England World Cup Warm Ups

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Don't expect the snazzy pics produced on better match threads!

England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Fri 09 Aug 2019, 12:17 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 2:44 pm

I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 2:45 pm

What lineup do people want for Italy?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 3:15 pm

Watson at full back is my main want. Youngs to start in the hope he remembers how he can play. I'm still slightly amazed how badly he did with such a perfect platform.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 3:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson at full back is my main want. Youngs to start in the hope he remembers how he can play. I'm still slightly amazed how badly he did with such a perfect platform.

I agree. I know Jones has picked his squad but I assume he has not sent it to World Rugby. If Youngs has another mare he needs to swallow his pride and send him back to his club and send for Spencer.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 3:34 pm

It is a shame that Brown is not in the squad would of liked to see him against Italy, and Daily on the bench.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 4:47 pm

I know it's the wrong forum, but has anyone seen the Ashes test score. Stokes has done it again, smashed the Aussies into oblivion. Left with only a true 11 he went on the rampage and hit 74 off 45 balls to win the test. Aussies still in shock.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 4:52 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I know it's the wrong forum, but has anyone seen the Ashes test score. Stokes has done it again, smashed the Aussies into oblivion. Left with only a true 11 he went on the rampage and hit 74 off 45 balls to win the test. Aussies still in shock.

I am not a cricket fan but well done England. clap clap clap clap clap clap

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Post by hugehandoff on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 6:26 pm

For Italy we obviously need game time for those who have not played and for those who are still a tad rusty. Plus we need to protect some others. Maybe some new combos need more time to get used to each other too? Underhill and Curry. Ford, Farrell and Manu, but then Slade if fit as well? Difficult choices. In Eddie we trust.


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Post by Taylorman on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 6:52 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I know it's the wrong forum, but has anyone seen the Ashes test score. Stokes has done it again, smashed the Aussies into oblivion. Left with only a true 11 he went on the rampage and hit 74 off 45 balls to win the test. Aussies still in shock.

I am not a cricket fan but well done England. clap clap clap clap clap clap

blimmin kiwis are everywhere huh? Hug

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 7:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:What lineup do people want for Italy?

Marlee, George, Sinckler

They all need more game time. Genge, LCD, Cole have all had some real game time. Want minutes shared round.

Launchbury, Kruis

Give Itoje a little more game time off the bench.

Lawes, Underhill, Wilson

Give Vunipola a week off and keep those three topped up with game time. Ludlam from the bench.

Youngs, Farrell

Youngs had a mixed bag, playing at a higher tempo after missing the season run in through injury was tough. Needs more minutes to find his form. Farrell to start as Ford needs a rest, he's already played three full games.

Slade, Joseph

If Slade isn't fit then bring in Francis. Give Manu some more game time off the bench but let's not chance an injury if we don't need to, he looks in red hot form. If Joseph isn't fit let's give Marchant a go.

May, Nowell, Watson

Daly could do without starting again and the other three could all do with game time. If Nowell isn't fit then give McChoncie the chance to make his long awaited debut.

This shouldn't be too challenging a game. We just need to rotate the players as best we can to make sure everyone's had some minutes.

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:00 pm

No way would Jones send Youngs back to Leicester if he has a poor game against Italy, especially for the unproven Spencer. The squad is finalised within 48 hours of the game and it would give Spencer very little time with the squad.

Things I want to see: Wilson at 8, Watson at 15, Ford covering 9, Marler covering tighthead, Slade, Nowell and McConnochie, more Ludlam, more Singleton (covering back row?).

The other question is Mako. Will he be fit? Will he be replaced? If he's replaced I imagine William's will be called up and Cole will be loosehead cover? Rather than Marler covering tight head.

So:

Marler, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Lawes, Ludlam, Underhill, Wilson
Youngs, Farrell, Nowell, Tuilagi, Slade, McConnochie, Watson
Singleton, Cole, Mako/Williams, Itoje, Curry, Ford, Heinz, May

Singleton to come on for Underhill (Ludlam to 7) and Mako* to come on for Sinckler (Marler to 3) and Ford for Youngs around the 50 minute mark. The we have the subs to undo those moves if they prove to he disasters.

*If Mako is injured and Williams benches I'd bring Cole on for Marler at this stage. Or maybe Cole for Sinckler and try both props on the wrong side.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:19 pm

I think people are being a little harsh on Youngs. He probably was our worst performer and some of his passing was sloppy and second half kicks too long. Yet he played a key part in all 3 first half tries and had two further trie assists in the second. 

Having not started a game since March he was understandably rusty but that is never taken into account. Having not played international rugby for a yeah it was no surprise that Marler was off the pace a little. He was blowing after 20 and really struggling to get around the park for much of the game. The run out will have done him well and his scrummaging was impressive.

Along with Daly, Youngs is the go to guy for fans to gripe about. He 8s not going anywhere however.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:44 pm

I’m not sure your impression of Marler is accurate. According to ESPN, he didn’t carry much (though he matched Healy), but his tackle stats were 9/1 (4th equal for England after Underhill, Itoje and Kruis). That’s a pretty good level of involvement for a prop. If he has room to improve, so much the better.

But I agree with you that Daly and Youngs need to improve or England will be quite exposed.
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Post by kingelderfield on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 10:18 pm

Wrap Tuilagi in cotton wool. There's no need to risk his uniquely outrageous talent against Italy.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 11:31 pm

Who is replacement full back? With Brown not being in the squad is it Watson, Noel?
Whoever it is they need to start against Italy.Would like to see Launchbery Lawes start in the second row, with Cruise on the bench and Itoje rested.

Would also like Billy V rested and some one like Ludlam start at eight with Curry and Underhill on the flanks.

Ben Youngs as a bit of a shocker by his standard's. so who is next in line Spence, Care, Wiggleworth? who ever it need time against Italy.

Ford should also be rested Farrel at ten Francis, Manu, in the centre. May needs more game time. Is Slade going to be fit in time for this weekend or the RWC?

Any news on Mako from yesterdays game?

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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 1:59 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

Ref favoured Wales blah blah blah. Law change blah blah blah. England are amazing blah blah blah.

Wales didn’t break any laws, so the bellyaching is nonsensical. If we are playing sporting as has been said on here, then why did people not moan about England carrying on when Murray was flat out? Great sports.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 4:40 am

RiscaGame wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

Ref favoured Wales blah blah blah. Law change blah blah blah. England are amazing blah blah blah.

Wales didn’t break any laws, so the bellyaching is nonsensical. If we are playing sporting as has been said on here, then why did people not moan about England carrying on when Murray was flat out? Great sports.

The difference is actually not that subtle.......however, it is good and sensible that WR has acted swiftly and sensibly. If you can’t see the difference then don’t ( in your words) bellyache.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 7:22 am

Theres a thread on the law change as you well know risca (you've already complained people have the temerity to talk about it) which may be a more appropriate place to raise either your support or anger of it.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:00 am

Poorfour wrote:I’m not sure your impression of Marler is accurate. According to ESPN, he didn’t carry much (though he matched Healy), but his tackle stats were 9/1 (4th equal for England after Underhill, Itoje and Kruis). That’s a pretty good level of involvement for a prop. If he has room to improve, so much the better.

But I agree with you that Daly and Youngs need to improve or England will be quite exposed.

I spent a fair bit of time watching Joe walking from set piece to breakdown in the second quarter. When called on to do things he was good, but at times others were needing to cover for him. He was not bad just seemed to be struggling a little with the pace and intensity which even in a friendly was a step up from Premiership. The run out will have done him the world of good, and with the doubts over Mako we need Marler close to his best. 

Farrell was another who understandably looked a little rusty at first. The whole point of these warmup is to allow players to rebuild their match fitness and so far that is what we are seeing. As a whole these games so far seem 5o be doing the job of getting us ready perfectly. I am pretty happy with where we are.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:46 am

Its looking good for England right now. Some really good players. I would personally like to see England do well if Ireland don't and I accept it looks that way right now. Who are England's likely QF opponents if they win their group? I believe its Wales or Australia? I assume England fans would prefer to play Australia?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:23 pm

From the highlights Youngs seemed to be doing OK - and Marler looked good. But I appreciate it wasn't showing Young's box kicks going out on the full.

The good thing with Marler is that he looks like he wants to be there, which obviously was not the case before.

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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:27 pm

What’s the latest on Mako Vunipola?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:28 pm

Well when you are winning by 50 points everyone wants to be there, no?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:29 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

Ref favoured Wales blah blah blah. Law change blah blah blah. England are amazing blah blah blah.

Wales didn’t break any laws, so the bellyaching is nonsensical. If we are playing sporting as has been said on here, then why did people not moan about England carrying on when Murray was flat out? Great sports.

It was a warm up game like the one the week before (the one that was apparently gifted to England). I'd just be a lot more concerned that you were only able to create a single try under those circumstances against that particular England team.


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Post by Poorfour on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:34 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Well when you are winning by 50 points everyone wants to be there, no?

The margin of victory wasn't quite that comprehensive until the last few minutes. And Marler's impact in the first half, which was close until England's late try, was good.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's ever been an issue with Marler's motivation on the pitch. On House of Rugby he said that in the final game in South Africa he refused to come off and played the full 80 because he thought it was his last game of International rugby and he wanted to make the most of it.

The question for him has always been whether or not to put himself through being away from his family for extended periods. Clearly he has decided that the RWC is worth the separation, and England and the game are better for it.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:35 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Well when you are winning by 50 points everyone wants to be there, no?


Well yeah - but Marler retired from international rugby for a reason, and in the last couple of seasons before he did so there could be a recklessness about his play that told you he didn't care or want to be there - and could cause the inevitable problems with penalties (although I can't remember a yellow card). He was and remains a very good prop, probably not in the highest tier but definitely close. Having him back with his head and body in the right place is a real bonus for England, especially with Mako's injury problems.

I would expect him to retire from internationals again after the RWC.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:21 pm

lostinwales wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

Ref favoured Wales blah blah blah. Law change blah blah blah. England are amazing blah blah blah.

Wales didn’t break any laws, so the bellyaching is nonsensical. If we are playing sporting as has been said on here, then why did people not moan about England carrying on when Murray was flat out? Great sports.

It was a warm up game like the one the week before (the one that was apparently gifted to England). I'd just be a lot more concerned that you were only able to create a single try under those circumstances against that particular England team.

He’s right about the constant bellyaching though, and the bitterness from you over the No.1 team in world rugby has stood out, mostly for it’s hilarity. Wales kick chase and defend - it doesn’t score many tires but it concedes far less, oh and it’s working, hence the ranking. I’m not sure why anyone would be concerned about that but it seems you are.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:31 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

Ref favoured Wales blah blah blah. Law change blah blah blah. England are amazing blah blah blah.

Wales didn’t break any laws, so the bellyaching is nonsensical. If we are playing sporting as has been said on here, then why did people not moan about England carrying on when Murray was flat out? Great sports.

It was a warm up game like the one the week before (the one that was apparently gifted to England). I'd just be a lot more concerned that you were only able to create a single try under those circumstances against that particular England team.

He’s right about the constant bellyaching though, and the bitterness from you over the No.1 team in world rugby has stood out, mostly for it’s hilarity. Wales kick chase and defend - it doesn’t score many tires but it concedes far less, oh and it’s working, hence the ranking. I’m not sure why anyone would be concerned about that but it seems you are.

Not sore. But it is about consistency and timing at a point where other teams have fallen away or not yet got their act together. Ireland's best performances, when they really did beat everyone, and England's 18 match winning run (see Ireland for the cause of the end of it) both came when New Zealand's rating was untouchable. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:36 pm

You are bit sore though, there’s no point in lying about it when your bitter posts are still there to read. Personally I think Wales can and should get better but that remains to be seen. Ireland seem to be going backwards, and I only watched the highlights of your most recent game but I think England have looked good in all 3 matches so far. Honestly the No.1 ranking doesn’t really count for much right now but it does show the consistency like you’ve alluded to, and I guess we could lose it this weekend or next. It won’t really matter because Wales aren’t ‘the best’ unless they beat NZ in the World Cup final.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:40 pm

Lol.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:55 pm

lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just looked back, Pie has an encyclopedic knowledge it seems of the Wales - England game in Cardiff, but no knowledge at all of the Twickenham game, not one post about an experimental England sides demolition of what was effectively Wales starting XV. Not a one.

England only want referees that favour them seems to be the message, not many posters thought that the ref favoured England in that one, nearly all the posters that were non partisan and commented on the game last week, thought he ref favoured Wales. Even WR it seems as they changed the Laws to include what was an accepted protocol that the ref had conveniently forgot.

This week, Ireland are useless, didn't bother turning up, just gave the game to England. If I were an Irishman I would be disappointed with the performance, very disappointed. However, that does not account for the 57-15 scoreline; Eddie got what he wanted, shear brutality at the breakdown and just about every where else. Few teams even those "on song" could have lived with the game England played yesterday, just so much power everywhere, and some very soft hands to go with it, allowing the next power phase to commence.

World Cup winning performance, no. Enough to make other teams be very wary, yes.

Ref favoured Wales blah blah blah. Law change blah blah blah. England are amazing blah blah blah.

Wales didn’t break any laws, so the bellyaching is nonsensical. If we are playing sporting as has been said on here, then why did people not moan about England carrying on when Murray was flat out? Great sports.

It was a warm up game like the one the week before (the one that was apparently gifted to England). I'd just be a lot more concerned that you were only able to create a single try under those circumstances against that particular England team.

He’s right about the constant bellyaching though, and the bitterness from you over the No.1 team in world rugby has stood out, mostly for it’s hilarity. Wales kick chase and defend - it doesn’t score many tires but it concedes far less, oh and it’s working, hence the ranking. I’m not sure why anyone would be concerned about that but it seems you are.

Not sore. But it is about consistency and timing at a point where other teams have fallen away or not yet got their act together. Ireland's best performances, when they really did beat everyone, and England's 18 match winning run (see Ireland for the cause of the end of it) both came when New Zealand's rating was untouchable. Enjoy it while it lasts.

oh very true, in fact it took those runs to narrow it, as did the two Ireland wins, so Wales have seized their opportunity through better timing in that respect as theyve crossed the line with their run, and didnt even meet the ABs.

But in terms of world cup timing England have used the four years far more effectively. In that time they removed the ghost of 2015, enjoyed a run of their own, got beat, put up with injuries and overplay due to the Lions tour, and are now peaking at the right time again, star and x factor players intact. Easily the most likely WCup chances of the north.

Ireland have timed theres worst. Had a decent run earlier but did it on a narrow gameplan built subtly on negativity...possession, rush defence, the usual make the opposition crack stuff.

Now they cant maintain that hold over sides and need to score tries and can't. Simple as that. No convincing wins all year and to add to that are getting hit with injuries. The claiming of depth has not realised and 'missing players' are being given up as loss reasons. 2015 was similar. One thing fans should never claim is to have depth until theyve fully illustrated the team can win with it in big matches without their first liners. No good claiming it when four world class flankers are sitting on the bench or at home as weve seen, when they were winning.

Wales have timed their run a little too early, and need to re-peak but they know that. Injuries with Anscombe and particularly Faletau are going to hit them at knockout time.

England to go semi or final/ win. (correction...) Wales semi or r/up best / Ire- semi at best.


Last edited by Taylorman on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:57 pm

Care must be pissed. Gets totally cast aside after one meaningless poor performance and then gets to watch Youngs continue to play poorly and be untouchable.

Impressive result for England, looking forward to the world cup.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:02 pm

yappysnap wrote:Care must be pissed. Gets totally cast aside after one meaningless poor performance and then gets to watch Youngs continue to play poorly and be untouchable.

Impressive result for England, looking forward to the world cup.

It could be worse, have you heard of Aled Davies?

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Post by Yoda on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:26 pm

Well it all gets a bit silly when in reality teams aren't even matched in terms of strength and readiness. A little bit of realism from all fans wouldn't go amiss and perhaps giving credit were credit is due would be the right thing to do. For the record I have already congratulated Wales and their effective style, there's more than one way to skin a cat and if it ain't broke etc. Ireland will be better against Wales and well done England for a good performance but no one is getting ahead of themselves.

Back to the actual subject of the discussion, the Italy game should hopefully see the other squad players in action and potentially any replacements for injured players (fingers crossed for mako).
15. Watson
14. May
13. Manu 1st half jj second half
12. Slade let's see if he can be a play maker akin to farrell this weekend try and swap the pairing around
11. McConnochie
10. Faz
9. Youngs, let's be honest needs the practise
8. Wilson, back up to vunipola
7. Underhill
6. Maro see if he can play there to cover if necessary
5. Launchers
4. Laws
3. Sinkler
2. Singleton
1. Marler

These are the only possible combos left aprt from a Francis slade combo incase of injury. Manu has to play 13 and I reckon slade would make a cracking 12 at international level.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 7:52 am

yappysnap wrote:Care must be pissed. Gets totally cast aside after one meaningless poor performance and then gets to watch Youngs continue to play poorly and be untouchable.

Pleasantly impartial comment Wink

In truth Care was not cut due to a single game. He had already been left out of the squad for SA just a few months earlier. Care's goose was cooked in the 2018 6 nations when his performances after Youngs was crocked against Italy saw Wigglesworth recalled. I would rathe have Care in the squad than Heinz though. 

While Youngs was one of England's poorer performers, with some passes not great and some kicks too long, he was far from dreadful. He was quick to the breakdowns, keeping the tempo of the game high, had 3 try assists and played an important role in two other tries. Youngs was very good last Autumn and decent in the 6Ns. He is now the England fans go to player to hate on. Sometimes the criticism has validity but is seriously excessive.

His performances for Leicester however were poor, and if Robson or Spencer had replaced him he could have had no complaints. His performances for England however have been much better.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 7:58 am

I was surprised when heinz was picked by hes rhe one who looks like an england regular. I didn't see the youngs you saw play the weekend. Let's hope its rustiness

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 8:11 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was surprised when heinz was picked by hes rhe one who looks like an england regular. I didn't see the youngs you saw play the weekend. Let's hope its rustiness

As LT says Young's created several tries with well timed passes and kept the tempo up. He does, however, look only 80% fit. Having sat out the final few weeks of the Prem season with injury that probably isn't a shock. The extra fitness camps and another run out should hopefully see him come back towards his best.

LT isn't wrong, he was dreadful for Tigers last season and seemed to save his best form for England.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 8:43 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was surprised when heinz was picked by hes rhe one who looks like an england regular. I didn't see the youngs you saw play the weekend. Let's hope its rustiness

England were 5 tries to the good when Heinz came on. His first actions, from memory, were a kick too long and a pass to Ford's ankles. Of course the Youngs critics will point out that is what an England regular 9 does Very Happy

Again purely subjective view from the stands but it felt like Heinz was slower to the breakdowns. The negative impacts of this counterbalanced by Ireland being knackered and no longer lying all over the ball.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 8:56 am

Watched the game again yesterday as after a weekend full of sport they forgot to put any on! Heinz s first kick was the Tuilagi tackle so just about judged to perfection. I wasnt basing it purely o this game though but the previous 2. On form heinz is streets ahead at the moment but hopefully youngs gets back to somewhere approaching decent. Cant agree he was anything more than a 5 this weekend with an extremely comfy ride.
Maybe I was focusing on youngs.more as everyone else was superb. When he just threw the ball into a retreating irish player to try and get a pen not realising the rules and allowing a counter attack when the match was still in the balance (or ar least not completely done had me with my head in my hands. Good job Owens let's forward passes go when a little close as well.

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Post by hugehandoff on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 9:07 am

A touch more reality from us Eng fans please. Ireland were under prepared and will not be that bad again. Their lineout won't ever be that bad again. We should not over react to defeats or victories, but just be pleased we are moving in the right direction.

What does it all mean for the crunch RWC games? Is it Farrell, Ford and Manu or will Eddie be flexible according to the opposition and still get Slade involved if he plays well against Italy? Will Nowell have a chance at 15? Are Underhill and Curry nailed on starters or will he go with Wilson at 6? TBH all great choices to have and ones we have never had before due to injuries. But because of these injuries we do now have experience with different players and combos which could be very useful.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 9:21 am

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Care must be pissed. Gets totally cast aside after one meaningless poor performance and then gets to watch Youngs continue to play poorly and be untouchable.

Pleasantly impartial comment Wink

In truth Care was not cut due to a single game. He had already been left out of the squad for SA just a few months earlier. Care's goose was cooked in the 2018 6 nations when his performances after Youngs was crocked against Italy saw Wigglesworth recalled. I would rathe have Care in the squad than Heinz though. 

While Youngs was one of England's poorer performers, with some passes not great and some kicks too long, he was far from dreadful. He was quick to the breakdowns, keeping the tempo of the game high, had 3 try assists and played an important role in two other tries. Youngs was very good last Autumn and decent in the 6Ns. He is now the England fans go to player to hate on. Sometimes the criticism has validity but is seriously excessive.

His performances for Leicester however were poor, and if Robson or Spencer had replaced him he could have had no complaints. His performances for England however have been much better.

Ha I admit I am incredibly far from impartial! I do try to be about most things but this decision, and the fact Heinz of all people was picked instead, and Brown being dropped, have soured things for me.

But what's the point of this place if we can't be a bit biased eh??

Tbh I think a lot of people's problem with youngs is he's never quite lived up to the initial exhilarating potential of his first caps. Add to that others just never being given a chance (not Youngs fault there). And he becomes the fall guy.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 9:38 am

Heinz for me is looking like the starter. The zip and intention when he came on was so much better than Youngs'.

I was astonished at how poor Youngs' passing was at times. Not only were his long passes a little wayward, but there were times when he would pass to a first receiver no more than 3 metres away, and it would be at head height. That's abysmal for an international scrumhalf.

Great all round performance from England, but difficult to take too much away from the game when Ireland were so poor. Underhill and Curry were outstanding.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:49 am

I like these quotes from the guardian billy vunipola.
' I would like to see that performance away from home,” Vunipola said. “That is the biggest thing for me. I have said it to Eddie in the changing rooms. It is something we need to start doing away from Twickenham. That is the biggest challenge next, going to Japan and doing it away from all our fans and the comforts of our home changing room. There is massive scope for us to improve. That is the biggest challenge for us. Now everyone is going to pump up our tyres because we did well this week, but it was only last week [after losing to Wales] that everyone was hammering us.”
The first reason I like it is it seems the guys youd expect to be senior players are standing up and leading conversations with Eddie and seemingly the wider squad. The 2nd is the obvious thing that we should be putting these displays on away from home. What better place to start than the world cup.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:59 am

We managed it in Dublin earlier in the year, but yes these kind of performances are usually at home.

What I quite liked is that while officially our lineout was perfect, the first couple were rather ropey but the players sorted it out for themselves without need for coach intervention.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:09 am

Yeah bar Henderson stripping us first up it went well. Seemed to have learned lessons from last week where perhaps Wales.got away with a bit of in from the side and collapsing the second ireland looked tonve stopping etc the ball was away. A huge rolling maul drive is great but our backline is fantastic why would we want to keep it solely in the forwards.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watched the game again yesterday as after a weekend full of sport they forgot to put any on! Heinz s first kick was the Tuilagi tackle so just about judged to perfection. I wasnt basing it purely o  this game though but the previous 2. On form heinz is streets ahead at the moment but hopefully youngs gets back to somewhere approaching decent. Cant agree he was anything more than a 5 this weekend with an extremely comfy ride.
Maybe I was focusing on youngs.more as everyone else was superb. When he just threw the ball into a retreating irish player to try and get a pen not realising the rules and allowing a counter attack when  the match was still in the balance (or ar least not completely done had me with my head in my hands. Good job Owens let's forward passes go when a little close as well.

The attempt at winning the penalty was out of desperation. He got a static offload with no support. Had Manu's knee touched the ground before releasing the ball Youngs would have had his penalty. There was a few times that England tried to force the pace a little too much Vs Ireland, particularly in the first half. By the second half Ireland were on the ropes and it was easy to set the pace at what we liked and run through them. I think that was one of the reasons Eddie says it was only an 80% performance we won't get away with those errors against RWC ready teams.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:13 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seemed to have learned lessons from last week

And this is key.

Wales learned a lot from the Twickenham game and adapted a week later, taking the strength of the English forwards out of the game, Wales also played the ref a lot better. Ireland could not cope with Englands strength, just as they couldn't in the 6N, Ireland will need to start learning and adapting better.

This is what these games are for, to test yourself and learn before the WC.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:19 am

Negated the drive well. Not sure youd get away with it with other refs but its hopefully focused a few minds.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:23 am

Careful 7.5, that sounds awfully like English chest thumping

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:24 am

I dont mind. I have the courage of my convictions.

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