Who will finish higher in the 2012 six nations table?

For 9 years Ireland were the "nearly" men of the Six Nations before winning the tournament in 2009. I think that they are finally starting to fade. Cracks emerged in 2007 when they beat Georgia in the last minute at the world cup and with tryless recent defeats to Scotland and France they look like they have very little to offer.

ROG, BOD, POC, DOC are not going to be around for much longer. They do have a handful of class players that have emerged in the past season or two, but nowhere near enough in all positions or to have depth. After seeing what Gatland has done in building a squad of players based on youth I believe Wales will replace Ireland as one of top 2 teams in the NH with either England or France.

Gatland has put them out of necessity not choice if it was up to him you would still be playing Jon Thomas & Co

Ireland are a class side with alot of young players waiting , Krusty get out of the goldfish bowl.

I'm picking Wales because I'm Welsh, but I think Ireland have a lot of class and depth in their team and have just as much young talent coming through as Wales do.
The player they should most worry about is Paul O'Connell because he is such a leader, it will be the equivilent of England losing Martin Johnson to be honest.
Personally I don;t think BOD or O'Gara are quite the players they were a few seasons ago, both still World Class but clearly they are on the slide. I'm not sure Ireland will be successful because the difference between Ireland being good and brilliant is normally a last minute O'Gara drop goal and Sexton isn't that type of player. In fact players like O'Gara are few and far between.

Oh yeah we're completely fading. Three out of the last four Heineken cups, consistently above Wales in the Six Nations (congratulations on your fantastic try in the last tournament though) and the European player of the year came out of nowhere this year. Added to that, a 1, 2, 3 in the Magners but I suppose no one takes that league seriously....did Wales even get a team into the 1/4's of the Heineken this year? Seriously, worry about your own team and regions - and you really should. I mean your basing your opinion on two warm up's (one we play an extremely weak team against Scotland and the other away in France and we nearly beat both) - it's just a stupid basis to form your opinion.

A bit of wishful thinking to this article I think....Although I do agree with Alyn on POC. It disturbs me how different we are without him it really does. Still, he has another two seasons at least left in him and that's enough time for Tuouhy, Nagle and Ryan etc to step up. POC is a once in a lifetime player though - his replacement will undoubtedly never be as good as him.

mrsuperclear wrote:Oh yeah we're completely fading. Three out of the last four Heineken cups, consistently above Wales in the Six Nations (congratulations on your fantastic try in the last tournament though) and the European player of the year came out of nowhere this year. Added to that, a 1, 2, 3 in the Magners but I suppose no one takes that league seriously....did Wales even get a team into the 1/4's of the Heineken this year? Seriously, worry about your own team and regions - and you really should. I mean your basing your opinion on two warm up's (one we play an extremely weak team against Scotland and the other away in France and we nearly beat both) - it's just a stupid basis to form your opinion.

A bit of wishful thinking to this article I think....Although I do agree with Alyn on POC. It disturbs me how different we are without him it really does. Still, he has another two seasons at least left in him and that's enough time for Tuouhy, Nagle and Ryan etc to step up. POC is a once in a lifetime player though - his replacement will undoubtedly never be as good as him.

You do know for a fact Krusty is Welsh do you? lol
Seems your risking irritating Welsh people on a guess...
Also Seems you've become incensed on a topic which is a reasonable debate for discussion, to be fair Wales did beat Ireland this year and that wasn't the only ever Irish game where something a bit dodgy happened.

I personally think Sexton will be better than ROG ever was. O'Connell has at least 3 or 4 seasons left in him. O'Driscoll will be irreplaceable, but like you said, he isn't the player he once was. He's lost a good bit of pace. When he retires we'll just have to get our inspiration from other players not in the 13 jersey.

There's some very good young players coming through in the Irish provinces, that haven't been capped yet, especially in Leinster and Ulster, but also Munster. Some of these youngsters helped Leinster, Munster and Ulster finish ahead of all the Welsh teams in the Magners and go further than any Welsh team in the Heineken Cup.

The big advantage for Ireland over Wales is in the strength of our provincial game compared to the Welsh regions. You look at the large crowds and silverware in Irish rugby compared to the half empty stadiums, poor results and players leaving for France in the Welsh game, and you have to worry that the Welsh will get left behind. Which won't be good for the Pro12.

AlynDavies wrote:You do know for a fact Krusty is Welsh do you? lol
Seems your risking irritating Welsh people on a guess...
Also Seems you've become incensed on a topic which is a reasonable debate for discussion, to be fair Wales did beat Ireland this year and that wasn't the only ever Irish game where something a bit dodgy happened.

Is he not Welsh? Ah these evil WUM's just keep on coming don't they? We have our own lad roaming around causing trouble to be fair (I'm sure you know his name!). Ah, fair enough, I was a little mean, but my policy with provocative articles is to give it back with a cruel dose of hard facts mixed in.

Ah everything is debatable really though. I'll give you Wales were impressive in their warm up's but I'd add that England were utterly clueless. Shouldn't take away from the Welsh performance though - they were very good. I wouldn't re-watch that last six nations game if you paid me - was one of the worst matches ever. Both teams were terrible and I don't think either deserved to win to be honest. Could Wales finish above Ireland next year? Yes. Do I think it's more likely that Ireland will? Absolutely. I'll leave it at that - but the argument that we're fading is quite optimistic in my view. We have more depth than ever and as long as we don't get a PDV put in charge I think we'll be fine.

I think they are in transition and that might make them a bit more suspect (might) - I actually think the Ireland England game is equally imortant to Ireland as they have expectations here. The fervour and passion that was there to stop an english Slam was evident and not many teams would have lived with Ireland on that day. A week Saturday I am expecting them to sneak past England - Anything less and it gives more credibility to the headline of the thread. Fascinating stuff but the guy is only asking a question so no need to be overly toxic.

flyhalffactory wrote:Gatland has put them out of necessity not choice if it was up to him you would still be playing Jon Thomas & Co

Actually, if Gatland had his way, he would be playing Gareth Edwards.

Every few months there seems to be an article about Ireland fading as the acronyms retire.

I guess one of these articles will be correct eventually, but not for the moment. There's plenty of talent coming through and the Irish set up means the provinces and players are, by and large, managed very cannily.

I think we may fall behind France and England in the future if we go into transition, but I've seen nothing to suggest the young players coming out of their provinces are worse than the young guys in Italy, Scotland or Wales. If anything the fact we took the top three spots in the ML last year whilst giving loads of young players gametime is very encouraging. I expect the Welsh to hit back this year but we are always going to be at their level

I don;t expect us to finish any lower than third next year. The guys you say are retiring will all be playing this season anyway. We'll struggle to replace O'Driscoll and O'Connell, of course, but they'll all play in the Six Nations this year.

On a more serious note:

mrsuperclear wrote:Although I do agree with Alyn on POC. It disturbs me how different we are without him it really does. Still, he has another two seasons at least left in him and that's enough time for Tuouhy, Nagle and Ryan etc to step up. POC is a once in a lifetime player though - his replacement will undoubtedly never be as good as him.

Agree, even when O'Connell was recovering from injury and playing his way back into shape, he adds grit and solidity to his team. A terrific leader. Can change a match simply by being on the pitch.

i went for wales just looking at some of the talent comming through. (however i dont know the irish talent coming through its just ireland will lose more class player than wales will lose)

with the likes of hook, byrne, phillips etc growing with experience and players such as warbs, lydiate, priestland, Toby f, tovey, steffan jones, scott williams, matthew morgan (maybe a bit soon) i think this will be an exciting few years for wales,
however wales will lose the invaluable experience of players such as stephen jones, martyn williams and the invaluable skills of the one man legend-shane.

A bit premature to suggest this and even think that far ahead. Lets see how both do at the World Cup first then see who steps down after that tournament.

[quote="welshy824"]i went for wales just looking at some of the talent comming through. (however i dont know the irish talent coming through its just ireland will lose more class player than wales will lose)quote]

No offence mate but I think thats because we have more world class then you if I'm honest

Feckless Rogue wrote:I personally think Sexton will be better than ROG ever was. O'Connell has at least 3 or 4 seasons left in him. O'Driscoll will be irreplaceable, but like you said, he isn't the player he once was. He's lost a good bit of pace. When he retires we'll just have to get our inspiration from other players not in the 13 jersey.

There's some very good young players coming through in the Irish provinces, that haven't been capped yet, especially in Leinster and Ulster, but also Munster. Some of these youngsters helped Leinster, Munster and Ulster finish ahead of all the Welsh teams in the Magners and go further than any Welsh team in the Heineken Cup.

The big advantage for Ireland over Wales is in the strength of our provincial game compared to the Welsh regions. You look at the large crowds and silverware in Irish rugby compared to the half empty stadiums, poor results and players leaving for France in the Welsh game, and you have to worry that the Welsh will get left behind. Which won't be good for the Pro12.

I'll take your word for it, but to me Sexton looks a lot weaker than O'Gara overall. He is far to prone to erratic form, and successful teams need consistency.
I'll be honest I'm an Ospreys season ticket holder, and am going up to Newport to watch the Dragons also tomorrow, but most Welsh fans really don't give a damn for club or regional rugby. They will turn out in big numbers to watch Welsh teams play Welsh teams, but not to be insulting aren't interested in Irish, Scottish or Italian sides.
Rugby wise the Welsh are only interested in Wales, and only really the 6 Nations. Half the people in the country will be wearing red for a 6 Nations game, more against England but week to week, you will find the vast majority of people discussing the English Premiership football. Though very oddly no one gives a toss if the Wales national football team is playing. Wales played Australia the other day in football and no one seemed to know there was a game on, and only 6,373 people turned up for it. When you consider 22,639 watched thee Cardiff City Vs Bristol game at the weekend, at the same ground, it puts it in perspective. It doesn't make a lot of sense but that's what the situation is.

doctor_grey wrote:Actually, if Gatland had his way, he would be playing Gareth Edwards.

Hey - not a bad call! GE would be a better scrum half than most international 9s even now!

There really does seem to be a dearth of quality operators in ALL countries right now.

Phillips for Wales is one dimensional even at his best, and he has been operating at below par for a good 18 months now but we have no-one really ready to challenge him for the shirt.

England have several scrum halves, all of whom have one or more areas of weakness to their game.

New Zealand pick Cowan - 'nuff said

Bring Back Gareth!

I think Yachvilli and Parra are fantastic scrum-halves. South Africa also have a list of quality scrum-halves. No dearth in those two countries. Wales' operator situation is good too tbh.

Ireland better not be force of the past.
About 4 months ago I earmarked the 17 th september Australia game as a must see, and paid nearly $300 bucks for the privilege. from their performances over the couple of weeks I hope they are at least competitive.

Yes they will miss POC and BOD when they do call it a day (probably more so with POC than BOD), but with players like Murray, Felix Jones, Ryan, McFadden coming through added to SOB, Ferris, Heaslip, Healy, Bowe, Trimble, Earls, & Sexton then I can't see them struggling for too long. Every team struggles when major players retire (like the Aus cricket team!) but I can't see them struggling like England did after 2003. I think both teams have some good talent going to be coming through in the next couple of years.

Were they really a force in the past? They did win a 6 Nations but didn't back it up.

Personally I think O'Gara is too limited as a player and it would be good for Ireland to move on. BOD has been real world class IMO and clearly POC is rated in the NH but I haven't seen him enough to know.

To me the Irish will always be competitive, but lets look at facts here, Brian O'Driscoll was probably the best centre in the world in his prime, and easily the best in the NH. Are the players coming through going to reach such dizzy heights ? You had a world class forward in John Hayes, and a power house behind the front row in Paul O'Connell, Peter Stringer was arguably one of the best no 9's in Britain and Ireland, and Ronan O'Gara was probably one of the best no 10's. Add to that players like Shane Horgan, Gordon D'Arcy, who could have got into any other six nations team and do you think that Ireland have players of that calibre breaking through ? I watch a lot of rugby during the season down in Cardiff and on t.v and I can honestly say that outside the centrally contracted players for Ireland I do not see any players of the calibre I have mentioned breaking through. O.k there are some with potential, but I do not think that Sexton is anywhere near O'Gara, I am thinking of a game a few years ago at Welford Rd a couple of years ago when O'Gara won the game for Munster and the drop goals against Wales when you won the grand slam. I will probably get a slamming from the Irish for saying this, but although I do not think they are not a force, they certainly are not the force they were a couple of years ago when the regularly thrashed Wales by 30 or 40 points, and before people go on about the top three finish in the league, if you take the foreign imports out of your regions I very much doubt you would be as successful as you are now. The likes of Mafi, Howlett, Warwick, and the countless South Africans at Ulster really do make a difference. After all this is a debate and this is just my opinion, so please feel free to disagree

B91212,
Agree there is good talent coming through for Ireland. Almost makes the RWC seem a year early?

Ireland haven't really ever been a force but they have never been particularly rubbish unlike some of the other sides. They float around 4th-6th consistently. I think they will stay there. They have a good side in my opinion.

The Welsh think after beating an average/poor England side at home they will be a top team? Long way to go.

MJ is finding out now that he was incredibly stupid to leave out the two best inside centres in the AP out of the England squad.

Just an afterthought to my origonal post, perhaps it is more of a case that everyone else is getting a little better rather than Ireland going backwards.

When did they regularly thrash Wales by 30 or 40 points? There's very little between these 2 teams at present, very little

infairness POC is 31. he is hardly finished. he is only hitting his prime for his position.

For those that say Sexton is not as consistant as ROG you could be right but as why.

ROG has over 100 international caps and has the experience to be consistant.

he wasn't always consistant like he is now. it is something that came with time and caps.

if wales are being honest there has been no reason to suggest that wales will be better than ireland in the next 5 years.

Club sides have been pants consistantly bar the blues who got to the HC semi's once and won the amlin. Woop di do.

The majority of our key players are in there prime or younger (Bowe, Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Sexton, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Best, Healy, Kearney, Reddan etc.) and the main 'golden oldies' like BOD, ROG, David Wallace and POC are all committed to playing on beyond the WC and all are in excellent form so I think it's a bit premature to be writing us off as a NH force.

There's a lot of exciting young players coming through in the provinces and the depth we have is far greater than it's ever been, to the point that a lot of top players won't make the WC squad let alone the 1st XV.

Certain positions are a real concern, particularly tight head prop but over all I think the future is looking pretty bright for Irish rugby.

caoimhincentre sorry to be pedantic but it's spelt consistent not consistant. At least you are being consistent in spelling it wrong.

Ireland are better than Wales. Have been better than them at club level for a considerable time.You could argue Ireland are better than England at international and club level too.

The side Ireland struggles with the most is France.

Thanks beshocked.

pity i couldn't use the excuse of the "a" being beside the "e" and my finger sliped.

France tend to be a problem for some unknown reason. often we lose rather than france winning. Just look at the last two games we played against them

Ireland are an 80 minute team, Wales are not.

There, my friends, is the difference.

I went for Ireland. Promising though the new Welsh back row is, the Irish one is still better, and although Ireland have a couple of fading forces, I think they have a good club structure which allows the younger players to come through.

At the moment there's no question Ireland are a better side, and I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that's going to change.

Yes , Ireland are a spent force. But were we ever a force in world terms?

I agree that BOD and POC are in their early 30's.

In terms of France, well, of course beshocked is right.

Imagine only beating an International team once since 2003, hey beshocked? That would be CAT now wouldn't it....

Ireland. Only because they've got Heaslip and O'Brien. They could have a team of 13 Hapes and still win games.

I would love to think Wales but I still don't think we're out of the woods. We had a great defensive display against a team with nothing in midfield. England really need James Simpson Daniel or someone to spark a bit of something.

Ireland have genuine class in their team alongside a lot of experience while Wales have some massive potential. It will certainly be an interesting six nations and I expect to see some new faces coming through for all the home nations.

I personally think ireland's best is yet to come. If you think of the success they are having at their regional teams, it would suggest depth in player numbers.

We all know these days you need at least 45 class players to perform consistently well at international level.

Look at their recent results:

Aug 13, 2011 Ireland tour France 19 - 12 Ireland
Aug 6, 2011 Ireland tour Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland
Mar 19, 2011 Six Nations / Millennium Trophy Ireland 24 - 8 England
Mar 12, 2011 Six Nations Wales 19 - 13 Ireland
Feb 27, 2011 Six Nations Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland
Feb 13, 2011 Six Nations Ireland 22 - 25 France
Feb 5, 2011 Six Nations Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
Nov 28, 2010 Argentina tour Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Nov 20, 2010 New Zealand tour Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand
Nov 13, 2010 Samoa tour Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
Nov 6, 2010 South Africa tour Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Jun 26, 2010 Ireland tour / Lansdowne Cup Australia 22 - 15 Ireland
Jun 18, 2010 Ireland tour New Zealand Maori 31 - 28 Ireland
Jun 12, 2010 Ireland tour New Zealand 66 - 28 Ireland
Jun 4, 2010 Ireland 23 - 29 Barbarians
Mar 20, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland
Mar 13, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 27 - 12 Wales
Feb 27, 2010 Six Nations / Millennium Trophy England 16 - 20 Ireland
Feb 13, 2010 Six Nations France 33 - 10 Ireland
Feb 6, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 29 - 11 Italy


The only high ranked team they have beaten is England, and they always do that. Its a pretty rank record by anyones standards.

Were they ever really an interational"force" though? Consistently decent in the 6 nations, one grand slam made them a force in Europe but they have never looked like seriously challenging the Sanzars except always doing well against SA at home.
They were only brefily the undisputable best team in Europe ( currently I dont think any of them can claim to be genuinly good, so even being the best isnt much of an accolade)

I would still expect them to keep challenging for the 6 nations. Theres no real sign of a major sustained downturn. It would be a shock if the dont get out of their WC group this time. It would be a shock if they got to the final though.

mckay1402 wrote:I would love to think Wales but I still don't think we're out of the woods. We had a great defensive display against a team with nothing in midfield. England really need James Simpson Daniel or someone to spark a bit of something.

Ireland have genuine class in their team alongside a lot of experience while Wales have some massive potential. It will certainly be an interesting six nations and I expect to see some new faces coming through for all the home nations.

I think thats the nail on the head. I was very impressed wit5h Wales physicality against England. They looked strong. Wales could very well challenge the Boks at the WC and definitely target a GS next year.

However, England are a toothless team with not much going for it. A disaster in the center despite the hype.

Wales should set their sights higher than beating England, as should Ireland.

Boyne wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:I would love to think Wales but I still don't think we're out of the woods. We had a great defensive display against a team with nothing in midfield. England really need James Simpson Daniel or someone to spark a bit of something.

Ireland have genuine class in their team alongside a lot of experience while Wales have some massive potential. It will certainly be an interesting six nations and I expect to see some new faces coming through for all the home nations.

I think thats the nail on the head. I was very impressed wit5h Wales physicality against England. They looked strong. Wales could very well challenge the Boks at the WC and definitely target a GS next year.

However, England are a toothless team with not much going for it. A disaster in the center despite the hype.

Wales should set their sights higher than beating England, as should Ireland.

It's a shame that neither have ever consistently beaten any of the SH sides....

Boyne

Couldn't agree more and I think that the players and coaches do set their sights higher but some parochial fans still can't see past beating England. I don't even think it's because they think England are so good it's a target to aim at it's just fun to wind them up.

Ireland have a more strength in depth than they ever have had realistically

Healy, Court, McCallister, Horan
Flannery, best, Cronin, Strauss
Ross, Buckley, Hayes, Hagan
POC, Cullen, Nagle, Toner
DOC, Ryan, Tuohy
SOB, Ferris, McLaughlin, Henry
Wallace, Jennings, Ryan, Ronan
Heaslip, Leamy, Ruddock, Coughlan
Reddan, Murray, TOL, Boss, Williams
Sexton, ROG, Humphreys, Keatley
Earls, Fitzgerald, Carr, Zebo, J. Murphy
Darcy, Wallace, McFadden, Marshall
BOD, Spence, O'Malley, Macken, Griffin, Barnes
Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Horgan
Kearney, Jones, Duffy, Darcy, Murphy

Yeah I think we are doing ok realistically.

ROG was irreplacable, yet, Sexton has replaced him
Hayes was irreplaceable, yet, Ross has replaced him

POC and BOD will be huge losses but we have a good Union in terms of looking ahead and player welfare, our provinces are doing well and their academies are doing well too.

BOD and POC's replacements will not be their standard but you never know maybe they will excell, Spence has had an amazing first season, Earls has been doing ok at 13, O'Malley when he was playing was excellent. Tuohy and Ryan have been going well too.

With the Wales Ireland game in Dublin I'd be expecting a victory

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Look at their recent results:

Aug 13, 2011 Ireland tour France 19 - 12 Ireland
Aug 6, 2011 Ireland tour Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland
Mar 19, 2011 Six Nations / Millennium Trophy Ireland 24 - 8 England
Mar 12, 2011 Six Nations Wales 19 - 13 Ireland
Feb 27, 2011 Six Nations Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland
Feb 13, 2011 Six Nations Ireland 22 - 25 France
Feb 5, 2011 Six Nations Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
Nov 28, 2010 Argentina tour Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Nov 20, 2010 New Zealand tour Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand
Nov 13, 2010 Samoa tour Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
Nov 6, 2010 South Africa tour Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Jun 26, 2010 Ireland tour / Lansdowne Cup Australia 22 - 15 Ireland
Jun 18, 2010 Ireland tour New Zealand Maori 31 - 28 Ireland
Jun 12, 2010 Ireland tour New Zealand 66 - 28 Ireland
Jun 4, 2010 Ireland 23 - 29 Barbarians
Mar 20, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland
Mar 13, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 27 - 12 Wales
Feb 27, 2010 Six Nations / Millennium Trophy England 16 - 20 Ireland
Feb 13, 2010 Six Nations France 33 - 10 Ireland
Feb 6, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 29 - 11 Italy


The only high ranked team they have beaten is England, and they always do that. Its a pretty rank record by anyones standards.

I don't know that's a pretty good record by Welsh standards . Cleary the performances have not been up to scratch and the win /loss record is unacceptable but we have been bedding in new players, so perhaps have lacked the consistancy we've had in the past. Even with the patchy form we've still been competitive and fairly dominant in nearly every game so there's no reason to panic just yet.

I think Wales are a good side with plenty of talented players. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a better WC than us and even finish above us in the 6N.

However I think we have a better domestic infrastructure, depth and generally speaking a better core group of players than Wales, so I don't see any reason to believe that they will overtake us on a consistant basis in the coming seasons although I think there is very little between the two sides best XV's.

There is very little between Ireland, Wales and England at the moment as recent results have shown, that includes the 6 Nations. Anyone guessing as to the future is just guessing and each nation at the very moment has genuine room for optimism.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ireland have a more strength in depth than they ever have had realistically

Healy, Court, McCallister, Horan
Flannery, best, Cronin, Strauss
Ross, Buckley, Hayes, Hagan
POC, Cullen, Nagle, Toner
DOC, Ryan, Tuohy
SOB, Ferris, McLaughlin, Henry
Wallace, Jennings, Ryan, Ronan
Heaslip, Leamy, Ruddock, Coughlan
Reddan, Murray, TOL, Boss, Williams
Sexton, ROG, Humphreys, Keatley
Earls, Fitzgerald, Carr, Zebo, J. Murphy
Darcy, Wallace, McFadden, Marshall
BOD, Spence, O'Malley, Macken, Griffin, Barnes
Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Horgan
Kearney, Jones, Duffy, Darcy, Murphy

It's all looking good Pete apart from the highlighted row. I've been having sleepless nights about it since the France game. If Ross gets injured we are fecked no matter who we play.

Buckey is the biggest waste of space and talent I've ever seen and although Hayes had a decent end of the season, if we flog him any more we'll be done for cruelty to OAP's.

Wales certainly have better front row options than us, mind you that wouldn't be hard.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ireland have a more strength in depth than they ever have had realistically

Healy, Court, McCallister, Horan
Flannery, best, Cronin, Strauss
Ross, Buckley, Hayes, Hagan
POC, Cullen, Nagle, Toner
DOC, Ryan, Tuohy
SOB, Ferris, McLaughlin, Henry
Wallace, Jennings, Ryan, Ronan
Heaslip, Leamy, Ruddock, Coughlan
Reddan, Murray, TOL, Boss, Williams
Sexton, ROG, Humphreys, Keatley
Earls, Fitzgerald, Carr, Zebo, J. Murphy
Darcy, Wallace, McFadden, Marshall
BOD, Spence, O'Malley, Macken, Griffin, Barnes
Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Horgan
Kearney, Jones, Duffy, Darcy, Murphy

It's all looking good Pete apart from the highlighted row. I've been having sleepless nights about it since the France game. If Ross gets injured we are fecked no matter who we play.

Buckey is the biggest waste of space and talent I've ever seen and although Hayes had a decent end of the season, if we flog him any more we'll be done for cruelty to OAP's.

Wales certainly have better front row options than us, mind you that wouldn't be hard.

Go easy on the abuse of Buckley. It seems his wife is ill (cancer) and one of the reasons why he moved to Sale because a) 3 year contract an b) good medical resources there. As far as I know they have two very young children.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ireland have a more strength in depth than they ever have had realistically

Healy, Court, McCallister, Horan
Flannery, best, Cronin, Strauss
Ross, Buckley, Hayes, Hagan
POC, Cullen, Nagle, Toner
DOC, Ryan, Tuohy
SOB, Ferris, McLaughlin, Henry
Wallace, Jennings, Ryan, Ronan
Heaslip, Leamy, Ruddock, Coughlan
Reddan, Murray, TOL, Boss, Williams
Sexton, ROG, Humphreys, Keatley
Earls, Fitzgerald, Carr, Zebo, J. Murphy
Darcy, Wallace, McFadden, Marshall
BOD, Spence, O'Malley, Macken, Griffin, Barnes
Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Horgan
Kearney, Jones, Duffy, Darcy, Murphy

It's all looking good Pete apart from the highlighted row. I've been having sleepless nights about it since the France game. If Ross gets injured we are fecked no matter who we play.

Buckey is the biggest waste of space and talent I've ever seen and although Hayes had a decent end of the season, if we flog him any more we'll be done for cruelty to OAP's.

Wales certainly have better front row options than us, mind you that wouldn't be hard.

Go easy on the abuse of Buckley. It seems his wife is ill (cancer) and one of the reasons why he moved to Sale because a) 3 year contract an b) good medical resources there. As far as I know they have two very young children.

Really??!! Jeez that's cat. Hope it works out for him.

I think we have had 32 Irish people voting and 13 welsh fans so far

I guess the best way to settle the argument is to look at the last game between Wales and Ireland which Wales won. Because that is really the only gauge at which you can judge form and current ability.
Clearly there was some controvesy but even if the touch judge had made the correct call there is no way of knowing if Ireland would of still lost, and as Wales pointed out a forward pass was missed which eventually results in an Ireland penalty, so taking away 3 from Ireland, and 7 from Wales still results in a 12-10 Welsh win.

But if you look at this generation of players, Welsh against the Irish players, which is roughly 4 seasons (a world cup cycle), then Wales and Ireland are 2 wins each. So in fairness their balanced.

The 4 Provinces / Regions in both countries are hammering out a conveyor belt of talent, which is fantastic for both countries. I think supporters of both countries can look forward to a topsy turvey rivalry in future years and a lot of quality players on show, which can only be good for both of us.
It would probably be better to discuss what solutions there are on how to get Scotland back to level with us consistently, than having Welsh and Irish fans turning on each other.

If you look at form over 10 years then Ireland have won 7 to Wales 3.
Though Wales are well ahead historically on 63 wins to 47.

Sin é wrote:
Go easy on the abuse of Buckley. It seems his wife is ill (cancer) and one of the reasons why he moved to Sale because a) 3 year contract an b) good medical resources there. As far as I know they have two very young children.

Fair point sin, I wasn't aware off that.

I can only go by his on field performance and for such a monster off a man he can be infuriatingly passive at times and that's without even taking into account his awful scrummaging. I hope the Sale move can be a new start for him because we desperately need more front row options.

It goes without saying that I hope things work out ok in his personal life too.

"It would probably be better to discuss what solutions there are on how to get Scotland back to level with us consistently, than having Welsh and Irish fans turning on each other."

Yeah I think that is a much more pressing concern they are getting worse and worse. Alyn a new article if you please?