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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by msp83 Sun 30 Jul 2023, 2:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wood's pace was not quite up there in that first over though he still was quick. The lengths weren't great. Fine half-century from Khawaja who is closing in on regaining the top-scorer position from Crawley for the series.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 26 Sep 2023, 2:56 pm

I don't like criticising groundsmen... But that wasn't the most professional performance at getting the covers on from the County Ground Laugh

Hopefully it blows through quickly as the forecast suggests but it's hammering down.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 26 Sep 2023, 3:23 pm

Match abandoned. That's a bit of a farce, all told, for some rain that was expected to blow through inside an hour.

Poor from everyone concerned.

But somehow fitting that a wet summer meets a wet end.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 26 Sep 2023, 8:48 pm

It had started raining hard again from what the Sky comms were saying. Getting the covers on did, unavoidably, look village though. A flat groundsheet being pulled onto the actual strip, that just blew up and didn't protect the pitch. Meanwhile three wheelie covers chained together, hence massive gaps between, were slowly and a bit haphazardly pushed over the strip. Puddles amassing all the while. I'm a massive supporter of England games going to more grounds. I really hate Lords getting two Tests many summers for that reason. Also because I just don't think it's a very good ground or fan experience from my visits. The ECB need to support the smaller grounds that get ODIs with funding for things such as larger ground staff on matchday and hover covers though. Otherwise these scenes will happen.

When I looked into it previously hover covers were about £100k. They don't need to give one to every ground though. Surely they could arrange loaning one from another ground even? It was rather frustrating to watch. Even if it may not have made a difference if it had started raining heavily again.

In terms of longer term England selection. Duckett a obvious winner from the play available across a rain ravaged series. I think he flourish in that 4 spot if Stokes presumably moves on from ODI cricket after the world cup.

Jacks may well have done enough to get himself a CWC reserve spot after Roy turned down the chance to prove his fitness. Jacks is also a significantly better fielder than several in the 15-man squad...

Hain looked a bit lacking for power at 5 coming in with things flying. He played a couple of ugly shots trying to up the tempo with one of taking his wicket. I think he'll struggle to bat in the middle order with how England play. He could be a reasonable reserve for Root at 3? Even then I could see England going down a three openers path similar to Jaiswal, Rohit and Gill in India's top 3. It would allow them to keep going hard in the PP.

Carse continued to look good in the middle overs and Rehan impressed with the ball in the one opportunity the bowlers got.

Ireland wise. Craig Young bowled really well in both games. Whilst it was really nice to see Dockrell bowling again after he gave it up for a long time.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 29 Sep 2023, 6:49 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/66964068

Stuart Broad is getting the Pavilion End at Trent Bridge named after him. Beautiful and fully deserved.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 03 Oct 2023, 10:59 pm

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/liam-dawson-could-turn-down-test-recall-sa20-deal-1400949

A situation that again highlights an issue with how England's central contracts are structured. If you've got the full contract then you are golden. They are big contracts. Realistically to earn more on the T20 circuit than a centrally contracted England player does in a year you'd need to be one of the most sought after global stars. Even if you fall out of favour then you're still contracted and there are parachute payments for the first year after losing a central contract. Guys like Jimmy and Broad playing for so long whilst being one format players and very well paid for it is a rare luxury now.

For the the players outside central contracts but still in the frame, on increment deals, it's a completely different story.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 04 Oct 2023, 11:56 am

king_carlos wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/liam-dawson-could-turn-down-test-recall-sa20-deal-1400949

A situation that again highlights an issue with how England's central contracts are structured. If you've got the full contract then you are golden. They are big contracts. Realistically to earn more on the T20 circuit than a centrally contracted England player does in a year you'd need to be one of the most sought after global stars. Even if you fall out of favour then you're still contracted and there are parachute payments for the first year after losing a central contract. Guys like Jimmy and Broad playing for so long whilst being one format players and very well paid for it is a rare luxury now.

For the the players outside central contracts but still in the frame, on increment deals, it's a completely different story.

It is definitely a wider issue, but in this case it notes his SA deal is $150k and playing in India for England would net him roughly $100k - I'd be pretty disappointed if a potential England player turned down the opportunity to play in such a high profile series for the sake of, what is a relatively small difference in money, all things considered (it's not like he'll have been poorly paid for his career to date!). It's not even like it's to go and play the IPL either...
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Post by Duty281 Fri 13 Oct 2023, 2:31 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/67023224

Cook's retired.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Oct 2023, 9:00 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/67196886

Central contracts announced with the new structures, longer deals.

Three-year contracts: Harry Brook, Joe Root, Mark Wood

Two-year contracts: Rehan Ahmed, Jofra Archer, Gus Atkinson, Jonny Bairstow, Jos Buttler, Brydon Carse, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Ben Duckett, Liam Livingstone, Ollie Pope, Matthew Potts, Adil Rashid, Josh Tongue, Chris Woakes

One-year contracts: Moeen Ali, James Anderson, Ben Foakes, Jack Leach, Dawid Malan, Ollie Robinson, Ben Stokes, Reece Topley

Development contract: Matthew Fisher, Saqib Mahmood, John Turner

Interesting bits I'd pick out from it:

No one rejected a deal outright.

Apparently Stokes turned down the three-year contract as he feels he will be able to negotiate a better deal next year when the latest broadcast rights are negotiated. I'd guess that's Stokes feeling that the increased interest from Bazball will lead to a bigger rights deal? Literally money where your mouth is then.

Buttler and Archer were offered three-year deals but signed two-year ones. I think understandable for both to keep options open there. Jof has had all the injury woes of course. Whilst Jos will be 35 at the end of a two-year deal.

Interesting to see Dilly in the two-year bracket as well. Still by a distance England's best white ball bowler but he's had a few shoulder injuries and I do think it shows at times. Both in his bowling and certainly fielding.

No deal for David Willey. Unlikely to be a confidence boost whilst in the CWC squad...

No contract for Olly Stone. He was on the development deal last year but has been released along with Overton x 2. Despite the injuries and being 30 I still feel Stone is a talent worth keeping on one of the development contracts reserved for pace bowlers. He's got skills that few English bowlers show.

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Post by alfie Wed 25 Oct 2023, 4:33 am

Agree about Stone. Hope he doesn't end up fizzling out as he definitely showed promise.

One or two on that list are logically included but you wonder how much they will actually play given injury records. Overall I can see why Rob Key is pleased that he's been able to get the commitment from that large group of players. As he says , this is going to be the world of the future with all the private leagues operating.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Oct 2023, 9:39 am

It is very good to see the ECB and Key be out ahead on this sort of thinking when it comes to contracts - of course it comes with risks (especially that Wood, three year one!) but you'd hope this will help in staving off some of the interest from franchise cricket, especially those rumours going around recently of them looking to sign players to long term deals and only release them to international games/duty when it fits.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 12 Nov 2023, 9:08 pm

Squads for the hotly anticipated white ball tour in the Windies.

Beeb wrote:ODI squad: Jos Buttler (captain - Lancashire), Rehan Ahmed (Leicestershire), Gus Atkinson (Surrey), Harry Brook (Yorkshire), Brydon Carse (Durham), Zak Crawley (Kent), Sam Curran (Surrey), Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire), Tom Hartley (Lancashire), Will Jacks (Surrey), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Ollie Pope (Surrey), Phil Salt (Lancashire), Josh Tongue (Nottinghamshire), John Turner (Hampshire)

T20 squad: Jos Buttler (captain - Lancashire), Rehan Ahmed (Leicestershire), Moeen Ali (Warwickshire), Gus Atkinson (Surrey), Harry Brook (Yorkshire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire), Will Jacks (Surrey), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Tymal Mills (Sussex), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Phil Salt (Lancashire), Josh Tongue (Nottinghamshire), Reece Topley (Surrey), John Turner (Hampshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)

Tons of guys rested of course. Malan not included in either is perhaps a headline. Livi remains after a really poor tournament.

Really happy to see Rehan backed in both.

Potential ODI XI:

1.Salt 2.Jacks 3.Crawley 4.Duckett 5.Brook 6.Buttler 7.Curran 8.Rehan 9.Carse 10.Atkinson 11.Tongue

I quite like the idea of moving to a 'backup opener' at number 3 then a middle overs specialist at 4. In the build up to 2019 we had an abundance of middle overs batters so Root at 3 made perfect sense. It feels like we have more top order players now so I think basically having three openers to attack the PP hard makes more sense.

With Pope in the squad I'd guess they may be looking at Crawley opening with Salt, Pope at 3, then Jacks further down though. Which I don't hate. I just think if Jacks is going to play ODIs that letting him attack the PP is the best bet.

Potential T20 XI:

1.Buttler 2.Jacks 3.Salt 4.Duckett 5.Brook 6.Livingstone/Moeen 7.Curran 8.Rehan 9.Dilly 10.Atkinson 11.Topley

With a World T20 defence to worry about this will be the more important part of the series. I'm really hoping Dilly and Rehan are used in tandem. If Atkinson continues to be used I hope it's top and tailing in the PP and death as I think that suits him.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 12 Nov 2023, 9:28 pm

Squad selection is all a bit of a mess, with plenty of players getting rested, while others may have been dropped completely. Buttler retaining the captaincy for both sides seems a pretty clear signal of intent in that regard.

I was disappointed to hear Archer has suffered another setback, and is out of the tour completely. Starting to wonder if he'll ever play again, never mind just be a T20 player.

As far as I can see, England have got 9 T20s before the World Cup (5 in the West Indies and 4 at home v Pakistan), then presumably a warm-up game or two in the Caribbean before the main event. This upcoming World Cup might be where Rehan establishes himself as England's number one limited-overs spinner over Rashid.

The ODIs are just around the corner (three weeks time), and then England don't play another ODI until September. So not much preparation before the Champions Trophy in February 2025 (if it goes ahead, and if it doesn't get turned into a T20 competition or circus event).

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Post by alfie Mon 13 Nov 2023, 4:24 am

With the very limited number of white ball games scheduled over the next year it is hard to judge what England are considering in terms of "refreshing" their first choice squads...and also to see just how they are going to do that with so few opportunities to test out new combinations...

These selections look reasonable enough in that they are resting the multi-format players (all except Brook) who were active recently , while letting other Test players who haven't had any action get a run out . Dual purpose in that it gives the likes of Crawley and Pope some time in the middle as well as seeing how they might adapt to the shorter versions at International level. t20 squad looks closer to an intended WC one which also makes sense.

Malan being left out of both surprises me just a little. I'd have expected him to be retained for the t20 , like Moeen. But I guess it isn't necessarily him totally binned :may be just want a proper workout for Jacks/Salt/Duckett.

Glad to see Rehan Ahmed included. And a couple of new faces. Think Livingstone might need to put in some serious efforts after his very disappointing WC or he may slide down the food chain...

One question might be how much playing West Indies will mean in the larger world : but to be fair their white ball sides (despite that embarrassing failure to get to the 50 over WC) should be reasonable opposition - especially the t20.

Don't think I will be getting up at 3am to watch these games though Smile

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 13 Nov 2023, 10:14 am

Do Malan/Moeen have t20 franchise commitments that clash? I am not stunned both are not picked...we kinda know what they both offer at this point, and like you have all mentioned, this series more about giving some of the "next generation" a look.

Happy Buttler is being kept on personally - yes a rough time of it in this World Cup, but he captained superbly in the t20 stuff last year and hasn't exactly had a great run of games to get to grips with ODI captaincy. Was worried they may throw the baby out with the bathwater with Jos, but fortunately still see him as a key component going forward
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Post by GSC Mon 13 Nov 2023, 10:21 am

Mo got picked for the T20 stuff didn't he? Think he's just ushered out of the ODI scene.

Only thing I'd quibble with Jos is maybe it's better to hand over the gloves. His batting looked like it frazzled his keeping and captaincy
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 13 Nov 2023, 10:35 am

GSC wrote:Mo got picked for the T20 stuff didn't he? Think he's just ushered out of the ODI scene.

Only thing I'd quibble with Jos is maybe it's better to hand over the gloves. His batting looked like it frazzled his keeping and captaincy

Wouldn't be against that either GSC - Salt can keep competently, plus Jos is an amazing outfielder too when he does do it.

Could really do with Jacks establishing himself in both XIs...not only from a batting perspective, but he would add that valuable bowling option in the top six, which we did lack in this tournament. Plus again, a great fielder in the deep too
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Post by alfie Mon 13 Nov 2023, 12:22 pm

Yes Moeen is in the t20 , just not the ODI. Reasonable enough ; but as with Malan I'm not sure we need to see him as much as some of the other spin/bat options so hope his inclusion doesn't keep , say , Ahmed on the bench.

Didn't expect a change of captain : Jos indeed logically carries on to the t20 WC after leading the team successfully for the last one ; and no point in having different leaders in all three formats. I would question whether it will be in his or England's best interests for him to remain skipper in the 50 over stuff further forward - but I think that issue can wait for a later date.

Would indeed be nice to see Jacks stake a claim. Might be a better option than Livingstone or Moeen for that extra spin bowler who can fill a batting position.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 13 Nov 2023, 1:33 pm

I'm also happy that Buttler has been backed. His captaincy was very good in the World T20. It is interesting that Salt kept whilst Buttler captained the Manchester Originals though. Salt's a decent keeper, very talented opener and Buttler is terrific in the field as Olly says.

I think Mo makes sense for T20s still. It's his best format, he can float up and down the order, hit from ball one when needed and is destructive against spin. He's also a leftie in an increasingly right-handed looking team.

Malan is a tougher one. He was England's top run scorer here in a disastrous campaign but obviously wont make the next CWC. Then in T20s his form did fall off a cliff, he got dropped by Trent Rockets because he could barely get them off the square. I'd probably ere towards backing Jack, Salt and even Brooks as an opener ahead of Malan in the top order heading towards the World T20.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 13 Nov 2023, 9:32 pm

king_carlos wrote:


Malan is a tougher one. He was England's top run scorer here in a disastrous campaign but obviously wont make the next CWC. Then in T20s his form did fall off a cliff, he got dropped by Trent Rockets because he could barely get them off the square. I'd probably ere towards backing Jack, Salt and even Brooks as an opener ahead of Malan in the top order heading towards the World T20.

Hi Carlos - some similarities between Malan and Willey.

Both had a reasonable World Cup. Bl**dy marvellous compared to most of their teammates.

Neither appear to have an England future, not even a short term one.

However, the striking difference is that Malan has a one year central contract whilst Willey is already out on his ear. Can you or anyone explain that?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 14 Nov 2023, 1:03 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
king_carlos wrote:


Malan is a tougher one. He was England's top run scorer here in a disastrous campaign but obviously wont make the next CWC. Then in T20s his form did fall off a cliff, he got dropped by Trent Rockets because he could barely get them off the square. I'd probably ere towards backing Jack, Salt and even Brooks as an opener ahead of Malan in the top order heading towards the World T20.

Hi Carlos - some similarities between Malan and Willey.

Both had a reasonable World Cup. Bl**dy marvellous compared to most of their teammates.

Neither appear to have an England future, not even a short term one.

However, the striking difference is that Malan has a one year central contract whilst Willey is already out on his ear. Can you or anyone explain that?

Have to admit Guildford, while I think it is fantastic that England have gone towards offering multi-year central contracts...some of the decisions on players who got them were a bit baffling to me. What has Livingstone done in the past 24 months to merit a two year deal? I am stunned that Carse got a two year deal too.
Jacks not getting one, would concern me with franchises sniffing around...
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Post by king_carlos Tue 14 Nov 2023, 3:33 pm

Malan on a one-year deal makes some sense given he's still around the T20 side and there's a World T20 next year. He got dropped in the tournament but Hales has retired since then whilst Bairstow and Stokes can barely move.

Especially if Bairstow is struggling in the field as much as he is. With how important fielding is now I think there are genuine questions over his out fielding. It isn't at end stage Chris Gayle levels where his lack of trying seemed like an in joke with some teammates but Bairstow and Stokes were two of the less mobile fielders we saw over this tournament. Which given where they used to be is both sad and frustrating to see.

Willey didn't play a game in last years World T20 even with seamers dropping like flies. I do think there are better options in that format. He's really an ODI specialist for England and I don't think it's unreasonable to look towards 2027 there.

Livingstone's two-year deal looks increasingly generous. I rate Livi and sung his praises before the tournament. He wasn't trusted with the ball and flattered to deceive with the bat in 50 over. I'd definitely still have him around the T20 side. His batting suits that lower middle order 'finisher' role well. He can genuinely strike big early and is fantastic at doing so against pace, which is of course useful at the death. With how poor he was this tournament a one-year deal for the World T20 would've made more sense. The same as Mo and Malan really.

The danger of long term contracts will always be this discussion though. On the balance of evils I'd rather be discussing borderline cases of whether contracted players shouldn't have contracts compared to discussing cases of players who should be available but opt out. Which is going to be the reality very soon now that the ILT20 and SA20 are paying massive wages alongside the IPL.

I've mentioned it quite a few times but until those two tournaments a 'franchise player' would've needed to be at the ABdV, Rashid Khan, Pollard, DreRuss, etc level and play basically every comp to earn more than the ECB deals. The central contracts are huge and for players that don't get pummelled in all three formats represent a decent workload. Anderson and Broad probably earned more than a one format player from any other country could make for instance. I'd be shocked if Pujara for instance has earned more. Lyon has undoubtedly made far less. Similar for Morgan, Dilly and Roy as white ball specialists. Plus the central contract is guaranteed if you get injured, has generous parachute payments at county level after you lose it. Being an England player firstly with a secondary IPL top up for part of the tournament was by a distance the best financial offer. With the SA20 and ILT20 that's very suddenly shifted though. Each are only a month long with mental money involved and basically get you playing in IPL feeder teams. The ECBs option was long term deals or losing players. Some players being on questionable contracts is the downside but the upsides far outweigh the creeping feeling that Livi isn't going to be more than a T20 finisher with the bat.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 17 Nov 2023, 4:04 pm

Changes for the 2024 County Championship include the Kookaburra ball being used for four rounds of fixtures, doubled from 2023. Apparently it will increase the number of overs of spin bowled. Another change is for the draw to go back to being worth eight points, having been cut to five for 2023. Guessing that initial change didn't work.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 17 Nov 2023, 5:04 pm

I'm pretty sure there was a stat at one point during the summer just gone that the bowling averages for seamers actually dropped when they used the Kookaburra. The new Kookaburra with the reinforced seam has moved much more. It's made a massive difference in the white ball gam in terms of swing and seam. The wobble ball is moving way more with the red Kookaburra now too. The majority of bowlers now use the wobble seam as their stock delivery so that hard seam on English wickets should do plenty. Given they are made rock hard to start to survive Aussie wickets I'd guess that seam might stay pretty proud in England too.

Changing to different balls in the CC has been done a fair bit and usually without the desired result. Going way back pre wobble ball, they switched to Tiflex and Readers believing they swing less. The Tiflex in particular were absolute boomerangs, in the pros hands swung so much even the bowlers were getting upset with trying to control it.

Given we know that different batches of Dukes move so differently I often wish the ECB would put funding towards Dukes just making a batch that will intentionally move less if that's the intended result. When Vaughan and Fletcher were in charge they found batches that reversed more. Flower and Strauss looked for batches that moved relatively little then played on a fair few roads to favour their accurate seamers and Swann. Then as Jimmy and Broad became big voices there was a period where they were using Dukes that swung conventionally for 60+ overs. It's clearly possible to get Dukes doing very different things (i.e. the not second new ball but brand new replacement ball at the Oval... Whistle )  but seems to happen largely by accident, then the players will opt for balls from previous years that they liked. Given that using other makes has often not worked I just think it'd be better to put more funding towards that.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 23 Nov 2023, 11:54 am

Stokes to skip the 2024 IPL to "manage his workload and fitness". Seems a smart move, will get some more rest between the end of the India series and the start of the home summer
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Post by Jetty Fri 24 Nov 2023, 1:19 am

Potts replaces the injured Tongue. Don't know what the injury is but happened in the UAE.

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Post by alfie Sat 25 Nov 2023, 8:22 am

Unfortunate for Tongue, who hopefully won't be set back too badly by this injury; but on the other hand I am pleased to see Potts getting another opportunity to show his wares. With so many of England's (currently plentiful)list of pace bowlers either nearing retirement or at least in the latter part of their careers - and/or very injury prone - the more these younger fellows get exposure the better . I rather liked what I saw of Potts in 2022 so hope he kicks on...

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Post by king_carlos Sat 25 Nov 2023, 2:16 pm

I rate Potts but have honestly not seen him bowl with a white ball outside of his brief ODI apps where I didn't think he seemed massively suited. More 'traditional' seamers with very good seam presentation can thrive in the ODI game with the two new balls and the new, reinforced Kookaburra. Shami showed that beautifully at this tournament. Matt Henry has been one of the best around for a couple of years. I can't say that Potts has struck me as someone who might thrive in one day cricket though.

I think he could be a very useful part of a Test bowling unit though. I'm hoping we can get 2 or 3 more home summers out of Woakes by managing his workload. With Broad retired, Jimmy well over 40 and Woakes not getting younger the Test side needs younger seamers settling. The talent is there. Potts, Tongue, Atkinson, Fisher, Turner. Mahmood if he can get fit. Maybe Porter as a home specialist - the pitches they opt for might impact that. Potts has that bit more Test exposure and success.

Robinson should be absolutely brilliant but needs to get and stay fit. He was a massive frustration in the Ashes. I expected him to be England's most potent weapon. With that high release, accuracy and impeccable wobble ball he should be. Instead he looked back to early Test career Robinson where he was simply out of shape.

I don't think Surran is done as a Test cricketer yet either. Especially if Stokes can't bowl.

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Post by Jetty Sun 26 Nov 2023, 12:44 am

Some are injured, near retirement, some better in one form ... lots of bowlers to cover for injuries in all forms. Anderson will be gone soon and see the bowling being Robinson and Tongue opening for Tests.

Tests - Anderson (183), Woakes (48), Wood (31), Robinson (19) Archer (13), Potts (6), Stone (3), Mahmood (2), Tongue (2), Carse (0), Lawes (0)

ODIs - Woakes (122), Topley (29), Archer (21),  Carse (12), Mahmood (8), Atkinson (6), Scrimshaw (1), Turner (0)

T20s - Jordan (88), Curran (41), Woakes (29), MWood (28), Topley (22), Archer (15), Mills (12), Gleeson (6), LWood (5), Carse (3), Atkinson (2), Turner (0)

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