England World Cup Warm Ups

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Don't expect the snazzy pics produced on better match threads!

England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.


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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 12:22 pm

Ludlam is more of a 7 than a 6, 1.92m only 104kg he is the size of a modern 7, good on the ground, quick around the park and can play with the ball in hand. Only really broke into the Saints 1st XV this year, but once he got the chance he was keeping the likes of Wood, Gibson and when fit Brussow out of the starting side.

His lineout out is good as well, so another plus.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 12:42 pm

yappysnap wrote:I can see Eddie taking Shields even if he misses those warm ups. He's shown before he'll gamble on players coming good in tournaments with Hughes and Billy V.

Billy V is an absolutely top class player. Hughes isn't but provides the kind of bulk at 8 that we don't have without Billy. Shields is obviously highly rated but it is not like we can't find quality substitutes

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 12:52 pm

Its obviously too late for Sam Simmonds to be considered...

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 12:54 pm

Ill say again...Sam Simmonds should have been a dynamic beast of a 12!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 12:56 pm

Are we (England) really second favorites for the WC??? Seems to be on Bet365.

I wouldnt have us near that.

I put a £10 on South Africa - 6/1

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Post by Rinsure on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 1:07 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill say again...Sam Simmonds should have been a dynamic beast of a 12!

In the Sam Burgess mould? Beast in the back row, lost in the backs?


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 2:32 pm

England should be favourites not second. It's people judging results rather than talent. Hence why wales are unrealistically high

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 2:44 pm

Tut. You changed my post yesterday LT.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 2:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:England should be favourites not second. It's people judging results rather than talent. Hence why wales are unrealistically high
Last time I looked the RWC was awarded based on results not talent. Anyway I am not sure what talent is if it does not result in winning matches. There are no style marks in rugby.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 2:55 pm

Rinsure wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill say again...Sam Simmonds should have been a dynamic beast of a 12!

In the Sam Burgess mould? Beast in the back row, lost in the backs?


We lost the game because Sam Burgess went off...

PS I would have had Burgess as a back rower not a back.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 3:10 pm

Depends if you look at wales results when they're at their peak creeping past england playing mediocre at home and thinking yes, that's my team.
Ah Burgess at 6 and we could be talking best ever blindside.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 31 Jul 2019, 4:38 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill say again...Sam Simmonds should have been a dynamic beast of a 12!

I think he's a very handy player all around with a great engine and serious pace. He just doesn't have bulk. Going forward there are lots of interesting permutations but a Dombrandt /Simmonds/ Curry or Underhill back row would be fun.

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Post by Rinsure on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 8:25 am

Mike Brown called up to Treviso: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/31/mike-brown-england-world-cup

Good.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 9:14 am

Brown has been there the entire time?

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Post by Yoda on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 9:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:England should be favourites not second. It's people judging results rather than talent. Hence why wales are unrealistically high

Is this what you really think or are you on the wind up? I admire your confidence but not so sure myself. Happy to be wrong though Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 9:48 am

I've never seen the point of posting stuff which you dont agree with. I was slightly worried about south Africa rising to the challenge but the game at the weekend has reassured me.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 11:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown has been there the entire time?

Yes.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 11:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:England should be favourites not second. It's people judging results rather than talent. Hence why wales are unrealistically high

Sorry but absolute Love sacks. Perceived talent is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is what you do on the pitch. Most fans are at risk of overassessing their favourites' talent and talking down others. England do not have a huge number of talented players who have been underperforming and will suddenly come good. We have a decent team, that could do well but that is unlikely to beat the best teams in the big games. I base that on our performances rather than a romanticised view of our "talent".

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 11:59 am

Unlikely to beat the best teams? Cant see that at all.

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Post by Rinsure on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown has been there the entire time?

Yes.

Hmmm.. sorry about that. Somewhat misleading article, then!


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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unlikely to beat the best teams? Cant see that at all.

TBH because it seems to me you disregard results and wear rose tinted specs re our ability. We should win our group. A 1/4 final against Australia is definitely winnable but there is a risk we could choke. Away from Twickenham a 1/4 final against Wales would be tough. A semi against NZ or SA would see us as underdogs.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:08 pm

Rinsure wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown has been there the entire time?

Yes.

Hmmm.. sorry about that. Somewhat misleading article, then!


Only the sub-heading really, which can be misconstrued as the call-up for this camp being recent. Brown was omitted from the two weeks before they flew to Italy but was added for this particular fortnight coming to an end tomorrow.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:13 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Unlikely to beat the best teams? Cant see that at all.

TBH because it seems to me you disregard results and wear rose tinted specs re our ability. We should win our group. A 1/4 final against Australia is definitely winnable but there is a risk we could choke. Away from Twickenham a 1/4 final against Wales would be tough. A semi against NZ or SA would see us as underdogs.

I agree. England's recent form has done nothing to suggest we should be the favourites for the world cup. In the Six Nations alone we were outplayed in the second half against a spirited and well-drilled Welsh side, and then completely capitulated against Scotland. The game in Cardiff was the perfect opportunity to show that we were capable of beating a very, very good team away from home in a particularly hostile environment, and we totally blew it. The Scotland game was just hands-down very odd.

At the moment, I perceive England as a very talented and capable side, but one prone to brain farts and unable to cope with consistent pressure. If I were a non-English fan I'd see England as a dangerous side but definitely beatable.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:19 pm

I fall between the two camps. I think we can beat anyone on our day, but would expect us to lose more often than not against NZ / Ireland based on the last couple of years.

I'd be disappointed to lose against anyone else, although I've not watched any of South Africa's recent performances

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Post by Brad71090 on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:27 pm

South Africa you could argue are peaking just right for the World Cup the reverse fixture against the ABs will be a big tell of where they currently stand.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:28 pm

BamBam wrote:I fall between the two camps. I think we can beat anyone on our day, but would expect us to lose more often than not against NZ / Ireland based on the last couple of years.

I'd be disappointed to lose against anyone else, although I've not watched any of South Africa's recent performances

I think you've just summed up my feeling more coherently and concisely.

I can't remember a time when the top tier teams have all been so close to each other in terms of ability as they are at the moment. The gap between NZ and everyone else is certainly less than it has been in a long time, and I do think anyone in the top 5 could beat each other on any given day. I guess my concerns are just me being rather pessimistic and not wanting to get my hopes up, as I did in 2015, which all ended terribly badly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:29 pm

I do disregard results to an extent LT. for instance away to wales a rather lacklustre performance yet we still should have comfortably put them away. A dead rubber vs Scotland with nothing to play for. When we thrash wales next week has the team become suddenly better? Not for me. No indent wearcrose tinted specs just say what I think to be true. I've said it before its sport so anything can happen but I can only see 3 or 4 possible winners at the wc. England nz ireland sa in that order.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:30 pm

Brad71090 wrote:South Africa you could argue are peaking just right for the World Cup the reverse fixture against the ABs will be a big tell of where they currently stand.

Definitely. Their pack has always been superb and immensely physical, but they seem to have found the correct blend of backs to fit their game plan now. South Africa now fill me with dread again, which to be honest, is how you want it right? Rugby isn't rugby without a decent Bok team.


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Post by Yoda on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do disregard results to an extent LT. for instance away to wales a rather lacklustre performance yet we still should have comfortably put them away. A dead rubber vs Scotland with nothing to play for. When we thrash wales next week has the team become suddenly better? Not for me. No indent wearcrose tinted specs just say what I think to be true. I've said it before its sport so anything can happen but I can only see 3 or 4 possible winners at the wc. England nz ireland sa in that order.

Wish I could be as confident as you. Personally if we reach semi it would be about right (but even then I can also see us mess up and exit stage right), final above expected and win would be a massive surprise imo.

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Post by Brad71090 on Thu 01 Aug 2019, 12:54 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
Brad71090 wrote:South Africa you could argue are peaking just right for the World Cup the reverse fixture against the ABs will be a big tell of where they currently stand.

Definitely. Their pack has always been superb and immensely physical, but they seem to have found the correct blend of backs to fit their game plan now. South Africa now fear me with dread again, which to be honest, is how you want it right? Rugby isn't rugby without a decent Bok team.

Completely agree, I used to be in awe of how physical SA were... that seems to be back now and with added guile in the backs. If all clicks for them I think they could go all the way at the WC. NZ are NZ underestimate them at your peril but that being said that haven't been blowing everyone away. Winning is winning and that is what they are good at.

As for the NH teams.... I fear ENG just don't have it mentally and keep blowing huge leads over teams or are so slow to react to changing tactics.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 04 Aug 2019, 3:58 pm

What are people hoping to see in terms of squad next week then? For me a bit of a mixture

Marler George Cole
Launchbury itoje
Dombrandt underhill
Vunipola
Spencer farrell
May tuilagi Joseph cokansiga brown

Vunipola LCD sinckler wilson kruis youngs Watson daly.

Not what is pick first game of the world cup but near enough a starting lineup to bring out the best in some fringe guys.

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Post by Yoda on Sun 04 Aug 2019, 5:05 pm

Baring in mind he's naming his final squad a day after the first Wales game it does seem likely some fringe players will be seen first up. Dombrandt at 8? To see if he can play there against tough oppo. It would also be interesting to see if anyone else can play 12 effectively with manu at 13 if we decided to focus a physical attack on the 13 channel.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 04 Aug 2019, 7:46 pm

Interesting and largely sensible take on a possible England XV from RugbyPass:

Rugby Pass England XV

Some interesting choices - Marler, Dombrandt, Spencer, Watson - peppered into a largely obvious first choice XV

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 04 Aug 2019, 10:18 pm

Poorfour wrote:Interesting and largely sensible take on a possible England XV from RugbyPass:

Rugby Pass England XV

Some interesting choices - Marler, Dombrandt, Spencer, Watson - peppered into a largely obvious first choice XV

Have to say I think that's very close to what may actually be the team. Watson is almost certain to start in my eyes as he's missed so much rugby but is pure class, and Spencer deserves a start. Eddie will be looking for the win here, and if Dombrandt plays as well as he did against the Baa-Baas he could get himself on the plane. Cokanasiga is a frightening prospect for any opponent to face, but I bet he's licking his chops to get on the scoresheet at HQ again. He's another who I think will be a welcome addition to our RWC squad. Eddie may well use him as an impact player. The majority of the squad we all know about, but there are places up for grabs and some tight calls to be made. I'd be interested to see what the bench will be too.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:21 am

Yoda wrote:Baring in mind he's naming his final squad a day after the first Wales game it does seem likely some fringe players will be seen first up. Dombrandt at 8? To see if he can play there against tough oppo. It would also be interesting to see if anyone else can play 12 effectively with manu at 13 if we decided to focus a physical attack on the 13 channel.

Eddie is giving the press conference in the nude?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 1:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Yoda wrote:Baring in mind he's naming his final squad a day after the first Wales game it does seem likely some fringe players will be seen first up. Dombrandt at 8? To see if he can play there against tough oppo. It would also be interesting to see if anyone else can play 12 effectively with manu at 13 if we decided to focus a physical attack on the 13 channel.

Eddie is giving the press conference in the nude?

Well he does like to deflect attention from his squad.

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Post by Brad71090 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 1:46 pm

I wonder if they will announce the match day 23 on Tuesday like they normally do during 6N. Will be very interesting to see who is retained.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 2:00 pm

Brad71090 wrote:I wonder if they will announce the match day 23 on Tuesday like they normally do during 6N. Will be very interesting to see who is retained.

No real reason for Eddie to name the match squad early as that is a requirement of teh EPS agreement but only applies in season.

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 3:58 pm

4 games is too many, how many injuries will we pick up?
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Post by bluestonevedder on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 4:31 pm

TightHEAD wrote:4 games is too many, how many injuries will we pick up?

Exactly. This is my main concern. I'm sure the Welsh fans will be worried too, because there's a few key positions where they haven't got much strength in depth.

Pretty irresponsible really.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 4:47 pm

Preparing for a tournament is always walking a tightrope balancing the risk of injuries with the risk of being undercooked. Arguably this is a tougher balancing act for NH countries wher eplayers will have had a huge break from competitive rugby and will be short on game fitness/sharpness.

Generally so far England have not had injuries in warm ups - but then we have not had Eddie in charge before with the players constantly being pushed to breaking point.

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Post by Yoda on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 5:50 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Yoda wrote:Baring in mind he's naming his final squad a day after the first Wales game it does seem likely some fringe players will be seen first up. Dombrandt at 8? To see if he can play there against tough oppo. It would also be interesting to see if anyone else can play 12 effectively with manu at 13 if we decided to focus a physical attack on the 13 channel.

Eddie is giving the press conference in the nude?

Very Happy English language has never been a strength!

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 7:50 pm

Good point LT. Being thrust straight into test level without the gradual ease into it with a club comp adds to the risk as over enthusiasm to make the squad takes priority. It’s essential though. Every player needs to confirm their form and fitness, and key, as well as likely sub combinations need to be honed in. It’s a major juggling act and between now and the tournament proper there will be at least one more Faletau level and type withdrawal. Possibly two or three. In fact if there’s not I’d probably question whether the required level of intensity is being met. We still have two more and so far have Retallick down after two matches, luck playing a big part there.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 1:11 pm

*England name a 33 man squad ahead of the Wales game.
*No new names added and Brown, Dombrandt, Spencer and Te'o have been cut. Not terminal for their World Cup hopes, but probably not ideal. Brown, Spencer and Te'o at least you could say are more known than their back-ups (Watson at 15, Heinz and Francis), so could see those flipped. Dombrandt came in as an injury replacement for Shields - who also continues his rehabilitation with his club.
*Nowell will stay with the squad but won't be considered for the Wales game.

Squad in full:
Forwards (19)
Mako Vunipola, Marler, Genge
George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
Sinckler, Cole, Williams
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels
Wilson, Curry, Underhill, Ludlum
Billy Vunipola

Backs (14):
Youngs, Heinz
Farrell, Ford
Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph, Marchant, Francis
May, Daly, Watson, Cokanasiga, McConnochie

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-squad-announced-ahead-of-wales-test

I know it's not the final squad, but it looks very unbalanced. Not much cover at 6, 8 or 10/12 and a bit of a gamble at 15. I assume Eddie won't just be cutting 2 of these guys to make his final squad, but who makes it is still a bit up in the air.


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Post by Rinsure on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 1:16 pm

So... is Mako fit? I guess he must be, if he's included without a caveat like Nowell is.

Would suggest cover at 6 is from Itoje and / or Lawes, given Ewels presence in the squad. Still concerned about 8. Can't expect BV to play 80 every game, assuming he remains injury free.

McConnochie ahead of Brown, I presume is the selection, meaning 15 is Watson / Daly.

Not the final squad indeed... but...

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 1:23 pm

Rinsure wrote:So... is Mako fit? I guess he must be, if he's included without a caveat like Nowell is.

Would suggest cover at 6 is from Itoje and / or Lawes, given Ewels presence in the squad. Still concerned about 8. Can't expect BV to play 80 every game, assuming he remains injury free.

McConnochie ahead of Brown, I presume is the selection, meaning 15 is Watson / Daly.

Not the final squad indeed... but...

He'll name his 31 on Monday. It remains to be seen how he juggles his resources over the next 3 games, whether he only uses squad players or he uses others outside of the 31 who may be on a public or even private reserve list.

Personally this is a disappointing announcement for me, as I'd have Dombrandt, Spencer, Te'o and Brown over Ludlam, Heinz, Francis and McConnochie, so every decision went against the one I'd make. But yeah, not the final squad so I'll hold off on criticising too strongly until I see the end of the master plan.

I'd guess Mako is in contention to play, but I'm sure he'll be managed carefully.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 1:33 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Personally this is a disappointing announcement for me, as I'd have Dombrandt, Spencer, Te'o and Brown over Ludlam, Heinz, Francis and McConnochie, so every decision went against the one I'd make. But yeah, not the final squad so I'll hold off on criticising too strongly until I see the end of the master plan.

Snap.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 2:07 pm

Really do not like Heinz ahead of Spencer. The Sarrie has shown he can perform at the highest levels and has that link with Farrell. In fact I would have been happy to see him supplant Youngs as the starter because of this.

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Post by Brad71090 on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 2:17 pm

RIP Mike Brown. One of the best fullbacks for England.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 06 Aug 2019, 2:22 pm

Brad71090 wrote:RIP Mike Brown. One of the best fullbacks for England.

Reports of his demise may yet prove to be premature. Until the final squad comes out, there is still a chance...

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