Can England win it in 2015?

87 New Zealand (New Zealand)
91 Australia (England)
95 South Africa (South Africa)
99 Australia (Wales)
03 England (Australia)
07 South Africa (France)
11 New Zealand (New Zealand)
15 England (England)?

What do they need to do from grass roots up to give their players the best chance?

Learn discipline would be my guess.

For years England have had decent sides capable of winning loads but their own indiscipline lets them down and is more often than not the result of them loosing close matches.

I for one would love to see the main core of players centrally contracted. England being their employers and any club appearences secondary and on the RFU's terms. Worked wonders for english cricketers who previously looked at internationals as a bit of time out from the county circuit but who now work within the ECB and need to work damn hard to keep their contracts. Won't happen tho' so in the short term I'd be happy with us reverting to a tight five of man handlers instead of wanna be backs.

ultra wrote:I for one would love to see the main core of players centrally contracted. England being their employers and any club appearences secondary and on the RFU's terms. Worked wonders for english cricketers who previously looked at internationals as a bit of time out from the county circuit but who now work within the ECB and need to work damn hard to keep their contracts. Won't happen tho' so in the short term I'd be happy with us reverting to a tight five of man handlers instead of wanna be backs.

I'm not convinced that Thompson, Cole and Deacon are really wannabe backs.

I haven't checked the odds but I'd put a tenner on it that they make the final....

Is it too late to meddle in the domestic game and it's structure? Do the HC (and LV?) alone provide enough intense cross border competition?

eirebilly wrote:Learn discipline would be my guess.

For years England have had decent sides capable of winning loads but their own indiscipline lets them down and is more often than not the result of them loosing close matches.

I would like to point out that when i made this post, the titel of the thread was What do England have to do to win in 2015

My response may make more sense then

Blydi meddling OP's

tomathy wrote:

ultra wrote:I for one would love to see the main core of players centrally contracted. England being their employers and any club appearences secondary and on the RFU's terms. Worked wonders for english cricketers who previously looked at internationals as a bit of time out from the county circuit but who now work within the ECB and need to work damn hard to keep their contracts. Won't happen tho' so in the short term I'd be happy with us reverting to a tight five of man handlers instead of wanna be backs.

I'm not convinced that Thompson, Cole and Deacon are really wannabe backs.

Then where were they at the breakdown? Certainly not smashing the opposition off the ball closing down the fringes. (I'll give Cole the benefit of the doubt as he did seem to be there or there abouts, just not with particular skill).

AND I'm fairly sure Mears, Stevens, Lawes etc seemed to think ball handling was their priority. Nothing worse than a flowing move grinding to a halt with some supposed 'athletic' forward getting the ball in the middle of the park and being turned over/knocked back or seeing the oppostion counter ruck over the ball when your supposed 'big men' are standing off waiting for the pill....

of course we can, look at the finals of 2007 and 2011 if anyone wants to rule any tier1 nation out.

If you are not asking yourself this Okey, I hope the RFU are for your sake!

Glas a du wrote:Blydi meddling OP's

I see what you were doing, trying to set me up for abuse

Glas a du wrote:If you are not asking yourself this Okey, I hope the RFU are for your sake!

abit lost on that one

Oakey, out of interest, who are the 'Tier 1' nations? Is this something you've made up yourself?

i suppose the 6n's and the 4n's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Rugby_tier_1

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_rugby_union_teams

if you wanted a reference there you go , not sure why you asked but glad to help!

lol

Yes we can. But only if the RFU do the right things now, i.e. get the coaching set up sorted, and have a PLAN for how we're going to play, then pick the squads to play it, not a bunch of ageing fatties!

Oakey, I asked because you suggested it would be daft to rule out any 'Tier 1' nation winning the World Cup in 2015.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Oakey, I asked because you suggested it would be daft to rule out any 'Tier 1' nation winning the World Cup in 2015.

ok rule out italy then, maybe even scotland- are you happy

I'm always happy when I get to talk to you, Oakey.

jeasus luckless your a complicated person- its pretty obvious what i was talking about in the first place- and if you want to jump on my post for not being super perfect just come out with it- dont start the riddles.

mystiroakey wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Rugby_tier_1

if you wanted a reference there you go , not sure why you asked but glad to help!

The fact that Wales come last in that list is racist. It may well appear to be alphabetical but that's all too convenient. Everyone's got it in for the Welsh, even Wikipedia.

Who's 'Jeasus,' Oakey? Are you seeing someone else?

well played luckless, i wont be paticipating anymore, good luck with your next victim

Sorry Oakey, I'm bored at work, that's all. I'll make it up to you on our next date.

Despite the apparent lover's tiff, Mr Oakey does have a point. any one of the more established teams will be in with a shout, particularly given the venue.....

Very important that ENG or any other 2015 aspiring team are ranked in top4 when seedings are announced... if not it will be very difficult as they will probably face NZ, AUS & SA in the pool stages.

Even when the 3N sides are in historic lows they are still formidable.

With the current coaching staff I would say no.... MJ may grow as a coach but he has never really deviated from what he knows and trusts. His decisions seem very slow in the making

i.e.

the dropping of Borthwick as Captain and player.
The introduction of Tiulagi.
His starting 10 in 2010/2011 season.

Those 3 factors were key to why ENG failed to show up this time around and I'm sure with MJ at the helm it will be very similar come 2015.

fa0019 wrote:Very important that ENG or any other 2015 aspiring team are ranked in top4 when seedings are announced... if not it will be very difficult as they will probably face NZ, AUS & SA in the pool stages.

Even when the 3N sides are in historic lows they are still formidable.

With the current coaching staff I would say no.... MJ may grow as a coach but he has never really deviated from what he knows and trusts. His decisions seem very slow in the making

i.e.

the dropping of Borthwick as Captain and player.
The introduction of Tiulagi.
His starting 10 in 2010/2011 season.

Those 3 factors were key to why ENG failed to show up this time around and I'm sure with MJ at the helm it will be very similar come 2015.

I agree on Borthwick but am a bit confused by the second two. Not bringing Tuilagi in for the Six Nations was a perfectly understandable decision. He'd only had 6 months or so of first team rugby by then and his defensive alignment was dodgy. Plus, his best rugby was in the second half of the season anyway.

Who are you saying should have started 10 for the 10/11 season? Flood started pretty much all of it, and that was a fair choice I think.

tomathy

Simply thrusting Tuilagi into ENG midfield helped but most of the players around him didn't know how to use his skills. Come the FRA match he runs were predictable and ENG were simply giving him the ball in the hope of smashing holes into FRA midfield.
I honestly believe that a 3N team would have given him earlier opportunities so that they would learn how to use him best.

In 12 months he will be truly deadly. But at the moment he is often misused.

Flood should have started the tournament as 10 for sure. Yet JW started all the major matches in the position despite having a poor kicking record throughout the RWC and being a far less attacking threat with the ball in hand.

Ok he didn't shine in the lead ups but I think they should have given him credit for his form in the years before/2011 6N.

Unless JW was firing with his kicking then there is no reason to chose him over flood... yet despite his record getting no better throughout the whole tournament MJ just stuck with him and hoped he would eventually raise his game...

As a coach you have to make the tough decisions... his idea to chose Flood at 12 and have 2 kickers only has ever worked in 1 match (03 SF vs. FRA) and failed in countless others. It seems MJ just looked and thought... well it worked 8 years ago, why not now.

Its only my opinion but I reckon his hesitation to change things when his plan A wasn't working did cost ENG and was something a better & more experienced coach wouldn't have missed.

mystiroakey wrote:

Glas a du wrote:If you are not asking yourself this Okey, I hope the RFU are for your sake!

abit lost

Really?!

Sorry to disappoint you all, but South africa will win in 2015.

We will be motivated, want retribution, will have a new coach and has some new blood just itching to win a world cup.

sorry.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Glas a du wrote:If you are not asking yourself this Okey, I hope the RFU are for your sake!

abit lost

Really?!

yeah really , now stop it

biltongbek wrote:Sorry to disappoint you all, but South africa will win in 2015.

We will be motivated, want retribution, will have a new coach and has some new blood just itching to win a world cup.

sorry.

thats ok you can be confident, do you think this new blood would rather play for england, are you sure they wont all claim grand parentage and come back to the motherland?

fa0019 wrote:Simply thrusting Tuilagi into ENG midfield helped but most of the players around him didn't know how to use his skills. Come the FRA match he runs were predictable and ENG were simply giving him the ball in the hope of smashing holes into FRA midfield.
I honestly believe that a 3N team would have given him earlier opportunities so that they would learn how to use him best.

You have a good point there about the way that Tuilagi was used against France, but I don't think that means Johnson should have picked him earlier. He could easily have been torn to shreds in the Six Nations and ruined his confidence. The fact that he's done really well could just as well be used to say that Johnson picked him at just the right time.

fa0019 wrote:Flood should have started the tournament as 10 for sure. Yet JW started all the major matches in the position despite having a poor kicking record throughout the RWC and being a far less attacking threat with the ball in hand.

It seems we agree on this, but that there's been a mixup on the year. You said the 10/11 season. Flood started at 10 for the whole of that season, so I thought you were suggesting that Wilkinson should have started.

We have shot all their grandmothers

These guys are as south african as they come and most have been capped and some will soon be.

Coenie Oosthuizen - uncapped
Bismarck - capped
Beast - Capped
Andries Bekker - Capped
Heinrich Brussow - Capped
Jean Deysel - Capped
Willem Alberts - Capped
Patrick Lambie - Capped
Francois Hougaard - Capped
Frans Steyn - Capped
Lwasi Mvovo - Capped
Johan Sadie - uncapped
Juan du Jongh - Capped
JP Pietersen - Capped

So yeah most won't go visit their grand mommies in the UK.

beast what a name. cricky. we will have to do with our own then i suppose

soryy mate, but enough is enough.

bathmad wrote:Yes we can. But only if the RFU do the right things now, i.e. get the coaching set up sorted, and have a PLAN for how we're going to play, then pick the squads to play it, not a bunch of ageing fatties!

Now we're talking, all we need now is your personal blueprint to discuss.

biltongbek

Beast is as South African as Moritz Botha is English

But you're right in that he is young and if used correctly, deadly.

Not sure on his lineage but I'd put money on Rory Kockott having at least one english born grandparent. He's from PE for starters.

He's just moved to France as he gave up on his bok aspirations and joined Castres. He is a top player, a very decent scrum half who has a very good kick on him.

If I were the ENG coach I would monitor him with great interest.

Come now FA, you are bursting my bubble and I just had mystiroakey worried, Now you give him a name. He is a scout, did you know that?

Lord preserve us! (or them more to the point)

biltongbek wrote:Sorry to disappoint you all, but South africa will win in 2015.

We will be motivated, want retribution, will have a new coach and has some new blood just itching to win a world cup.

sorry.

Thanks for letting us know in advance, Biltong - it saves us all this 'hope and expectation' nonsense!

Only my pleasure mate, it softens the disappointment when you get fair warning in advance

biltongbek

sorry for busting your chops dude I promise not to let any SA secrets away.. for now anyway... thats if I knew any!

Didn't know that, Scout for whom? nae matter anyway dude... ENG can't take him with their new non ENG based players rules in place.

Personally I reckon SA should keep an eye on him with Du Preez gone... Hougaard is decent and the boks have a couple other up & coming players but teams should never turn their back on talent.

FA I know the Sharks had some discipline issues with him, twoseasons ago I though he was brilliant, also a decent goal kicker. But I think his ship has sailed. Duvenhage is the same type of player and even shone when he moved to flyhalf during the Super XV.

I think Allister Coetzee might get a shot at coaching the Boks and then Duvenhage will definitely be in the running

No seriously

Be nice View. Anyone who's qualified for 2015 is technically in with a shot

And if England do get their admin and organisation together in time they've got the resources ...

the resources to put on another fine circus, this time they'll be Lion taming, chambermaid tossing, dwarf salad making and Manu Tuilagi will win the 50 m breaststroke, or will that be Tindall

Gatts wrote:the resources to put on another fine circus, this time they'll be Lion taming, chambermaid tossing, dwarf salad making and Manu Tuilagi will win the 50 m breaststroke, or will that be Tindall