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Post by Diggers on Sat 29 Sep 2018, 1:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Re Sterling, he’s got more PL assists than any English player in the last year, 3rd most of anyone. As well as a shedload of goals, what a poopie player he is!!
Could this be it for Jose, I certainly hope so.

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Post by pedro on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 9:22 am

Roller_Coaster wrote:Probably did, but I didn't know what it was or meant so I googled it (also!) and now I do know. Even if I'm unlikely to ever use it.
I guess you prefer übermenschen?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 9:33 am

Diggers wrote:Just a note that in amongst the Brexit poopiestorm, yet another Govt u turn, this time on gaming machines. Having originally kowtowed (which in itself was a u turn to the original statement) to the gaming companies (losing by all accounts one of the few ministers who actually does give a toss about people and principles) they’ve now bowed to govt and public pressure.
Of course, they’ll call it being pragmatic. I call it chancing your arm to see if you can get away with it because you don’t care about the consequences of your actions. That’s what makes this govt really, really unpalatable.
But presumably better making these changes now, instead of next year? Perhaps they should remain in the pocket (if that is in fact the case) of the gaming companies?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 9:36 am

Watch the use of ünter/übermenschen. Plenty of other words to get the point across, none of us are German as far as I know and those have particular connotations.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 9:52 am

Super

Do you think someone immersed in the left has to Google anti semitic terms?
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Post by NedB-H on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 10:31 am

Anyway, while we’re quibbling over German semantics it looks like the whole Brexit house of cards is toppling over. I can’t see May’s deal getting through Parliament, which surely must trigger a GE; and if by some miracle she does squeeze it through, the Tory will surely mount a leadership challenge.

We may well see soon whether Corbyn (or more accurately Starmer) have had a plan all along or are just winging it.

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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 10:45 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?

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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 11:07 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Just a note that in amongst the Brexit poopiestorm, yet another Govt u turn, this time on gaming machines. Having originally kowtowed (which in itself was a u turn to the original statement) to the gaming companies (losing by all accounts one of the few ministers who actually does give a toss about people and principles) they’ve now bowed to govt and public pressure.
Of course, they’ll call it being pragmatic. I call it chancing your arm to see if you can get away with it because you don’t care about the consequences of your actions. That’s what makes this govt really, really unpalatable.
But presumably better making these changes now, instead of next year? Perhaps they should remain in the pocket (if that is in fact the case) of the gaming companies?

They are only making the change (back to the original date) because the Tory back bench threatened the revolt. How does that infer any cr sit on the Government for doing what was blatantly the right think in the first place?

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 11:27 am

raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?

All leavers, but some are in favour of legalisation of cannabis?

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 11:30 am

pedro wrote:
Roller_Coaster wrote:Probably did, but I didn't know what it was or meant so I googled it (also!) and now I do know. Even if I'm unlikely to ever use it.
I guess you prefer übermenschen?

Maybe that's why I'm unlikely to use what Mac used, it was spelled rong [sic]

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Post by pedro on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 11:58 am

Roller_Coaster wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?

All leavers, but some are in favour of legalisation of cannabis?
#Brexit are the young ones. Brexit the old ones.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:00 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:
pedro wrote:
Roller_Coaster wrote:Probably did, but I didn't know what it was or meant so I googled it (also!) and now I do know. Even if I'm unlikely to ever use it.
I guess you prefer übermenschen?

Maybe that's why I'm unlikely to use what Mac used, it was spelled rong [sic]

It was super that used it.
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Post by pedro on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:00 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?
Leave is a more emotional vote, Remain is a more rational vote. That also explains some of it.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:01 pm

[quote="raycastleunited"]
super_realist wrote:

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?

Don't know? Is this the start of a joke?
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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:02 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?

All leavers, but some are in favour of legalisation of cannabis?

I think that the penny has dropped with a lot of leavers that the version of leave they want (and there are many) won't happen, as such remain remains a better option. Most people appear to be in consensus that remain is preferable to the current proposal. I can't really see what would convince many remainders to switch to leave, they might not want another referendum but if there was one I'd imagine most would still vote remain.
Also the protest voters (what a farce that is) just won't vote again, and they all voted leave. Plus 2 million more younger voters.
I think remain would sail through another referendum. So it should, it's the right decision. I don't hear mush talk of Project Fear now...because it was should have always been called Project Stating the Obvious or Project Common Sense.


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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:03 pm

pedro wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?
Leave is a more emotional vote, Remain is a more rational vote. That also explains some of it.

Why do you think that?

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Post by pedro on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:17 pm

Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?
Leave is a more emotional vote, Remain is a more rational vote. That also explains some of it.

Why do you think that?
The arguments that EU equals big corporations, banks, capitalists, bureaucrats and that Britain must regain sovereignty and control of own borders etc. are for me all emotional reasons for voting Leave. It's just like throwing toys out of the pram.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:21 pm

Emotional would be the kind way of saying it. Utterly moronic might be a better way to put it.
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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:40 pm

pedro wrote:
Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

When you voted for #Brexit did you think it would take the form of the deal May is about to put forward?


Would you still have voted for #Brexit if you had known what you now know?

Mac, for every Brexit voter who didn't really know why they voted, I would imagine there's also a considerable number of Remain voters who didn't really know why they were voting for that either. It goes both ways.

The stats imply that on the whole, Remain voters are more intelligent than Leave, and are certainly more educated.

Mac - what's the difference between Brexit and #Brexit?
Leave is a more emotional vote, Remain is a more rational vote. That also explains some of it.

Why do you think that?
The arguments that EU equals big corporations, banks, capitalists, bureaucrats and that Britain must regain sovereignty and control of own borders etc. are for me all emotional reasons for voting Leave. It's just like throwing toys out of the pram.

Hmm, not sure I see that, I think you can apply rational or emotional choice to all of the arguments, it basically comes down to the person making the decision. You could say young voters (remainers) are more likely to vote emotionally than old people (more leavers).

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:42 pm

Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Just a note that in amongst the Brexit poopiestorm, yet another Govt u turn, this time on gaming machines. Having originally kowtowed (which in itself was a u turn to the original statement) to the gaming companies (losing by all accounts one of the few ministers who actually does give a toss about people and principles) they’ve now bowed to govt and public pressure.
Of course, they’ll call it being pragmatic. I call it chancing your arm to see if you can get away with it because you don’t care about the consequences of your actions. That’s what makes this govt really, really unpalatable.
But presumably better making these changes now, instead of next year? Perhaps they should remain in the pocket (if that is in fact the case) of the gaming companies?

They are only making the change (back to the original date) because the Tory back bench threatened the revolt. How does that infer any cr sit on the Government for doing what was blatantly the right think in the first place?
It doesn't really, but presumably you'd rather they changed this date than leave as they were planning?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:44 pm

McLaren wrote:Emotional would be the kind way of saying it.  Utterly moronic might be a better way to put it.
picard And there, in a nutshell, is why we are leaving the EU and Trump is in the White House.
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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:50 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Just a note that in amongst the Brexit poopiestorm, yet another Govt u turn, this time on gaming machines. Having originally kowtowed (which in itself was a u turn to the original statement) to the gaming companies (losing by all accounts one of the few ministers who actually does give a toss about people and principles) they’ve now bowed to govt and public pressure.
Of course, they’ll call it being pragmatic. I call it chancing your arm to see if you can get away with it because you don’t care about the consequences of your actions. That’s what makes this govt really, really unpalatable.
But presumably better making these changes now, instead of next year? Perhaps they should remain in the pocket (if that is in fact the case) of the gaming companies?

They are only making the change (back to the original date) because the Tory back bench threatened the revolt. How does that infer any cr sit on the Government for doing what was blatantly the right think in the first place?
It doesn't really, but presumably you'd rather they changed this date than leave as they were planning?

I’d rather they did the decent thing in the first place. Not only do it because they were forced to.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:05 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Emotional would be the kind way of saying it.  Utterly moronic might be a better way to put it.
:picard: And there, in a nutshell, is why we are leaving the EU and Trump is in the White House.


I agree, the morons put us in this position.
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Post by JAS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:16 pm

I simply don’t buy it that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Of course the downside of leaving is that if you do want to change an organisation for the better you can only do it from the INSIDE. Where that fell down for me was that the vested interests that control the EU would never commit to the kind of change required to make it a palatable organisation.

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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:28 pm

JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Of course the downside of leaving is that if you do want to change an organisation for the better you can only do it from the INSIDE. Where that fell down for me was that the vested interests that control the EU would never commit to the kind of change required to make it a palatable organisation.

I agree with a lot of this - in the context of the first referendum. I genuinely believe now, faced with what we know, where we are and how impossible getting a leave deal consensus is (basically all worse than remaining) that anyone still supporting leave is making a very poor choice.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:42 pm

Jas

You voted with the morons, does that make you one? Lets just say it was a lapse in judgement.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:52 pm

Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Just a note that in amongst the Brexit poopiestorm, yet another Govt u turn, this time on gaming machines. Having originally kowtowed (which in itself was a u turn to the original statement) to the gaming companies (losing by all accounts one of the few ministers who actually does give a toss about people and principles) they’ve now bowed to govt and public pressure.
Of course, they’ll call it being pragmatic. I call it chancing your arm to see if you can get away with it because you don’t care about the consequences of your actions. That’s what makes this govt really, really unpalatable.
But presumably better making these changes now, instead of next year? Perhaps they should remain in the pocket (if that is in fact the case) of the gaming companies?

They are only making the change (back to the original date) because the Tory back bench threatened the revolt. How does that infer any cr sit on the Government for doing what was blatantly the right think in the first place?
It doesn't really, but presumably you'd rather they changed this date than leave as they were planning?

I’d rather they did the decent thing in the first place. Not only do it because they were forced to.
Me too, but at least they changed it and they could have stuck to their guns. Could be worse.
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Post by JAS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:53 pm

Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Of course the downside of leaving is that if you do want to change an organisation for the better you can only do it from the INSIDE. Where that fell down for me was that the vested interests that control the EU would never commit to the kind of change required to make it a palatable organisation.

I agree with a lot of this - in the context of the first referendum. I genuinely believe now, faced with what we know, where we are and how impossible getting a leave deal  consensus is (basically all worse than remaining) that anyone still supporting leave is making a very poor choice.

...and now I do wonder, given how Brexit negs have gone on both sides and the fact that other Nations like Italy are teetering on the edge. Has the EU had enough of a wake up call that if it is to survive for the purpose that it was originally created, it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:55 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Emotional would be the kind way of saying it.  Utterly moronic might be a better way to put it.
picard And there, in a nutshell, is why we are leaving the EU and Trump is in the White House.


I agree, the morons put us in this position.
And it goes straight over his head....

What I meant was, calling those that disagree with you morons is indicative of why Brexit/Trump voters gave you the finger and voted that way anyway. I'm not totally innocent of that sort of thing, but that sort of thing is a good way to entrench opinion and have people do something you consider irrational. Kind of as a f**k you.


Last edited by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:56 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

You voted with the morons, does that make you one? Lets just say it was a lapse in judgement.
picard
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Post by JAS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:57 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

You voted with the morons, does that make you one? Lets just say it was a lapse in judgement.
I would hazard a guess that the moron vote was pretty evenly 3 way split as well between Leave, Remain and too thick to find their way to the polling station.

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Post by JAS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:02 pm

Mac you remind me of late 70s music journalists trying to claim the the Sex Pistols we’re calling the queen a moron in God Save the queen....
“God save the queen,
the fascist regime
It made you a moron
Potential H-bomb”

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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:05 pm

JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Of course the downside of leaving is that if you do want to change an organisation for the better you can only do it from the INSIDE. Where that fell down for me was that the vested interests that control the EU would never commit to the kind of change required to make it a palatable organisation.

I agree with a lot of this - in the context of the first referendum. I genuinely believe now, faced with what we know, where we are and how impossible getting a leave deal  consensus is (basically all worse than remaining) that anyone still supporting leave is making a very poor choice.

...and now I do wonder, given how Brexit negs have gone on both sides and the fact that other Nations like Italy are teetering on the edge. Has the EU had enough of a wake up call that if it is to survive for the purpose that it was originally created, it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.

I think what we have is infinitely preferable to countries dropping out and becoming increasingly nationalist. But it could certainly be improved.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:11 pm

Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Of course the downside of leaving is that if you do want to change an organisation for the better you can only do it from the INSIDE. Where that fell down for me was that the vested interests that control the EU would never commit to the kind of change required to make it a palatable organisation.

I agree with a lot of this - in the context of the first referendum. I genuinely believe now, faced with what we know, where we are and how impossible getting a leave deal  consensus is (basically all worse than remaining) that anyone still supporting leave is making a very poor choice.

...and now I do wonder, given how Brexit negs have gone on both sides and the fact that other Nations like Italy are teetering on the edge. Has the EU had enough of a wake up call that if it is to survive for the purpose that it was originally created, it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.

I think what we have is infinitely preferable to countries dropping out and becoming increasingly nationalist. But it could certainly be improved.
Yeah. Kind of funny that if the EU looks inward and makes some necessary changes, we'll be on the outside looking in. Pity we never thought to engage seriously before this.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:12 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Emotional would be the kind way of saying it.  Utterly moronic might be a better way to put it.
:picard: And there, in a nutshell, is why we are leaving the EU and Trump is in the White House.


I agree, the morons put us in this position.
And it goes straight over his head....

What I meant was, calling those that disagree with you morons is indicative of why Brexit/Trump voters gave you the finger and voted that way anyway. I'm not totally innocent of that sort of thing, but that sort of thing is a good way to entrench opinion and have people do something you consider irrational. Kind of as a f**k you.


Are you saying I shouldn't mention the fact they are educationally challenged to protect their feelings and stop them voting against their own best interests?  Because I will still enjoy the benefits of being a white middle class guy after brexit and they may well be buggered.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:13 pm

JAS wrote:Mac you remind me of late 70s music journalists trying to claim the the Sex Pistols we’re calling the queen a moron in God Save the queen....
“God save the queen,
the fascist regime
It made you a moron
Potential H-bomb”

Is this a compliment?
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Post by pedro on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:19 pm

JAS wrote:it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.
This is what I call an emotional argument. There may be flaws about the EU but this is not what it is about.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:22 pm

pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.
This is what I call an emotional argument. There may be flaws about the EU but this is not what it is about.

More like "tin foil hat" as Super would say.
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Post by pedro on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:23 pm

JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Well it's a long time ago Labour cared about working class people (i.e. people who actually have a real job). Maybe you should have written low class.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:27 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Emotional would be the kind way of saying it.  Utterly moronic might be a better way to put it.
picard And there, in a nutshell, is why we are leaving the EU and Trump is in the White House.


I agree, the morons put us in this position.
And it goes straight over his head....

What I meant was, calling those that disagree with you morons is indicative of why Brexit/Trump voters gave you the finger and voted that way anyway. I'm not totally innocent of that sort of thing, but that sort of thing is a good way to entrench opinion and have people do something you consider irrational. Kind of as a f**k you.


Are you saying I shouldn't mention the fact they are educationally challenged to protect their feelings and stop them voting against their own best interests?  Because I will still enjoy the benefits of being a white middle class guy after brexit and they may well be buggered.
I'm saying a) you don't have a clue what the motivation is of someone who voted out (see Jas's comments, above), but inline with your approaches elsewhere to evidence and b) your sort of attitude directly contributes to the outcome you profess not to want.

In point of fact, you have no idea whether Brexit will be positive or not. Neither do I. For all we know, you could be a moron OK.
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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:20 pm

pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.
This is what I call an emotional argument. There may be flaws about the EU but this is not what it is about.

Nailed it.

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Post by JAS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:27 pm

pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Well it's a long time ago Labour cared about working class people (i.e. people who actually have a real job). Maybe you should have written low class.

That in a nutshell is Labour’s biggest problem. I believe they do (or at least they do far better than the Tories) but I concede they are currently hopeless at trying to convey that to “Macs morons”.

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Post by dynamark on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:30 pm

Hi guys little bit behind with this due to work(I know) but I'm thinking May gets the P45 a new PM maybe 6 weeks time and a walk away thankyou and goodnight brexit WTO rules get on with it bit of aggro but soon sorted.Would that involve any sort of parliamentary vote that could force an election I don't think so ? So whilst Jezza can sit tight mouth shut and hope for an election clean exitthat could very easily be the result and that is possibly what a lot of folk envisaged when they they were voting.You will still be able to buy a new BMW go to Spain and have a Rioja.
Interesting times

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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:50 pm

JAS wrote:
pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:I simply don’t buy it  that a leave vote is by default a moronic emotional vote. I would concede that there are a lot of working class poor that voted leave on an anti immigration/closet racist ticket. Just because their logic is flawed doesn’t mean all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush. I could easily apply the same logic and labels to lower income working class people who vote Tory.
Well it's a long time ago Labour cared about working class people (i.e. people who actually have a real job). Maybe you should have written low class.

That in a nutshell is Labour’s biggest problem. I believe they do (or at least they do far better than the Tories) but I concede they are currently hopeless at trying to convey that to “Macs morons”.

I agree, people moan about a socialist agenda, then they have one that does quite forcefully advance equality and they get shot down as mad lefties. Again, I don’t think the Labour Party is any more ideologically driven than the Tories are right now. It’s just people are more used to right of centre policy.

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Post by JAS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:51 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:it should contemplate some sort of reform and look to going back to being collaborative for the common good rather hyper-integrationist for the general benefit of global corporate interest.
This is what I call an emotional argument. There may be flaws about the EU but this is not what it is about.

Nailed it.

It was quietly and calmly typed without tears!!
I really don’t think it’s emotional to believe that some large corporations have more control/influenceover policy making than the voting population does. Are you seriously trying to say that The Goldman Sachs of this world have no say in economic policy making, that the Google’s of this world have no influence in privacy policy (or indeed tax policy). Same would go for the likes of BP and energy policy, GSK on drug/healthcare etc.
Or do you think Government is always in control of “special interest” lobbying e.g. the US Govt are totally in control of firearms policy and not influenced in any way by say the NRA??
Politicians are always susceptible to outside influence. Elected ones can always be turfed out if they’re exposed and the public are pissed off enough about it. Unelected commissioners however are not answerable to their electorate. Call me emotional all you like but I don’t find that kind of Poopie acceptable.

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Post by NedB-H on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 4:45 pm

dynamark wrote:Hi guys little bit behind with this due to work(I know) but I'm thinking May gets the P45 a new PM maybe 6 weeks time and a walk away thankyou and goodnight  brexit WTO rules get on with it bit of aggro but soon sorted.Would that involve any sort of parliamentary vote that could force an election I don't think so ? So whilst Jezza can sit tight mouth shut and hope for an election clean exitthat could very easily be the result and that is possibly what a lot of folk envisaged when they they were voting.You will still be able to buy a new BMW go to Spain and have a Rioja.
Interesting times
I think you might be underestimating the strength of the remain/soft Brexit flank of the Tories dyna.

I agree that a leadership challenge is the most likely outcome. If May somehow forced her deal through the commons, the Brexiteers will have no option left but to challenge her. Assuming she can’t get her deal through, she’ll surely have to call an election unless she’s happy with no deal. And there’s no point from a Brexiteer perspective in going in to another election with May as leader.
Where I disagree with your analysis is that I don’t think it’s a given that the Brexiteers will force her out. And if they do manage it, I’d expect the Tory remainers to force an election one way or another, as their final throw of the dice.

I’m a Labour supporting remainer, but if I was a Tory remainer I’d be backing May’s deal right now as the best of a bad bunch of choices.

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Post by dynamark on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 5:33 pm

I'm pretty neutral all round but no deal is still leaving the EU which was the vote and arrangements will be made albeit a bit of a rush no doubt.
I'm just not seeing the world ending on that day.That would leave an Irish border issue but both of the the Irish would have to make the best of it .They are 2 independant countries but complex history .Mess tbh

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Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 5:38 pm

Jas

Do you think an "independent" Uk is less susceptible to big business interference in government policy than the EU is?
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Post by Diggers on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 5:49 pm

You just can’t have a no deal. The Good Friday Agreement is probably a bigger deal than Brexit in many ways.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 6:15 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Do you think someone immersed in the left has to Google anti semitic terms?

Mac, it doesn't relate to Jews in particular. Being immersed in the left as you claim to be is no excuse, you should be exposed to all sorts of language, news, politics etc and not be so focussed on only consuming one particular line.

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Post by beninho on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 6:23 pm

I thought it was pretty clear that no deal is a shtshow which would be a fricking nighmare. Yet people still think this is a viable option.

I hate how she declares the end of fom like its a good thing.

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