'Well if you can't beat em' should have been the caption...

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Rugby commentator Keith Quinn has labelled plans by the England team to wear an all-black strip at the Rugby World Cup as ''crazy''.

''Of all the colours in the rainbow, why would they choose the colour of the host nation?'' he said.

''They are thumbing their noses at a New Zealand tradition. It's bizarre."

The new away strip will feature when England kick-off their World Cup campaign against Argentina in Dunedin on September 10.

"The decision is certain to ruffle a few Kiwi feathers and could even spark a diplomatic row with the host nation before a ball has been kicked," The Daily Mail reported.

The shirt and the shorts of the new strip are understood to be jet black, with no other colour except for the Red Rose badge.

The iconic All Blacks jersey has a 127-year history, dating back to 1884. England's new away strip will be officially unveiled by Nike on August 1.

Quinn suspected jersey sales were behind the move.

''They will often switch jerseys so people have to buy the new colour."

The New Zealand rugby public would not be happy, Quinn said.

"I don't think they will throw things, but they will be scornful of England coming into our territory wearing black."

Asked what he thought of the English team's new black away-strip, lock Ali Williams said "I couldn't care what they wear. It's training stuff, not what they play in."

When told it was what they would play in, Williams replied: "Oh it is? All black? Let's hope they don't play us then. It'd look funny, two teams running around in black."

England's move to black also diminished its own proud red and white history, Quinn said.

"It's crazy."

While officially England's away strip, it will be worn for their three World Cup warm-up matches in August and for their tournament opener.

It could be worn for other pool games and beyond, however should England meet the All Blacks in the final they would return to their traditional white uniform.

England's training kit for the World Cup also has a Kiwi twist - with a red rose crest on the chest surrounded by ancient Maori symbols and decorations.

England players were not asked about the colour of the new kit, but were understood to be excited about wearing it even though they risk upsetting the host nation, The Daily Mail reported.

The English Rugby Football Union have spoken to their NZRU counterparts, who reportedly said they had no objection to the black strip.

The All Blacks will unveil a new high-tech jersey against South Africa in their opening Investec Tri Nations match at Westpac Stadium on July 30.

In 2007, a lost coin toss meant the All Blacks had to wear their silver away strip for their ill-fated quarter final against France in Cardiff.

France wore a blue jersey some believed had been darkened in a deliberate move to force the All Blacks out of their iconic strip into the alternate jersey.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5289989/England-go-all-black-for-Rugby-World-Cup

Don't see any problem... If they think it will make them play better all good. Just a little odd.

Don't see why it would ruffle feathers and the NZRU have said they didn't have a problem with it though you'd think strategically people could come up with better ideas?

by BATH_BTGOG Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:19 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:Thanks Kiwi. Looks like a slightly darker version of our change kit now. Scandal over move along please!

Indeed.

Actually (as was pointed out by people in the Welsh kit discussion here) there's some distinct similarities

Spoiler:

by PenfroPete Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:33 pm

Neath

are NOT the Welsh All Blacks. this lot are
http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/neylandrfc/

Check out the club badge - they have written permission for NZRFU to wear it

by BATH_BTGOG Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:42 pm

Whats the history behind the badge?

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:43 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Well I think the French dark blue shirt with Nike was worse. I don´t think you should be able to change your home strip willy-nilly. There should be clear boundaries for that.

Agreed. France used to play in French navy and Ireland in emerald green. When did that change and why was it allowed?

by disneychilly Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:56 pm

France changed their strip in 07 to clash with NZ's black strip. Don't know why they did as they've beaten NZ before in the World Cup when the Kiwis were wearing black. Smacks of disrespect of a team's national colour to be honest.

by sirtidychris Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:59 pm

Carpe Diem

If it were any other strip then it wouldn't matter, like you say it wouldn't be a big deal thats why no one cares new zealand have a white change strip (or WHITE as you seem to like capitals) but the fact is, this is a very iconic and almost religious thing over in new zealand thats why the rfu's choice of strip has upset the prime minister of new zealand along with 1000's of kiwis.

Of all the strips to choose why pick that one, it will do nothing but insight dislike towards our team and fans wearing the strip, as for personal experience yes i lived and worked in new zealand for two years and have many kiwi friends, thats why i find this embarrasing.

Also unfortunatley mate the english aren't held in high regard in many places in the world, alot of it is tongue in cheek and when you get to know people its just banter, but alot of it stems from english travelling abroad and not being respectful of other cultures, not integrating, not learning the language, getting drunk and rowdy etc etc....so thousands of unknowing english fans travelling to new zealand wearing a bastardised all black strip with maori symbols and an english rose is just going to reinforce negative sterotypes.

by disneychilly Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:03 pm

I don't really care what England wear as NZ and England's shirts don't clash. Just seems pretty dumb to me though that's all.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:03 pm

If Wales started playing in burgundy rather than red, I'd be furious. I don't know why there weren't protests when France and Ireland changed their colours.

by welshjohn369 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:04 pm

Neath wore ALL BLACK about 30 years before the NZ team did.

They may be able to have the fern leaf but if you wear an ALL BLACK kit first then you can call yourself ALL BLACKS.

NZ would lose hands down.

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:26 pm

I'm not sure that is true WelshJohn. If that were the case then folks who register a vacant domain name in anticipation of a large vendor wanting it later...such as thesunonsunday.com for instance, wouldn't be prosecuted for cyber-squatting...and Apple would never have escaped the Apple Corps. litigation.

Anyway at least all those Kiwis in the England squad will feel at home in the black jersey.

If rumours of the "English Haka" turn out to be true, NZ v England at any stage in the RWC could prove to be a bit of a laugh, for certain.

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:29 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
chewed_mintie wrote:I mean, who are England going to clash with kit wise at the WC? Are they expecting to play Fiji?

Possibly. If Fiji come second in the pool and beat Australia/Ireland in the QF AND England top the group and beat French in QF.

It's more to with the sponser/manufacturer. The yellow Welsh one was for SA Gold (or St. David's flag depending on whether you're naive or not).

Argentina. Aregentina wear light blue and white jerseys with white shorts. England wear white jerseys with white shorts.

Makes sense for them to wear their change strip.

by nathan Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:30 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:Here's the version off the RFU store site. Not quite black to be fair.

Spoiler:

this is pretty much a non-story as that kit looks nothing like the all blacks one!

by disneychilly Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:30 pm

Wonder why Neath didn't call themselves All Blacks then. Looks like NZ beat them to the name.

Funny lot though. I remember watching an interview with a couple of locals on the 89 NZ tour. They were just so sure Neath would win. Not passionate or anything like that, just so casual it implied they were playing the Pontypool under 19s or something. Don't get me wrong I love that they're up for it but the calm assuredness of a man whose club side was playing possibly the best side ever was flabbergasting.

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:31 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:If Wales started playing in burgundy rather than red, I'd be furious. I don't know why there weren't protests when France and Ireland changed their colours.

Actually the darker green we wore in 2007 is the same shade as Ireland used to wear years ago. We've always had very different shades of green throughout our history.

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:32 pm

Nice touch for England to include the series score from their last tour to NZ on their kit though...very nice touch.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:34 pm

It must be my memory then, Notch. I could have sworn Ireland played in a lighter green in the '80s and '90s - and in the '70s, unless I watched my rugby videos so often the colour started to fade...

by caoimhincentre Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:35 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Nice touch for England to include the series score from their last tour to NZ on their kit though...very nice touch.

0-2. Would that suggest england won the series 2-0. just saying

by nathan Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:38 pm

sirtidychris wrote:Carpe Diem

If it were any other strip then it wouldn't matter, like you say it wouldn't be a big deal thats why no one cares new zealand have a white change strip (or WHITE as you seem to like capitals) but the fact is, this is a very iconic and almost religious thing over in new zealand thats why the rfu's choice of strip has upset the prime minister of new zealand along with 1000's of kiwis.

Of all the strips to choose why pick that one, it will do nothing but insight dislike towards our team and fans wearing the strip, as for personal experience yes i lived and worked in new zealand for two years and have many kiwi friends, thats why i find this embarrasing.

Also unfortunatley mate the english aren't held in high regard in many places in the world, alot of it is tongue in cheek and when you get to know people its just banter, but alot of it stems from english travelling abroad and not being respectful of other cultures, not integrating, not learning the language, getting drunk and rowdy etc etc....so thousands of unknowing english fans travelling to new zealand wearing a bastardised all black strip with maori symbols and an english rose is just going to reinforce negative sterotypes.

Hmmmm, i've never found that living in NZ or many other places around the world. Yeah there's always banter, but that goes both ways.

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:39 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Nice touch for England to include the series score from their last tour to NZ on their kit though...very nice touch.

0-2. Would that suggest england won the series 2-0. just saying

They probably think of it as two moral victories, I imagine.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:45 pm

nathan wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:Here's the version off the RFU store site. Not quite black to be fair.

Spoiler:

this is pretty much a non-story as that kit looks nothing like the all blacks one!

It appears (on further research) that that's the general change kit for the coming year. The RWC black away kit is unveiled on August 1st (the day after NZ unveil their "new" strip).

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:46 pm

The general change kit? Erm...at what stage do they anticipate they'll be wearing that if there's a different one for the RWC?

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:46 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:It must be my memory then, Notch. I could have sworn Ireland played in a lighter green in the '80s and 90's - and in the '70s, unless I watched my rugby videos so often the colour started to fade...

I'm talkin' 40s and 50s. Check out this add from O2 from a while back... shows Ireland jerseys over the years. The one on the far left is the original colour- you could argue that very dark green is our 'traditional' colour. Personally I like the current shade of green.

Spoiler:

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,16024_7037653,00.html

Am I the only one who thinks the NZ reaction is incredibly pathetic and precious? So England wear black for one game- get over it Rolling Eyes

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:47 pm

I propose a change to the rules, where the host nation gets to pick what the other team's wear. Imagine the England side dressed as Morris dancers. That would be great.

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:48 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:I propose a change to the rules, where the host nation gets to pick what the other team's wear. Imagine the England side dressed as Morris dancers. That would be great.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:49 pm

Fair dos, Notch!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:49 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:The general change kit? Erm...at what stage do they anticipate they'll be wearing that if there's a different one for the RWC?

Maybe if Fiji turn up for an AI? Otherwise it's a change strip in the sense of "how much extra change can we extort out of the fans" Wink

Having said that, a similar black-with red away strip would be good for the Crusaders next season - anything to get rid of the awful Adidas grey one

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:50 pm

"'Of all the colours in the rainbow, why would they choose the colour of the host nation?'

He's not very bright is he ? Black isn't a colour of the rainbow. Why are NZ obsessed with England, it#s not as if they picked an away shirt the same colour as England is it ? Was there the same furore in NZ when Wales had their black shirt ?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:51 pm

sirtidychris wrote:Carpe Diem

If it were any other strip then it wouldn't matter, like you say it wouldn't be a big deal thats why no one cares new zealand have a white change strip (or WHITE as you seem to like capitals) but the fact is, this is a very iconic and almost religious thing over in new zealand thats why the rfu's choice of strip has upset the prime minister of new zealand along with 1000's of kiwis.

Of all the strips to choose why pick that one, it will do nothing but insight dislike towards our team and fans wearing the strip, as for personal experience yes i lived and worked in new zealand for two years and have many kiwi friends, thats why i find this embarrasing.

Also unfortunatley mate the english aren't held in high regard in many places in the world, alot of it is tongue in cheek and when you get to know people its just banter, but alot of it stems from english travelling abroad and not being respectful of other cultures, not integrating, not learning the language, getting drunk and rowdy etc etc....so thousands of unknowing english fans travelling to new zealand wearing a bastardised all black strip with maori symbols and an english rose is just going to reinforce negative sterotypes.

What you mean is if it were anyone but England it wouldnt be an issue.

And the change strip isnt "All Black" anyway, the article is a cheeky wind up. Which apparently has worked. I think youll fiond its the all balcks who are offending Moari culture, what exactly are the "moari symbols" on the England kit (honestly if im missing something there Id like to know) ?
Why is it OK for Welsh fans and Candians to travel there with black shirts and not English ones?

PS what dso you think about people like the Greyghost who moved here and despises everything English? He hasnt exactly enhanced the reupotation of New Zealanders as not being arrogant and sore losers, but it wont stop me watching the hobbit when it comes out.

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:52 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:The general change kit? Erm...at what stage do they anticipate they'll be wearing that if there's a different one for the RWC?

Maybe if Fiji turn up for an AI? Otherwise it's a change strip in the sense of "how much extra change can we extort out of the fans"

Having said that, a similar black-with red away strip would be good for the Crusaders next season - anything to get rid of the awful Adidas grey one

They've already said in the article that they'll be wearing it against Argentina. England usually wear a change strip when they play Argentina.

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:53 pm

Notch wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks the NZ reaction is incredibly pathetic and precious? So England wear black for one game- get over it

"pathetic and precious" sums it up nicely Notch.

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:53 pm

Wales wore black a few years ago in some anniversary celebration. I recall there being good natured ribbing from NZ then too. Why do you guys take everything so personally? You're going to our country, in which we are hosting the RWC and then try to wear the iconic All Black strip? talk about getting down on your knees and begging for it.

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:55 pm

I should learn to read more carefully. This whole thing is clearly a WUM.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:56 pm

Mr Wheeler: check your work!

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:00 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Wales wore black a few years ago in some anniversary celebration. I recall there being good natured ribbing from NZ then too. Why do you guys take everything so personally? You're going to our country, in which we are hosting the RWC and then try to wear the iconic All Black strip? talk about getting down on your knees and begging for it.

A country which still has our flag on it.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:06 pm

nottins wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Wales wore black a few years ago in some anniversary celebration. I recall there being good natured ribbing from NZ then too. Why do you guys take everything so personally? You're going to our country, in which we are hosting the RWC and then try to wear the iconic All Black strip? talk about getting down on your knees and begging for it.

A country which still has our flag on it.

Er, I don't see the cross of St George on the New Zealand flag...

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:17 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Er, I don't see the cross of St George on the New Zealand flag...

So, what's the big Red Cross then ?

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:20 pm

You know what I meant, Nottins. But touché!

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:31 pm

Well the British entered into a treaty with the Maori in about 1840, so I imagine that the presence of the union jack on the NZ flag commemorates that.

I don't recall the NZ entering into a treaty with the RFU any time recently, so could you explain why all those Kiwis are in your rugby team?

by damngoodOvalball Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:40 pm

because they have English parents / grandparents GG.

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:44 pm

TGG there was talk a few years ago of NZ changing its flag, it's still the same..... Also, your Head of State is Queen Elizabeth II.

I've not seen any fruit or birds in the England team. Could you explain why there are so many non New Zealand born players in your rugby team ?

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:46 pm

Typical of Britain's involvement with NZ.

You get a bunch of potent attacking weapons, and we get a bit of cloth in return.

Mind you, the paupers penny and all that.

We appreciate greatly you letting us borrow your little colourful ditty to fill the tiny space in one corner of our flag Wink

The misconception that that the Queen is the head of state is purely a British one, and is due to the fact that the English wording of the treaty that Britain entered into, is different to the meaning of the Maori side of the treaty. Believe me, negotiations are still underway. With any luck there will be a good resolution soon.

by PenfroPete Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:57 pm

Some great pedantic work once again from Nottins

nottins wrote:"'Of all the colours in the rainbow, why would they choose the colour of the host nation?'
He's not very bright is he ? Black isn't a colour of the rainbow. Why are NZ obsessed with England, it#s not as if they picked an away shirt the same colour as England is it ? Was there the same furore in NZ when Wales had their black shirt ?

“Colours of the Rainbow” is an expression. Try telling Mandela that his ‘Rainbow Nation’ isn't the correct phrase because black isn’t in the rainbow. Now, if you wanted to be ultra-uuber-pedantic, you could point out that black isn’t actually a colour, it’s a shade

And there wasn’t the furore when Wales had/have their black shirt because the New Zealanders actually like us Wink

Which probably comes from the fact that we are a guaranteed win for them Whistle

by disneychilly Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:58 pm

Non NZ born but came to NZ as infants and started school in NZ. Beats not being good enough for your birth country and finding out you're eligible to represent another in your 20s.

by damngoodOvalball Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:01 pm

"The misconception that that the Queen is the head of state is purely a British one, and is due to the fact that the English wording of the treaty that Britain entered into, is different to the meaning of the Maori side of the treaty. Believe me, negotiations are still underway. With any luck there will be a good resolution soon.."

that might be wishful thinking on your part GG, but its nonsense nonetheless. The Queen is NZ Head of State. It really is that simple. IT is is not a 'misconception', nor is it only (as you imply) Brits who see HRH as NZ Head of State. There are many monarchists in NZ, just as there are many republicans in Britain. Whatever your personal sentiment regarding the issue, the Queen is Head of State.

These negotiations that you speak of will be ongoing for many years to come. Clearly they will be being treated as highly important by the UN, the British and NZ governments. I expect that every Kiwi man woman and child is on the edge of their seat eagerly awaiting the outcome

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:09 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:
The misconception that that the Queen is the head of state is purely a British one, and is due to the fact that the English wording of the treaty that Britain entered into, is different to the meaning of the Maori side of the treaty.

You're wrong. Again. Your own governement states she is Head of State, she opened your precious parliament in 1995.

by BATH_BTGOG Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:11 pm

There is one advantage for England fans wearing black shirts in NZ that everyone has missed!

Rugby + Beer + More Beer & Rugby + Curry + Beer = vomit

Stains on a nice white shirt!

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:12 pm

disneychilly wrote:Non NZ born but came to NZ as infants and started school in NZ.

So they qualified through residency as the rules allow. I'm glad we're all agreed then. Yahoo

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:15 pm

nottins wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:
The misconception that that the Queen is the head of state is purely a British one, and is due to the fact that the English wording of the treaty that Britain entered into, is different to the meaning of the Maori side of the treaty.

You're wrong. Again. Your own governement states she is Head of State, she opened your precious parliament in 1995.

You are revealing your ignorance of NZ society there I'm affraid Mr Nottins. Stick to things you know about.

by nottins Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:22 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:
nottins wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:
The misconception that that the Queen is the head of state is purely a British one, and is due to the fact that the English wording of the treaty that Britain entered into, is different to the meaning of the Maori side of the treaty.

You're wrong. Again. Your own governement states she is Head of State, she opened your precious parliament in 1995.

You are revealing your ignorance of NZ society there I'm affraid Mr Nottins. Stick to things you know about.

Where am I wrong ?

Queen Elizabeth II is New Zealands Head of State. That's true.

She opened your precious parliament in 1995. That's also true.

You're revealing your ignorance of your country there. I toured your Parliament House in 2005 and the tour guide also stated those facts. You really should try it, you might learn something about your own country.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:25 pm

Pretty sure from a contitutional perspective Nottins is right here. Of course in practice she has no power, but New Zealand is technically a constitutional monarchy is it not and a Member of the Commonwealth, and she is the monarch and Head of the Commonwealth?

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