England vs Tonga match thread

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 11:23 am

First topic message reminder :

England

V

Tonga


Last edited by maestegmafia on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:28 pm

BamBam wrote:Am I back...

Nope.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:33 pm

Ah excellent 

I look forward to you banning all non English posters on Thursday LT, seems the done thing

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:34 pm

I have to say the england thread yesterday was a joke on that point.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:36 pm

Perhaps we should feel flattered that our neighbours take so much interest in our performance.

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Post by Rinsure on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:42 pm

Poorfour wrote:So whose result was better England 35-3 Tonga or Wales 43-14 Georgia?

Both BP wins with no injuries; both similar margins of victory between similarly ranked teams. Would you rather 4 tries to nil or 6 to 2?

The "nil" is the good bit. I don't imagine Shaun Edwards will be too happy about Wales shipping two tries (although I haven't seen them yet).

Good for both sides to get going. I don't think you can say one result is better than the other, there's too many variables, but yeah, no tries conceded is nice. See if we can keep that record intact on Thursday too! I think Wales will take confidence from their first half display into the big one with Aus on Saturday.



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Post by miaow on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:45 pm

TightHEAD wrote:What was Daly doing?????

If I recall correctly, it was a 2 on 1 in lots of space, and he slowed down to try and 'fix' the last man, allowing Slade a walk in. Had he kept running at pace, obviously you have less time to react/have to release the ball earlier, but the main reason for slowing down is reduce the speed and therefore reduce the power of the hit. Daly was willing to draw and pass and take the tackle, but not at full pace - that's the effect of a physical team, and thought Tonga deserve huge, huge credit for managing to do that for the full 80 minutes.

Slade, of course, doesn't read what Daly is doing, so over-runs it, resulting in what looks like comical backs play.

It was poor, and Daly is more 'at fault' than Slade, but it takes two to botch it. But that's how I read it - he slowed down to stop the Tongan defender from drifting, keeping the opportunity to not only pass but possibly score himself with a dart to the inside shoulder if the defender did drift. In doing so, Slade blitzed past him as Daly slowed everything down.

I imagine EJ will be unhappy with Daly there. Everything good about England is explosive and physical, and Daly shied away from both there. A minor gripe but you have to be willing to put your body on the line against better opposition, even if you get crumpled. Australia showed how to do it against Fiji, get knocked down 9 times, get back up 10. Thought England struggled with the physicality yesterday, which was a bit surprising.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:48 pm

Bar it being the other way round and slade fixing him man with daly over running.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:50 pm

Lol I was reading that post wondering if I was losing the plot

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:54 pm

Yeah Slade was giving the pass, though I thought Daly was criminal to have over run it. Slade had an opportunity to put Ford or Manu through earlier in the game and took the contact instead and looked a bit shaky after.

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Post by miaow on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:55 pm

Poorfour wrote:So whose result was better England 35-3 Tonga or Wales 43-14 Georgia?

Both BP wins with no injuries; both similar margins of victory between similarly ranked teams. Would you rather 4 tries to nil or 6 to 2?

Ultimately, completely different games with different 'needs'. This was the first game England looked like they were starting to put in place a more measured gameplan, which we didn't see in the warm ups, because they didnt need it. When they faced Wales away - who did try and include some spoiling, and tactical pressure - England looked off the pace and barely threatened the tryline. Here, they'll be happy their defence held Tonga out, but also that they got through the game unscathed.

Wales' situation is quite different. The key game of the WC is on Sunday, not in a few weeks. Perfect tactics - strong start, never have to worry about the scoreboard after the second try, and don't have to flog players past 60 minutes to both win the game and get a bonus point. The result was wrapped up by half time, and it showed - Wales were passive second half, didn't want to put their head where it hurt, and conceded two tries while losing several good attacking positions through lack of urgency and aggression. The positives were a touch more inventiveness of first phase, and of course the broken field ability is there, always has been. But no issue with the defence, they'll bring it against Australia and lay everything on the line. The issue - still, again - was scoring through phaseplays and slow ball when you get in the right areas. Georgia scored a try from 2 phases in the Welsh 22. Wales went through numerous phases and got turned over. Not good enough.

That's the difference between the two sides, not the defence at this stage. I'd be happier knowing England can and do score in those positions. Wales seem to need to rely on counter attacking from broken field, mistakes, or a setpiece move. Still lack that inventiveness to create something 4-5 phases after the ball slow down, and Biggar doesn't help. All England have to do is go to the various kicking options they have.

In terms of the group and how 'good' each result was - evens. 5 points each, avoided a banana skin, and it looks like no citings or injuries.

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Post by miaow on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:57 pm

Ah, in which case I think it might have been primarily Slade's fault. I haven't rewatched it but remember seeing Slade giving Daly jip, which was great camerawork, and that must have stuck in my mind. I should rewatch it - there's probably a case to be made for the outside man reading the ball carrier. I might have got it wrong, but after all, it does take 2 to mess it up.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:57 pm

Fortunately England are unlikely to come up against a team as physical as Tonga for the remainder of the tournament - if there even is one.

For the USA game, I could see Eddie going near enough unchanged. I'd say between 5 and 7 changes is most likely, I cant see him changing over half the team.

When we talk about minnows closing the gap (as was a theme last time round) how much consideration is given to teams now managing resources in a different way?

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:02 pm

robbo277 wrote:Fortunately England are unlikely to come up against a team as physical as Tonga for the remainder of the tournament - if there even is one.

For the USA game, I could see Eddie going near enough unchanged. I'd say between 5 and 7 changes is most likely, I cant see him changing over half the team.

When we talk about minnows closing the gap (as was a theme last time round) how much consideration is given to teams now managing resources in a different way?

7/15 = 0.46666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 (etc)

or to one decimal place 0.5

Very Happy

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:Fortunately England are unlikely to come up against a team as physical as Tonga for the remainder of the tournament - if there even is one.

For the USA game, I could see Eddie going near enough unchanged. I'd say between 5 and 7 changes is most likely, I cant see him changing over half the team.

When we talk about minnows closing the gap (as was a theme last time round) how much consideration is given to teams now managing resources in a different way?

7/15 = 0.46666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 (etc)

or to one decimal place 0.5

Very Happy

As a qualified mathematician I can confirm 7 is under half the team.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:06 pm

Think he will rest tuilagi itoje and vunipola personally.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think he will rest tuilagi itoje and vunipola personally.

I can see the logic for that, but not so sure he will. Can see Itoje being on the bench as surely he will want to give Launchbury and Kruis a game. He keeps telling us that Billy is a guy who needs to be playing to stay his best while I just feel that Eddie is not necessarily set on the Ford/Farrell/Manu midfield for the big games and may want to give the 6Ns combo of Farrell/Manu/Slade a run out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:12 pm

1 thing I'd never do is bet on jones naming a team!

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:13 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Poorfour wrote:So whose result was better England 35-3 Tonga or Wales 43-14 Georgia?

Both BP wins with no injuries; both similar margins of victory between similarly ranked teams. Would you rather 4 tries to nil or 6 to 2?
 
Probably 4-0. Wales were very good for the first 20 minutes, then completely switched off. As with us nothing much to gain from the game as they were always going to win pretty comfortably and will have their eye on games ahead.

So far it is hard to say any team has really shone. Some marked disappointments (mainly Scotland and SA) but teh winning teams have all perhaps struggled to get out of 3rd gear.

Scotland definitely. And with Watson out they look very vulnerable.

South Africa I think played well for a lot of the game but lacked the legs to keep that level of intensity up, and couldn't adapt when the All Blacks got a turnover. All the same, they will challenge most of the other sides in the tournament.

Ireland I think will be happy with their performance - though will hang on whether Sexton is fully fit, and will need to be wary of some bruising games ahead. NZ looked ominously good when it was on - but I think the NH top 3 have the fitness to put them under pressure for longer than SA - the question will be which of them can convert it into points on the board.
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:15 pm

SA were good in so many ways but due to their half backs had zero running game.

Ireland was a typical performance from them - it takes them so much effort to get over the line that I can see them all blown out by teh QFs.

These two are likely to meet at that stage and it will be very physical.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:SA were good in so many ways but due to their half backs had zero running game.

Ireland was a typical performance from them - it takes them so much effort to get over the line that I can see them all blown out by teh QFs.

These two are likely to meet at that stage and it will be very physical.

In this, you are not wrong.  The only area of concern in the system we use.  It demands so much physical energy from players, both in the doggedness of crossing the line within a ultra stubborn tight reference zone and then sucking up long periods of defence duty when ahead.  I don't think it is ever necessary to inject as much energy into winning a game as Ireland uses but I do think I know why Schmidt insists on sustaining the patterns.  And because I feel that I know why he does it, and when it is powerfully effective, I see its rugged beauty and I tolerate it.

I think the entirety of Joe Schmidt's time as coach of Ireland post WC 2015 has been to have another shot at a WC, using basically the same methods as before.  He seems to have a blueprint in his head and despite it failing in 2015, he still believes in its viability.

What he has learned from the first fail has honed the decisions he's made about this second shot at it.  Most important is creating that genuinely more durable squad - not really in terms of being more durable in the injury department, though undoubtedly that's part of it; but moreso, the durability of the system when players do succumb to injury.  It's an unforgiving system but then, despite the smiles and apparent meekness, Schmidt is known to be a ruthless coach.  He'll sacrifice players to his goal.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:25 pm

Schedule helps Ireland in that regard. Once the Japan game is out of the way, you'd think they'd be able to rotate and rest players against Samoa and Russia. Obviously both will present a big physical challenge, but the 9 day gap between the last two games will help massively


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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:25 pm

Would have made a good First World War General? Stick to the plan come what may, sacrifices to the cause a price worth paying?

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:10 pm

BamBam wrote:Schedule helps Ireland in that regard. Once the Japan game is out of the way, you'd think they'd be able to rotate and rest players against Samoa and Russia. Obviously both will present a big physical challenge, but the 9 day gap between the last two games will help massively


It does until it doesn't. Their likely quarter-final opponents, South Africa, have an extra 4 days rest until the end of the pool stage. Although the risk with South Africa will be more that they're undercooked than overworked.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:58 pm

A win,no injuries,5 points that's all that matters things to work on noted ok.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:37 pm

I keep on watching that first Tuilagi try. It is quite a stunning display of power breaking so many tackles from some really big guys.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:03 pm

lostinwales wrote:I keep on watching that first Tuilagi try. It is quite a stunning display of power breaking so many tackles from some really big guys.

It's baby oil thread woven into the shirts.  The English have left no stone unturned this time.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:37 am

Who was it that used to coat himself in vaseline pre game?Nick Easter?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:44 am

Ha. Surely against the rules?!

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Surely against the rules?!

Depends what the purpose of teh vaseline was - and where exactly he applied it.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:51 am

I've heard Mike Brown puts about a tub on his legs each game to make himself harder to tackle. I guess anyone scrambling might slip off?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:00 am

Good point well made LT. I'm not going to think any more about that.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:43 am

I used to play with a winger at colt level that used to cover all exposed parts with some sort of oil or gel, even his hands, he would then rub them on the soil and the gritty bits would stick to his hands and act like sandpaper

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:05 pm

Was he trying to scuff the ball up so it would reverse swing in the second half? Wasn't an Aussie by any chance?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:16 pm

No, straight out of the East End of London, or his family were anyway.

Nigh on 50 years ago now, but I can't remember him ever dropping a pass even in the wettest weather even with the bars of soap we used to play with in those days when it got wet.

We had another bloke who was a complete nut case, wore full eye glass contact lenses to play, but used to put horse liniment on his beard. He was a hooker, so you can imagine the problems that caused for his opposite number and TH prop.

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Post by ebop on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 3:00 am

Anyone see Farrell’s shoulder hit to Ben Tameifuna’s head doing the rounds on Twitter? Wonder if 7.5 has seen it yet.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 5:47 am

I haven't. Just searched farrell Tameifuna on Twitter and nothing came up.

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Post by ebop on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 6:58 am

Try ‘Owen Farrell’s first tackle of the World Cup. Surely a matter of time..’
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 7:09 am

Shoulder to arm. The wait for a high one continues.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 7:40 am

I've gone in search of some as theres a few people now pointing to incorrect moments in games as high tackles or reds. Not sure its ever happened for england still as no one has given an example but there are a couple for saracens here. Borderline reds as theres other factors such as players falling from tackles anyway but seen them given. https://www.givemesport.com/1421312-rugby-fan-has-compiled-footage-of-owen-farrells-biggest-thug-moments

The high examples about 2 thirds in.

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Post by miaow on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:43 pm

ebop wrote:Anyone see Farrell’s shoulder hit to Ben Tameifuna’s head doing the rounds on Twitter? Wonder if 7.5 has seen it yet.

No. A link would be useful.

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Post by Rinsure on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:53 pm

miaow wrote:
ebop wrote:Anyone see Farrell’s shoulder hit to Ben Tameifuna’s head doing the rounds on Twitter? Wonder if 7.5 has seen it yet.

No. A link would be useful.

https://twitter.com/bg4141/status/1175850780982743041?s=20


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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:55 pm

Is that it, what desperate rubbish being produced on here these days.

Bitterness or jealousy?

100% fair tackle.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:56 pm

Rinsure wrote:
miaow wrote:
ebop wrote:Anyone see Farrell’s shoulder hit to Ben Tameifuna’s head doing the rounds on Twitter? Wonder if 7.5 has seen it yet.

No. A link would be useful.

https://twitter.com/bg4141/status/1175850780982743041?s=20


What utter nonsense.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:57 pm

Don't think it takes much of a reach to guess where person who posted the video is from

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Post by miaow on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 1:02 pm

Rinsure wrote:
miaow wrote:
ebop wrote:Anyone see Farrell’s shoulder hit to Ben Tameifuna’s head doing the rounds on Twitter? Wonder if 7.5 has seen it yet.

No. A link would be useful.

https://twitter.com/bg4141/status/1175850780982743041?s=20


Yellow card, never a red. Mitigating circumstances being no force in the tackle, it's very passive, and carrier goes low. But it's shoulder/arm to head, so it's a yellow.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 1:03 pm

No, its not a yellow.
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Post by miaow on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 1:05 pm

By the new directive it is. Could possibly argue it's shoulder to chest and then to chin. Worth looking at another angle, but there's evidence in that clip that it's a YC.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 1:06 pm

No you are wrong. That is not a yellow.
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Post by miaow on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 1:08 pm

Haha, ok...

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 1:11 pm

Arm to 4th chin is not shoulder to head.

Stop trying to cause trouble on an English thread..........boo hoo. Crying or Very sad

Are we going have to put up with this all world cup just because rival countries hate Farrell?
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