Did the NZRFU Take a leaf out of the ENGLAND RFU???

1999 England got dumped out of the Rugby World Cup by SA and the drop goals from Yanny Debair, England decided to stick with Clive Woodward and in 2003 England was crownd RUGBY WORLD CHAMPIONS. By the time 2003 came around Woodward had been in the job for eight years.

Now take Graham Henry, spent the years from 2003 to 2007 in charge of NZ, after NZ got dumped out of the 2007 Rugby World Cup their was talk that Henry had to go, but they stuck with him till he resigned after leading the All Blacks to be crowned RUGBY WORLD CHAMPIONS, after 24 years from the last time they won it.

So is it fair to sack a coach of the national side after 4 yeras incharge, or should a Head Coach begivern at least a second bite of the cherry so to speak.

I was thinking about this today when i was reading about Martin Johnson has to have a talk with his coaches next monday and tuseday, to decide if he wants to carry on with the manager job incharge of England or not. Is 4 years in the job long enough for a head coach.

So did the NZRFU follow the same steps as ENGLAND in not sacking Henry after his first attempt?

Sounds like holding on to Gatland was a good idea. We must be certs

Depends on the situation. It worked for England in 2003 and NZ in 2007. Additionally, bith Wales and Australia are keeping their head coach going forward.

Not the first time its been mentioned.
Henry was reappointed because:
1 The players reports after 2007 were adamant he and the same panel should be retained
2 Henry's selling point to the board was that as a panel they had learned what went wrong, the things required to win it. No coach had backed up previously so 'another' new coach may have been a tired measure at this point.
3 Henry was already an acknowledged good coach whose team was consistently at no. 1.

So if that represents following Englands lead then you could say that.

Difference between the two is England werent a no.1 team in 1999 and werent favourites, and were developing. Neither was SCW a 'great' coach depending on what measure you used. The team was improving, whereas the ABs were already there at no.1 in 07.

SCW took 8 years to mould the team into a winning one, GH took 8 years to turn a consistently high performing AB team into a world cup winning one after making tactical mistakes in 07 and perhaps not having the required amount of luck he got this year.

Poles apart really...you could say SCW faced many more challenges getting the team to the required level and he did brilliantly in that regard. Henrys challenges were just different.

The thing is, given England performances 2007 and 2011 does it mean another 8 years, or 4? Is MJ another SCW and do they take that risk...at home...interesting...

Not really sure Sir Clive Woodward had England for 83 games,and it coincided with a very good group of players.His stats are 71.70% wins/losses.
His 3 successers have had a total of 84 games 50% win/loss total[Johnsons is about 53% win/loss.
Only Geoff Cooke who had 43 games with a 73% win /loss record is close
over a similar period.
No one else in the England set up has had the luxury accorded SCW surviving a RWC loss of continued employment.Nor the same calibre of player as many of the 2001-3 period.
The average player may [if good enough] play 3 RWCs or maybe 4 for a 2 tier side. A coach usually at least to date has one,that applies to the All Blacks as well.
Graham Henry was made to re-apply,as his main rival was Robbie Deans
who was only a subordinate coach tainted by the 2003 Loss.
Henry and co were hired again,but mid 2009 had they not regained the winning touch.Many would have dumped them there and then.
2009 was a weird year the Boks,RWC holders,beat the Lions,won the 3Ns beating the ABs 3-0.IRB number one side .Then bang they imploded finished with a worse overall record than the ABs and ceded IRB Number one title too them.
The All Blacks are the most successful side in History,but that has a price
for Players and Coaches.
You have too keep on Winning,to lose as an All Black is the unforgiveable sin.
Graham Henry has an unparalleled rate of wins 87 out of 103,an 85.6% phenomenal over such a long period.
No other All Blacks coach comes clear over such a run,but numerous have as good or better over short runs.
IF he had not won a RWC ,he would probably go down in History with the note"Was`nt he the bloke who lost the RWC TWICE"
The pressure of a 24 year wait on him and the players,then the injuries to key players.
In the circumstances the win was near miraculous,the carpers will go on about Home advantage.That the Referee only reffed one side in the final etc.
BUT the All Blacks are now RWC holders[deserved or otherwise.]
That 43% of the RWCs have now been won by the Home side,and 5 out of 7 were contested by the Home side.England and australia lost there home games.

Well not quite the full story for 2009 Alan...

Yeah 2009 was an interesting year- not sure about weird, it was good for SA in one respect- they beat NZ 3-0 and won the 3N.

But it was also a year in which key decisions were made by the respective teams. NZ decided to adapt to the new rules, to look to the future, and by the end of year tour had sorted how it wanted its game to go. Because of that, key losses occurred.

SA decided to stay with the tried and true, despite the obvious switch in the way the game was being played, won the 3N and have generally suffered ever since..

The last loss to SA in 2009 signalled the start of a near record run of 17 straight wins- 6 of them in 2009- not sure many wanted them dumped as you put it end of that season. Another GH masterstroke if anything. Stuck to a plan, and equalled the longest winning of any side ever- not a bad call.

Hi,Taylorman All Blacks 2009,had severe problems injury wise including Ali Williams,Conrad Smith,Dan Carter,Ritchie McCaw.Nonu was played in 3 seperate positions.At the end of 3Ns,the Coaches re-shuffled there roles.Dumped Isaac Ross after praising him,so badly he could`nt even get a job with Canterbury at ITM level.
At that time Tom Donnelly fixed the Lineout,McCaw and Carter were up for the Europe Tour.
BUT at the time the Media at least were not very happy,had The Europe Tour been a disaster.
I think there would have been major ructions at NZRFU.

Yeah in thinking about it a few knives came out after the Dunedin loss which Henry has often referred to as a key learning point. The tour did signify the winds of change with SA not finishing out the year with a high- not taking their top side didnt help... and the AB's once again the only unbeaten team- the France match pointing the way it was to be in 2010...

2015 will probably see Hansen taking a younger AB side to England and with the hardened approach built up over this campaign in giving one off matches their full respect, it will be interesting to see how they cope as defending.

Cant for the life of me think why the NZRFU would want to take a leaf out of the RFU's books.

Winning a RWC is one thing,Defending it another All Blacks post1987 are the only side to do so.A run of 24 consectutive games,with just one draw spoiling there perfect record.
Whoever takes over have a very strong set of players signed up. Whether
they will persist with SBW as he is only on a one year contract is debatable.
McCaw and Carter,and Slade will all be in the mix for a few years yet,but would expect RM and DC.In the mentor role more because a specialist Seven,plus depth at FH needs working on.
In coming Coaches need to sort out the wings,Kahui does`nt have the speed for an international wing.Guildford and Gear could well be the options.
Midfield Nonu,Conrad Smith,Kahui,SBW,FB Dagg of course and Cory Jane.
Forwards interesting who will lock,Whitelock and Ali Williams would mean
a proper Lineout.
Brad Thorn for all his skills was`nt much of a lineout option,Front row add Crockett and Hika Elliott and the Front row is sorted.
Outside the current squad,I would look at Brendan Leonard,Alby Mathewson.Ben Smith,Messam,Huerta,Rene Ranger, Matt Todd,GeorgeWhitelock,Robbie Fruen,Tom Donnellly.
Then gradually feed in players like Savea,Bleyendahl,Anscomb,Tom Marshall,
Sopanga,Maitland,plus some young forwards for experience.
For most teams RWC was the peak then the gradual demise,the All Blacks seldom drop more than a couple out of 15 a year.
With a squad more or less intact I see no reason why they cannot keep up there high win stats for another 4 years at least.

I think more so than last world cup the 'reset' button has been pushed for most of the top sides SA being the side with the most changes next year. We change gh and the long serving minders and many senior players over the next two years.
Oz retain their coach and young guns and go searching for a front row.
France england go looking for new coaches perhaps. Ireland lose some oldies and wales just carry on from where they left off- the only team on the rise with what theyve got.
Exciting times i reckon.
And dont forget Alan youll have to be around for the next ab win. Hopefully in your own back yard!

I think the 4Ns will be good grounding,Argentina have one problem.A lot of there top players are NH based.
Release for 4Ns could be problematical,OZ with there best Prop back from injuries .Will have a pretty good pack plus those backs,and losing no one from coaches or squad helps.
SA new coaches,plus a fair few changes in players,BUT they have an incredible depth of talent.IF they can get away from the head in sand,kick for territory ,kick goals mentality,
THey have a chance to change there game and really rattle some cages,a year to settle then bang.
All Blacks want the 4Ns back,two areas Lock a Thorn replacement,and SH/FH.
ALL the exprienced FHs have left bar DC,and he will be winding down,sadly
with Ritchie it wil be the twilight of the Gods.
Such is he,4 years on he could still be there 2015 but needs to slow down.
Major Problem he is now the best Captain in World Rugby,with an incredible 88% win record[shared with DC].
I understand the verdict on his foot is due in the next 24 hours,the ABs are very much.
A team of Leaders as opposed to one Leader,and with respect IF he continues,RM shouldn`t have to start every match for next 4 years.
I don`t know his future plans ,except to his commiment to NZ Rugby,when you have achieved EVERY THING.
There must be a temptation to just retire at the peak,he would surely have a future in coaching.

majesticimperialman wrote:1999 England got dumped out of the Rugby World Cup by SA and the drop goals from Yanny Debair, England decided to stick with Clive Woodward and in 2003 England was crownd RUGBY WORLD CHAMPIONS. By the time 2003 came around Woodward had been in the job for eight years.

Now take Graham Henry, spent the years from 2003 to 2007 in charge of NZ, after NZ got dumped out of the 2007 Rugby World Cup their was talk that Henry had to go, but they stuck with him till he resigned after leading the All Blacks to be crowned RUGBY WORLD CHAMPIONS, after 24 years from the last time they won it.

So is it fair to sack a coach of the national side after 4 yeras incharge, or should a Head Coach begivern at least a second bite of the cherry so to speak.

I was thinking about this today when i was reading about Martin Johnson has to have a talk with his coaches next monday and tuseday, to decide if he wants to carry on with the manager job incharge of England or not. Is 4 years in the job long enough for a head coach.

So did the NZRFU follow the same steps as ENGLAND in not sacking Henry after his first attempt?

Just make sure SARU doesn't read this, we don't want anyone to think there is someone advocating that PDV remains for 4 more years.

It just won't be good for my health.

You don't really mean that biltong do you??

What happened to better the devil you know huh??

LOL!!

With respect,Graham Henry was hardly a failure even if he did`nt win the RWC first up[Like SCW].
The All Blacks under him dropped only 6 out of 42 matches an over 87% win /loss ratio and better than his current one.
3Ns titleholders 2005.6-7,so the RWC loss was an unexpected glitch.

majesticimperialman wrote:1999 England got dumped out of the Rugby World Cup by SA and the drop goals from Yanny Debair

Great player, Yanny Debair...

does he mean Yogi de Bear?

No they forgot Boo-Boo