How should the RWC be organised in future?

by Portnoy Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:43 am

First topic message reminder :

There are still too many non-matches in RWCs. OK the hundred-point killers have gone, but the 60+pointers are still in evidence.

Many v2 posters will argue that T2/3 sides' exposure is good. But I disagree. I believe that only true competition is real competition.

My proposals:

The next four years up to 2015:

Each country in the IRB to agree on a fair Rankings system. One country one vote.
(Tier 1 countries call all the shots in everything else in rugby)

This is what I suggest for the 2019 finals onwards -

Taking any RWC final as year zero:

Year 1: The current (as of the time of the draw) IRB ranking teams (1-12) go into the pot as seeds 1, 2 and 3 and the 4th seed pot remains vacant save the qualifiers' 'qualifying pot'. The RWC draw is made.

Years 2-3: On a basis agreed during the 2011-15 rankings decision, the seeds play each other home and away to earn the right to fill the RWC seed 4.

Additionally in any RWC year, a T1 Nation (or collective) should host a seeded knockout competition between the next sixteen non-RWC qualifiers.

by Portnoy Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:42 am

AlynDavies wrote:Ok I thought about it a bit more how it could work and here is the best I can come up with:

Seeding:
Pot 1
4 Nations - New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Argentina - Pools A,C,E,G
6 Nations, top 4 teams - England, France, Ireland, Wales - Pools B,D,F,H

Pot 2
6 Nations (bottom 2 teams) + 6 nations B (top 2 teams) - Scotland, Italy, Georgia, Romania - Pools A,C,E,G
Pacific Nations Cup teams - Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Japan - Pools B,D,F,H

Pot 3
Top 4 Americas teams - Canada, Usa, Uruguay, Chile - Pools A,C,E,G
6 Nations B (bottom 4 teams) - Portugal, Russia, Spain, Ukraine - Pools B,D,F,H

Pot 4
Asian 5 Nations teams - Hong Kong, Kazakhstan, UAE, Sri Lanka - Pools A,C,E,G
Top 4 African Teams - Namibia, Zimbabwe, Ivory Coast, Tunisia - Pools B,D,F,H

Thoretical Pool Layout:
Pool A
1 New Zealand
2 Scotland
3 Canada
4 Hong Kong

Pool B
1 England
2 Samoa
3 Portugal
4 Namibia

Pool C
1 South Africa
2 Italy
3 USA
4 Kazakhstan

Pool D
1 France
2 Fiji
3 Russia
4 Zimbabwe

Pool E
1 Australia
2 Georgia
3 Uruguay
4 UAE

Pool F
1 Ireland
2 Tonga
3 Spain
4 Ivory Coast

Pool G
1 Argentina
2 Romania
3 Chile
4 Sri Lanka

Pool H
1 Wales
2 Japan
3 Ukraine
4 Tunisia

After the pools the teams will be placed in 4 different competition, based on their final pool standings.

Rugby World Cup - Top placing of each pool, quarter finals:
New Zealand (Pool A Winner) Vs England (Pool B Winner)
South Africa (Pool C Winner) Vs France (Pool D Winner)
Australia (Pool E Winner) Vs Ireland (Pool F Winner)
Argentina (Pool G Winner) Vs Wales (Pool H Winner)

Rugby World Shield - Second placed teams in each pool, quarter finals:
Scotland (Pool A Runner-up) Vs Samoa (Pool B Runner-up)
Italy (Pool C Runner-up) Vs Fiji (Pool D Runner-up)
Georgia (Pool E Runner-up) Vs Tonga (Pool F Runner-up)
Romania (Pool G Runner-up) Vs Japan (Pool H Runner-up)

Rugby World Cup Plate - Third placed teams in each pool, quarter finals:
Canada (Pool A Third Place) Vs Portugal (Pool B Third Place)
USA (Pool C Third Place) Vs Russia (Pool D Third Place)
Uruguay (Pool E Third Place) Vs Spain (Pool F Third Place)
Chile (Pool G Third Place) Vs Ukraine (Pool H Third Place)

Rugby World Cup Bowl Fourth placed teams in each pool, quarter finals:
Hong Kong (Pool A Fourth Place) Vs Namibia (Pool B Fourth Place)
Kazakhstan (Pool C Fourth Place) Vs Zimbabwe (Pool D Fourth Place)
UAE (Pool E Fourth Place) Vs Ivory Coast (Pool F Fourth Place)
Sri Lanka (Pool G Fourth Place) Vs Tunisia (Pool H Fourth Place)

Basically even if the lower teams do take a tonking in the pool stages they always have the potential of winning a trophy at the end.

The beauty of this tournament, is despite it's size can ALL take place over 6 weeks not 7, so it is actually SMALLER than the existing format!

Would all these competitions be held in the same host Nation(s) simultaneously? I need a bit more detail on the practicalities.

I'm not inherently averse - in fact I like the idea of paving the streets with a sprinkle of gold dust.

Must be a multi-Nation commitment amongst a few T1 Nations/Coalitions?

by Shifty Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:49 am

Gatts wrote:Like it where do i sign.

Have long advocated a second comp within RWC along the lines of the Sevens.

Problem is Alan that logisitically that is a huge nightmare for the host so the costs will go through the roof.

Any change in the format needs to be accompanied by a change in the way home unions can profit from it

Well there will be 16 pool games over any weekend period, so if you played Thursday (4 games) Friday (4 games), Saturday (4 games) and Sunday (4 games), then you's need about 4 to 8 different grounds in any host country. Though most countries could accomodate this, even Wales has plenty of grounds that could accomodate these extra games.
Remember Pontypool park was used in the 1991 World Cup for Australia Vs Samoa!

Millenium Stadium - 74,500
Cardiff city stadium - 26,828
Liberty Stadium - 20,532
Rodney Parade - 15,000 (??? not sure of capacity)
Racecourse Wrexham - 15,500
Parc Y Scarlets - 14,870
Cardiff Arms Park - 12,500

by Shifty Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:54 am

Portnoy wrote:Would all these competitions be held in the same host Nation(s) simultaneously? I need a bit more detail on the practicalities.

I'm not inherently averse - in fact I like the idea of paving the streets with a sprinkle of gold dust.

Must be a multi-Nation commitment amongst a few T1 Nations/Coalitions?

No, every other tournament has been held in Europe, so If England held it, then Wales, Ireland, Scotland and France could also hold a pool, meaning England would only need to host 3 pools, and they easily have the stadia for this.

If it was held in Australia and New Zealand then they'd need to host 4 pools each, given that New Zealand is currently doing this then I cant see a problem, they could have half the tournament each as far as the the semis. then one country takes the 3/4 play off, and the other the final.

by Gatts Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:57 am

AlynDavies wrote:
Gatts wrote:Like it where do i sign.

Have long advocated a second comp within RWC along the lines of the Sevens.

Problem is Alan that logisitically that is a huge nightmare for the host so the costs will go through the roof.

Any change in the format needs to be accompanied by a change in the way home unions can profit from it

Well there will be 16 pool games over any weekend period, so if you played Thursday (4 games) Friday (4 games), Saturday (4 games) and Sunday (4 games), then you's need about 4 to 8 different grounds in any host country. Though most countries could accomodate this, even Wales has plenty of grounds that could accomodate these extra games.
Remember Pontypool park was used in the 1991 World Cup for Australia Vs Samoa!

Millenium Stadium - 74,500
Cardiff city stadium - 26,828
Liberty Stadium - 20,532
Rodney Parade - 15,000 (??? not sure of capacity)
Racecourse Wrexham - 15,500
Parc Y Scarlets - 14,870
Cardiff Arms Park - 12,500

So you are putting Wales up for a trial excellent!

Was just thinking about how to grow rugby...if you had a tourney like that in India I would not be exaggerating when i say the whole country would get on board....pretty sure the sponsors would be salivating at the prospect I think that sometimes the established rugby nations almost suffocate rugby because they keep it so close to their chest. of course India does not currently have the infrastructure to host such a comp but if we really want to grow this great game we need to start spreading the word in the big developing economies...China fro example.

by Portnoy Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:05 am

AlynDavies wrote:
Gatts wrote:Like it where do i sign.

Have long advocated a second comp within RWC along the lines of the Sevens.

Problem is Alan that logisitically that is a huge nightmare for the host so the costs will go through the roof.

Any change in the format needs to be accompanied by a change in the way home unions can profit from it

Well there will be 16 pool games over any weekend period, so if you played Thursday (4 games) Friday (4 games), Saturday (4 games) and Sunday (4 games), then you's need about 4 to 8 different grounds in any host country. Though most countries could accomodate this, even Wales has plenty of grounds that could accomodate these extra games.
Remember Pontypool park was used in the 1991 World Cup for Australia Vs Samoa!

Millenium Stadium - 74,500
Cardiff city stadium - 26,828
Liberty Stadium - 20,532
Rodney Parade - 15,000 (??? not sure of capacity)
Racecourse Wrexham - 15,500
Parc Y Scarlets - 14,870
Cardiff Arms Park - 12,500

For sure a single country (least of all Wales) could never host as massive a proposition as yours.

I like the concept as I say but I need to be persuaded as to the practicalities. Remember that there are loads of amateurs who are going to be involved. And the may have WAGs and families and jobs to support.

by Shifty Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:05 am

Gatts wrote:So you are putting Wales up for a trial excellent!

Was just thinking about how to grow rugby...if you had a tourney like that in India I would not be exaggerating when i say the whole country would get on board....pretty sure the sponsors would be salivating at the prospect I think that sometimes the established rugby nations almost suffocate rugby because they keep it so close to their chest. of course India does not currently have the infrastructure to host such a comp but if we really want to grow this great game we need to start spreading the word in the big developing economies...China fro example.

Well this is the same size as the Football World Cup, and it has been proven it is possible, Any country that has held a football World Cup in recent years could do it.
America / Canada could do it easily, as could nations like Spain and Italy, if you included their football stadia.

India have over 30 stadiums with capacities over 30k, and some as high as 120k-150k!
Though I'm not sure how safe those stadiums would be!

by Shifty Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:09 am

Portnoy wrote:For sure a single country (least of all Wales) could never host as massive a proposition as yours.

I like the concept as I say but I need to be persuaded as to the practicalities. Remember that there are loads of amateurs who are going to be involved. And the may have WAGs and families and jobs to support.

Sure but we had amateurs in 1987, 1991 and 1995 and these teams still managed to compete as amateurs, my format is actually 1 match less, and the tournament 1 week shorter than the standard model.

Stadiums shouldnt be a problem simply because this is basically the amount of teams you'd have in a football World Cup. Clearly if countries can manage with the football then they should have the stadiums for the rugby also?
Football expanded to 32 teams in 1998, so in theory any team who hosted a Football World Cup since then could also host the rugby one.
Money would also be generated from tv also for the extra games.

by Gatts Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:13 am

AlynDavies wrote:
Gatts wrote:So you are putting Wales up for a trial excellent!

Was just thinking about how to grow rugby...if you had a tourney like that in India I would not be exaggerating when i say the whole country would get on board....pretty sure the sponsors would be salivating at the prospect I think that sometimes the established rugby nations almost suffocate rugby because they keep it so close to their chest. of course India does not currently have the infrastructure to host such a comp but if we really want to grow this great game we need to start spreading the word in the big developing economies...China fro example.

Well this is the same size as the Football World Cup, and it has been proven it is possible, Any country that has held a football World Cup in recent years could do it.
America / Canada could do it easily, as could nations like Spain and Italy, if you included their football stadia.

India have over 30 stadiums with capacities over 30k, and some as high as 120k-150k!
Though I'm not sure how safe those stadiums would be!

Yeah well USA is an interesting one and i wouldn't be surprised to see it here within 20 years (I am in Canada) If you look at soccer in the USA for years people said it was never going to compete but i think it actually grew by being taken up by girls as much as boys and now it is a very big deal in USA and Canada. The USA is so dominated by NFL that it will take years to get it to point even as popular as soccer and in Canada they have hockey and that will always be the No 1 sport (always!) Developing sport, infrastructure, huge commercial opportunity....USA ticks alot of boxes

Oh and portnoy...least of all wales blah blah. grow up (even at your age)

by Shifty Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:18 am

Gatts wrote:Yeah well USA is an interesting one and i wouldn't be surprised to see it here within 20 years (I am in Canada) If you look at soccer in the USA for years people said it was never going to compete but i think it actually grew by being taken up by girls as much as boys and now it is a very big deal in USA and Canada. The USA is so dominated by NFL that it will take years to get it to point even as popular as soccer and in Canada they have hockey and that will always be the No 1 sport (always!) Developing sport, infrastructure, huge commercial opportunity....USA ticks alot of boxes

Oh and portnoy...least of all wales blah blah. grow up (even at your age)

I think the Americans may take to the game and possibly enjoy the tournament while it's on. NFL and Rugby arent totally dissimilar and they may enjoy the action, especially if you pointed out to the audience it is historically the same game, it's just in some countries they didnt allow the ball to be thrown forward.
It could be a curiosity at least and get itself noticed.

by Portnoy Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:36 am

AlynDavies wrote:
Portnoy wrote:For sure a single country (least of all Wales) could never host as massive a proposition as yours.

I like the concept as I say but I need to be persuaded as to the practicalities. Remember that there are loads of amateurs who are going to be involved. And the may have WAGs and families and jobs to support.

Sure but we had amateurs in 1987, 1991 and 1995 and these teams still managed to compete as amateurs, my format is actually 1 match less, and the tournament 1 week shorter than the standard model.

Stadiums shouldnt be a problem simply because this is basically the amount of teams you'd have in a football World Cup. Clearly if countries can manage with the football then they should have the stadiums for the rugby also?
Football expanded to 32 teams in 1998, so in theory any team who hosted a Football World Cup since then could also host the rugby one.
Money would also be generated from tv also for the extra games.

I can see two killing flaws in your argument:

1. Rugby is zilch compared with football in professional, commercial and spectator appeal. (not to mention the extra players to be housed and fed per squad)

2. in 1987, 1991 and 1995... If you believe the players were 'amateur' in those years then you are deluded. They were shamateur at best.

However I still see the up-side of your proposal - but it would have to be spread over a couple of years in several T1/2 nations.

by Shifty Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:48 am

Portnoy wrote:I can see two killing flaws in your argument:

1. Rugby is zilch compared with football in professional, commercial and spectator appeal. (not to mention the extra players to be housed and fed per squad)

2. in 1987, 1991 and 1995... If you believe the players were 'amateur' in those years then you are deluded. They were shamateur at best.

However I still see the up-side of your proposal - but it would have to be spread over a couple of years in several T1/2 nations.

I appreciate it is hard to compare the financial generating ability of rugby and football, however the rugby world cup doesn't need to generate that money that the football equivilent does, wages in football are huge compared to rugby ones and we wont need to compensate the clubs supplying the players to such a degree.

I appreciate if you read Scott Gibbs autobiography you will read about envelopes full of tenners going round the Neath/Swansea changing rooms, and different Union had different interpretations of the rules. Example, New Zealand didn't pay their players, but for them to appear on a tv advert in their All blacks kit driving a tractor and being paid for it was fine. Where-as England didn't allow payments under any circumstances. Though recruiting a player and getting him a nice well paid job was seen as fair game.

More and more countries are actually turning professional as well, nearly all Georgia's players are professional and well as Russia's. The only country I have heard about who are mainly amateur is Namibia.

by sportform Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:24 am

How about a 16 team tournament for which only the hosts qualify. All the other teams would have to go through qualification similar to the football world cups.

The remaining 15 places would be allocated as Europe 6, Americas 2, Africa 2, Asia/ Oceania 5

The idea being that the World Cup tournament is about the top teams but the smaller nations still get to play the big teams. These games would be home and away and therefore the smaller nations would get the boost of the bigger nations playing in their countries.

Europe
There would be preliminary qualifying to find the six best non 6N teams. That would leave 12 teams to be put into three groups of four. Games would be played in the two years leading up to the world cup such as 2013 and 2014.

Group A:- England, Wales, Georgia, Spain
Group B:- France, Scotland, Russia, Belgium
Group C:- Ireland, Italy, Romania, Portugal

Each team would play home and away against the other teams in their groups and the top two in each group would qualify for the 2015 World Cup. As each 6N team would play each other home and away anyway in the Six Nations over that two year period the respective games could double up.

Americas
Argentina would get a bye to the final qualifying round. The other Americas teams, including Canada and the USA, would go through preliminary qualifying. The top three teams join Argentina in a final qualifying group.

Final Group:- Argentina, Canada, USA, Uruguay.

The top two qualify for 2015.

Africa
Similar to the Americas qualifying in that South Africa would only play in the final group. The other African teams would play a preliminary round.

Final Group:- South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwae, Tunisa

Top two teams qualifies for 2015.

Asia/ Oceania
Preliminary qualifying for smaller nations and then the final qualifying groups.

Group A:- Australia, Somoa, Fiji, Korea
Group B:- New Zealand, Tonga, Hong Kong, Papua New Guinea

Top two qualify for 2015 World Cup and two third place teams play off.

by emack2 Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:25 pm

I have been pondering one or two aspects roughly related to this,firstly
is there a specific window of play.Say 7 weeks,or could it be extended so
every team has the same rest time.
Is there a specific time of year when it has to be played,september -october
or could it be played earlier.
My thinking was Play it say May-july,then schedule 4Ns/6Ns later in the year
that would mean full teams could fielded for ALL tournaments then.
You now have 4 years for the respective unions to schedule there domestic
tournaments.so there is minimum clashes with, Jeff/H/C.Top14.Super Rugby or whatever.
It would just mean starting earlier Super Rugby is getting unwieldy any way
and a 2 tier system with promotion/relegation would be sensible.
Perhaps adding an Argentina Franchise to service the 4Ns team,because lets face it only about 8 sides in Super Rugby are of similar strength by results.
Eddy Jones reckoned Australia could only support 2 at once thats extreme but 3 at best.same goes for NZ and SA

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