RWC Final 2019 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA - Spill Over/Match Reaction Thread

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 10:29 am

First topic message reminder :

other one's getting full

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Post by ebop on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:23 pm

protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

Dont talk rubbish.

We have unrivalled talent coming through that are driven , huge and skilled.

World domination will come....


If the margin was 3 then yes, but it was 20 against a team where England just needed to pitch up. Something is wrong there
This latest incarnation of England was masterminded by an Aussie and a kiwi. England don’t have coaches that can step up and lead. They’re scared.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:25 pm

protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

Dont talk rubbish.

We have unrivalled talent coming through that are driven , huge and skilled.

World domination will come....


If the margin was 3 then yes, but it was 20 against a team where England just needed to pitch up. Something is wrong there
Its young side with puzzles over key positions...we'll fix them this 6n ....

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:28 pm

ebop wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

Dont talk rubbish.

We have unrivalled talent coming through that are driven , huge and skilled.

World domination will come....


If the margin was 3 then yes, but it was 20 against a team where England just needed to pitch up. Something is wrong there
This latest incarnation of England was masterminded by an Aussie and a kiwi. England don’t have coaches that can step up and lead. They’re scared.
laughing

Butt hurt kiwi.

We have some amazing young English coaches coming through.
Id be more worried that players like Jordie Barrett are getting caps.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:31 pm

Have to be honest I didn't see this tactical masterclass some are talking of. Good defence especially first half but england on another day wouldn't make those silly errors and get better field position. Scrums killed us but again we gave far too many opportunities for us to be killed in the scrums!

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Post by milkyboy on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:33 pm

Sadly I think they’ll look back and think they choked. Because that what it looked like. Wild passes, knock ons dropped high balls. Right from the off. It looked like the occasion got to them. If your set piece is taking a beating and you keep offering up field position with basic mistakes, it’s always going to be a long night. Even so, it’s fine margins. If the Farrell penalty goes over it’s a 3 point game and the momentum is with England.




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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:34 pm

It did look like a choke from a few players in the first half milky.

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Post by milkyboy on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:39 pm

I think they had challenger mentality as the underdog last week,. This week, you’re expected to win, panic can set in when things don’t go your way.

Or maybe they just played carp and i’m reading far too much into it. They just looked like rabbits in the headlights chucking wild passes around on their own try line in the first few minutes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:42 pm

Why cant it be both?!

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:44 pm

Are SA the first side to win a RWC without winning all their games?

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:44 pm

Pressure changes match situations.

New Zealand didn’t bring the physicality and pressure SA did

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:45 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Are SA the first side to win a RWC without winning all their games?
yes

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:48 pm

Nothing out of the ordinary with the pressure though OM. Will be interesting to see how daly gets on with saracens in the coming year. He was a guy who looked like the pressure of the occasion got to him. Hes not been in many of these situations before and he will be in plenty more. Going there normally improves players, I think it may be a rare miss for them.
Youngs you would expect to get hold of the game. He just didn't. A tournament where so many played to potential he will want to forget it fast.

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Post by protea438 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:50 pm

Maybe Gatland was right ??

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:53 pm

Very clever coaching from Rassie throughout

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 1:05 pm

I think Rassie’s downplay of Springbok tactics worked well. England caught unawares, never really gained control.

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Post by milkyboy on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 1:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why cant it be both?!

Yeh, think it was. OM is right too... SA brought a different challenge and a different kind of pressure. It’s true you always think you played badly when you lose, sometimes you play as well as you are allowed. For me this was both, the errors we made throughout the first half were largely self induced.

Ho hum, beaten by the better team in the day


Last edited by milkyboy on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Rinsure on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 1:21 pm

Well that was something of an anticlimax. Well done South Africa!

Pressure, pressure, pressure. They built it, and capitalised on it. We didn't handle it as well as we might have done, but there go you.

Four more years, boys, four more years.

At least France is easier to get to than Japan!

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 1:21 pm

I woud just like to SA congratulation's on the win today. SA clearly out played Englasnd, out thought England and deserve the win.
4
On England i would like to say congratulations on getting to the final of the RWC. Before the tournament started i honestly did not think England would get this far. I thought if England came up against NZ, NZ would win comfortably. 

It was said yesterday about the Wales squad getting to the semifinal that maybe the semi final was 1 game too far for Wales.

Well England getting to the final was maybe 1 game too many for England.
The turning point for me was when England was camped on SA's try line for 20 odd phases, was when Ben Youngs suddenly had a brain fa"t and decided to spread the ball a long the back line. I do believe that if England had got a try, it might of been a different result. But they didn't and all the Ifs, buts, woulda shoulda do not mean any thing. it did not happen and England lost to a better team on the day.

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Post by protea438 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:07 pm

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:24 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Steffan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....
Possibly. You are gonna have to go through us first mind Wales

Not an issue.  We'll smash you all over. This is a new breed of England.  They learned a lesson today that will hurt!!  
It will drive them on.
Bring it on. We are ready

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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:25 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Are SA the first side to win a RWC without winning all their games?
Yeah. Would have been the same if England won it also as they failed to beat France in the group stages

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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:26 pm

protea438 wrote:Maybe Gatland was right ??
Gatland was right. No maybe about it

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:35 pm

Steffan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Steffan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....
Possibly. You are gonna have to go through us first mind Wales

Not an issue.  We'll smash you all over. This is a new breed of England.  They learned a lesson today that will hurt!!  
It will drive them on.
Bring it on. We are ready
With regards England and Wales going into the 6ns how man players will still be in either side?

For England i would say all these players in this RWC will still be in the team/squad may be a few tweaks but the majority will be there.

Wales on the other hand will have some new players, new coaches, so it will be a matter of wait and see.

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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:37 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:With regards England and Wales going into the 6ns how man players will still be in either side?

For England i would say all these players in this RWC will still be in the team/squad may be a few tweaks but the majority will be there.

Wales on the other hand will have some new players, new coaches, so it will be a matter of wait and see.
We will be in a period of rebuilding. Hopefully peaking in 2023

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Post by Dirtydave on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:37 pm

New players?

Who of this Welsh side will be missing in 4 months?

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Post by Hood83 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:40 pm

Congrats to SA, far better. I don't think us English will ever learn that one swallow does not make a summer. They'll be a lot of sports columnists rowing back their predictions of inevitable English dominance for years to come, I imagine.

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Post by Hood83 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:44 pm

milkyboy wrote:I think they had challenger mentality as the underdog last week,. This week, you’re expected to win, panic can set in when things don’t go your way.

Or maybe they just played carp and i’m reading far too much into it. They just looked like rabbits in the headlights chucking wild passes around on their own try line in the first few minutes.

I think England has once again found it easy to play as underdogs than favourites. I also think it was completely overboard the expectation that they were firm favourites. Both wins against the ABs and Oz were promising but we were helped by some odd tactical and personnel choices in the latter from the ABs.

If I could bin off all our press so I never had to see another premature coronation of a talented but unexceptional English team I would.

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Post by Hood83 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing out of the ordinary with the pressure though OM. Will be interesting to see how daly gets on with saracens in the coming year. He was a guy who looked like the pressure of the occasion got to him. Hes not been in many of these situations before and he will be in plenty more. Going there normally improves players, I think it may be a rare miss for them.
Youngs you would expect to get hold of the game. He just didn't. A tournament where so many played to potential he will want to forget it fast.

Honestly always thought he was overrated, average pass and a hopeless ditherer. Good kicking and sniping but the speed of pass has never been good enough for me. But obviously not all his fault, we were beaten across the board. I'd hope we have a new SH come through and replace him but not sure who that could be.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 2:53 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
ebop wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

Dont talk rubbish.

We have unrivalled talent coming through that are driven , huge and skilled.

World domination will come....


If the margin was 3 then yes, but it was 20 against a team where England just needed to pitch up. Something is wrong there
This latest incarnation of England was masterminded by an Aussie and a kiwi. England don’t have coaches that can step up and lead. They’re scared.
laughing

Butt hurt kiwi.

We have some amazing young English coaches coming through.
Id be more worried that players like Jordie Barrett are getting caps.

You for real? You just got trumped by 20 with as good a side as you’ve ever had and you’re talking world domination?
Laugh Heard it all now.

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Post by protea438 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 3:03 pm

Lol one English rag rated Duanne Vermeulen almost the worst player in the SA team. There were only 2 lower in the Bok team and couple ranked higher in the English team.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 3:06 pm

South Africa just outplayed us today. Can't complain with the result in anyway shape or form.

England have that tendency to struggle when they can't physically impose themselves on the opposition. The South African defence was fantastic in cutting off the wide channels and funnelling the England attack back into the monster Bok forwards. England just didn't have an answer.

There are some plus points for England with some good young talent starting to come of age. We've already seen Cockanasiga and he'll get better with some more experience.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 4:07 pm

It will be interesting come the 6ns how many of this England rugby world cup side will keep their place. And who get a chance to come in in their place Will Ben young's Willie Heinz,
still be in the side? 

Will the likes of Ben Curry, Ben Spencer get a chance to stake their claim?

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 4:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have to be honest I didn't see this tactical masterclass some are talking of. Good defence especially first half but england on another day wouldn't make those silly errors and get better field position. Scrums killed us but again we gave far too many opportunities for us to be killed in the scrums!

I think you're missing the point. Sport is all about pressure and creating mistakes. SA have played this was for 18 months and well and truly turned up in the final when it mattered. On another day England wouldn't make them - but as I said earlier, how often are England on the backfoot up front? Almost never. They almost never have to play a game ike this and, personally, I think it showed.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 5:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing out of the ordinary with the pressure though OM. Will be interesting to see how daly gets on with saracens in the coming year. He was a guy who looked like the pressure of the occasion got to him. Hes not been in many of these situations before and he will be in plenty more. Going there normally improves players, I think it may be a rare miss for them.
Youngs you would expect to get hold of the game. He just didn't. A tournament where so many played to potential he will want to forget it fast.

With Liam Williams and Goode you can guarantee he won't be at 15...surely? He was good last week, but generally poor every other game at 15. Foolish to pick on him as the issues were in the forwards, clearly, but another day, another game, and those fine margins may have been costly. That said, who else was there? Watson's a better winger than Daly. Nowell is about 5'9".

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 5:03 pm

protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 5:08 pm

miaow wrote:
protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Agree, Rassie and his team went completely under the radar, the loss vs NZ moved them out of contention in many peoples minds. His game plan were criticized from all over, yet when it came to each of his knock out opponents he had a plan. No ody noticed, they were to busy criticizing him and fawning over brilliant performances such as NZ vs Ireland and England over Australia and NZ.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 5:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

Losing the crucial games seems to be a ingrained English rugby trait. One WC final victory out of four final appearances. Lots of lost Six Nations games at key times, especially under Woodward and Lancaster. Only 2 grand slams in the Six Nations in 20 attempts, which is a poor return.

I think it's a testament to how much more 'emotional' the game is up here than down in the SH - the crowd and fans really can turn a game, that fear and panic sets in and players can go to pieces or, more commonly, not show the courage and belief to go and maximise potential. It's also the way we teach sport as well, at all levels, and is much more about pragmatism, creating pressure through containment, and hard graft. Australian sporting culture is the world's best in terms of the mental side of the game - they know how to be bloody minded and not let that emotional side get to them. They know about creating and capitalising pressure through skills and expansiveness rather than outright meat and potates pressure that is far often to go to - a big sliding tackle in football, or charging down a kick in rugby. The NH is too guilty of relying on pressure created without the ball, rather than with it, which is where Australia and NZ excel - in the end, SA did a better NH-style pressure job than any of the NH teams could manage against them.

England probably have underperformed in Six Nations - 2011 and 2013 being prominent games where they coul dhave wrapped up the Grand Slam only to falter on the last game. But they have tough opponents in those tournaments, and the nature of playing away from home - dealing with that pressure and emotion from the crowd that isn't in the vast majority of sporting disciplines, bar soccer and a few other codes and the absolute top tennis/cricket matches - is worth a certain number of points to the opposition.

Eddie Jones has helped with the mental side but I don't really think this was England bombing under pressure or bottling it. There were signs of not dealing well with the pressure of the situation: Ford's kick out on the full reminiscent of Sexton against NZ missing the touch finder; Youngs flinging the ball in to touch a sign of overplaying. But they still looked calm, they were still cohesive, tapping each other, nodding, knowing that the gameplan was to keep playing, that mistakes were factored in to England's tactics as they have been since EJ first calme in, all in the name of competition. It wasn't about penalties this time, not about over-competing at the breakdown and allowing Itoje or the backrowers a 3-4 penalty grace for ruthless aggression, it was about pressure with ball in hand...and maybe that wasn't quite the right tactic. Or, at least, it wasn't solely the correct tactic. I think Eddie has to take the flak for naivety of tactics - Gatland got his tactics spot on and that saw Wales claw their way in to a game where they had even less physical power than England did, where they were hammered at each and every contact, but chipped away, kept close, and really could have beaten SA in the last 10 minutes. England...you just feel they tried to blow them away again. The AI game was relevant once more as a blueprint for the grinding, physical game that, really, SA did enough to win - a penalty with 3 minutes to go hit the post, and then ofc the shoulder charge. I did say before the game, NZ beat England by 1 point and were subsequently complacent against them, focusing too much on the Irish (where SA didn't look to blow the Japanese away in the first half, for instance) instead as they'd lost to them. Well there's a case to be made that England did likewise agaisnt SA having beaten them by a point last autumn - the belief that *this* was the true England team, and that they just had to turn up, play their game, and SA would be put to the sword because they're not as good as NZ.

It's hard to say but, ultimately, England didn't/couldn't adapt the tactics. Like every team, they ultimately looked too rigid and programmed to fail when the lose - Ireland abslutely do, Australia and NZ looked naive running it from everywhere in the games they lost, Wales looked bereft of a wide game in the SF, and now England failed to mix it up against SA. Which...is frustrating to see as a neutral, because they DO have all the ability and talents, they did seem to have the complete tactical game (set piece, varied kicking game, strike running game) yet didn't utilise those kicks when it would possibly have made a world of difference. England kicked the leather off everything in 18/19 and the season before, and had mixed but sometimes great success. I cannot understand why they didn't kick more against SA, just drill the ball in hard and low and get the SA pack RUNNING. Get them moving, keep them moving. Just keep kicking and kicking for 5-10 minutes unless an opportunity opens up. SA will kick back, so just keep them down there, keep them moving. Again, another tactic Gatland got right, you feel, where EJ perhaps didn't.

Utimately, maybe England simply didn't play this way and felt too much risk to break the gameplan or adapt on the field themselves because of what you say - a lack of leadership and not getting it right when it matters. But that's in the players as well, not just Eddie. Was there a co-captain with Farrell out there today? Was there a forward who could confer and help share the load with Farrell, giving the brains of what's happening in the tight, the effect that has, and devising tactics around that? Again, it's no individual, and it's not just Farrell, but it's huge, huge pressure to ask you #10 to both dictate play and be captain, and it felt England probably played less effectively and intelligently with Farrell at 10 than they did with Ford. The issue wasn't options for England in the first 50 minutes, it was accuracy as much as anything. From there, England chased the scoreboard, and so you're right, England ultimately didn't play close to their potential and SA picked them off and grew in to the game - even having given England a few 'outs' through 6 easy kicked points - while England tried overplaying and running the ball with menace, but a bit frantically.

It was always a tough ask for England to win this game, this tournament, and I just think they came up against a side that has proven their quality in the last 12 months, coached by and outstanding coach, and didn't have enough time and tactics in the tank to specifically deal with a side that was there to beat them up up front. If there's been a failing in the last 20 years, particularly post-2003, it's not being able to win games of rugby without forward parity or dominance. Robinson and Johnson didn't have the forwards for it and so suffered, and Lancaster naively underpowered his at the wrong time. As for losing pressure games, there might be something in that, but I think the 6Ns games come down to what I described above - England need to find an emotional response to that, which they invariably cannot for cultural reasons, in which case they need to take emotion right out of it like the ABs. Cut the externals out and just treat it like the game it is - easier said than done. This has been the first WC where England were really one of the top dogs and had pedigree to match the hype, but when the dust settles we'll see them in their true place; they were favourites for this game, but not massive favourites, and having beaten NZ so well and dispatched Oz efficiently, they've got more of the big games right than not. This didnt feel like 'bottling' it as much as it felt like not preparing well enough. At least to me. We'll see how this impacts the team in the next 2 years, but there's no reason they have to go back to being also-rans or missing out on 6Ns again.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 5:46 pm

I demand the game is replayed in a couple of weeks, I will be contacting a Scottish court on monday.
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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 5:52 pm

Old Man wrote:
miaow wrote:
protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Agree, Rassie and his team went completely under the radar, the loss vs NZ moved them out of contention in many peoples minds. His game plan were criticized from all over, yet when it came to each of his knock out opponents he had a plan. No ody noticed, they were to busy criticizing him and fawning over brilliant performances such as NZ vs Ireland and England over Australia and NZ.

I know. It's as if people didn't actually watch the NZ game - Eddie Jones did, you can guarantee that. He saw NZ could be squeezed and did exactly that - not saying that game alone influenced their game, it obviously didn't, but the signs of both teams' qualities were there, and as I said at the time, it felt like SA were sounding NZ out for a repeat in the final. SA dominated the game in terms of the basics and field position, it was one absolute counter attack, and one impressive sustained period of hand thats led to a break on halfway, that won NZ the game - a quick one-two. In a final, would that happen that way again? Not so sure. I think Rassie was preparing to beat NZ in the final but got England instead and still had enough in his gameplan, enough adaptability, to beat them, despite England posing very different threats.

I'm not sure people knew enough about Erasmus before the tournament. Didn't really consider him on par with Eddie, Gatland, or Steve Hansen. There's no doubt he's a rugby genius.

You also have to give credit to Felix Jones and other NH-based coaches within the SA set up. Erasmus obviously didn't fall in to the siege mentality trap that some of our Kiwi brethren display on this site, of acting like there's a line you cannot cross around the equator. I said it in the match thread, but at times, SA's carrying, contact, and breakdown work looked almost EXACTLY like Schmidt's Ireland. His experiences with Munster will have helped massively as well, and taking the elements of expertise and speciality that exist in each part of the world where available to him proved a wise decision. SA ultimately played a game that suited them, that they could play better than any other, and had fewer 'parts' to be exploited, fewer elements that could go wrong. They also got the micro details spot on in this game and though they were far from perfect themselves, they didn't need to be.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 6:17 pm

Loving the enthusiastic England fan on the news who was watching the game live in the stadium and singing as she went in “Ohhhh Mario Itoje”

Gotta love young Mario eh laughing
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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 6:20 pm

miaow wrote:
Old Man wrote:
miaow wrote:
protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Agree, Rassie and his team went completely under the radar, the loss vs NZ moved them out of contention in many peoples minds. His game plan were criticized from all over, yet when it came to each of his knock out opponents he had a plan. No ody noticed, they were to busy criticizing him and fawning over brilliant performances such as NZ vs Ireland and England over Australia and NZ.

I know. It's as if people didn't actually watch the NZ game - Eddie Jones did, you can guarantee that. He saw NZ could be squeezed and did exactly that - not saying that game alone influenced their game, it obviously didn't, but the signs of both teams' qualities were there, and as I said at the time, it felt like SA were sounding NZ out for a repeat in the final. SA dominated the game in terms of the basics and field position, it was one absolute counter attack, and one impressive sustained period of hand thats led to a break on halfway, that won NZ the game - a quick one-two. In a final, would that happen that way again? Not so sure. I think Rassie was preparing to beat NZ in the final but got England instead and still had enough in his gameplan, enough adaptability, to beat them, despite England posing very different threats.

I'm not sure people knew enough about Erasmus before the tournament. Didn't really consider him on par with Eddie, Gatland, or Steve Hansen. There's no doubt he's a rugby genius.

You also have to give credit to Felix Jones and other NH-based coaches within the SA set up. Erasmus obviously didn't fall in to the siege mentality trap that some of our Kiwi brethren display on this site, of acting like there's a line you cannot cross around the equator. I said it in the match thread, but at times, SA's carrying, contact, and breakdown work looked almost EXACTLY like Schmidt's Ireland. His experiences with Munster will have helped massively as well, and taking the elements of expertise and speciality that exist in each part of the world where available to him proved a wise decision. SA ultimately played a game that suited them, that they could play better than any other, and had fewer 'parts' to be exploited, fewer elements that could go wrong. They also got the micro details spot on in this game and though they were far from perfect themselves, they didn't need to be.

Rassie did mention he grew a lot as a coach at Munster, and after Swys de Bruyn had to leave the Springbok coaching set up due to personal family reasons, Rassie didn’t hesitate to call on Felix Jones as he worked with him in Ireland.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 6:44 pm

Congratulations to SA – worthy winners.

As for England – what a missed opportunity. With the top maybe 4 sides being so close, and no side(s) head & shoulder better than the rest - unlike in the past, England had as good a chance as any.

I read here someone saying they didn’t think many of the 2003 side would get into the current side. Au contraire I’d say, you didn’t take fully into account what’s in their heads. I remember Neil Back saying after the final then, that there wasn’t a single moment in the game that he didn’t think England were going to win (and that’s in a game that went to the last minute). They were a little past their best but their sheer doggedness and confidence helped pull them through. I wonder how many of the current players have that mental strength. Given their recent track record – very few. I guess, it’s something very hard to coach.
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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:07 pm

Should have picked out big lumps to start, launchbury and kruis Marler and Wilson.
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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:12 pm

Then you have the issue of the SA'n bench TH. Equally big.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:32 pm

I think doggedness did have a place to play in this but it would be hard to pick too many of those players. To be fair 1 or 2 in hindsight would have made a difference.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:56 pm

England obviously had a game plan going in to this game, but what impact did the injury to Kyle Sinckler have on that game plan.

Did England not have a plan b? was it a question see how we go from here?

Is Farrell the only leader in the team? was there no co captain to day some one who could help try and change how England was playing?

I just hope the players will from this game/RWC, and take it forward in to the 6ns and beyond.

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:01 pm

Eddie Jones said Sincklers injury didn’t have a big impact, he couldn’t explain why they didn’t perform though. I think he was being disingenuous though, South Africa were more physical and England struggled to get on the front foot.

Also the much vaunted tactical kicking of England were very well dealt with by South Africa’s back three including also Duane Vermeulen who were superb.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:05 pm

miaow wrote:
protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

And no, rugby is not that simple, it has rules that are complex and difficult to manage relative to other sports. England also had to beat three completely different styles in beating the SH 3, and could only manage two. That is why they had the toughest run into winning this.

They beat a singly one dimensional Oz, they beat a NZ side by strangling their time and space and they couldn’t get close to matching the power game of the Boks, and while you were saying England are ‘ok’, ‘they’re not looking under pressure’ etc etc during the match they were being torn apart in every facet of the game, something everyone else but you were seeing.

Honestly, you’re analysis of this game is in fairyland. You keep correcting others with imaginary or waffly theories that dont stand up. That is how you end up in the state you do, ‘I’m being picked on’ ...well yeah, deservedly so.


Last edited by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:08 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Whether they did or not, I suspect in future finals (if we make them) we might not be as much under the radar as this RWC

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:12 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
protea438 wrote:Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Not everything is about you, personally.

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