I'm Getting Nervous

Well, after a couple of days pondering England's performance against Wales, and analysing the players within our squad, I'm starting to get very, very nervous about our chances in NZ.

There seems to have developed, within the rugby world, the idea that no matter how badly we perform in the build up, England will always "come good" for the World Cup. This seems to be based entirely on the fact that after winning the WC in 03, and subsequently playing like useless piles of poop for the next four years, we somehow managed to come within half a chance of winning it again. I do not believe that this is a habit that is likely to continue.

Let's be brutally honest for a second. For all the improvements and guts Ashton's men displayed in 07, we did, to a certain extent, get the luck of the drawer: a quarter-final against Australia is something we're far more comfortable with than most teams, and that Australian side had some clear areas of weakness that just so happened to be our areas of strength. Next, a semi-final against France: another side we've gotten rather comfortable at beating. And finally, a 15-6 loss against a conservative South African side who were playing against a team they KNEW they could beat, AND HAD beaten comfortably a few weeks before. This is nothing to be ashamed of. It's not like any of us expected to be seeing England in that final anyway: we looked crap.

My god, I do sound like a miserable, self-hating pile of balls don't I? Please don't get me wrong: I still believe that England has the players, resources, and character to reemerge as a genuine world force in rugby, but I strongly doubt it's gonna happen this year. We won the 6 Nations which was great, BUT the loss to Ireland cannot be underestimated, and I know it was a relatively untried team last Saturday, but I was seriously underwhelmed by what I saw. I'm very concerned by our inability to take advantage of scoring opportunities, and we generally need to improve the dynamism of EVERYTHING we are doing. Obviously improvements can occur between now and the World Cup, and I'm sure they will, but based on the way we played against Wales I don't think it could be enough. New Zealand are looking unstoppable, and Australia looks far more competent than us. South Africa will be a different animal over the next few weeks and will be deadly in the WC. Right now I just cannot even imagine us winning the WC!

PLEASE TELL ME I'M A WORRYING LITTLE GIRLY MAN, AND THAT ENGLAND ARE GONNA PROVE ME WRONG!!

YOU ARE A WORRYING LITTLE GIRLY MAN, AND ENGLAND WILL PROVE YOU WRONG.



There, do you feel better now?

I wouldnt worry too much, as long as your expectations are not ridiculously high.

England can honestly hope for a semi - spot at best, but will come unstuck against Nz, SA, Aus or France if they meet in KO stages

Please don't get me started on this subject.... I agree with you. I have already talked about certain players I don't think deserve to be in the squad.

The clear weaknesses in my opinion. Backrow balance and centre combo. Both integral to a dynamic and attacking England side.

Nick Easter is the best no 8 we have but would you say he is better than the likes of Harinorduqouy,Parisse,Heaslip,Beattie etc?

The backrow is all about finding the right balance but we aren't there in my opinion.

The centres are in particular not great. Flutey performed poorly on the weekend. Hape is average at best. Tuilagi looked alright on his debut what more can we expect? Tindall was already carried along by Greenwood in my opinion.

Despite all this I absolutely disagree with JDandfries. We are capable of reaching the finals simply because we could avoid SA and NZ. Would get thumped by NZ in the final though.

Expectations are a semi spot.

We were never going to win it anyway.

Countnefarious - that's a great post mate and IMO it is very realistic rather than being -ve. England deservedly won the 6 nations but when we are considering the winning or competing well at the RWC the realists look to the Ireland match and the SA match where Engalnd were totally dominated in both. Of course on their day they can mix it with the best but at the moment if they are not at their best then they might have problems. I'm a bit surprised at the lack of attention being given to the Scotland and Argentina matches which will be big challenges as the recent Scotland match at Twickenham proved. England are on the right road and have some exciting players but I think your post suggests that you are cautiously optimistic rather than being blinded by nationalistic fervour as per the Johnny brigade.

Lets have some perspective....

Both England and Wales were rusty. England dominated the 1st half, Wales the 2nd. However good a comeback it was by Wales, I never ever doubted that we would win.

As for Sam Warburton stating that Wales were fitter than England, I think that this is b**locks. England had the game won at 60 minutes and took their foot off the gas. There will be harder matches to come against Ireland, Scotland and Argentina. They will step it up by then, I have no doubt.

I do not think that England will not win the WC as there are 3 sides better than us.

beshocked, Nz wont win this year, they will bottle it as usual, im going for France or South Africa.

England are limited if they play Wilkinson, and it could end up being England v Scotland in the last group game to see who goes through, Semi-s at best for England, who seem to be determined to ignore the way they played to sucessfuly win the 6N

JDandfries wrote:beshocked, Nz wont win this year, they will bottle it as usual, im going for France or South Africa.

England are limited if they play Wilkinson, and it could end up being England v Scotland in the last group game to see who goes through, Semi-s at best for England, who seem to be determined to ignore the way they played to sucessfuly win the 6N

I suggest that if the community doesn't want to see yet another thread descend into a Holly Wilaboobie-for-tat England v New Zealand grudge-fest that you retract that obvious provocative WUM.

A guy comes on and posts one of the most honest assessments of English rugby in relationship to their RWC performances I've read, and you have to provoke a "NZ chokers" debate again. Childish.

Sorry you feel provoked (and it seems only you have been) - I assume you feel offended by the term bottle - but I offered an honest opinion, that given past history seems pretty logical!

However, what is childish, is your response!

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:I never ever doubted that we would lose.

Er, but you won.

Nope. Silly baseless baiting like "Don't worry NZ will choke" is childish. It serves no purpose.

Firstly I take offence at the tiresome and inaccurate collection of New Zealand's failure to win under the headings "bottling" or "choking" which any body who knows anything about the game knows they're not.

NZ have won as many RWC's as England and more than any other NH team who have not won a world cup collectively.

If you think that "honest, logical opinion" is that post 1987 history will repeat itself, then we may as well shut down the whole site now, because conjecture serves no purpose and all of you clearly have no chance of doing anything but being eliminated at the pool stage while England crank on through a series of poor refereeing decisions before NZ are poisoned in the final and South Africa win by a drop goal without scoring a try.

England "took their foot off the gas" in a game in which players are playing for their place at the RWC - I guess if you want to see it like that; that's your choice.

GreyGhost and JDandfries

Please do not take this debate any further into pointless argument territory. What has been said is now done, move on and debate the topic of the thread as you both seem to want to and have the ability to do in a sensible manner. Overall things have been good over the weekend with some decent debate on the forum and that's the way we want to keep things.

Thank you, and happy posting.

luckless - cheers!

I'm still hungover from Saturday at Twickers.

I am more than happy to do so, however, such conceited responses to what was an honest and easily backed up statement (one which was only offering an opinion on who wins - and my money is where my mouth is on this one) are not necessary and having looked at his thread history debate suffocating

rubyguby personally I feel Wales never seem to play for the full 80. Simply in bursts. If you actually played rugby for 80 minutes you would be a force to be reckoned with! Not trying to wind you up just how I feel.

I knew when it was 20-7 Wales were always going to fight back because it's what you do. Seen it so many times. If the game went on for another 20 minutes you would won by 15 points!

Examples are England vs Wales 2008 and 2010, Wales vs Scotland 2010.

Wales generally seem to play better in the last 20 minutes. I don't know why.

[quote="TheGreyGhost"]Nope. Silly baseless baiting like "Don't worry NZ will choke" is childish. It serves no purpose.

Coming from the king of "silly baseless baiting".

The "choking" tag is based on the fact that in 6 World Cups, NZ have won once, depsite feeling that they have a "divine right" to win it.
It is your national game, and despite this and the fact that you boast some of the top players in the world, your record is poor.
Baed on this, then the "choking" tag is justified.

Dont forget, Big Brother gave you this game...;-)

I shouldn't get involved in this, but who exactly feels that New Zealand have a "divine right" to win the World Cup? I haven't read a single post by a New Zealander saying any such thing.

Not sure devine right is correct, but they are favourites pretty much every time!

luckless, i'm not basing the statement on the posters of 606v2.
I work with countless Kiwis who seem to think that way...

JDandfries wrote:Not sure devine right is correct, but they are favourites pretty much every time!

and look where that gets em!

Beshocked - most of us agree with you on that one so no wind up there. We seldom seem to come out of the blocks quickly. Maybe we're not good enough. Next week we need intensity from start to finsih. I've often thought this was a by-product of poor leadership on the field but I liked the fact that Wales looked a lot more composed and controlled in areas on Saturday rather than the headless chicken approach and I could see players encoraging each other when behind which hasn't happened in the past. There is a young cultural change occuring in welsh rugby and maybe this can affect the playing psyche and overall performance for the better. However the game is played for 80 minutes and if you are playing catch up then you will always have the headline "brave and plucky Wales go down to defeat" - Which is often the truth and I hate it

sorry Dad

At any rate. I think you'll have a better picture of where Eng and Wales stand after the rest of the warm up games. England were an odd-looking animal on the weekend with lots of different combinations, and Wales suffered a pre-match injury that disrupted their pattern. Both sides were clearly rusty, and on the whole the game lacked a certain intensity.

I think this was reflected in the good natured debate during and after the game.

Have to say I thought Shane Williams post-match interview was one of the most gracious, accurate and honest commentaries I've heard in a long while. Perhaps the lack of emotion for him in the result reflected the feelings of the players?

A real friendly after all?

I thought the new Welsh number 10 (sorry, forgotten his name already - old age) looked comfortable at international level and made some good choices.

I continue to worry about England's reliance on crash ball in all situations.

Could be right GG. As you say we should know more after this weekend.

I am rewatching the game again at the moment, and I have to agree with GG that the game lacked intensity at times.

Rustiness could be the cause, as could players having 1 eye on a world cup place and not wanting to be injured, although I think it is fair to say that most injuries come when players go in half hearted and get hurt anyway.

All I know is that both England and Wales will need to up their intensity levels and dynamism if they are to compete with the 3N's sides when the serious business begins in a months timew.

A lot of people have commented on Shanes post-match interview and many seem surprised at his composure and generousity. I'm not sure what their views of Shane was before this interview but he has always been a pretty down to earth and modest guy with the rest of his persona being the creation of those who watch him but don't know him.

Grey Ghost, my concern is that we (Wales) will face a much stronger England this Saturday and that this might have more of a bearing on the result than the fact that we'll be playing at home. We have players to bring in too, of course, but it's still a concern.

Pete, it certainly annoyed me that Wales weren't hitting rucks with any great intensity. We counter-rucked effectively once, but other than that we were content to let England have the ball. And once again, we had forwards standing still taking the ball!

By the way the word is divine not devine.

Ruby guby I do like the look of the Welsh squad in my opinion. There is a lot of promise there. My favourite Welsh player is Warburton, I like the name and he's a good player. Very pleased for Wales that you stayed clear of Henson. Best for you to keep it the way.

I certainly think you have a better way of bringing in players than England at the moment.

I think England are not utilising our bigger player base and resources effectively.

E.g. I would have started Sharples,Botha,brought in Allen or Barritt at inside centre to see what they could do.

Players like Waldrom and Fourie should have been replaced by the likes of Narraway and Saull.

I think you Welsh are happy to try out youngsters more than us English.

When we do try out younger players it generally works so why not more?!

I think expectation is the key beshocked.

There is a weight of expectation on the England team and manager, albeit an unrealistic one. This promotes fear of failure, and in turn a fear of experimenting in case it goes wrong.

"I think you Welsh are happy to try out youngsters more than us English."

Maybe we have to but I thought it was bizarre reading all the papers yesterday and the eulogising of the potential talent of the only 20 year old Tuilagi when on the other side a 19 year old ran in another 2 trys in only his 3rd or 4th international that included 2 against SA. Both camps have reasons to be optimistic but that optimism will really be cranked up this Saturday when I beleive we will have something closer to the real deal. Let the battle commence on the field and not on 606 - Cheers mate

I'm pretty much with Beshocked on this one, the real problem area is the centres with too much ball taken into contact. If they persist in that tactic the only way to play it well would be to pair Banahan with Tuilagi, at least you would have two centres who can break tackles draw in defenders and offload.

The main problem with that is they are both totally inexperienced at Test level so I just don't see that happening.

The backrow is also unbalanced with the lack of an obvious fetcher (Moody doesn't look a safe bet with his knee problem) and real Test quality 8. Haskell played well there on Saturday so should have another run out in Cardiff at the weekend with Croft and Robshaw given a go.

I'm expecting England to struggle at the WC and can see the possibility of a QF exit.

Sorry Count, I think you're right to be concerned.