Post match discussion - Wales 17 - 10 Samoa

First topic message reminder :

Wales beat Samoa for the first time at a World Cup.

Shane Williams scored a vital second-half try to ensure Wales overcame Samoa's stern challenge in Hamilton to boost their hopes of making the World Cup quarter-finals.

Samoa led 10-6 at the break through an Anthony Perenise try and Paul Williams' conversion and penalty.
James Hook kicked two first-half penalties for Wales and Rhys Priestland a brace after the break.
Wales wing Williams sealed victory 15 minutes from the end.

Wales: James Hook (Perpignan); George North (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues), Shane Williams (Ospreys); Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Paul James, Huw Bennett, Adam Jones (all Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Newport Gwent Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Dragons), Sam Warburton (Blues, capt), Toby Faletau (Dragons).
Replacements: Lloyd Burns (Dragons), Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies (both Blues), Andy Powell (Sale Sharks), Tavis Knoyle, Scott Williams (both Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Blues).
Samoa: Paul Williams; Sailosi Tagicakibau, George Pisi, Seilala Mapusua, Alesana Tuilagi; Tasesa Lavea, Kahn Fotuali'i; Sakaria Taulafo, Mahonri Schwalger (c), Anthony Perenise, Daniel Leo, Kane Thompson, Ofisa Treviranus, Maurie Faasavalu, George Stowers.
Replacements: Ti'i Paulo, Census Johnston, Joe Tekori, Manaia Salavea, Jeremy Sua, Eliota Sapolu Fuimaono, James So'oialo.
Referee: Alain Rolland (IRFU)
Touch judge: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judge: Jérôme Garces (France)
TV match official: Giulio De Santis (Italy)

Taylorman wrote:Yes and if Pisi had have played and Samoa got the same lead time as Wales- the result could have been different... not saying they would have won...but it couold have made the difference.

Taylor a fair point, and all the more reason that Samoa vs SA could be a pool changing game.

Maesteg
The fiji game is back in Hamilton, and me thinks that that suits Warren Gatland just fine.

Hope so...!

I did`nt say Samoa could`nt win on the strength of history.Taylorman,I say they
SHOULD`NT.I think the 5Ns sides are still marginally better than Argentina,Italy,and Samoa.I would expect 8 out of 10 matches for the 5Ns
sides.Can`t be bothered to check but expect stats would confirm that,in the same way.
NH sides have beaten the All Blacks just 21 times since 1903,France with 12 the most successful.Outside a RWC no one would be talking France victories there so rare.
BUT in RWCs the record is 2-2,it made me laugh "France have a great recent record in this country2."2009 a team without Conrad Smith,Carter,AliWilliams, Mc Caw,Rodney Oand Donald duck at 10..before that it was 1994.
NZ v France two points of view,we`ve both qualified,lets get thru the group
no injuries result does`nt matter.A loss would be advantageous to the team more than a win.
All Blacks play there strongest side v France GREAT have`nt seen that since2010 WHAT is it?
I tell you this,whatever France pick,will have a Solid set pieces,Great forwards and backs.plus the two most consistent goal kickers in the RWC to date.
The match won`t be decided on history,or the teams picked,the best team on the day will win.The team that wants it most,it won`t be a smash out for either team.
Part of me says yes a win for NZ,SA or Aus semi then if the make it to final last man standing.
Other side says try to win ,but hey lose and you have an easier path to a final.
WHAT do you think ,you know my ethos,strongest team every time a must win situation,make a statement.
BUT i`m not a Kiwi my support does`nt depend on winning an RWCmy supports a given whatever the situation win or lose.

fa0019 wrote:Also before the SA match Gareth Thomas was punditing on ITV... if I recall he said something along the lines of.... Wales are a small nation, we're not expected to compete, win etc. Now that was your captain up to 07 and one of your recent greats but here he was saying Wales shouldn't expect to compete with the likes of the boks.
He has as good an insight into the welsh camp/mentality as anyone would do and if a great past player like Thomas says it... I'd say its valid.

By that logic NZ can't be anything special either and Japan and the USA ought to be breezing through comps like this, yet neither have ever beaten a major side let alone seriously competed for the WC...

Being a good player and skipper doesn't make you a good pundit and when you're talking about Gareth Thomas you're talking about the guy who threw his toys out of the pram on Scrum V when they hired him.

Wales need a creative centre ( henson come back please!) and a full back who can come into the line and make or off load, no fancy stuff keep it simple.

maestegmafia wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Yes and if Pisi had have played and Samoa got the same lead time as Wales- the result could have been different... not saying they would have won...but it couold have made the difference.

Taylor a fair point, and all the more reason that Samoa vs SA could be a pool changing game.

Yes I havnt worked it out but the SA Samoa last pool match will be intriging. Samoa have commented that theyve heard everyone saying wales and SA are through. Theyre out to prove that wrong and with not as much structure to their game as SA theyll be aiming to smash them and take the opportunities they get.
They wont care how big they are such is their nature and could be a handful for SA injury wise.
That may mean SA will have Samoa Oz then NZ in a row so thats a tough ask for SA and it will test their rugby ages.

Taylorman, it will be more of a test of ability than ages.

If you look at the performance of the players the only one that has still not shown any real form is Fourie du Preez.

PDV is in a bit of a conundrum.

He believes he knows who his best players are and how his impact bench should work.

Looking at the back line as an example.

9. Fourie du Preez age 29
10. Morne Steyn age 26
11. Bryan Habana age 28, Francois Hougaard age 22, Ndunage age 30
12. Frans Steyn age 24, Jean de Villiers age 30
13. Jaque Fourie age 28
14. JP Pietersen age 26
15. Patrick Lambie age 21

1. Gurthro age 30, Beast age 26.
2. John Smit age 33, Bismarck age 26.
3. Jannie du Plessis age 28
4. Bakkies Botha age 33, Johan Muller age 30
5. Victor Matfield age 34, Danie Rossouw age 32
6. Heinrich Brussow age 25, Schalk Burger age 28
7. Frans Louw age 28, Willem alberts age 28
8. Pierre Spies age 26.

Those are the players in the positions they have been used with some utility use in the back row, only our locks are aging, the rest of the team is all youngish and although most havinng experience, the age thing should not affect them.

It is all about performance and tactics. not many of these players apart from Bakkies, Smit and Matfield has played more than 70 tests.

NZ has hit the jackpot with Ireland beating Australia, this means NZ will only have to beat one of their Tri Nation opponents, their favourite tag has just gone up a few notches.

And if they lose to france they wont have to play that SH match till the final you would assume. Also assuming we win of course.

I think the samoa match will give you an excellent idea of where SA are.
They will be desperate and its knockout for them so they will be throwing everything at you. They do need to beat fiji but if they do your match will be a ripper.

Goeie More Taylorman.

My friend I can't see New Zealand lose to France, it will be a surprise of mammoth proportions even though it has happened before. France has so far not shown enough to convince me, but I for one would be quite happy to see NZ on the other side of the draw.

If we can dispatch of australia and then France, a SA vs NZ final will be epic.

biltongbek wrote:Goeie More Taylorman.

My friend I can't see New Zealand lose to France, it will be a surprise of mammoth proportions even though it has happened before. France has so far not shown enough to convince me, but I for one would be quite happy to see NZ on the other side of the draw.

If we can dispatch of australia and then France, a SA vs NZ final will be epic.

France have the ability to beat the all blacks for sure, spades full of talent up front and in the backs.

Thing with France is they can beat and lose to anyone on their day.
You wouldnt give them much hope after making heavy weather of Canada, but them Ireland were exactly favourites after their limp start when it came to the Auissie game ( peaked too soon and have choked etc).

But really New Zealand are a far better side with better players. You cant comepletly discount them but all this " they play well in world cups" is history, not nowstory.
It would be a serious upset (stomach bug?) for France to win, and its not a game either side really needs to win.

Yeah to be honest our pool is a bit boring. France and NZ should qualify barring miracles so this weeks match doesn't break either teams bank.

The Ireland Italy, Scotland- Argie and SA- Samoa matches (provided Samoa beat Fiji) are the real eye catchers. And surprisingly, England has kept under the radar a bit on the field if not off it and could throw up some interesting results with Scotland- you just never know...so much is on the day...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Thing with France is they can beat and lose to anyone on their day.
You wouldnt give them much hope after making heavy weather of Canada, but them Ireland were exactly favourites after their limp start when it came to the Auissie game ( peaked too soon and have choked etc).

But really New Zealand are a far better side with better players. You cant comepletly discount them but all this " they play well in world cups" is history, not nowstory.
It would be a serious upset (stomach bug?) for France to win, and its not a game either side really needs to win.

France struggled no differently against Canada to the way England struggled against Georgia, Georgia and Canada are good well coached teams with ability, give credit where it is due. Both those games could have been a lot closer.

Wales struggled against a handy Samoan team that had played four days earlier and was missing a few top players from their first match. Samoa will be a better team in their next games.

The difference between all the teams is closer.

The real surprise results, in hindsight, for me is the SA 49 - 3 Fiji and Argentina 43 - 8 Romania. I though that both those teams were closer in ability to each other and that there may have even been an upset.

The all Blacks have home advantage but remember the have won two out of four games, the wins against Japan and Tonga. The ABs are susceptible to a loss here or there against won of the better teams.

Cliché of all cliché but it depends on which French team turn up, it will be a game of two halves, but I can not necessarily say that the best team will win.

Hopefully it will be a game of equal entertainment to the Wales vs NZ match in the pool in 2003. That was a cracker.

Wales at sixes and sevens
By Paul Williams on Sep 18, 11 07:46 PM in Welsh rugby bloggers

To be at sixes and sevens is seen as a negative statement, but when it relates to Wales' player ratings for the clash against Samoa, it's no bad thing. The pressure and negative associations of playing Samoa in the World Cup meant that Sunday's fixture was always going to be one for the rugby purist. There would be no headline grabbing individual performances, no 'nine out of tens,' the circumstances simply wouldn't allow it.

And that is exactly how it transpired for Wales. Paul James and Adam Jones scrummaged well at times, but didn't dominate. The lineout functioned with an 81% success rate, losing two from nine on our own throw. The pack as a whole put in a satisfactory performance at the rucks, winning 90% of their ball and surprisingly turned over less ball than they did against South Africa. Preistland, despite missing another drop goal and one reasonably simple line clearance, once again delivered a composed performance under extreme pressure. Phillips straightened when we were going forward, and took the flack whilst we were retreating. Davies defended the 12/13 channel admirably. Shane showed glimpses without dazzling, whist Halfpenny brought some much needed 'gas' at fullback. Like I said, it was 'six and seven out of ten' stuff.

There were however three players who put in performances that weren't at sixes and sevens. The first two are Jamie Roberts and George North. In a game where Wales had limited opportunities to impress, both made the hard yards look effortless - along with Warburton, their ability to maintain form and fitness is integral to Wales' passage through this tournament.

The third player to buck the player ratings trend was Andy Powell, but for the wrong reasons. Powell replaced Lydiate after just 10 minutes and despite the difference in age between the two, the gulf in class is even greater. Powell may have the physique of a blindside flanker, but he has none of the work ethic. Despite an impressive tackle count of 20 in 70 minutes of play, his lack of impact at the breakdown is noticeable - the injuries to Ryan Jones and Lydiate must be a real concern to Warren Gatland.

So there it is. Wales may have been at sixes and sevens, but sometimes that's just what's required to make the last eight.

Hey Polo

thats a really nice piece cheers for sharing.

http://welshrugbyblog.co.uk/

cheers maesteg.

I'm bloggin for the Western Mail during the #RWC2011.

You can follow it here or follow#thepaulwilliams

http://www.comeonwales.co.uk/paul_williams/

Cheers

Paul

Thanks I am sure we will all enjoy your posts...

Good post Paul, Any news on Lydiate that we dont know already ?

Not that I am aware of.

I have my ear to the ground though.

Ryan Jones' return should help though - play him at six.

Just means that Warburton will have to play against Namiba - he was ear marked to be rested.

Good post Paul, keep em coming, aswell as any inside info!!

I wish I hadn't posted that article now, seeing as you're Powells minder and from Brecon lol

It's OK, you're safe till he comes home.......................if he remembers where it is!!

I thought Shane was very good, as much so as George North in his different way. I also liked his description of what it felt like being him playing Samao - like being the ball in a pinball machine.

polotechnics wrote:Not that I am aware of.

I have my ear to the ground though.

Ryan Jones' return should help though - play him at six.

Just means that Warburton will have to play against Namiba - he was ear marked to be rested.

I would still be tempted to rest Sam or at worst start him then take him off at half time.

If he didn't play then a back row of Jones Powell and Faletau at 7 should still be able to a job on Namibia but thats the only time I would like to see that combo.

Bedford. I think that could be a viable option.

We just need to ensure that we get the bonus point and a large points diff.

As Samoa could roll over The Boks.

Well done Wales. You showed a lot of character and belief to come back and clinch that. It took a huge mental effort to pick yourselves up from the disappointment of the SA loss, and now the focus must remain for Fiji who so far haven´t been in any great kind of form. Wales have an outside hope to top the pool but they need to concentrate on their own destiny and not get caught up in things beyond their control.

Top the pool, no thanks, i'm quite happy here in my runners up slot thanks.

andy powells minder wrote:Top the pool, no thanks, i'm quite happy here in my runners up slot thanks.

Quite right, if we beat Namibia and Fiji, then we should meet Ireland in the quarters, that game is winnable (though both teams fans will fancy their chances), then it will be England who look unfit, or France who are in a mess, though if we meet France, then France would of used their big world Cup performance to beat England. So a place in the Final isn't beyond the realms of possiblity for Wales or Ireland!

I would fancy our chances against Ireland and England France would be my biggest worry.

My biggest worry would be inadvertently winning the group and coming up against Oz. They did just put a full-strength ABs team to the sword, so I wouldn't be surprised if they hot peak form again soon.

Or maybe Newzealand will lose to France and finish second in their pool.
that way they will face England in the quarters, and either Wales or Ireland in the semis!

Henry isn't stupid, he should put the weakest team he can out for the French game!

AlynDavies wrote:Or maybe Newzealand will lose to France and finish second in their pool.
that way they will face England in the quarters, and either Wales or Ireland in the semis!

Henry isn't stupid, he should put the weakest team he can out for the French game!

They do that - they lose all credibility. Cant see them disgracing the name or the shirt, built up over a 100 years. If France win, it wont be for that reason.

Gibson wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:Or maybe Newzealand will lose to France and finish second in their pool.
that way they will face England in the quarters, and either Wales or Ireland in the semis!

Henry isn't stupid, he should put the weakest team he can out for the French game!

They do that - they lose all credibility. Cant see them disgracing the name or the shirt, built up over a 100 years. If France win, it wont be for that reason.

That and imagine the sorts of jokes we could all have if they did that and still got knocked out by a NH side before the finals!

Most pundits worth their salt suggest that Wales start with a first team next week and start to rest players once we take advantage of Namibia.

If Wales struggle to put Namibia away then it is obvious that the Team need the game time, rest wont do them more good.

Combinations need time to develop especially in the center.

I would love to see the big game players get time off, and even more so I would love to see youngster like Knoyle, Bevington, Owens, Burn, Scott Williams, as well as experienced older guys like Ryan Jones, Lee Byrne and Steve Jones get a run out, but results are paramount in importance.

I think Wales are building nicely and are looking super-fit. Those last two games were ferocious and they came through (should have beaten the Saffers imo). It will steal them for the battles to come. Its all about momentum and Wales are building it. Two good wins v Namibia & Fiji and they will be primed for the QF's

maestegmafia wrote:Most pundits worth their salt suggest that Wales start with a first team next week and start to rest players once we take advantage of Namibia.

Don't forget Namibia play South Africa on Thursday, and Namibia play in the south African Voda phone Cup. Personally I think Namibia will want to give a good account of themselves against south Africa, firstly because they are neighbouring countries and also to win local respect.
Namibia should play their first team against South Africa and give it 110%, then stick a reserve side out against Wales. It is the only common sense solution for them, do they really want play a weak side and lose 142-0 like they did to Australia a few years ago? I think those players would be ashamed to set foot in south Africa again if they did.

Wales only have a 6 day turn around from the Namibia game to play Fiji, and then a 6 day break before the quarter finals, so resting players will be key against Namibia.

The real beauty is while we play Namibia, Fiji and Samoa will be knocking lumps out of each other, so god knows what shape Fiji will be in to face us after that.

Fiji and Samoa thats the game I want to watch I pity the ref.

At first I was of the opinion we should make a few changes but now I must agree that it makes more sense to field our strongest possible starting XV then hopefully get the BP in the bag and make changes then

Cymroglan wrote: Fiji and Samoa thats the game I want to watch I pity the ref.

Believe me the Island games are not what you might expect, the Pacific Nations cup games are rarely anywhere near the excitment of a 6 Nation game.
Once the dances are over the rugby is normally pretty boring. the only really memorable games I can remember for the last 2 years is Japan games. The games amongst the Island teams aren't thrillers or even close, they often end up in a 15-20 point win for one of the teams.

As soon as one of the Island teams get more than 7 points ahead, the other team gets disheartened and collapses.