The Haka - how would you handle it?

Thought I would start a thread on the most recognisable rugby tradition in the world and how other teams have decided to react to it.

The Haka is seen as a challenge laid open to the opponents and there have been some famous acceptances of this challenge over the years:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Ireland - Willie Anderson brings his team up to the Haka. This has since been outlawed with fines for encroaching within 10 metres.

Scotland - Chris Hoy brings on the match ball. Err......very confrontational!

There are others of course like England in 97 and France in 2007, as well as the ABs refusal to come out on the pitch to do the Haka in Wales

So the question is - how would you like your team to face the challenge and what have been your favourites?

Pretty much as Wallace and Co did Edward Longshanks in Braveheart

I thought the Welsh response was enough. It wasn't disrespectful and it made the atmosphere electric....then we got hammered anyway

Stand there, let them do the Haka and start the game.

Hobo wrote:
Ireland - Willie Anderson brings his team up to the Haka. This has since been outlawed with fines for encroaching within 10 metres.

Did France not do that in the RWC macth in 2007? I thought that was a brilliant move.

Yeah I agree with Stag. I thought the Welsh response was superb though but it would have been better if they'd backed it up with the performance!

Willie Anderson leading the team forward was awesome and Cockerill did something similar.

The England fans singing GTSQ is a disgrace as is booing. The haka is superb tradition and any response should meet it with the respect it deserves.

It's probably best not to respond the was the Lions did in 2005 though as BOD found out!

The Irish U20s did it at the JWC in Japan in 2009 as well. Nigel Starmer-Smith was disgusted. I mean really disgusted. He spent the next fifteen minutes talking about almost nothing else. When there was a lull in the match he brought it up again.

I can't remember the exact quote but he said that it's was awful, disrespectful and that you shouldn't stand up in front of someone when they're laying down the challenge...?????

But, yeah, just get the hell on with it. It's a great spectacle, the fans love it, but there's something wrong with us if we're more interested in the response to Haka than the game itself.

Hobo wrote:
Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

IMHO what the welsh did was more disrespectful as it involved the players plus the crowd sang as well, and it was a no score draw as the Ref told both teams to get on with it, I was there and it was a rather sad spectacle

Why does everyone enjoy bashing England?


Just get on with it.!

greybeard wrote:The Irish U20s did it at the JWC in Japan in 2009 as well. Nigel Starmer-Smith was disgusted. I mean really disgusted. He spent the next fifteen minutes talking about almost nothing else. When there was a lull in the match he brought it up again.

I can't remember the exact quote but he said that it's was awful, disrespectful and that you shouldn't stand up in front of someone when they're laying down the challenge...?????

But, yeah, just get the hell on with it. It's a great spectacle, the fans love it, but there's something wrong with us if we're more interested in the response to Haka than the game itself.

Cant really understand what he was disgusted about its a challenge, so whats wrong with taking up that challenge?

Funnily enough I did just watch again and the crowd were very vocal.

The ref did tell both teams to break but the ABs did it ifrst (by about 3 seconds )

Video of Wales v ABs Haka in spoiler tag.

Spoiler:

I respect the way NZ play rugby - not their pointless attempt to gain an advantage. If it was all about tradition they wouldn't have changed it so many times. If they insist on wasting time with an extra challenge - just stand there or chat amongst yourselves and then get on with it.

by about 3 seconds!


Wow!

In my view it was an arrogant OTT reaction to the HAKA one of the greatest sporting traditions still around and thank god it’s in our sport.

It will be a sad day if the all blacks decide to only do this behind closed doors due to team’s actions like this.

Enjoy it for what it is a bunch of grown muscular men doing a dance!!!


They only change it as the Maoris have more than one dance up their sleeves!

BATH_BTGOG wrote: the HAKA one of the greatest sporting traditions still around and thank god it’s in our sport.

It will be a sad day if the all blacks decide to only do this behind closed doors due to team’s actions like this.

Agree in full.

One of the greatest sights in world sport - Stand there, face them and applaud afterwards and get on with the game. It's a great tradition, if you think it gives them an edge then you have a problem. Respect it.

red_stag wrote:

BATH_BTGOG wrote: the HAKA one of the greatest sporting traditions still around and thank god it’s in our sport.

It will be a sad day if the all blacks decide to only do this behind closed doors due to team’s actions like this.

Agree in full.

Me too. The haka makes the hairs on your neck stand up. I can't understand why anyone would want to rid the game of it.

The Munster Haka at Thomond was one of the most amazing things I've seen in sport in recent years. Incredible.

My first international match I went to was Ireland v New Zealand. I remember in Lansdowne Road looking at Umaga and Lomu waiting for match to start when they initiated the haka and the whole stadium just lit up with flashes from cameras. Incredible thousands of flashes taking this in it was like strobe lighting and you could actually hear the words even up in the stands. Amazing experience and certainly one that has stayed with me. One of my favourite rugby moments as a nipper.

I'm fairly indifferent about the Haka, but it should be respected the same as other customs.

It only gives an advantage to the side doing it if you let it intimidate you or get annoyed by it.

As others have said, just stand there let them do it and then beat them (ok, the last bit needs some work!)

I'd stand there, waiting for them to finish, then, as the atmosphere builds as neither team backs down, me and the rest of the team starts doing a perfectly timed and choreographed running man.

Id gather my troops together and do the Hokey Cokey right back at them!
you put your left leg in
you put your left led out
in out in out
you shake it all about

I absolutley love it too, I must admit I was not fond of the Welsh response.

Its nice to see the teams nose to nose and the intensity building between the 2 teams, long may it continue.

RubyGuby wrote:One of the greatest sights in world sport - Stand there, face them and applaud afterwards and get on with the game. It's a great tradition, if you think it gives them an edge then you have a problem. Respect it.

I love the haka.

I only have to think back to the 1995 RWC final and how Kobus Wiese stood firm on the halfway line, standing shoulder to shoulder with his teammates staring down the Haka, with expressionless faces.

It shows you respect the haka, but are not intimidated by it.

Great tradition and long may it continue.

I'm told it's a greeting and a challenge. OK. Fair enough.

Bunch of blokes group up, dance, pull faces, shout and make curious gestures. Fine. Just before kickoff you stand around passively while they wind themselves up and then quick as possible start the game. Ok. Great theatre, nicely contrived edge (don't tell me that didn't occur to Shelford cos I won't believe you).

Make the break between the end of the Haka and the start of the game as long as reasonably possible. I feel the opposing captain should make a point of thanking the ABs for their challenge and show the host team's acceptance of that challenge by shaking hands in acceptance. We should perhaps have a small girl come on to give the lead dancer flowers. Culturally, that's how we do things up here and I think it would be appropriate and unimpeachably polite. Then we could take off tracksuits and start the Rugby.

Its telling the countries who don't feel the need to "beat" the Haka are the ones who beat NZ most often - namely South Africa and the Aussies.

I remember SCW saying to the England squad to let the Haka inspire them, enjoy it, take it in. The result? England won. Look at France in 07. Chabal looked like a possessed man moving towards the haka arm in arm with the french team. It's a great spectacle for the fans and tradition. keep it going i say..

Kobus Wiese stood firm on the halfway line, standing shoulder to shoulder with his teammates staring down the Haka, with expressionless faces.

But that's how Boers react to all dance troupes, and most social occasions, isn't it?

Here is the Munster Haka vs the AB's

Spoiler:

Whats the story behind Munster doing the Haka then?

Cowshot wrote:I'm told it's a greeting and a challenge. OK. Fair enough.

Bunch of blokes group up, dance, pull faces, shout and make curious gestures. Fine. Just before kickoff you stand around passively while they wind themselves up and then quick as possible start the game. Ok. Great theatre, nicely contrived edge (don't tell me that didn't occur to Shelford cos I won't believe you).

Don't you think you are just a tad disrespectful there?.

It has been a tribal tradition in the south pacific (not only NZ) long before spectators and television cameras. It is something all these South Pacific Islands ( Including the Maori and rest of New Zealand) are proud of and have been doing for many, many years. I personally feel honoured to see something like that in the greatest sport in the world.

Rugby will be poorer for it, if it ever were to stop.

Face it, respect it, look them in the eye, get on with the match.

red_stag wrote:Stand there, let them do the Haka and start the game.

With perhaps a light round of polite and sincere applause when they're done

Hobo wrote:Here is the Munster Haka vs the AB's

Spoiler:

Whats the story behind Munster doing the Haka then?

There were 4 New Zealanders in the Munster team who chose to do the Haka as a mark of respect to their countrymen.

Ban the Welsh choir from singing before Wales home games and see how they like it!

My guess would be not a lot

BATH_BTGOG, I wish they would ban choirs from the Millennium Stadium. They're meant to encourage singing but have the opposite effect. They should go back to having a brass band playing, people would sing then.

I don't like when crowds sing over the Haka or boo- truth is, teams should just watch them and get on with the game. They can't let it phase them or affect them. No-one has ever been beaten by a Haka, a Haka has never put points on the scoreboard. It affects you as much as you let it.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Ban the Welsh choir from singing before Wales home games and see how they like it!

My guess would be not a lot

I would welcome it. I'm sick to death of "Delilah". Since when did a song about a man murdering is unfaithful girlfriend become associated with rugby? Tom Jones is a 2at as well.

Also meant to say. I refereed a Welsh team who were on tour in Ireland this season. They did a Haka at the start of the match which baffled me. Is this a done thing?

Cari wrote: Tom Jones is a 2at as well.

That is going too far! Tom Jones is a lgened and nothing to do with him being Wlesh. His music is simply incredible (his pre reinvention stuff): check out my thread:

https://www.606v2.com/t1082-tom-jones

Hobo wrote:Whats the story behind Munster doing the Haka then?

Doug Howlett, Rua Tipoki, Lifeimi Mafi and Jeremy Manning performed the Kamate Kamate haka. What I understand is that they contacted their Elders back in NZ to get permission to perform the haka as a challenge against NZ, while the rest of the Munster squad stood, locked arm in arm in support behind them. It is probably THE BEST occasion in which to have been at a rugby match for the spectacle and the atmosphere in the ground, as can be seen on the video.

biltongbek wrote:

Cowshot wrote:I'm told it's a greeting and a challenge. OK. Fair enough.

Bunch of blokes group up, dance, pull faces, shout and make curious gestures. Fine. Just before kickoff you stand around passively while they wind themselves up and then quick as possible start the game. Ok. Great theatre, nicely contrived edge (don't tell me that didn't occur to Shelford cos I won't believe you).

Don't you think you are just a tad disrespectful there?.

It has been a tribal tradition in the south pacific (not only NZ) long before spectators and television cameras. It is something all these South Pacific Islands ( Including the Maori and rest of New Zealand) are proud of and have been doing for many, many years. I personally feel honoured to see something like that in the greatest sport in the world.

Rugby will be poorer for it, if it ever were to stop.

I think I probably wouldn't vote to have it removed, were I given the chance. For the reasons you give.

But I think Shelford saw the potential of the Haka not only for team building in general, but also as a way of getting the ABs to start every game on a controlled adrenaline high while the other team stands there and takes it. Very, very strong, psychologically. That is what the modern Haka is in Rugby terms.

Culturally, it is all you say. In Rugby terms, it has no more right to be on the pitch than a welcome speech. To English eyes, it involves a lot of things we tell our children NOT to do, like stick out tongues, pull faces, and make loud, threatening gestures. If you turned up at a party and behaved like that you'd probably be asked politely to leave.

My point is that to my cultural eyes, done in my home, it looks effin rude, and in the charged up state we are all in just before a game, I for one want to smack the noisy one in the middle.

Catpain Blackudder wrote:

red_stag wrote:Stand there, let them do the Haka and start the game.

With perhaps a light round of polite and sincere applause when they're done

A large cheer of appreciation and a standing ovation would be more appropriate I think for witnessing one of sports greatest traditions.

Give the boys a nail file and a mobile phone and tell them to imitate their girlfriends nattering to their girlfriends.

Hobo wrote:

Cari wrote: Tom Jones is a 2at as well.

That is going too far! Tom Jones is a lgened and nothing to do with him being Wlesh. His music is simply incredible (his pre reinvention stuff): check out my thread:

https://www.606v2.com/t1082-tom-jones

Hobo - as a South Walian (born and bred) I'm allowed to slag him off. I'm sick to the back teeth hearing about what a bastion of Welsh popular culture he is; when he isn't. He doesn't mean sheet to my generation.

Cowshot wrote:

To English eyes, it involves a lot of things we tell our children NOT to do, like stick out tongues, pull faces, and make loud, threatening gestures. If you turned up at a party and behaved like that you'd probably be asked politely to leave.

Maybe children should be taught to respect other cultures too and that what is percieved as rude in one culture is not necessarily in another.

Cari wrote:

Hobo wrote:

Cari wrote: Tom Jones is a 2at as well.

That is going too far! Tom Jones is a lgened and nothing to do with him being Wlesh. His music is simply incredible (his pre reinvention stuff): check out my thread:

https://www.606v2.com/t1082-tom-jones

Hobo - as a South Walian (born and bred) I'm allowed to slag him off. I'm sick to the back teeth hearing about what a bastion of Welsh popular culture he is; when he isn't. He doesn't mean sheet to my generation.

I'm steering this way off topic now! But I am 38 - hardly born and raised in TJ's hay day. I only got into him about 4 years ago and only really like his old stuff. Amazing compositions and I think his music heritage has been blighted by the Wales Albatross around his neck. If he had been from Grimsby, you would love him and appreciate the music for what it is - timeless.

the welsh response was good, when i was at one of the welsh all black matches the sound of wales, wales deafened out the noise of the haka- it is an electrical feeling.

saying about england singing gstq while AB were doing the haka, thats how national anthems started, the new zealanders did the haka against the welsh who responded by singing the national anthem and so national anthems before the match was born.

but the thing if you make a challenge in response to the haka then you need to back it up with a performance

cari strong words indeed but he is a bastion of Welsh popular culture.

learn to love yours and other peoples cultures.

Maybe children should be taught to respect other cultures too and that what is percieved as rude in one culture is not necessarily in another

Strangely enough we do teach that, and learn it, which is why so many cultures exist here together in relative peace and quiet. However, there are some traditions that have every right to exist, but which require a certain amount of gritting of teeth from other cultures.

So I do appreciate the OFFICIAL intent, which is why I said I probably wouldn't vote to have it removed, given the chance.

I also appreciate what I think was Buck Shelford's intent when he reinvented the Haka. And hats off to him for some smart thinking.

But in the charged up state we are all in just before a game, I still want to smack the noisy one in the middle.

If Ireland wanted to take the wind out of New Zealand's sails after the haka, all they have to do is delay the President being introduced to the players until after the haka. That way once they have laid down the challenge, they are confronted with a polite 'how do you do?' handshake and have to wait 15 minutes for her to get back to her seat before the game starts.

In all honestly, I put some of Ireland never beating New Zealand down to mindset. They get focused for the game, watch the haka, and almost give New Zealand too much respect during the game.

Cowshot wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Cowshot wrote:I'm told it's a greeting and a challenge. OK. Fair enough.

Bunch of blokes group up, dance, pull faces, shout and make curious gestures. Fine. Just before kickoff you stand around passively while they wind themselves up and then quick as possible start the game. Ok. Great theatre, nicely contrived edge (don't tell me that didn't occur to Shelford cos I won't believe you).

Don't you think you are just a tad disrespectful there?.

It has been a tribal tradition in the south pacific (not only NZ) long before spectators and television cameras. It is something all these South Pacific Islands ( Including the Maori and rest of New Zealand) are proud of and have been doing for many, many years. I personally feel honoured to see something like that in the greatest sport in the world.

Rugby will be poorer for it, if it ever were to stop.

I think I probably wouldn't vote to have it removed, were I given the chance. For the reasons you give.

But I think Shelford saw the potential of the Haka not only for team building in general, but also as a way of getting the ABs to start every game on a controlled adrenaline high while the other team stands there and takes it. Very, very strong, psychologically. That is what the modern Haka is in Rugby terms.

Culturally, it is all you say. In Rugby terms, it has no more right to be on the pitch than a welcome speech. To English eyes, it involves a lot of things we tell our children NOT to do, like stick out tongues, pull faces, and make loud, threatening gestures. If you turned up at a party and behaved like that you'd probably be asked politely to leave.

My point is that to my cultural eyes, done in my home, it looks effin rude, and in the charged up state we are all in just before a game, I for one want to smack the noisy one in the middle.

And yet when the ABs decided to stop doing it some years back the Home Unions complained and asked for it to be brought back.

I'll add that I have performed a haka at parties, and been cheered .

The modern haka does owe a lot to Buck Shelford. But it also owes a lot to the "Maori rennaissance" since the mid '70s. The AB's haka in the 50s and 60s sadly reflects the status of Maori culture at the time - kids being beaten for speaking Maori in school, Whites only sides selected to tour South Africa, etc. It's also worth noting that All Blacks' teams pre WWII did the haka "properly", it's decline in the 60s was an aberation.


Of course we could follow Nelson College's example and get any travelling NZ fans to join in

Spoiler:

Now thats a tradition rugby could do without the Irish Presidents pre game walkabout

like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aei2PrPHigE&NR=1