Who will finish higher in the 2012 six nations table?

First topic message reminder :

For 9 years Ireland were the "nearly" men of the Six Nations before winning the tournament in 2009. I think that they are finally starting to fade. Cracks emerged in 2007 when they beat Georgia in the last minute at the world cup and with tryless recent defeats to Scotland and France they look like they have very little to offer.

ROG, BOD, POC, DOC are not going to be around for much longer. They do have a handful of class players that have emerged in the past season or two, but nowhere near enough in all positions or to have depth. After seeing what Gatland has done in building a squad of players based on youth I believe Wales will replace Ireland as one of top 2 teams in the NH with either England or France.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Go easy on the abuse of Buckley. It seems his wife is ill (cancer) and one of the reasons why he moved to Sale because a) 3 year contract an b) good medical resources there. As far as I know they have two very young children.

Fair point sin, I wasn't aware off that.

I can only go by his on field performance and for such a monster off a man he can be infuriatingly passive at times and that's without even taking into account his awful scrummaging. I hope the Sale move can be a new start for him because we desperately need more front row options.

It goes without saying that I hope things work out ok in his personal life too.

I know you were not aware of it and I wouldn't have mentioned it, but I think the abuse he gets is way over the top for even his performances. His wife has been ill since about xmas and while its no excuse for his inconsistent performances, its understandable that he isn't playing great rugby.

His performances don't warrant the abuse he gets either. Ross was destroyed by Poux as well at the weekend. How come he isn't getting a bit of stick? Healy has done superbly by the way. If any of our props deserve a clap on the back, its him.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:"It would probably be better to discuss what solutions there are on how to get Scotland back to level with us consistently, than having Welsh and Irish fans turning on each other."

Yeah I think that is a much more pressing concern they are getting worse and worse. Alyn a new article if you please?

AD/pete, very generous of you fellas to be so worried about us, but in all honestly I think we're already making the right moves: new administration in place, with a much clearer understanding of how to develop the game in addition to controlling the costs, (slowly) improving national performances, sensible club structure, much healthier age-group results, etc. Give us time, we'll get there!

Lets not forget Scotland win in Dublin last year as well - Greta effort

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:Ireland are an 80 minute team, Wales are not.

There, my friends, is the difference.

Wales are now. Trust me. They are.

Ireland aren't an 80 minute team. We usually play in spurts,we saw that at the weekend.

Sin é wrote:
I know you were not aware of it and I wouldn't have mentioned it, but I think the abuse he gets is way over the top for even his performances. His wife has been ill since about xmas and while its no excuse for his inconsistent performances, its understandable that he isn't playing great rugby.

His performances don't warrant the abuse he gets either. Ross was destroyed by Poux as well at the weekend. How come he isn't getting a bit of stick? Healy has done superbly by the way. If any of our props deserve a clap on the back, its him.

Sin I don't want to discuss Buckley's personal life any further. I take your word for what is happening and really hope things work out well.

Buckley has never delivered consistantly in his career. Ross had a tough time but when he went off we barely won a scrum. When Buckley is up against small, powerful scrummagers he gets mangled. I the loose he can be awesome but doesn't deliver consistantly enough in the loose either.

Healy has done fantastic but I think we have guys like Court, Horan and even Buckley who can do a decent job at loosehead in Healys abasence but we really don't have anyone even adequate to cover TH at all.

Buckley nearly moved to Bath around 3 or 4 seasons ago,I think that would have helped his career a lot. A shame it didn't go through.

roddersm wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Look at their recent results:

Aug 13, 2011 Ireland tour France 19 - 12 Ireland
Aug 6, 2011 Ireland tour Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland
Mar 19, 2011 Six Nations / Millennium Trophy Ireland 24 - 8 England
Mar 12, 2011 Six Nations Wales 19 - 13 Ireland
Feb 27, 2011 Six Nations Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland
Feb 13, 2011 Six Nations Ireland 22 - 25 France
Feb 5, 2011 Six Nations Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
Nov 28, 2010 Argentina tour Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Nov 20, 2010 New Zealand tour Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand
Nov 13, 2010 Samoa tour Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
Nov 6, 2010 South Africa tour Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Jun 26, 2010 Ireland tour / Lansdowne Cup Australia 22 - 15 Ireland
Jun 18, 2010 Ireland tour New Zealand Maori 31 - 28 Ireland
Jun 12, 2010 Ireland tour New Zealand 66 - 28 Ireland
Jun 4, 2010 Ireland 23 - 29 Barbarians
Mar 20, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland
Mar 13, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 27 - 12 Wales
Feb 27, 2010 Six Nations / Millennium Trophy England 16 - 20 Ireland
Feb 13, 2010 Six Nations France 33 - 10 Ireland
Feb 6, 2010 Six Nations Ireland 29 - 11 Italy


The only high ranked team they have beaten is England, and they always do that. Its a pretty rank record by anyones standards.

I don't know that's a pretty good record by Welsh standards . Cleary the performances have not been up to scratch and the win /loss record is unacceptable but we have been bedding in new players, so perhaps have lacked the consistancy we've had in the past. Even with the patchy form we've still been competitive and fairly dominant in nearly every game so there's no reason to panic just yet.

I think Wales are a good side with plenty of talented players. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a better WC than us and even finish above us in the 6N.

However I think we have a better domestic infrastructure, depth and generally speaking a better core group of players than Wales, so I don't see any reason to believe that they will overtake us on a consistant basis in the coming seasons although I think there is very little between the two sides best XV's.

Yeah thats pretty much what wee've been saying since 2003.....

Being better than Wales isnt much of an ambition is it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Being better than Wales isnt much of an ambition is it.

Well England's ambition is to be better than Ireland but that one doesn't really work for us

roddersm wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Being better than Wales isnt much of an ambition is it.

Well England's ambition is to be better than Ireland but that one doesn't really work for us

England are better than Ireland against some other sides, just not better than Ireland against Ireland (if that makes sense!)

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I know you were not aware of it and I wouldn't have mentioned it, but I think the abuse he gets is way over the top for even his performances. His wife has been ill since about xmas and while its no excuse for his inconsistent performances, its understandable that he isn't playing great rugby.

His performances don't warrant the abuse he gets either. Ross was destroyed by Poux as well at the weekend. How come he isn't getting a bit of stick? Healy has done superbly by the way. If any of our props deserve a clap on the back, its him.

Sin I don't want to discuss Buckley's personal life any further. I take your word for what is happening and really hope things work out well.

Buckley has never delivered consistantly in his career. Ross had a tough time but when he went off we barely won a scrum. When Buckley is up against small, powerful scrummagers he gets mangled. I the loose he can be awesome but doesn't deliver consistantly enough in the loose either.

Healy has done fantastic but I think we have guys like Court, Horan and even Buckley who can do a decent job at loosehead in Healys abasence but we really don't have anyone even adequate to cover TH at all.

TBH, there is very little between Court and Buckley and the only reason he is on the plane is that he can supposedly cover both sides. Every time Court has come on as a sub, he has been very poor.

roddersm wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Being better than Wales isnt much of an ambition is it.

Well England's ambition is to be better than Ireland but that one doesn't really work for us

Well maybe if Ireland tried against teams other than SA and England than their resulsts wouldnt be so bad. It worlked when they did it for a year.

I haven't voted because I simply don't know.

I'm still trying to evaluate last weekend's MS experience. My waters tell me that that it's best not to make a judgement over E and I and W until the RWC is over.

None of the three sides are capable of making a true impact in NZ, but the better they perform, the worse will be their prospects iyearsn the following four years if you see what I mean. Certainly England and Ireland ought to dispatch their oldies to the pensioners' club asap - starting with the first game in the spring.

There is a perception out there that ireland are a team of oldies. but its not true. the majority of the first team are in their mid 20's.

But there is a core of essential oldies no?

caoimhincentre wrote:There is a perception out there that ireland are a team of oldies. but its not true. the majority of the first team are in their mid 20's.

Ah, but Ireland need the acronyms to come through. Once you lose POC, DOC, BOD and ROG you only seem to have TOL and SOB. Shorn of many of these Samsonian acronyms you may be in trouble.

BOD 32, POC, DOC 31, Hardly old for a lock RoSS 30 hardly old for a prop and wallace 34.

POC could easily be a starter in the next world cup. same goes for Ross and DOC.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Well maybe if Ireland tried against teams other than SA and England than their resulsts wouldnt be so bad. It worlked when they did it for a year.

And if England could beat a top side other than France and Australia then their results might look a bit better too but hey we can't have it all .

Portnoy wrote:But there is a core of essential oldies no?

No there is a core of essential players. The fact that a few of them are getting old in sporting terms is coincidental and not a problem that is uniquely Irish.

Portnoy wrote:

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:Ireland are an 80 minute team, Wales are not.

There, my friends, is the difference.

Wales are now. Trust me. They are.

How's this?

That list of results is depressing. This group of players went unbeaten in 2009. Like South Africa, we were masters of the old tackle laws. But since the tackle interpretations changed we have struggled. And so have South Africa actually.

Unlike South Africa we have been trying to change our style of play to suit the new laws. And it hasn't been working out very well. We keep hearing about Ireland wanting to play running rugby, but we keep kicking the ball away nearly every time we get our hands on it. Our lineout has also deteriorated under Gert Smal. It used to be one of the best in the world. Now we can barely win our own ball let alone challenge the oppositions.

We have a lot of difficulty holding onto possession, and end up defending for large periods of every game we play. This is a recipe for disaster against our World Cup opponents Australia. I think we have the players to be a very good team. But I have to say I was disappointed when our coaches got a 2 year contract extension just before the World Cup.

Les Kiss has done a great job on our defence. But Gert Smal has brought nothing. Our pack has gotten worse. We also have a discipline problem. And I don't think Declan Kidney is the man to evolve Ireland's game to the more attacking style required under the new tackle laws.

Our only glimmer of hope is our excellent performance against England in Dublin in the 6 Nations. But we haven't played that well at any other point in the last two seasons. So I don't understand why people are pointing to that one game as evidence of our greatness. Any team can play superbly once every two years.

Jeez. that was a very negative post, but that's how I currently feel about the Ireland team.

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:Ireland are an 80 minute team, Wales are not.

There, my friends, is the difference.

Wales are now. Trust me. They are.

How's this?

The way they played against England over the last two weekends did not exactly represent a side that faded after the first sixty minutes.

I'll take your word for it, but to me Sexton looks a lot weaker than O'Gara overall. He is far to prone to erratic form, and successful teams need [/quote]

A lot weaker? Sexton has starred in and won two Heineken cup finals at age 25. Dont think ROG had same success by then. He is easily one of Leinsters most consistent players and has practically won us quite a lot of games. If he appears inconsistent for Ireland it probably doesn't help he only plays every second game. OGara has been quite inconsistent himself over the Years for Ireland. He was our worst player by a long shot at the '07 WC he was also quite average in our GS year. If anything having Sexton in the squad has given OGara the root in the hole he needed. He was excellent v France I thought.

Portnoy wrote:

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:Ireland are an 80 minute team, Wales are not.

There, my friends, is the difference.

Wales are now. Trust me. They are.

How's this?

The way they played against England over the last two weekends did not exactly represent a side that faded after the first sixty minutes.

That's beacuse they went AWOL for the first 60 and decided to chip in for the last 10.

So that's how long it takes to beat England nowadays, 10 minutes? (20 minutes with 14 men). Good luck against Scotland and Argentina then.

Portnoy wrote:

The way they played against England over the last two weekends did not exactly represent a side that faded after the first sixty minutes.

Just that they weren't in it for the first 60 mins.

nottins, my memory is a little fuzzy but perhaps you could remind us how much posession England had and how many points they scored on Sat? You know a bit of compare n contrast. Answers on a postcard when your done scouring the net.

nottins_jones

"His name's Henry Jones Jnr... We named the dog nottins."

The sexual tension between you two is becoming overwhelming. For the sake of the forum, please just Flip it out.

PM's received and read, I will respond tomorrow I am going offline now!

So the myth of Ireland fading is being brought out again.

The talent coming through is more than good enough to maintain, or improve, Irelands standing.

The only area that is a slight cause for concern is 2nd row and we have a coupel of years to resolve that one yet.