposition carried on with their warmup. Now it is performed towards the opposition and too many folk have become to precious about it dictating what the response should be from the opposition.
I think the opposition should go back to simply ignoring it and getting on with their own preparation. Its become clichéd and dull.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 7:56 am

I like the haka and to a casual observer it can draw you in to watch a game. Don't think the opposition should be limited to their response to it however within reason. I also think it should be done before the anthems.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Scarpia on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 8:18 am

Taylorman wrote:
Scarpia wrote:It is cultural appropriation. It is a Maori war dance. Most of the team are not Maoris. It should be stopped.

Says the expert on Tikanga Maori and NZ culture.


Thanks for the acknowledgement.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 8:56 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: As to when it should or shouldnt be performed? I go to at least 2 All Black tests a year and I often think that watching the Haka on TV is nothing to watching it "Live" at the ground, and especially if only to see the visiting supporters appreciate a very unique experience of watching it being performed in New Zealand.

I agree with this.

Whether the Haka should be performed away from home is a different issue. Personally I feel that the host country should always have the last word, thus away from home it makes sense for the Haka to be performed before the anthems (or the host teams war dance if they have something similar). If the ABs feel this is disrespectful (not saying they do) then perhaps they need to look in the mirror first - respect should always be shown as well as accepted.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:00 am

LondonTiger wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: As to when it should or shouldnt be performed? I go to at least 2 All Black tests a year and I often think that watching the Haka on TV is nothing to watching it "Live" at the ground, and especially if only to see the visiting supporters appreciate a very unique experience of watching it being performed in New Zealand.

I agree with this.

Whether the Haka should be performed away from home is a different issue. Personally I feel that the host country should always have the last word, thus away from home it makes sense for the Haka to be performed before the anthems (or the host teams war dance if they have something similar). If the ABs feel this is disrespectful (not saying they do) then perhaps they need to look in the mirror first - respect should always be shown as well as accepted.


They do.  I remember when Wales politely requested that we be allowed perform our national anthem after the haka to commemorate the 100 year anniversary of the meeting of the teams, by way of response to the haka.  The ABs said it was disrespectful and performed it in the changing room instead stating that it is not for us or for the fans but for them.  Which is fine.  But if it is for them then do it in private.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Tramptastic on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:19 am

yappysnap wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Scarpia wrote:It is cultural appropriation. It is a Maori war dance. Most of the team are not Maoris. It should be stopped.

Says the expert on Tikanga Maori and NZ culture.

Personally I think it should be limited to home and the Pacific where its understood and appreciated in its right context so that ‘some’ culturally limited idiots who dont identify with a culture of their own enough to know that other cultures and their customs and artifacts do have a purpose in life, can go through life with their own ignorance, slagging off anything that doesnt quite fit with their morning cuppa and scone.

Our mistake is widening its scope and over representing it but that is just down to people finding their way in the wider world as we all do, testing for ourselves what is acceptable, worthwhile, throughout our sometimes fascinating, sometimes scary, journey of life.

But if it continues to be brought up an eyesore for folks who have nothing better in life to criticise then we’ll get the message. I dont think thats the case yet.

From reading the passage those girls simply didnt know about the response and its meaning so did what they perceived to be a fitting response. On finding out what it meant they will have made sure they got it afterwards and embraced it. Thats how we learn in life. To understand ones differences. Its something to be celebrated not stuck back in the too hard basket because youre not prepared or too lazy to do the hard work of getting to know people.

The Haka, makes the world a slightly better place, not a worse one. Pity some dont get that.

I think this covers it.

Keep it to home games and Pacific regional games. It's a big part of the culture, but the over use cheapens it imo.

I'd miss it! One of the best things about the all blacks coming to Scotland is seeing the Haka live, Scotland haven't toured New Zealand in yonks so it's not like we are oversaturated with it here

Every time i've been at Murrayfield for the All Blacks the crowd seems to love it so it would be disappointing if the touring side removed it

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:32 am

The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by IanBru on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:41 am

I’ve seen the haka performed a few times, and generally I enjoy it. I think there are too many rules about how the opposition can respond (so long as they’re not actually interfering in the haka, who cares whether a player walks off to practice kicking?), but I also think it’s important to respect people’s culture and treat concerns about that respect in good faith.

My lasting experience with the haka is a bit strange, but very personal. My choir sang the anthems at the RWC 2015 matches at St James’ Park in Newcastle, including for NZ v Tonga. We got tickets to watch the match, but knew there wouldn’t be enough time to finish singing, walk off the pitch, then find our seats (up in the gods thanks to the RFU!) before the haka started, so we crowded into an access tunnel in the corner of the stadium. While there are a few rugby fans in the choir, this is very much a football city, so most singers didn’t know what to expect.

I’ll never forget the electrifying look on the faces of these people, who’d mostly never seen a haka (let alone the Tongan Sibi Tau) before. It’s pretty easy when we see the haka five times a year to get a bit jaded, but it’s pretty bloody magic, isn’t it?
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:54 am

ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Tramptastic on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:15 am

The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.

Yeh, it's just rising to the challenge, got bit of theatre, hairs on the back of the neck etc

nothing wrong with it!

There's certain parts of scottish culture that I find extremely twee - Auld Lang Syne being a main bugbear - but I don't think I could ever think of the Haka, as an example of New Zealand/Maori culture, as being twee or naff

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:18 am

No problem with the Haka - do have a problem with all the "respect" issues around it. If it's for the benefit of the New Zealand (Tongan, etc.)  players then do it as part of your warm up routine, is it's for the benefit of the crowd do it towards them, if it's a challenge to the opposition then let them react as they see fit, whether that's staring you down, marching towards you, singing Skippy the Bush Kangaroo or just getting on with their own pre-match rituals - if when both sides playing have a Haka or similar then by all means do it to each other - visitors first as the challengers then get on with the game.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:46 am

The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:48 am

Singing over the haka is our culture don't disrespect it.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:49 am

England #1 still mate?

Been meaning to ask Wink


Last edited by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:51 am

ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

I have never seen a crowd treat it with any disrespect. I remember the Welsh once singing Land of My Fathers during it - if that is showing disrespect then frankly people are looking desperately to be offended.


Do you Ebop (and any other Kiwis) believe that away from home the Haka should be the last thing done before kick off?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:03 pm

I'd say so ebop. Been a while since we could put out that team.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:06 pm

ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

Da fu*ck?!
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

I have never seen a crowd treat it with any disrespect. I remember the Welsh once singing Land of My Fathers during it - if that is showing disrespect then frankly people are looking desperately to be offended.


Do you Ebop (and any other Kiwis) believe that away from home the Haka should be the last thing done before kick off?
Don’t think many kiwis care how teams or fans react, I don’t care. I also don’t care if it’s done at away games or also when it’s done in the build up. Home teams boo and whistle and jeer and I think it’s great as it builds up momentum for the game. Defiance shown to a bunch of players from a small country in the South Pacific. I’d be disappointed if there was silence and polite clapping.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Tramptastic on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:28 pm

ebop wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

I have never seen a crowd treat it with any disrespect. I remember the Welsh once singing Land of My Fathers during it - if that is showing disrespect then frankly people are looking desperately to be offended.


Do you Ebop (and any other Kiwis) believe that away from home the Haka should be the last thing done before kick off?
Don’t think many kiwis care how teams or fans react, I don’t care. I also don’t care if it’s done at away games or also when it’s done in the build up. Home teams boo and whistle and jeer and I think it’s great as it builds up momentum for the game. Defiance shown to a bunch of players from a small country in the South Pacific. I’d be disappointed if there was silence and polite clapping.

I don't know what disdain you are referring to from home fans Ebop? From my personal experience (which is not representative of all the experience) home fans (referring to Scots at this point) have been nothing but thrilled to see it?

Much better theatre than yer national anthem

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:38 pm

The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

Da fu*ck?!
Don’t worry, you’ll always have your anecdote about the time the ABs did the haka in the shed (and then went on to beat Wales to a pulp)
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:49 pm

ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

Da fu*ck?!
Don’t worry, you’ll always have your anecdote about the time the ABs did the haka in the shed (and then went on to beat Wales to a pulp)

Seriously?! You’re accusing me of crying but it was the All Blacks who threw a hissy fit and cried about Wales wanting to sing. You lot have got an overinflated sense of you own self importance.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:11 pm

The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

Da fu*ck?!
Don’t worry, you’ll always have your anecdote about the time the ABs did the haka in the shed (and then went on to beat Wales to a pulp)

Seriously?! You’re accusing me of crying but it was the All Blacks who threw a hissy fit and cried about Wales wanting to sing. You lot have got an overinflated sense of you own self importance.
Calm down sport thumbsup

It’s just a haka

Maybe you should not use terms like ‘you lot’ because that’s a gross generalisation. I don’t go around saying all Welsh people are sooky bubbas.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:18 pm

ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

Da fu*ck?!
Don’t worry, you’ll always have your anecdote about the time the ABs did the haka in the shed (and then went on to beat Wales to a pulp)

Seriously?! You’re accusing me of crying but it was the All Blacks who threw a hissy fit and cried about Wales wanting to sing. You lot have got an overinflated sense of you own self importance.
Calm down sport thumbsup

It’s just a haka

Maybe you should not use terms like ‘you lot’ because that’s a gross generalisation. I don’t go around saying all Welsh people are sooky bubbas.

The biggest 'sooky bubbas' are the All Blacks and their fans who demand everything for their haka and cry 'disrispict' all the time.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:38 pm

Who’s crying disrespect? You’ve got yourself all up into a lather over nothing. It’s so silly. It’s a haka and it’s not the reason your team has not won a game against the ABs for over 60 years. As a peace offering, have ‘another’ kiwi coach, on us.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:42 pm

Re the OP I love seeing the Haka at NZ games. Its a great tradition that I enjoy.

However, on the Lions tour seeing every super rugby side do their own Haka was too much IMO and made it feel over used, a bit tedious and commercial.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 2:34 pm

ebop wrote:Who’s crying disrespect? You’ve got yourself all up into a lather over nothing. It’s so silly. It’s a haka and it’s not the reason your team has not won a game against the ABs for over 60 years. As a peace offering, have ‘another’ kiwi coach, on us.

New Zealand fans, players and coaches every time anything happens in relation to the haka.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 3:43 pm

[quote="LondonTiger"]
ebop wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.


I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.
Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

I have never seen a crowd treat it with any disrespect. I remember the Welsh once singing Land of My Fathers during it - if that is showing disrespect then frankly people are looking desperately to be offended.


Do you Ebop (and any other Kiwis) believe that away from home the Haka should be the last thing done before kick off? [/quote]


As a Kiwi: What I prersonally would prefer is that the haka be performed after the game. shirts off (A proper Haka),and only after the All Blacks have been victoriuos, and any silverware has been presented, it would give the ABs an incentive to win - I think Sevens has got it right.

In these days, where everything is governed by the mighty television, their argument would be that they couldnt continue running the broadcast after the game till a Haka was performed.


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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:16 pm

Shirts off? That's really what you want to see?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:33 pm

A few problems with that Laurie on logical grounds.

Firstly... and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Haka a symbolic return to the time when ships would come from across the ocean and the sailors/foreigners/guests/enemies were greeted with this ceremony to denote welcome or war?
In any case, it's a ceremony for the beginning of things (war/welcomes) so wouldn't it be a little silly then to be performing the Haka when the ships are sails up and already going home?  The Haka IS for the visitor's benefit (enemy before battle or visitor just arrived) as far as I'm aware, despite what some players might say.

The other point leads on from the first point:  Do you think many of a possible 70,000 strong Non-Kiwi audience would stay in their seats to have an 86-3 losing scoreline rubbed in their faces by the lads in Black doing their Haka at the end?

I think the ABs themselves might be disrespecting the nature of the Haka to do it in a stadium that is emptying rapidly to the trains, the pubs and the toilets.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:57 pm

Nah No problems at all:

Polynesian culture isnt as orderly and proper as European culture, the haka is all embracing and can be done as a expression of mana (respect) at any time, not only to an enemy but also as an expression of respect to a Kaumatua or tohunga (An elder) this is why haka can be seen performed at funerals.

The following is a You Tube clip of the haka performed by old All Black team mates at the funeral of Jonah Lomu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtdrDETAqU

Your second point: As always, anyone can respond to the Haka in the manner that they feel appropriate, if they want to go to the pub or the toilet then thats their choice. remeber its not Kiwis that put rules in place as to how far apart the teams must stand, etc etc, that was IRB/World Rugby.

David Campese went and practised some up and unders during a Haka, thats just fine, he was respecting the challenge by preparing himself for the battle, I do not recall any instances of him being labelled as disrespectful by any Kiwis for doing so.

Anyway enjoy the Haka at Jonahs funeral at a near empty Eden Park.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 16 Aug 2018, 6:35 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:Nah No problems at all:

Polynesian culture isnt as orderly and proper as European culture, the haka is all embracing and can be done as a expression of mana (respect) at any time, not only to an enemy but also as an expression of respect to a Kaumatua or tohunga (An elder) this is why haka can be seen performed at funerals.

The following is a You Tube clip of the haka performed by old All Black team mates at the funeral of Jonah Lomu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtdrDETAqU

Your second point: As always, anyone can respond to the Haka in the manner that they feel appropriate, if they want to go to the pub or the toilet then thats their choice. remeber its not Kiwis that put rules in place as to how far apart the teams must stand, etc etc, that was IRB/World Rugby.

David Campese went and practised some up and unders during a Haka, thats just fine, he was respecting the challenge by preparing himself for the battle, I do not recall any instances of him being labelled as disrespectful by any Kiwis for doing so.

Anyway enjoy the Haka at Jonahs funeral at a near empty Eden Park.

Laurie, not looking for an argument but you say that anyone can respond to the haka in any way they feel appropriate. Yet there’s lots of examples of people like Nonu and Graham Henry criticising players and fans for either singing during it or disrespecting it in some way so I take it your viewpoint is not a universally held one across NZ?
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 5:14 am


I would have thought that my opinion is quite reflective of New Zealanders, If more New Zealanders were of the same opinion as Nonu and Graham Henry then Im sure we would have heard more about it.


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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 8:06 am

Do you mean you don’t believe they had an issue (i.e. it didn’t happen)? Or you don’t believe it was an issue in NZ?
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 1:43 pm

What I mean is that you know far more about it than me, when did this happen? I had not heard of all this criticism especially of International players from other countries. Its always possible that something could have been said and I didnt know about it.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the haka is a far bigger issue outside of New Zealand. The average Kiwi (that I know) is far more concerned about the rugby than the Haka, and I think that is reflected in the posts of the 3 Kiwis who have posted comment above on this thread.


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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Tramptastic on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 1:46 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:What I mean is that you know far more about it than me, when did this happen? I had not heard of all this criticism especially of International players from other countries. Its always possible that something could have been said and I didnt know about it.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the haka is a far bigger issue outside of New Zealand. The average Kiwi (that I know) is far more concerned about the rugby than the Haka, and I think that is reflected in the posts of the 3 Kiwis who have posted comment above on this thread.


That's a good point, especially seen as nobody complains about the Cibi?

Would indicate people should be more concerned they get thumped regularly by the all blacks than whether the haka is relevant etc

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 2:03 pm

A game of Rugby takes 80 minutes, a haka takes about 1 minute, I ve seen scrums take longer than a haka.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by alanmackie6 on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 4:44 pm

The haka was abandoned on the last proper tour to Uk 1972-3 bought back for the barbarians match

by public request..

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 5:38 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:What I mean is that you know far more about it than me, when did this happen? I had not heard of all this criticism especially of International players from other countries. Its always possible that something could have been said and I didnt know about it

For me, laurie, my disillusionment with the haka can be dated back to the 2005 Lions tour.

The Lions captain, Brian O'Driscoll, was very conscious of wanting to show respect, and consulted Maori elders on the most appropriate reponse. At the time, though, there were NZers who excused what subsequently happened on the grounds that BOD had been insulting.

What did happen? Within moments of the first Test beginning, Umaga and Mealamu had double-tackled O'Driscoll, and put him out of rugby for months. The match referee, Joel Jutge, has subsequently said he would have awarded at least one red card if he had seen the incident in real time. Yes, World Rugby later changed its rules to ensure that Umaga and Mealamu would be punished, but Jutge was clear that he would have had that power at the time.

Like O'Driscoll, I don't believe the players colluded in trying to cripple him. I think they were both over-hyped Something similar happened when Schalk Burger gouged Luke Fitzgerald in 2009.

So, the Lions captain was in agony on the floor, and no New Zealand player approached him to see if he was OK. It was only as BOD was being carried off that Justin Marshall saw him off. To this day, I cannot understand why Tana Umaga did not approach his opposite number to see how he was. You cannot speak of the haka and respect when your captain doesn't show the basic respect which rugby players at all levels expect to see.

Funnily enough, I agree with ebop that a lot of the modern response to the haka probably comes from the fact teams keep losing to New Zealand. I don't think we'd talk about it so much if New Zealand lost more than they won.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Aug 2018, 6:04 pm

Rugby Fan wrote: I don't think we'd talk about it so much if New Zealand lost more than they won.

As Cilla Black might have said: A lorrah talk about the Haka to come then in the course of the next decade... or four!

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

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