'Well if you can't beat em' should have been the caption...

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Rugby commentator Keith Quinn has labelled plans by the England team to wear an all-black strip at the Rugby World Cup as ''crazy''.

''Of all the colours in the rainbow, why would they choose the colour of the host nation?'' he said.

''They are thumbing their noses at a New Zealand tradition. It's bizarre."

The new away strip will feature when England kick-off their World Cup campaign against Argentina in Dunedin on September 10.

"The decision is certain to ruffle a few Kiwi feathers and could even spark a diplomatic row with the host nation before a ball has been kicked," The Daily Mail reported.

The shirt and the shorts of the new strip are understood to be jet black, with no other colour except for the Red Rose badge.

The iconic All Blacks jersey has a 127-year history, dating back to 1884. England's new away strip will be officially unveiled by Nike on August 1.

Quinn suspected jersey sales were behind the move.

''They will often switch jerseys so people have to buy the new colour."

The New Zealand rugby public would not be happy, Quinn said.

"I don't think they will throw things, but they will be scornful of England coming into our territory wearing black."

Asked what he thought of the English team's new black away-strip, lock Ali Williams said "I couldn't care what they wear. It's training stuff, not what they play in."

When told it was what they would play in, Williams replied: "Oh it is? All black? Let's hope they don't play us then. It'd look funny, two teams running around in black."

England's move to black also diminished its own proud red and white history, Quinn said.

"It's crazy."

While officially England's away strip, it will be worn for their three World Cup warm-up matches in August and for their tournament opener.

It could be worn for other pool games and beyond, however should England meet the All Blacks in the final they would return to their traditional white uniform.

England's training kit for the World Cup also has a Kiwi twist - with a red rose crest on the chest surrounded by ancient Maori symbols and decorations.

England players were not asked about the colour of the new kit, but were understood to be excited about wearing it even though they risk upsetting the host nation, The Daily Mail reported.

The English Rugby Football Union have spoken to their NZRU counterparts, who reportedly said they had no objection to the black strip.

The All Blacks will unveil a new high-tech jersey against South Africa in their opening Investec Tri Nations match at Westpac Stadium on July 30.

In 2007, a lost coin toss meant the All Blacks had to wear their silver away strip for their ill-fated quarter final against France in Cardiff.

France wore a blue jersey some believed had been darkened in a deliberate move to force the All Blacks out of their iconic strip into the alternate jersey.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5289989/England-go-all-black-for-Rugby-World-Cup

Don't see any problem... If they think it will make them play better all good. Just a little odd.

Don't see why it would ruffle feathers and the NZRU have said they didn't have a problem with it though you'd think strategically people could come up with better ideas?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 16 Jul 2011, 10:20 am

emack2 wrote:Irony All Blacks away strip by tradition[except for that awful grey one in 2007]White shirt,Black shorts.
Englands has changed most seasons presumably for commercial reasons,
this year its Black.
The All Blacks shirt is not just that,it is a dynasty since 1905 that every wearer has to try to live up to there tradition.
A shirt what ever colour cannot emulate that.

And you wonder why new zealnders have a reputation for bing up thir own arses?
They make no seret that its for commerial reasons. Its how they fund the game, What eactly is wrong with the RFU fundng rugby, its it any different to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsM2xXxGWpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hptXcwtSyJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWyr8SOh4dk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfKoz0l8ifo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKaqoq5NVVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKAl1Rxbg4A&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFVuHLTlSug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO_JTd9EJV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyfrSd6e2Cg

by welshjohn369 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:11 am

The ALL BLACKs kit.......Made in China Smile

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:39 am

blackcanelion wrote:I think this is a media beat up. I don't care if England want to wear a black alternate strip and I suspect most kiwis don't. It's a marketing ploy. Reading the comments I think the likes of McCaw and key treated it as such. Keys comments are his attempt at humour, aimed at a kiwi male audience.

I do wonder if it's a wise decision by the RFU. It does have the potential, if the media stir enough, to set the NZ public against England. Seems symptomatic of the RFU at the moment.

--------------------------------------------

It probably is a marketing ploy. Would it really turn Kiwis against the England team? I don;t suppose we're going to be many people's second team but equally, as you say, i can't see most Kiwis caring much.

by TheGreyGhost Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:41 am

WelshJohn I'm feeling a lot of anger from you. Is it all that pent up anxiety of waiting your entire life for a Welsh victory over NZ? Or is it that you know that Wales are likely to go out in the pools to their South Pacific Islander nemesis again this year?

by Adam D Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:41 am

just been talking to a writer from ESPN scrum about it (Graeme Jenkins) and he reiterated some of the commnets on here about it being a Nike money spinner.

However, he suggested they should have chosen this one instead!

Spoiler:

The England 7s kit.....Worst. Kit. Ever!

by welshjohn369 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:46 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:WelshJohn I'm feeling a lot of anger from you. Is it all that pent up anxiety of waiting your entire life for a Welsh victory over NZ? Or is it that you know that Wales are likely to go out in the pools to their South Pacific Islander nemesis again this year?

GG let me tell you once old son, you do not have the ability to either wind me up or cause me to become angry. I, like many here are aware of your ability to be a total idiot and one who runs and hides like the yellow livers coward you are when you are found out.

You are one of a very small minority of kiwis who just scream out, "Hey come and punch me, I deserve it" randy

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:50 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:WelshJohn I'm feeling a lot of anger from you. Is it all that pent up anxiety of waiting your entire life for a Welsh victory over NZ? Or is it that you know that Wales are likely to go out in the pools to their South Pacific Islander nemesis again this year?

-----------------------------

Bit of a hostage to fortune their GG, people might start mentioning France.

On a serious side though, does it genuinely bother you. I think we all know it's a money spinner first and foremost, and i can see how that might grate, but it isn't the AB kit and it never can be - isn't that the point. At best a sign of the aura of the AB shirt but always a pale imitation.

Equally, may be a little tenuous, but it really could be taken as a sign of respect, you can kinda read it both ways surely, why see the negative in it?

by TheGreyGhost Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:59 am

Frankly I doubt England will feature in this RWC, so it doesn't really concern me. It could be seen as a little bit arrogant, a bit provocative, controversial, cynical, or as a compliment marking the heritage of the host nation (albeit in a very self important way). It's what we've come to expect from the RFU who certainly and unquestionably lead the way in terms of murky professionalism. It's interesting that they've named it as a change strip to play Argentina. I wonder what will happen if Argentina announce a first strip which is very dark in shade...

by Rob B Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:05 pm

[quote="welshjohn369"]

TheGreyGhost wrote:

You are one of a very small minority of kiwis who just scream out, "Hey come and punch me, I deserve it"

Welshjohn, nah you are being too generous there - it's not a small minority!

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:17 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Frankly I doubt England will feature in this RWC, so it doesn't really concern me. It could be seen as a little bit arrogant, a bit provocative, controversial, cynical, or as a compliment marking the heritage of the host nation (albeit in a very self important way). It's what we've come to expect from the RFU who certainly and unquestionably lead the way in terms of murky professionalism. It's interesting that they've named it as a change strip to play Argentina. I wonder what will happen if Argentina announce a first strip which is very dark in shade...

"(albeit in a very self important way)" - Jaysus is never ends does it. More self important than suggesting no other team is allowed to wear your colours? You realise the ridiculousness in this don't you? Or dare i say it, insisting you can perform the Haka after every other home team's national anthem because you're special? (Before you whinge i love the Haka, long may it continue but you see the point surely?) The RFU are full of idiots i certainly take that point, as i think the recent review will testify to if they ever manage to publish it.

Actually that is a very valid point, i do wonder to what extent they plan with all other teams they'll be required to play. You're right, they'd look pretty stupid if they went to the trouble of consulting with the NZRU only to find Argentina have a near identical dark navy kit.

by snoopster Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:45 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Frankly I doubt England will feature in this RWC, so it doesn't really concern me.

Do you not understand how the Rugby World Cup works?

by Adam D Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:50 pm

snoopster wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Frankly I doubt England will feature in this RWC, so it doesn't really concern me.

Do you not understand how the Rugby World Cup works?

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 1:22 pm

Hobo wrote:
snoopster wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Frankly I doubt England will feature in this RWC, so it doesn't really concern me.

Do you not understand how the Rugby World Cup works?

Ha, nice

by TheGreyGhost Sat 16 Jul 2011, 4:30 pm

Yep. Here you go with your English arrogance again. You just can't see what is provocative about adopting another nation's national colours at a world cup hosted in their home country...the British devine right to own everything at work there I guess. I wonder if the world cup was in Japan whether a red alternative strip would have come out of the wood work, a green and gold alternate for games in Australia and a dark green version for South Africa.

There's "multiculturalism" and then there's just selling your identity out altogether...

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 5:03 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep. Here you go with your English arrogance again. You just can't see what is provocative about adopting another nation's national colours at a world cup hosted in their home country...the British devine right to own everything at work there I guess. I wonder if the world cup was in Japan whether a red alternative strip would have come out of the wood work, a green and gold alternate for games in Australia and a dark green version for South Africa.

There's "multiculturalism" and then there's just selling your identity out altogether...

I give up. I'm sure this isn't the first time a team has adopted the colours of a home team at WC time as an away kit, but if it is maybe the RFU should have been a bit more smart and realised this would have wound some people up.

'The 'British' divine right to own everything' - firstly, i'm loathe to point this out, but it's only England, and secondly i think you may be betraying your prejudices there a little bit GG.

I'm amazed that a decision by the RFU is an indication of typical British arrogance. I'm pretty certain there's a world outside rugby.

I will concede one thing, i think a kit of red with white shorts might have made more sense both in terms of our national colours and preventing the sort of hyper-ventilating faux-outrage of a small minority of AB fans. The RFU should have known better.

by TheGreyGhost Sat 16 Jul 2011, 5:04 pm

I guess you'd come to expect from MJ a team full of NZers wearing black. After all he did learn his rugby in NZ, is clearly in awe of the place as marked by his very personal tatoo of the Islands.

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 5:16 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:I guess you'd come to expect from MJ a team full of NZers wearing black. After all he did learn his rugby in NZ, is clearly in awe of the place as marked by his very personal tatoo of the Islands.

That's right, he has a VERY healthy respect for New Zealand and the ABs. And there are plenty of other Englishmen who have exactly the same attitude. You may want to think about that.

by Breadvan Sat 16 Jul 2011, 6:12 pm

GG, You seriously need some help.

www.samaritans.org

by welshy824 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 7:15 pm

to be honest i dont see the big deal, its not like englands first choice kit would be black, its their away shirt which is hardly ever worn, i mean the welsh away kit is black no one makes a big deal. i guess RFU couldnt use a blue/purple as it would be similar to the pumas?

but its all a marketing ploy tbh i mean its not like with football their are too many teams with same colour home shirt so... No big deal-AND ITS NOT LIKE IT WILL HAVE AN AFFECT ON THE ACTUAL WC??

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 16 Jul 2011, 7:57 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep. Here you go with your English arrogance again. You just can't see what is provocative about adopting another nation's national colours at a world cup hosted in their home country...

They did ask first and were told it was no problem, its rather more arrogant to sue lubs who have had an dentity longer beause your union wants to own the branding for commerial exploitation

TheGreyGhost wrote:There's "multiculturalism" and then there's just selling your identity out altogether...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsM2xXxGWpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hptXcwtSyJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWyr8SOh4dk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfKoz0l8ifo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKaqoq5NVVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKAl1Rxbg4A&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFVuHLTlSug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO_JTd9EJV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyfrSd6e2Cg

You really make it far too easy sometimes GG

by Hood83 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 8:38 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep. Here you go with your English arrogance again. You just can't see what is provocative about adopting another nation's national colours at a world cup hosted in their home country...

They did ask first and were told it was no problem, its rather more arrogant to sue lubs who have had an dentity longer beause your union wants to own the branding for commerial exploitation

TheGreyGhost wrote:There's "multiculturalism" and then there's just selling your identity out altogether...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsM2xXxGWpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hptXcwtSyJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWyr8SOh4dk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfKoz0l8ifo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKaqoq5NVVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKAl1Rxbg4A&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFVuHLTlSug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO_JTd9EJV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyfrSd6e2Cg

You really make it far too easy sometimes GG

Hahaha, bang to rights.

by welshy824 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 10:13 pm

Why are people arguing about this, GG i know it can be ammusing but dont wind up the english fans, seriously does it really matter like McCaw said if you are relying on your shirt in the wc you are in trouble and whats done is done so no point worrying about it

by welshjohn369 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:00 pm

1, the colour black is owned by noone.
2, All Black's would be owned by Neath RFC.
3, Wales introduced their BLACK jersey a few weeks before England, don't think they even spoke to the NZRU and why should they?
4. Only insignificant crybabies such as GG complain and throw dummies out the pram (heard he threw himself out once he was so angry!).
5. Show me any other country who exploit their rugby team for monitary gain like the NZ team? In fact GG show me a football team that exploits their national team as much as NZ does.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:26 pm

Yes the Wesh did Welsh but they didnt announce it 6 weeks before the World cup in NZ nor did they put maori insignia around the emblem.

And exploit their rugby team for monetary gain? Is that what it is?
Parhaps its all about supply and demand. Cant sell what nobody wants welsh. Good luck though. (And clearly someone wants it)

by welshjohn369 Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:34 pm

You gear is only sold in NZ at any large amount, and the adverts are not seen outside NZ either so supply and demand to where?

I must admit I do not have a pic of the england shirt where I can see any Maori stuff, fact is Maori use everything that the Western world do so share and share alike I say. Stoneage customs and hanging on to a past which is dead and gone just makes Maori complains look silly in the bigger world.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:44 pm

Well I didnt bring up the exploit their rugby team comment- I didnt even know what you were on about.

It wasnt about maori complaints though there were a few moans apparently but if thats looks silly how silly does someone look who have nothing to with its original meanings look?

I mean havnt England got enough bits in their history to call upon? From all the Robin Hood movies Ive seen looks like there are plenty... (just another dig pj...stopping now... censored

)

by Sin é Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:57 pm

Seem to remember New Zealand bitching bigtime about 'Les Bleus' very dark blue jersey at the last RWC.

That worked for them Wink

by aucklandlaurie Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:59 pm

i took a completely different stance on it.
I presumed the "KORU" design around the red Rose ,was to recognise and signify New Zealand as being the host of the tournament.
My take is that the English are being both thoughtful and respectful and the last thing we (NZers) should do is criticise them for that.

by Hood83 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 1:22 am

Taylorman wrote:Well I didnt bring up the exploit their rugby team comment- I didnt even know what you were on about.

It wasnt about maori complaints though there were a few moans apparently but if thats looks silly how silly does someone look who have nothing to with its original meanings look?

I mean havnt England got enough bits in their history to call upon? From all the Robin Hood movies Ive seen looks like there are plenty... (just another dig pj...stopping now... )

I hope that is a genuine doth of the cap to my great great great etc etc grandfather Very Happy

(Hood is my surname, just to clear up)

Aucklandlaurie - Nice to hear someone has taken it as a compliment rather than an insult. If they'd not bothered to consult the NZRU i could see why it would be taken as disrespectful, but as it is, seems everyone is happy it is meant in the right spirit. I have to ask myself whether i'd care if the ABs had an all white away kit in 2015...the answer is no. You could say there is less significance attached to it, but that in itself would be pretty arrogant.

How would the other England fans on here feel if the ABs had an all white away kit for 2015?

by Countnefarious Sun 17 Jul 2011, 3:53 am

Auklandlaurie, don't try and put an end to this discussion by being all grown up!

You are, of course, completely correct, and I'm sure most Kiwis would agree with you.

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:08 am

Luckily I think the French have come to the aid of the English with that moko stunt.

by welshjohn369 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:15 am

Well done Frenchman Very Happy

Seems as if Maori can take or steal what they want. Maybe Don Brash is right.

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:21 am

You Welshjohn, are a complete racist.

by welshjohn369 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:24 am

Hahahahaha yeah mention Maori and you are racist hahaha report me to hone H Yahoo

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:25 am

It wasn't so much the mentioning of Maori it was your statement about Maori taking and stealing which was completely offensive and unwarranted.

by welshjohn369 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:30 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:It wasn't so much the mentioning of Maori it was your statement about Maori taking and stealing which was completely offensive and unwarranted.

No it's not

by Taylorman Sun 17 Jul 2011, 7:53 am

Here we have a welshman living in NZ rubbishing Kiwis and a Kiwi in London rubbishing the poms /NHers... weird

by welshjohn369 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 8:23 am

I am not rubbishing anyone, I am saying what the majority of white New Zealand people think. It's not racist, it is however like living in some throwback of time when I have to watch that I do not upset a monster!! Or that some people want to tell me what tattoo I can not have or what part of the beach I can go to.

Not that it will ever happen/

by bedfordwelsh Sun 17 Jul 2011, 8:51 am

Apologies if this has been done but read yesterday Englands Away Kit for the WC is gonna be ALl Black.

Now we (Wales) have had our own share of shocking away kit including that Yellow thing and now the Blue cricket like strip, is this just another case of the Unions not really giving a damn about fans and trying to cash in at a time when peoples budgets are stretched.

After all who is in Englands group that would require them to actually have to change to their away strip?

by snoopster Sun 17 Jul 2011, 10:01 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep. Here you go with your English arrogance again. You just can't see what is provocative about adopting another nation's national colours at a world cup hosted in their home country...the British devine right to own everything at work there I guess. I wonder if the world cup was in Japan whether a red alternative strip would have come out of the wood work, a green and gold alternate for games in Australia and a dark green version for South Africa.

There's "multiculturalism" and then there's just selling your identity out altogether...

And having lost the argument again you go back to nasty bigotry

are you really a Kiwi, or are you someone who hates New Zealand and are trying to make New Zealanders look bad?

by Guest Sun 17 Jul 2011, 11:18 am

Argentina.

Yes it's been done in other forms discussing the Black kit.

by snoopster Sun 17 Jul 2011, 11:28 am

England have a black away kit, so do Wales.
New Zealand have a white one and so do Australia, South Africa, France and Scotland.

England have to wear their change kit when they play Argentina and if they play Fiji. France will presumably have to wear their's against New Zealand.

It is all a fuss about nothing, stirred up by idiots.

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 1:11 pm

The issue is that England dreamed up this black kit just in time for the RWC in NZ. England have never used a black away kit before. Certainly not one with a Koru design featuring prominently.

Have you seen the fury being directed in the direction of a certain French player for appearing in a fashion magazine with a fake moko?

Traditional values are fiercely coveted and protected in some part of the world, and while I wouldn't for a minute suggest that the AB kit is as sacred as the tradition of moko, I'd say there is an equivalent in terms of commercial revenue in the global economy, and I'm surprised that trademark issues haven't been pursued by those with vested interest.

by **Pal Joey** Sun 17 Jul 2011, 3:29 pm

Surely these symbols and traditions are protected though GG?

I'd be surprised too if they weren't. I'm sure someone will be looking into it and we'll hear more in the coming days.

by Hood83 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 3:44 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:The issue is that England dreamed up this black kit just in time for the RWC in NZ. England have never used a black away kit before. Certainly not one with a Koru design featuring prominently.

Have you seen the fury being directed in the direction of a certain French player for appearing in a fashion magazine with a fake moko?

Traditional values are fiercely coveted and protected in some part of the world, and while I wouldn't for a minute suggest that the AB kit is as sacred as the tradition of moko, I'd say there is an equivalent in terms of commercial revenue in the global economy, and I'm surprised that trademark issues haven't been pursued by those with vested interest.

I can completely understand people being peed off at the thought of people using their traditions for commercial gain. I can also see it may be taken as flippant for a white British guy to dismiss this. But we see this with the Haka - perceived slights and offences that are in fact, just as likely a sign of respect and recognition.

I can't argue that this is quite likely entirely a marketing ploy, but the right people were consulted surely. i presume in discussions with the NZRU the RFU took advice on the writing as well. A total disregard for the traditions of others is pretty disgusting, but equally the fierce protection of 'traditional values' can easily slip into a very different type of bigotry and racism. Cuts both ways i think.

As i say, i think it was ill-advised but i also think the right steps were taken.

by antipodean Sun 17 Jul 2011, 3:46 pm

welshjohn369 wrote:
antipodean wrote:
nottins wrote:That old traditional white that New Zealand are so renowned for. I suspect the RFU just peed themselves laughing.
New Zealand's alternate strip was always the white top.
"WAS" suggests an historical flavour. They wore grey when France beat them.

...and they've gone back to their historical away strip. What part of this are you having difficulty with?

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:18 pm

Hood83 wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:The issue is that England dreamed up this black kit just in time for the RWC in NZ. England have never used a black away kit before. Certainly not one with a Koru design featuring prominently.

Have you seen the fury being directed in the direction of a certain French player for appearing in a fashion magazine with a fake moko?

Traditional values are fiercely coveted and protected in some part of the world, and while I wouldn't for a minute suggest that the AB kit is as sacred as the tradition of moko, I'd say there is an equivalent in terms of commercial revenue in the global economy, and I'm surprised that trademark issues haven't been pursued by those with vested interest.

I can completely understand people being peed off at the thought of people using their traditions for commercial gain. I can also see it may be taken as flippant for a white British guy to dismiss this. But we see this with the Haka - perceived slights and offences that are in fact, just as likely a sign of respect and recognition.

I can't argue that this is quite likely entirely a marketing ploy, but the right people were consulted surely. i presume in discussions with the NZRU the RFU took advice on the writing as well. A total disregard for the traditions of others is pretty disgusting, but equally the fierce protection of 'traditional values' can easily slip into a very different type of bigotry and racism. Cuts both ways i think.

As i say, i think it was ill-advised but i also think the right steps were taken.

It is a complete minefield to be honest. Maori had to fight tooth and nail for a very long time to protect their culture and language, sometimes as a non-Maori the kind of reaction can look precious and confusing. I think that a large part of it is that different cultures have different ways of showing respect. In the moko case, the French player in question believed he was showing respect by using the symbol, but Maori see it otherwise. As they said, it wouldn't have killed them to pick up the phone and check.

While I view the RFUs decision to go with the black kit with a raised eyebrow, I believe they did have the courtesy to check and were given the green light (not sure about the Koru design though...). I also recall the RFU graciously accepting the request for the Crusaders to use Twickenham despite copping some grief from local clubs, so it's not so hard to park the cynicism on that one.

by Hood83 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:37 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:The issue is that England dreamed up this black kit just in time for the RWC in NZ. England have never used a black away kit before. Certainly not one with a Koru design featuring prominently.

Have you seen the fury being directed in the direction of a certain French player for appearing in a fashion magazine with a fake moko?

Traditional values are fiercely coveted and protected in some part of the world, and while I wouldn't for a minute suggest that the AB kit is as sacred as the tradition of moko, I'd say there is an equivalent in terms of commercial revenue in the global economy, and I'm surprised that trademark issues haven't been pursued by those with vested interest.

I can completely understand people being peed off at the thought of people using their traditions for commercial gain. I can also see it may be taken as flippant for a white British guy to dismiss this. But we see this with the Haka - perceived slights and offences that are in fact, just as likely a sign of respect and recognition.

I can't argue that this is quite likely entirely a marketing ploy, but the right people were consulted surely. i presume in discussions with the NZRU the RFU took advice on the writing as well. A total disregard for the traditions of others is pretty disgusting, but equally the fierce protection of 'traditional values' can easily slip into a very different type of bigotry and racism. Cuts both ways i think.

As i say, i think it was ill-advised but i also think the right steps were taken.

It is a complete minefield to be honest. Maori had to fight tooth and nail for a very long time to protect their culture and language, sometimes as a non-Maori the kind of reaction can look precious and confusing. I think that a large part of it is that different cultures have different ways of showing respect. In the moko case, the French player in question believed he was showing respect by using the symbol, but Maori see it otherwise. As they said, it wouldn't have killed them to pick up the phone and check.

While I view the RFUs decision to go with the black kit with a raised eyebrow, I believe they did have the courtesy to check and were given the green light (not sure about the Koru design though...). I also recall the RFU graciously accepting the request for the Crusaders to use Twickenham despite copping some grief from local clubs, so it's not so hard to park the cynicism on that one.

I think this is a fair point, bit of an obvious gaffe not bothering to ask, and yes i'm loathe to be too critical of those looking to protect their culture. It's crass timing by the RFU, i can definitely see that argument. If they consulted with the NZRU some time back they should have been clear on this, but i realise they want to bring these new designs out nearer to the competition. Nothing surprises me about the RFU, i think most of us despair of the decisions they make. In this instance it's one of the few times i'm not completely ashamed of their conduct. Your previous point still stands as well, what if the Argentina kit is dark blue?

by snoopster Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:54 pm

Hood83 wrote: Your previous point still stands as well, what if the Argentina kit is dark blue?

They've already announced their shirts - light blue and white, as normal.

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:56 pm

Really? Argentina didn't go with a black away kit just to "mark the occassion"?

How traditional of them. censored

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