England Selection for the Warm-Ups

With the 1st warm-up now less than 2 weeks away who would you select for the following matches. Whats the objective? Do we try a few new combinations to let the fringe players have a chance? Or do we select 1st choice and get some continuity.

I've included below the fixtures and Englands WC training squad that teams must be selected from.

August 6, 2011	England v Wales	Twickenham Stadium
August 13, 2011	Wales v England	Millenium Stadium
August 27, 2011	Ireland v England	Aviva Stadium

Player Club

Mouritz Botha	Saracens
George Chuter	Leicester Tigers
Dan Cole	Leicester Tigers
Alex Corbisiero	London Irish
Tom Croft	Leicester Tigers
Louis Deacon	Leicester Tigers
Paul Doran-Jones	Gloucester Rugby
Nick Easter	Harlequins
Hendre Fourie	Sale Sharks
Dylan Hartley	Northampton Saints
James Haskell	Unattached
Courtney Lawes	Northampton Saints
Lee Mears	Bath Rugby
Lewis Moody	Bath Rugby
Tom Palmer	Stade Francais
Tim Payne	London Wasps
Chris Robshaw	Harlequins
Simon Shaw	London Wasps
Andrew Sheridan	Sale Sharks
Matt Stevens	Saracens
Steve Thompson	London Wasps
Thomas Waldrom	Leicester Tigers
David Wilson	Bath Rugby
Tom Wood	Northampton Saints
Joe Worsley	London Wasps

Delon Armitage	London Irish
Chris Ashton	Northampton Saints
Matt Banahan	Bath Rugby
Danny Care	Harlequins
Mark Cueto	Sale Sharks
Toby Flood	Leicester Tigers
Riki Flutey	London Wasps
Ben Foden	Northampton Saints
Shontayne Hape	Bath Rugby
Charlie Hodgson	Saracens
Ugo Monye	Harlequins
Charlie Sharples	Gloucester Rugby
Joe Simpson	London Wasps
James Simpson-Daniel	Gloucester Rugby
David Strettle	Saracens
Mike Tindall	Gloucester Rugby
Manusamoa Tuilagi	Leicester Tigers
Richard Wigglesworth	Saracens
Jonny Wilkinson	RC Toulon
Ben Youngs	Leicester Tigers

My thoughts are to try out some combinations for the home game to Wales, refine a little for the Cardiff away game (keep those new combinations that work - reinforce with a few big guns if needed. The put out first choice test side for Dublin, Ireland being a bit of a bogey side for England over the recent years. For the sake of team confidence we need that away result to put to bed a few issues.


Team for the 1st warm-up, I would like to see -

Stevens
Mears
Cole
Botha
Lawes
Fourie
Moody
Waldrom
Care
Flood
Monye
Flutey
Tuilagi
JSD
Armitage


Res -

Hartley
Paul Doran-Jones
Palmer
Robshaw
Simpson
Sharples
Banahan
(almost looks like a strong Saxons side)

I would tweak that for the away leg - strengthen the Pack if needed to compete against A.Jones and co. Maybe Tinds comes in and Foden gets a run ect.
I would still expect the 15 for the Ireland game to look something like this -

Sherry
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer
Croft
Moody
Easter
Care
Flood
Ashton
Haps
Tinds
Cueto
Foden

And include any good performers from the previous matches.
Whats your thoughts - would you play your strongest in all warm-ups?

prop,

Sorry to jump on your 'England' post but I think that coaches should tinker a bit for the first/second game.

BUT then I believe that eash coach should pick what he thinks is going to be their team for the opening fixture in NZ.

That way they at least get 80 minutes run out together.

No probs bedford,

So potentially we will see 2 experimental sides having at it at HQ on the 6th - could be one of those free flowing, open with lots of trys! We can hope.



You are right too. I expect that the test side will appear possibly for the 2 away (for England) fixtures.

I think Bedford is right in that the final friendly should be the best team available. England probabley won't know what that is until after the first two friendlies. The Care vs Youngs battle will be an important one as will the Wilko vs Flood, Stevens vs Sheridan, Deacon vs Botha vs Lawes and Tindall vs Manu. Need to pass round the game time in the first two friendlies in order that the management know what each player will bring on the pitch. Give everyone an opportunity to show what they can do.

Like the team for the first friendly but I would drop Banahan from the bench and replace him with Hodgson and for the second would probabley go with;

Sheridan
Thompson
Wilson
Deacon
Palmer
Croft
Robshaw
Easter
Youngs
Wilkinson
Banahan
Hape
Tindall
Ashton
Foden

Reps.
Corbisiero (him and PDJ given 30 mins each as replacements)
Chuter
Lawes
Waldrom
Simpson
Hodgson
Sharples

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Bedford is right in that the final friendly should be the best team available. England probabley won't know what that is until after the first two friendlies. The Care vs Youngs battle will be an important one as will the Wilko vs Flood, Stevens vs Sheridan, Deacon vs Botha vs Lawes and Tindall vs Manu. Need to pass round the game time in the first two friendlies in order that the management know what each player will bring on the pitch. Give everyone an opportunity to show what they can do.

Like the team for the first friendly but I would drop Banahan from the bench and replace him with Hodgson and for the second would probabley go with;

Sheridan
Thompson
Wilson
Deacon
Palmer
Croft
Robshaw
Easter
Youngs
Wilkinson
Banahan
Hape
Tindall
Ashton
Foden

Reps.
Corbisiero (him and PDJ given 30 mins each as replacements)
Chuter
Lawes
Waldrom
Simpson
Hodgson
Sharples

Sam, thats still quite a stong side, which would make sense for the home game. The only issue I would have with that is Wilson, Hodgson and Chuter involved in the 22! We know what they offer and I would much rather some of the younger guys to get experience, or eg. give Mears a run out - its been a long time since he's been involved with England.

There isnt any cover for 15?

And I really like that back row of Croft-Robshaw-Easter, could be mustard.

You may know what they offer but at the same time it's important to give everyone a run out to show what they can do and get game time under their belts. Wilson, Hodgson and Chuter don't have any young gun competition in the squad, the hookers are (Hartley, Thompson, Mears, Chuter), fly halfs (Hodgson, Wilko, Flood) and tight heads (Wilson, Cole, PDJ). Corbisiero is a loose head before you bring it up, he isn't ready for international rugby at tight head.

There isnt any cover for 15?

Your initial team didn't have a back up points kicker. Flutey isn't given the job when he plays ten at Wasps MVG used to take on the responsibility. Hodgson has also played ten for Sale before (though it wasn't very successful) he or one of the scrummies could cover in a real emergency. Could always replace Sharples on the bench with Cueto as he isn't in either squad. That would be a better idea.

Croft/Robshaw/Easter could be tidy but are lacking a little bit of dog at the breakdown.

Fourteen. Fourteen.

That's insane.

I think in the first game MJ should take a look at Waldrom and Tuilagi, but otherwise I suspect the team won't vary a huge deal over the three games. England have a pretty settled squad, one of its strengths, and I can't see the likes of Payne, Botha, Sharples and Wigglesworth making the cut, so I wouldn't use them in the warm-ups unless they've done something amazing in the training sessions.

FES, SCW always said the biggest difference between 1999 and 2003 was that in 2003 he had confidence in the whole squad and not just the starting 15. England may be pretty settled but they've got to access the back ups and the form players just to make sure they are fully prepared. No point taking a player who hasn't played in a game since May to the RWC in September. At least one run out before then should be essential.

propdavid_london wrote:No probs bedford,

So potentially we will see 2 experimental sides having at it at HQ on the 6th - could be one of those free flowing, open with lots of trys! We can hope.



You are right too. I expect that the test side will appear possibly for the 2 away (for England) fixtures.

Prop,

Yeah we could do though we could see pretty much what people want as Wales' first choice due to players like Jenkins and Jones coming back from injury and needing game time.

Also most want either Faletau or Delve at No8 with Jones at 2nd row, so even though the forwards may have a bit of an experimental look to it most would be happy with thats as first choice.

Bigger decisions for Wales (unusually so) will be beihind the scrum with no one really sure what way he will go at Half back or Centre.

formerly known as Sam wrote:FES, SCW always said the biggest difference between 1999 and 2003 was that in 2003 he had confidence in the whole squad and not just the starting 15. England may be pretty settled but they've got to access the back ups and the form players just to make sure they are fully prepared. No point taking a player who hasn't played in a game since May to the RWC in September. At least one run out before then should be essential.

I don't disagree with that. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't waste time on players like Payne, Botha, Wigglesworth and Sharples who (in my view) clearly aren't going to be part of the squad that goes.

Yes, all 30 players pencilled in for the WC squad should get game time (and the last warm-up should be the XV that is expected to start against Argentina), and there may even be a spot or two up for grabs, but I wouldn't stray far from combinations that will actually feature at the WC (including the Georgia and Romania games). I'm pretty sure MJ knows who they are by now, he doesn't strike me as a coach who won't have settled on his squad by now, regardless of what he may say in public.

Personally I'd play the 1st XV (or thereabouts) in two of the games, and give the second string one of the games, plus impact cameos from the bench for those who will likely have that role.

See I think there may be room in the squad for Sharples, he has an alarmingly good strike rate (18 tries in 29 games last season). England may decide he would be the perfect back up for Ashton. Young but very speedy and pretty decent in defence as well. May be given a go as England seem pretty undecided on the flanks after Cueto and Ashton.

There are basically three ways to go about it in my book.

1. Super experimental, try the combinations out with lots of subs and get as many people on the pitch over the three games as possible.

2. Win. Pick your best side for every game and get some momentum going.

3. Some kind of mix of 1 and 2.

We can be fairly certain that 3 is going to be the option MJ chooses (as most people have suggested), probably with more of a focus on 2 in my view. So I expect to see perhaps a max of 5 "non-first choicers" starting with perhaps another couple on the bench and the rest "first choice" players. At least for the first 2 games. If he doesn't play the "best" 15 against Ireland then I will be extremely surprised.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there were some players that didn't get a run out at all over the three games. There will be some that he will write off during the training.

I'd put very good money on Sharples not going.

It's not that I don't rate him, it's just that there are more experienced alternatives in the squad that MJ has used before (and that tends to win with him) - such as Strettle and Moyne. I think he'll take Cueto, Ashton, Foden and Armitage, plus Banahan covers wing. At a push, he'll take one of Strettle or Moyne. I don't think JS-D or Sharples will make it.

I think his "wildcard" pick will be Tuilagi, and only because England have such limited options in the squad at centre.

formerly known as Sam wrote:You may know what they offer but at the same time it's important to give everyone a run out to show what they can do and get game time under their belts. Wilson, Hodgson and Chuter don't have any young gun competition in the squad, the hookers are (Hartley, Thompson, Mears, Chuter), fly halfs (Hodgson, Wilko, Flood) and tight heads (Wilson, Cole, PDJ). Corbisiero is a loose head before you bring it up, he isn't ready for international rugby at tight head.

There isnt any cover for 15?

Your initial team didn't have a back up points kicker. Flutey isn't given the job when he plays ten at Wasps MVG used to take on the responsibility. Hodgson has also played ten for Sale before (though it wasn't very successful) he or one of the scrummies could cover in a real emergency. Could always replace Sharples on the bench with Cueto as he isn't in either squad. That would be a better idea.

Croft/Robshaw/Easter could be tidy but are lacking a little bit of dog at the breakdown.

Sorry Sam - yup - no backup kickers or 15 cover!



Maybe its not such an issue with young guns - but there is cover-competition for places.



Hooker - Hartley, Thompson, Mears, Chuter - To me, Mears offers more than 'leaping salmon' Chuter

Loosehead - Sherry, Payne, utility Corbis, Stevens

Tighthead - Wilson, Cole, PDJ, utility Corbis, Stevens

10 - Flood, Wilko, Hodgeson, Flutey (Flutey/Armitage can kick)



you could afford to drop both Payne and Wilson from the squad and still have cover at the WC.

formerly known as Sam wrote:See I think there may be room in the squad for Sharples, he has an alarmingly good strike rate (18 tries in 29 games last season). England may decide he would be the perfect back up for Ashton. Young but very speedy and pretty decent in defence as well. May be given a go as England seem pretty undecided on the flanks after Cueto and Ashton.

I would expect Sharples to get a run in 1 of the warm-ups too - could be a good bet as a bolter option for the WC squad.

That would be at the expense of Monye, Strettle, Tait though.

Tait isn't in the squad as he's recovering from shoulder issues and is being taught how to tackle in the Tigers pre season training camp.

you could afford to drop both Payne and Wilson from the squad and still have cover at the WC..

You could but I'd give Wilson a run out because not only is he a decent scrummager he is also mobile and has been the back up to Cole when he's not been injured. Would definitley keep him in the squad at the expense of Corbisiero as well.

Mears used to offer a lot more but recently hasn't shown a lot of form. Chutes isn't ever going to be the number 1 pick but he is great for morale and is reliable both at the lineout and in the scrum and as a third choice pick with two dynamic picks ahead of him that is generally what you look for. Mears can creak a bit at the line out and has never excelled in the scrum and there are better ball carrying hookers now. Much of a muchness though as neither will start and will only make the bench if there's an injury.

I would try this team for the first match.

1.Stevens
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha
5.Lawes
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Easter
9.Care
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Tindall
13.Tuliagi
14.JSD
15.Foden

16.Corbisiero
17.Thompson
18.Palmer
19.Croft
20.Simpson
21.Wilkinson
22.Sharples

Obviously this is with the pathetic squad I have to work with.

Personally now is not the time to be experiementing with new players.

MJ knows his 1st 15 pretty much and the main job is to decide who the back up players are.

So if there is any personnel changes for the games they will be minor ones with the likes of Botha (shudder at the thought) being tested, or Armitage being tested for FB.

I still think the key position where he might try something centre...but even them i am pretty sure he will stick with his tried and tested for this time.

After the WC, then yes experiement away...but i dont think even then there will be wild changes. He has a nice settled young squad now so the only changes will be retirees or problem areas - namely Centre.

Looking at those teams i can't help but think that a kicking utility like Alex Goode or Freddie Burns would have been very handy in the squad as a versatile bench option at least.

What ever happened to Tom Homer?

Yappy, Ben Youngs can kick. Did so against the Saffas in 2009. Took it up after Dupuy joined the club. He was also a fly half until Dusty Hare convinced him to change to scrum half.

Yappysnap we all know the England squad is hopeless but there is nothing we can do about it.

The centres are abysmal. No decent FB back up.Too many foreign journeyman like Fourie,Waldrom,Flutey and Hape.

Will MJ ever get it right?

Will MJ ever get it right?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure in his head he has (i'd hope he thought he had anyhows), will he ever select what we all want? No

But some of the selections are frankly Poopie.

Sam i remember watching him against SA, i think that was the first time i saw him play, his kicking was almost perfect then but has he actually kicked in a game since then? I don't think he has, it would be handy maybe if in one of the games he did a little of the kicking.

Sheridan
Thompson
Cole
Shaw
Palmer
Croft
Moody
Easter
Simpson
Flood
Monye
Bananaman
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Hartley, Stevens (for Sheridan),
Lawes (for Shaw) after 50 mins.
Maybe Wood for Moody if he's ran himself into the ground.

Power, then speed/ mobility.

I'd have Lawes start right from the off, to be honest i'm surprised Shaw is still playing he didn't look good for Wasps by the end of the season.

I'd have Deacon on the bench, he adds power and if the set piece is struggling he can stabalise it. Along with Thompson coming on they both add a lot of power to the scrum and ruck area.

Sam i remember watching him against SA, i think that was the first time i saw him play, his kicking was almost perfect then but has he actually kicked in a game since then?

Nope. Then again pretty much every game he played in after that he has played alongside Flood. England will have Flood, Wilko and Hodgson available that's three front line goal kickers. Two will be in a match day 22 that should pretty much cover it.

Too many foreign journeyman like Fourie,Waldrom,Flutey and Hape.

And Botha? Would you count Stevens as a foreign journey man as well?

Foreign has nothing to do with it. There's simply not enough time for Johnno to complete his tactical planning before the RWC. We've seen pretty big changes over the time he's been in charge unfortunatley Johnno never got as far as fully fixing the backrow/second row (needs fine tuning) or repairing the probelms in the centres (Hape and Tindall are stop gaps).

To be honest Yappy I prefer the idea of bigger lumps starting off when things are tight and then bringing on the lighter more athletic guys when things open up in the second half. I believe Shaw has one last tournament in him, and he'll give his all (remember the lions)

Think what I've suggested would act as an "impact bench" don't you think?

For warm-up games 1 and 3, I'd pick the following XV:

1.Sheridan 2.Thompson 3.Cole 4.Lawes 5.Palmer 6.Croft 7.Moody 8.Easter 9.Youngs 10.Flood 11.Ashton 12.Flutey 13.Tindall 14.Banahan 15.Foden

16.Stevens 17.Hartley 18.Shaw 19.Haskell 20.Care 21.Wilkinson 22.Cueto

I'd be willing to tinker the bench depending on how warm-up game 2 goes.


For warm-up game 2, I'd look to the following:

1.Stevens 2.Hartley 3.Doran-Jones 4.Shaw 5.Deacon 6.Wood 7.Haskell 8.Waldrom 9.Care 10.Wilkinson 11.Strettle 12.Hape 13.Tuilagi 14.Cueto 15.Armitage

16.Corbisiero 17.Chuter 18.Lawes 19.Robshaw 20.Simpson 21.Hodgson 22.Banahan


I don't see these as trial games, they are warm-up games. England start hard against Argentina, and the 1st XV will need to be well fixed starting that game. The final 30 I think will come from the players used above.

Think what I've suggested would act as an "impact bench" don't you think?.

I'd rather have Deacon start and help offer the backs a stable platform through his grunt work and skills at the set piece and then as legs begin to tire bring on Lawes for his brand of big hits and powerful carries just to knock the confidence of the opposition.

I just don't rate Deacon that highly, would've preferred Atwood.

Why is Waldrom within a thousand miles of anybody's team? Are we to lose any credibility we have left?

Because the squad is what it is. The purpose now is to get THAT squad ready for the WC, get it narrowed to 30 and get the players ready.

There have been 1 bzillion debates as to who should and should not be in the squad. That is now over. The squad is fixed, and the job is now to (a) pick 30 players from it, and (b) get those 30 is as good a shape as possible for what is potentially a knock-out game against Argentina first up.

Sam last time I checked Matt Stevens has numerous England caps.

Botha and Stevens are AP champions.

Can't say that for the 2nd rate players I mentioned.

Waldrom - wasn't deemed good enough to start for Leicester in any of the important matches. Was ineffective in the AP final. Only one season in the AP. Handed an England squad place on a plate by an ex Tiger. What a surprise!

Fourie - top 10 for missed tackles in the AP. Part of the worst team in the AP. Not deemed good enough by the top sides in the AP or he would have been signed up. Got into the England squad because MJ's mate Neil Back made it happen.

Flutey - best choice in 2009. 2 years later has been plying his trade for Brive and Wasps, two clubs badly struggling whilst also being injured.

Hape - a Kiwi journeyman who got destroyed by Ireland and got skinned by the Welsh centres in the first game. In the AP he looked mediocre. Was handed an England cap despite doing nothing of note.



What are these matches before the world cup for if not for trying out new players?

Suppose you don't have a problem with Manu do you?

Do England want to win the world cup or are they there to just make up the numbers?

Stick with mediocrity and you will stay mediocre.

carpe diem England has credibility?

funnyexiledscot it's virtually impossible to pick a good side as the squad is so unbelievably rubbish.

There is no forward thinking from MJ. He seems surprised when he finds out his best players are the young ones in form like Ashton,Foden,Corbisiero,Lawes,Cole,Youngs etc.

Pick more in form players you numpty!

I may have been optimistic in that regard Beshocked.

Beshocked am i to assume you don't agree with all of MJ's selections then?


Deacon for me is a solid player who can have very good games, like for Eng against Wales but also almost annonimous games like Eng against France.

To be honest I'd have Lawes and Palmer starting two of three games as they'd be my starting locks for the WC, they're also the locks from some of our best games. Then it's really just a bench and squad player which i think Deacon will be. Attwood is unlucky.

There was me thinking that Flutey was an AP and HEC Champion.

Suppose you don't have a problem with Manu do you?

I don't have a problem with any of them being selected as long as the team works. Can't see it working with the majority of them in it mind. Would protest that refering to them as journeymen and mediocare is a tad harsh. Flutey when not injured is class, ok Hape is blatantly average and merely filling a whole (getting skinned once against Davies vs Wales hides the fact the English ran rough shod over the Welsh 10/12 channel), Fourie was a star in the worst AP team and was selected on the back of Johnno wanting more ball carrying options. Ditto Waldrom who is used tactically by Tigers, his carrying ability generally is more effective in the later part of games.

If like in the AP final there is no decent ball going because Tigers haven't got an enforcer to remove Sarries hands from the ruck or a line out caller to secure ball for him to run onto then it's not really much to do with him. Interesting that Tigers main impetus came later in the game when Waldrom was on the field though.

I just don't rate Deacon that highly, would've preferred Atwood

Deacon lacks carrying ability but is generally relied upon to make the Tigers set piece function (oh how we missed him!). Adds grunt to the breakdown without multiple citations (unlike Mr Attwood). A much more efficient if unspectacular option.

Why is Waldrom within a thousand miles of anybody's team? Are we to lose any credibility we have left?

Yet he qualifys through parentage (well grandparentage) and that is a more tenable link than Manu who was nearly deported last year and who has 5 (?) brothers who have played international rugby for Samoa. Yet somehow it feels easier to accept Manu as English.

Botha and Stevens are AP champions.

One medal isn't basis for an entire arguement (could be a contributing factor). For instance Matt Smith was a GP Champion last year (scoring in the final), still didn't make him good enough for the international arena.

"What are these matches before the world cup for if not for trying out new players?"


These games are NOT for trying out new players. They are for preparing the 30 to start the World Cup running. These are not trial games. If MJ doesn't know his 1st XV yet, England are in real trouble. Of course he does, I'd be stunned if there were any more than 4 places up for grabs in the final 30. Some players in the current squad will almost certainly be ruled out already. He can do that on the training ground.

I agree, there are plenty changes I'd make to the squad, but that debate is past. It's now about who you'd pick as the 30, and how you would prepare them.

Game 1 - I think should be most of the maybe's as they have home advantage and the guys who need some game time.

Game 2 - Full strenght team as Cardiff is a hard place to win and would give a good test, maybe mix the bench up with guys who performed well in the first game and give them plenty of game time.

Game 3 See how you stand after the first two games, with injuries, form etc.. But I'd still go with a full strength team, you can't protect everyone from injury maybe only one or two.

There is no forward thinking from MJ. He seems surprised when he finds out his best players are the young ones in form like Ashton,Foden,Corbisiero,Lawes,Cole,Youngs etc.

Weren't all of the above given their test debuts and stuck with by MJ. Despite some rather dodget form by Foden and Corbisiero. I seem to remember Foden struggling a great deal in his first couple of outings. Corbisiero did well until the bigger games and then largely disappeared. Johnno has done quite well but the England squad currently resembles an unfinished product. A credible inside centre would largely do the trick though.

"A credible inside centre would largely do the trick though."

Houston we have a problem

yappysnap no I don't agree.

Manu is actually easier to accept because he is the in form outside centre in the AP. He is only 19 and has been here since 13 - correct?

Sam how do you know Flutey is back to his best? Was Cipriani the same after his injury? Armitage the same after his injury? By your logic we should be picking Tom rees as he was class before injury.

Sorry I should have said AP champion this year. Would you pick a player for winning a trophy 3 years ago?

Fourie is a journeyman. Not difficult to stand out in the worst side is it? If he is so good why did none of the top sides want him? It's because they have better players.He wouldn't get into any of the top 6 team's squads, not even as a waterboy.

You keep using excuses for the Tigers boys in the final. Youngs wasn't poor it was his forwards. Waldrom wasn't poor it was his forwards....etc. Where does the blame lie in your eyes? Main impetus? I thought Tigers were impotent in attack - that's why you lost. Couldn't break through in 10 minutes of extra time.

Waldrom failed in his job which was to break through supposedly tired legs.

You supposedly blame it on the lineout etc. Who was part of the Saracens line out? Botha. Botha and Borthwick were part of the best lineout in the AP.

Matt Smith vs Botha and Stevens - hmmmm

At least some people are happy with MJ. Tigers fans will of course defend their man though.


I know which is why MJ should keep picking in form players!!

Like it or not, I think Johnson is going to want to give Banahan a go at inside centre at some point during the warm ups. I think this needs to be factored into potential team selection.

With that in mind, I wouldn’t mind trying a few other combinations out:


1. Andrew Sheridan
2. Steve Thompson
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Tom Palmer
6. Tom Croft Combo 1
7. Tom Wood
8. Nick Easter

09. Joe Simpson Combo 2
10. Toby Flood

11. Charlie Sharples
12. Matt Banahan Combo 3
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden


The lack of Sarries players seems a bit mental (particularly Goode and Brad Barritt) but since they weren’t chosen what can you do?

Not much really Cumbrian except constantly criticise MJ.

If not Brad Barritt and Alex Goode at least Anthony Allen and Mike Brown should have got the nod.

Anyway rant over. There is nothing we can do. England will have to limp along.

I think Manu and Sharples will do well if given shots. Shame other form players aren't given the same benefit of the doubt.

Matt Smith vs Botha

Good reliable club players, both physical and both have decent skill sets. Could their clubs replace them, certainly, are they valuable squad memebers, certainly. Pretty similar.

Where does the blame lie in your eyes? Main impetus? I thought Tigers were impotent in attack

You have to look to why they were impotent in attack and that boils down to the complete lack of grunt from the second row. Your second row win the line out, the second row bring grunt to the breakdown and bring their own discipline with it. Tigers lacked in that area massively, Skivington works hard but is neither a great option at the lineout nor is he an enforcer. Mafi is a great blindside who tackles his heart out but just isn't AP standard second row (he is only 22 though). You want to look at successful teams then look at the last two RWC winners. South Africa, line out savant in Matfield coupled with hard as nails enforcer. 2003 RWC England with line out savant Kay coupled with hard as nails enforcer Johnson. Tigers had neither a line out operator nor an enforcer and hence struggled much as they had done for most of the season. I said to you on the old version of 606 no Deacon and Tigers are in trouble and they were.

Tigers had no excuses they were beaten by a better team. Sarries game plan to basically force a physical arm wrestle and look for weaknesses is classic Tigers (circa 2000 to 2004). Difference being Sarries knew that they had a more physical pack and a better defence. Tigers were far more dynamic but never in a position for it to be worth a damn.

Sam you honestly think being impotent in attack is down to the 2nd row? I think it was the lack of Manu who has that cutting edge you desperately lacked.

I thought Croft was your lineout man. Tigers don't rely on one player that much. If you did you would get beaten a lot more!

I wouldn't have called the Tigers pack dynamic at all!

I wouldn't call Matt Smith and Botha similar. Completely different players and positions.

Beshocked - I notice you opted for Mike Tindall at 12.

Did you pick him there on form shown this season or pedigree in that position, or simply to protest at Brad Barritt not being picked?

Tindall is a dreadful option at 12 - Flutey, Banahan and Hape may not be the best players on the planet, but they are better 12s than Tindall.

Cumbrian wrote:With that in mind, I wouldn’t mind trying a few other combinations out:


1. Andrew Sheridan
2. Steve Thompson
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Tom Palmer
6. Tom Croft Combo 1
7. Tom Wood
8. Nick Easter

09. Joe Simpson Combo 2
10. Toby Flood

11. Charlie Sharples
12. Matt Banahan Combo 3
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden


The lack of Sarries players seems a bit mental (particularly Goode and Brad Barritt) but since they weren’t chosen what can you do?

Agree with all of this except i'd start with Youngs playing just to see how the Youngs/Flood partnership is going. I wouldn't want their first game to be away at Cardiff. I would then have Simpson on the bench for the first game and Care on the Bench for the second. Against Ireland i'd have the best of the three of them starting, even if that means dropping Youngs to the bench.

I can't see wood and croft working well in the backrow, they're too similar for me, i'd have Haskell/robshaw or Fourie at 7 but I think MJ will have Moody. More and more i'd be tempted to have Haskell at 8 for a bit of one games and then Croft and Moody.

The reason for playing Haskell at 8? Well i really think he could be great there, he seems to have a much stronger work ethic now and in a match day 22 we wont have a spare 8 on the bench while Haskell could be playing or benching, so he needs a bit of recent time there.

1. Andrew Sheridan
2. Steve Thompson
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Tom Palmer
6. Tom Croft Combo 1
7. Lewis Moody
8. Nick Easter

09. Ben Youngs Combo 2
10. Toby Flood

11. Charlie Sharples
12. Matt Banahan Combo 3
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

Am I in groundhog day?

How many times are Beshocked and Sam going to have the same boring argument about the AP final?

I swear there isn't an England thread running without you two bickering on it.