QF2 - Match Thread - New Zealand v Ireland - 19/10/19 - K/O 11:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

NZ



Team: B Barrett; Reece, Goodhue, Lienert-Brown, Bridge; Mo'unga, Smith; Moody, Taylor, Laulala, Retallick, Whitelock; Savea, Cane, Reid.

Replacements: Coles, Tuungafasi, Ta'avao, S Barrett, Todd, Perenara, Williams, J Barrett.


Ireland



Team: Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Furlong, Henderson, James Ryan, O'Mahony; Van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Beirne, Ruddock, McGrath, Carbery, Larmour.



Venue: Tokyo
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Pascal Gauzere
AR2: Angus Gardiner
TMO: Graham Hughes

[rodders]

Losing to Japan was surely the death knell for Ireland in this tournament. They did win subsequent games against no-names but it’ll be difficult to flush the dunny on that Japan loss.

Actually I'm pretty happy about that one, we haven't lost 2 games in a RWC since 2007 so statistically it bodes well for us winning the tournament now...

[eirebilly]

I was all doom and gloom about this match but as it draws closer I am actually starting to believe.

[Collapse2005]

I was all doom and gloom about this match but as it draws closer I am actually starting to believe.

Good to hear Billy. The main thing for me is that the team and coaches believe they will win and I am certain they do.

Thats what gives me confidence because if the players arent confident then forget about it. To win these games you have to go get them and to do that you have to back yourself at all times and that takes a lot of belief.

[SecretFly]

Beating Japan means we'd have met SA in all likelihood.  Now even if we won that QF - and I keep saying SA and NZ, and add in England in current form too; they're much of a muchness - but even if we won against SA, the chances are we'd have a few players perhaps out of the rest of the WC with injuries, because that would have been one big collision game as both sides tried to assert a forward dominance.
NZ are physical too but play a different brand of rugby that tends to be less attritional in nature.  If you wanted to go further in the competition based solely on the hope of having more of your relied upon players available to you, then you'd probably choose NZ.  And despite what everyone seems to think, I'm sure Ireland, like all the rest of the QFinalist had in mind going all the way, not just winning a QF.  If they win, they still want to win the next one too.
You still have to try to beat NZ, which is never easy - but at least you might have something left for another round if you did

Meanwhile, for a fact, NZ will have been planning to see Scotland more than Ireland in the QFs.  They now have the same issues as we might expect to have had with SA.  We're a much more knarly, abrasive and forwards dominated side than runabout Scotland.  So even though they'll expect to beat us, there are real risks here for NZ in terms of the game they might be dragged into and the risks of injury.  They won't want to be meeting England (if England it be) with injuries to central players after a tough physical game with us.
So our projected route might have been complicated by that loss to Japan.  But that loss to Japan has complicated the route and 'warm up' schedule of NZ.

And I'm detecting in the air, despite the outward show of full confidence, NZ aren't as fully certain about this as they'd like.  They really didn't want to be meeting Ireland at this point - even if they win.
If we can prove to them early on that the reservations were real and that they're not going to just cruise the game, then we can dig even deeper into that Always On confidence they play with.

[rodders]

I was all doom and gloom about this match but as it draws closer I am actually starting to believe.

Yup.

[Guest]

I was all doom and gloom about this match but as it draws closer I am actually starting to believe.

Yup.

Getting the drinks in early does help

[SecretFly]

I was all doom and gloom about this match but as it draws closer I am actually starting to believe.

Yup.

Getting the drinks in early does help

Jesus, I hope the players aren't drinking before the game. Bring ye old sport into disrepute if so. WR will be pi-sensed.... but not drunk.

[profitius]

There are reasons to be optimistic.
It might be a wet day.
The Irish players are under little pressure to win. All the pressure is on NZ and the longer its a tight game the more nervous they'll get.
Owens will be made aware of some big calls going against us late in games v NZ.
Irish fans might outnumber kiwis. Kiwis have probably bought tickets for the final.
After the 2 wins in recent years, the players know they can win.
Schmidt is Hansen's bogeyman.
The team has been holding back da movez all year in preparation for thus game.
NZ are not the team of 2015.
Its as full strength a side as Schmidt could have wished for.

[Guest]

Profitius, you forgot to mention Sexton is the best player in the world and he’ll lead the team to glory

[Guest]

It’s going to be a tough game. But god damned I’m annoyed with Ireland for stuffing things up and losing to a free-running dynamic Japan in pool play. Jeepers, we held our end of the bargain up and swept the pool without even needing to play a hapless Italy. But you guys, you really blew it and messed it up..

[Collapse2005]

The truth finally comes out.

[The Great Aukster]

My only worry is that if Ireland do pull it off and give as much as they did 4 years ago they'll have nothing in the tank & injuries to face England (Sorry Oz, unless Hoopcock reinvent themselves that's just not going to happen), begrudgingly Curry & Underhill are class & & the English will have too much up front.
Hopefully we do get 1 surprise!

I'd take that 'worry', if Ireland could get past a game in the knock-outs for once!
Such is the disparity in resource New Zealand can afford to experiment and keep some players in reserve for the next game, but Ireland have no such luxury. This is Ireland's Final and they should empty the tank with no thought beyond Saturday.

[rodders]

It's true, I'm worried about it too, I'd rather lose to NZ than England in the SF. I hope Joe empties the bench around 55 min to keep things fresh for the SF....

[Guest]

Come to think of it the ABs do show a lot of creativity in the haka... and they brought the world the double spear tackle.

Still crying huh? 14 years and counting.

'They don't like it up em' is the phrase that relates to the ABs here. Or, they can give it out, but can't take it. Lots of 'crying' from the Kiwis about this on St. Richie and it doesn't come close to what happened to BOD.



(compare and contrast...)



& the Kiwi 'commentary'

[Guest]

The truth finally comes out.

Indeed, Ireland have already choked and you missed the point, again

[rodders]

Come to think of it the ABs do show a lot of creativity in the haka... and they brought the world the double spear tackle.

Still crying huh? 14 years and counting.

'They don't like it up em' is the phrase that relates to the ABs here. Or, they can give it out, but can't take it. Lots of 'crying' from the Kiwis about this on St. Richie and it doesn't come close to what happened to BOD.

I think that one would be a red in the WWE...

[Guest]

All this talk about the game - a card to NZ, evenjust yellow, and Ireland stand a great chance.

[Guest]

Ireland are toast and they know it

[Collapse2005]

The truth finally comes out.

Indeed, Ireland have already choked and you missed the point, again

If Ireland win, NZ will be the ones to choke and Ireland will still be in the tournament. What will your "point" be then? Oh well I can console myself with the fact that Ireland lost to Japan.

[Guest]

The truth finally comes out.

Indeed, Ireland have already choked and you missed the point, again

If Ireland win, NZ will be the ones to choke and Ireland will still be in the tournament. What will your "point" be then? Oh well I can console myself with the fact that Ireland lost to Japan.

Point is, your team has choked already and now your team is odds on to be given the boot out of the RWC in the quarter final stage, again. If only your team didn’t choke against Japan.

[Collapse2005]

It will be some fall from grace then if NZ lose? How will you console yourself?

Was watching an interview with Justin Marshall where he said when NZ came back from the RWC in 1999, when they arrived back at the airport he recalled that NZ baggage handling staff had written "losers" on all the ABs baggage that came out on the carousel. He went on to say that NZ has grown up as a nation since then and this kind of thing doesnt happen anymore. Im not so sure.

[Guest]

1999 was a bad year

[SecretFly]

Just looking at the Irish team more clinically, probably for the first time since it was named.  

Two things hit me.

It's been a while but now when I look at those names, I get the same feeling I got back at the beginning of 2018 before the 6N.  I felt they compiled a bloody good side and just sensed that no other team back then would match them.  It was a strange feeling but possibly for the first time in my life, full confidence in the strength of the combination of names.
Well, for some, it's been a long time since February 2018, and the wheels have seemingly come off the wagon big time.  But honestly, my honest sense looking at the team sheet - I think a bloody good team.

2nd thing for me though hardly commented on by my fellow countrymen, the complete absence from the 23 of who I think has overall been our most consistent and dangerous player in a bad year so far - Andrew Conway.  I'd probably have found a place for him in the side at the expense of another and then I'd be even more ready to believe that we might do this.

We'll have to save him for England so...

[SecretFly]

Bundee don't evade too often though.  We have plenty of contact junkies (space evaders as it were   )we need more simple contact evaders.

[Collapse2005]

Its great that we have a full strength side however, I would have loved a backrow of 6 Stander, 7 Leavy and 8 Conan with VdF and POM on the bench. That would be formidable. Anyway, the side we do have should be good enough and if its not then it will be clear we have to go back to the drawing board and fix our weaknesses which the IRFU have done a good job of addressing in the last 4 years.

Wish list:
Murray to score a couple of poachers tries.
Sexton to run the show
The Irish backrow to boss the gainline and breakdown
Big game from Stockdale
No reds or yellows
Owens to have a good game

[Old Man]

Just love the mature conversation on this thread.

One thing is sure, someone is going to feel pretty low after this match.

[Collapse2005]

Oh come on Old Man everyone wants to win their quarter final. You will feel low if SA lose too.

Its just a game though Im sure everyone will survive after.

[Guest]

Old Man being an Old Man with ‘higher’ standards, lol. It’s all fun and games, eh Guns

[Collapse2005]

I have a feeling he isnt any older than me and you. Anyway, I am ready to accept whatever outcome we get tomorrow.

[Guest]

Gregor Paul NZ Herald

“The Irish, under pressure, try to carry the ball harder, tackle harder, niggle more and bully their way back into the game. They have a fighter's mentality not a strategists.

It's what they know – put them under pressure and they will try to smash and intimidate their opposition, because presumably that's their comfort zone.

Japan's coach Jamie Joseph made the most astute observation about this after his team had beaten Ireland. He said that they knew if Ireland went behind they would respond physically.

Right on cue, the Irish, realising the game was slipping away from them when they fell 19-12 behind, fired up and ran the same doomed lines and tried to work the same unimaginative plays, but with the addition of a pressure-induced rage that hadn't previously been there.

They offered the same thing but delivered it angrier. Japan had planned for it, knew it would come and were ready to respond by playing yet faster and wider and stretch Ireland further. That was Japan's default mode of dealing with pressure and their natural comfort zone”.

[Guest]

Rubbish. Stupid dichotomy. 'Fighters not strategists'. Simplistic stuff. They're not exclusive.

[Collapse2005]

Rubbish. Stupid dichotomy. 'Fighters not strategists'. Simplistic stuff. They're not exclusive.

Bit daft concluding that Ireland arent a strategic team. To be honest I have read some really stupid stuff on how Ireland play recently. The worst is probably this effort from the Roar:

https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/10/18/why-im-going-for-the-most-boring-team-at-the-world-cup/

I cant tell if its meant to be a pastiche of a fictional empty headed view of Irish rugby from Australia or if its real.

[rodders]

Yeah I don't agree with it, I think against Japan we got sucked into chasing the game when we were only one score behind.

We're much better these days if the game is structured and we dictate the pace. If we can do that on Saturday we have a genuine chance otherwise we will be in trouble.

[Engine#4]

It's all falling into place for NZ. The fit squad. The extra rest. The over the hill opposition.The ref they want after campaigns against Barnes and the French. You'd nearly be embarassed for them if they don't win this one.

[profitius]

The kiwis are claiming the last few matches between the teams are irrelevant. They've lost their love of bringing up historical results.

[Collapse2005]

It's all falling into place for NZ. The fit squad. The extra rest. The over the hill opposition.The ref they want after campaigns against Barnes and the French. You'd nearly be embarassed for them if they don't win this one.

Thats another thing we hear a lot, over the hill opposition. Irelands average squad age is around the average mark for RWC squads. We have one old player and a few that are due to retire after the RWC, a bit like almost every other squad.

[Collapse2005]

The kiwis are claiming the last few matches between the teams are irrelevant. They've lost their love of bringing up historical results.

Yeah, but, but what about the time in 1899 NZ beat Ireland when the whole NZ side had typhoid. That's got to count for something.

[rodders]

Right signing out, enjoy the game everyone....

[Collapse2005]

Enjoy Rodders

[SecretFly]

Does Gregor Paul really think that Ireland forwards will just collect a ball from Murray who is standing right next to them, take about three paces forward at hard walking speed and drop to the ground to repeat, repeat, repeat?  Against New Zealand, in a QF?  
He should give the Irish some credit for knowing the antics they often adopted against Japan won't be good enough.  He should give them the credit of being one of the few sides in recent years that actually know how to combat the ABs ... and actually win - with strategy.  
He should know that Hansen's hint of a set-up on Joe can be repeated by Joe on him.  What has the Irish team shown?  Nothing really in the eyes of most observers.  And yet here they are in a QF, with quite a few tries scored by both backs and forwards and only two tries scored against them in four games.  What happens if that calibre of nothing actually begins to find form or expose real form?
But then Gregor Paul is part of the AB propaganda machine.  Try to lower the morale of the opposition.  Lord Haw Haw.  That's his job.
ABs can still win of course, with or without Gregor's sideline contributions, but really, if he thinks Ireland's efforts against Japan is their A game then it doesn't improve the memories of such a crap team being able to get a few over on the mighty ABs.  If Ireland are just a caveman crap side, I'd say it very quietly indeed if I was Gregor.

[Pie]

Ok AB fans lets get those excuses ready.....

1. We were sick
2. We had to make Men in Black 2
3. There was a typhoon
4. That ref was cheating
5. Typhoon
6. We were undercooked cos we didnt play Italy
7. Sick
8. Ref
9. We weren't allowed to do head shots anymore

[Collapse2005]

If Ireland win it will definitely be because Joe Schmidt is a Kiwi and because of all the residency qualified players in the squad from the SH.

[Collapse2005]

I wonder are the ABs at risk of being over emotional going into this game given that they will want to set the record straight after last year. Its well known that they were lucky to escape two red cards in the reverse fixture in '06. Will NZ have learned their lesson? Will Sam Cane be able to control his agression?

[Taylorman]

Just love the mature conversation on this thread.

One thing is sure, someone is going to feel pretty low after this match.

Oh this is exactly how I expected this thread to play out. It’s all nervous energy and I’ve long learned how to take these losses now, the 24 years in between wins certainly didnt help but the end of it did. 2007, 2011 and 15 teach you it’s just a game.

Enjoy the banter, the wins but always know even the ABs can’t win em all.

Unfortunately those unfamiliar with the losing period will take it harder, thinking like we did after 87 that all NZ has to do is roll up to these and win.

As the Irish start to get more confident I’m starting to have doubts and that happens too. It’s just pre match nerves and pity is one of NZ or Ireland go home, one of Schmidt or Hansen end their test coaching careers tonight, as does Read and a few others stop for good if they lose.

But we move on. We look forward to a new coach and that’s always exciting. We’ve only had two in 15 years!

But bring tonight on, this is why we love this game, fo4 moments like these

[Taylorman]

I wonder are the ABs at risk of being over emotional going into this game given that they will want to set the record straight after last year. Its well known that they were lucky to escape two red cards in the reverse fixture in '06. Will NZ have learned their lesson? Will Sam Cane be able to control his agression?

Last year is nothing guns. We’ve lost to sides outside this tournament and beaten them in it many times. They might use it fir motivation and if anything you should know what the ABs do in ‘rematches’...Chicago then Dublin, Perth then Eden park, 2011 and 2015 pre tournament losses to Oz and SA.

They’ve won every single second meet after a loss since 2009. Against everyone, and there are many, at least 15-20.

So they know how to extract revenge if they need to,

[Taylorman]

Rubbish. Stupid dichotomy. 'Fighters not strategists'. Simplistic stuff. They're not exclusive.

Really, yet it’s exactly what they do every time they get behind. Ireland are not a smart team. In Sexton and Murray they have a couple of thinkers but generally, Joseph, and Paul, are right. They revert to type under scoreboard pressure and for Joseph to have worked that out with a tier two team is quite embarrassing for Irish rugby. ‘Let the big dumb oafs turn it up when the heats on, and we’ll just go around them’.

They got played big time. Walked into a trap so wide they didn’t know what to do.

That will be Ireland’s problem. Complete and utter predictability. Except for a Sexton switch or nicely laid on chip, or a Murray snipe, Ireland’s marauding pack will just keep pounding towards the line all day, no thinking required.

[Collapse2005]

Yeah but they went about it the wrong way in 06. If they get that emotional this time they will be on a plane back to NZ on Sunday.

[Collapse2005]

Rubbish. Stupid dichotomy. 'Fighters not strategists'. Simplistic stuff. They're not exclusive.

Really, yet it’s exactly what they do every time they get behind. Ireland are not a smart team. In Sexton and Murray they have a couple of thinkers but generally, Joseph, and Paul, are right. They revert to type under scoreboard pressure and for Joseph to have worked that out with a tier two team is quite embarrassing for Irish rugby. ‘Let the big dumb oafs turn it up when the heats on, and we’ll just go around them’.

They got played big time. Walked into a trap so wide they didn’t know what to do.

That will be Ireland’s problem. Complete and utter predictability. Except for a Sexton switch or nicely laid on chip, or a Murray snipe, Ireland’s marauding pack will just keep pounding towards the line all day, no thinking required.

Must have been a fluke that they got to world number 1 ranking so

[Taylorman]

Does Gregor Paul really think that Ireland forwards will just collect a ball from Murray who is standing right next to them, take about three paces forward at hard walking speed and drop to the ground to repeat, repeat, repeat?  Against New Zealand, in a QF?  
He should give the Irish some credit for knowing the antics they often adopted against Japan won't be good enough.  He should give them the credit of being one of the few sides in recent years that actually know how to combat the ABs ... and actually win - with strategy.  
He should know that Hansen's hint of a set-up on Joe can be repeated by Joe on him.  What has the Irish team shown?  Nothing really in the eyes of most observers.  And yet here they are in a QF, with quite a few tries scored by both backs and forwards and only two tries scored against them in four games.  What happens if that calibre of nothing actually begins to find form or expose real form?
But then Gregor Paul is part of the AB propaganda machine.  Try to lower the morale of the opposition.  Lord Haw Haw.  That's his job.
ABs can still win of course, with or without Gregor's sideline contributions, but really, if he thinks Ireland's efforts against Japan is their A game then it doesn't improve the memories of such a crap team being able to get a few over on the mighty ABs.  If Ireland are just a caveman crap side, I'd say it very quietly indeed if I was Gregor.

Aha. Yet there’s thinking that Chicago and Dublin are apparently the ABs A game? An AI IS reflective of the ABs A game enough for Ireland to draw conclusions, yet an Irish World Cup pool match isn’t?

How does that work then? Ireland have a consistent record in losing at this thing, yet were ‘dumb’ enough to get caught out by a tier two side enough to dump them into second place to meet the ABs?

This is where the smarties will howl that was the plan but the non dumb amongst us know it wasn’t. Ireland got found out so easily by another kiwi coach that if they, and their fans, were smart enough, they’d say so.

Yet here we are.

[SecretFly]

‘Let the big dumb oafs turn it up when the heats on, and we’ll just go around them’.

How often did they go around us sucessfully?  Once....from the Rising Sun All Blacks?  When you go around folks, it's best usage of energy to score tries.

But they beat us fair and square.  The brainless orcs had their.... em, well they don't have brains but whatever is inside their skulls just fried in the humid heat.  Great defensive workout though.  Could come in handy.

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