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Ireland v New Zealand Tour 2012

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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:56 am

It's gonna be a great tour and I think we can finally beat the Kiwis (even if we win 3-0 in third test) after a few heavy losses

We play New Zealand in Auckland on 9th June

Then in Christchurch (which is amazing for the city) on the 16th June

And the third test against New Zealand in in Hamilton on 23rd June

I'm surprised that Dunedin didn't get it as that was hotly tipped. Details of our midweek games against Super 15 and Maori teams still to be announced. Delighted to see a return to old fashioned tours. This is the tour on which I'll be judging Kidney not the Six Nations.
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Post by rodders Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:03 am

Can't wait for this one. A win over the AB's, preferably two, is the only thing that will help erase or ease the disappointment of the RWC. Even another GS won't be enough I think.

I still feel that we have to get some younger guys on this tour. This is a big opportunity to throw guys like POM, Spence, Cave, Gilroy etc. up against the best in the world. Thats the only way to prepare them for 2015 IMO.

Likewise BOD (if fit) Paul O'connell, Best, Bowe, Heaslip etc. will be fundimental to this tour and this could be the last chance for some guys to get a win against the AB's.
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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:06 am

Rodders - we will be. We are bringing a combined Ireland and Ireland A team and I suspect the lines between two teams will become blurred as the tour progresses.
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Post by rodders Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:12 am

Brilliant Stag I hope so. I hope we will see a gradually changing of the guard over the next few season starting in the 6N and progressing on this tour.

Evolution though rather than Intelligent design if you catch my drift Wink.

As terrible it is that BOD is out this is a great opportunity for other players to step up to the plate while he is out. You'd hope he'd make this tour but hopefully there'll be other experienced and proven options when he returns.
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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:14 am

Well it will be. Most of those young players will be playing first choice for their provinces. They'll be selected. We've seen a gradual but steady change of the team over the last 3 years.
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Post by MBTGOG Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:17 am

They say on the IRFU website that we will be playing a match against the Barbarians before we tour so I'm not sure what that means in relation to midweek games over there.

Also, if we won a Grand Slam, I would be delighted and it wouldn't enter my mind about it "easing" the pain of the World Cup.


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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:22 am

MBTGOG wrote:Also, if we won a Grand Slam, I would be delighted and it wouldn't enter my mind about it "easing" the pain of the World Cup.


I agree with you
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Post by rodders Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:22 am

Munsty I don't mean I don't want an GS. I just mean that the lingering disappointment of not going further in the RWC would remain for me and I suspect for a lot of the older players.

A win over the AB's though is the only thing else to achieve for some of these guys. For me it would present a big step forward for Irish rugby from an historical point of view and bar reaching a RWC final a win over the AB's is the next best thing.

Another GS and HEC whilst being amazing would be more of the same rather than raising the bar.
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Post by disneychilly Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:29 am

I can see you blokes turning us over in one. Three chances in three weekends I think Ireland may be too good a team for us to roll 3-0. What worries me is this is the first time since 88 we'll go into a post WC year with nothing to prove. Usually we are on fire as the WC exits have been so chastening, and usually we give the WC holders a hiding. I hope we can maintain focus.

For BOD this and a successful Lions tour would be as full as his CV could get without a WC. He's a brilliant player and I can see the Irish offering us up for a farewell pressie for him. Should be a cracking series. Am hoping it's NZ 3-0 though-living in Dublin I'll never hear the end of it Smile And I won't watch the Breakdown ever again haha!

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:49 am

Surely this must be the tour to see Ireland break the duck. As disney says, 3 games in 3 weeks against class opposition is too much to ask. Especially with a few AB players having retired or moved overseas. Add to that we always seem to start the international season rustily and you´d think things are looking good for Ireland.

Good to see a traditional tour instead of these pointless one off games. Great chance for Ireland to develop some younger players and test their depth. Should be a cracker of a series. If Ireland can win the first one then you´d go so far as to say they should win it. Will be interesting to see what side NZ will put out and what shape the players will be in after a tortuously long Super tournament, especially if a top Kiwi side makes the knockout round.


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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:52 am

Also Munsty apparently the Barbarians game won't affect midweek games. They will still play them.
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Post by MBTGOG Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:00 pm

Awesome. Hope we organise some good ones now.

Kia,

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the Super Rugby comp take a break while the tours happen?

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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:15 pm

red_stag wrote:Rodders - we will be. We are bringing a combined Ireland and Ireland A team and I suspect the lines between two teams will become blurred as the tour progresses.

This I think is the most important point, there will be a direct chance for younger/less experienced guys to step up week in week out.

I'm looking to see big things from Tuohy, Ryan, Hagan or McAllister against Court, POM or Ryan, Ruddock, TOL, Keatley, Spence, McFadden, two of Cave/Barnes/O'Malley, Gilroy, Jones and Fitzgerald.

These guys all can and should step it up to try stake a claim for an Irish jersey.

So happy that the IRFU have got games set up against Provincial sides and the BaaBaa's.
Good work lads.

I want to see us use those games as building blocks big time, yes winning is good but these are games to go see how things/combos/personel.

BOD being out is a huge blow but in a way benefitial to develop new guys in the Irish midfield.

Think Darcy may hold on to his Leinster and Irish jersey longer now as the new midfielder will need someone experienced to blood them in. Then again this may not happen and we may see a Leisnter midfield with McFadden partnering Fitz, Macken or O'Malley. Darcy won't make Ireland if he doesn't make Leinster


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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:18 pm

Is it also just the one game versus the BaaBaa's or do we ahve a few?

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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:24 pm

Pete just one game against BaaBaas.

1 Test v BaaBaas
3 Tests v NZ
Undefined amount of tests against midweek teams.

I wonder will a big Irish crowd head down.
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Post by MBTGOG Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:24 pm

Just the one against the Barbarians.


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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:35 pm

I'd actually go, can't be too expensive really can it?
How much do you reckon you'd have to bring with you and how much the games would be?

I agree that I think this tour will be a make or break for DK.

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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:44 pm

Pete - private message
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:49 pm

MBTGOG wrote:Awesome. Hope we organise some good ones now.

Kia,

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the Super Rugby comp take a break while the tours happen?

Mate no idea. Not used to these traditional tours. In the past, the June tests happened at the end of the Super competition. Now I´m not sure what the time frame is or when the series is actually taking place. All I know is it´s good for rugby to have these meaningful tours taking place rather than cluttering the calendar with one-off tests that have the emotional draw of a used hanky. In a three test series, there´s no hiding from the facts. The inconsistencies and anomalies get ironed out.

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Post by MBTGOG Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:59 pm

I really am looking forward to it. How do you think the public will take to mid week tour matches?


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Post by eirebilly Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:11 pm

It is a very big chance for Ireland to settle some young players into the side and what better tour to do that than against the worlds best. There is still the 6N before that and thats the one that Ireland should be focusing on more right now.

As for BOD, i would be exceedingly suprised if he were to make the tour as he is going to be out for 6 months easy and that doesnt give him much time to get fit, letalone match fit to play the AB's. Also if the young guard do well in the 6N, BOD will find it difficult to break back in the side.
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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:24 pm

Eire - he will be there unless injured. Its Ireland and Ireland A combined. He'll still make a 40 man squad.
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Post by The Great Aukster Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:31 pm

Ireland will have one chance to win a game and that will be the last one in Hamilton. Once the ABs have sewn up the series they will experiment with a few players and rest their important ones. Also by that time hopefully Ireland will have learned what it takes to compete and be selecting the form players from the tour.

Here's a plan!
Kidney should play his second string against the AB's in the first two tests, whilst playing the full test team in the dirt trackers, and then switch them for the last test. In that way the youngsters get to experience the pain of crushing defeat and an inkling of where they need to get to, plus it might just uncover a few gems for 3rd test consideration. In the meantime the test team get match fit and at least have a chance of some victories on the road, while preparing for their grand finale Wink

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Post by eirebilly Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:31 pm

I can see how you think that stag but would it be worth the risk if he isnt fit enough? Even a midweek match may be too much if he is not fully fit and at that stage, if he received another injury it could be career ending.
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Post by eirebilly Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:33 pm

International career i mean of course.
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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 08 Nov 2011, 3:31 pm

This tour looks like it could be a really really good one, lots to watch and on top of that all the other nations doing the same thing.

Did this before but don't think the same people were on that thread....

Guesswork.....
Team for AB test matches

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-POC
Ferris-Heaslip-SOB
Murray-Sexton
McF-Spence/Bowe
Earls-Jones/Kearney-Bowe/Trimble

Court-Cronin-DOC-Ryan/POM-Reddan-ROG-Trimble/Kearney

Dirt trackers side

McAllister-Sherry-Hagan
Tuohy-DOC
Ruddock-Leamy-POM/Ryan
TOL-Keatley
Wallace-Spence/O'Malley
Carr/Fitzgerald-Jones/Kearney-Gilroy

Court-Cronin-Toner-POM/Ryan-Boss/Porter-BOD-Carr/Fitzgerald

Also in the squad:

Varley-McGrath-Wilkinson-Cullen-Nagle-Jennings-Barnes-Conway

Have I left anyone out?
That's 52, that's a bit big right?
Exclusions?

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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 3:41 pm

Peter here is what I think the 40 man squad would be:

Hookers (3)
Rory Best
Mike Sherry
Sean Cronin

Props (6)
Tom Court
Cian Healy
Jamie Hagan
Mike Ross
Paddy McAllister
Tony Buckley

Locks (6)
Donncha O'Callaghan
Paul O'Connell
Leo Cullen
Dan Tuohy
Donnacha Ryan
Mike McCarthy

Backrows (7)
Stephen Ferris
Sean O'Brien
David Wallace
Shane Jennings
Jamie Heaslip
Denis Leamy
Peter O'Mahony

Scrumhalves (4)
Conor Murray
Isaac Boss
Tomas O'Leary
Eoin Reddan

Flyhalves (3)
Ronan O'Gara
Jonathan Sexton
Ian Keatley

Centres (4)
Gordon Darcy
Fergus McFadden
Brian O'Driscoll
Nevin Spence

Wingers (5)
Tommy Bowe
Keith Earls
Luke Fitzgerald
Andrew Trimble

Fullbacks (2)
Rob Kearney
Felix Jones
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Post by rodders Tue 08 Nov 2011, 3:42 pm

Pete I have to say, and I've never been a huge fan of his, but Darren Cave deserves to be one of the 1st names down for the tour.

He gets better every time I see him. He is an out and out 13, strong, deceptively fast and very clever. His running lines are excellent and defensively he is very good as well. He knows where the try line is too.

Hes the most underrated player in Ireland right now.

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Post by disneychilly Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:15 pm

I can imagine Todd getting a run here-McCaw's foot may take as long as BOD's shoulder if not longer. Means weather may play a part-if it's pants it will suit Ireland more as the teams won't be able to play expansively where Todd would come into his own. However NZ are a lot more physical than Australia so there should be a better platform for the AB backs to fire. Carter should be back too to run the show.

The lineouts Ireland should look to dominate. We'll probably have Hoeata in there and POC should give him hell. Will be interesting to see how SBW is used too.

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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:18 pm

I will start looking at him more Rodders, saw him earlier in the season and he looked good.

Stag-
I think I'd go and try and be a bit more adventurous I have to say.

I'd forgotten about Buckley so I'd add him.
But Cullen, Jennings and Darcy I'd be tempted to leave in place of Toner, Ryan/Ruddock and Cave/EOM/Barnes/Gilroy.

I'd be tempted to leave Wallace out also but I think it will depend on how he returns from the injury

The reason behind this is; I don't believe any of the 3 will get into the Test side 22. I don't believe they will contribute to Ireland's future internationally either after the 6N.

With that in mind, I'd prefer others in there who are not that much lower of standard (indeed some are actually higher in standard) and they will contribute much more to the future of Irish Rugby.

If I believed that those 3 would get into the starting 22 I wouldn't drop them.

Will it defo be a squad of 40? Doesn't seem like a lot for so many games.

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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:24 pm

Toner - Cullen: Yea possibly I can see the value of it. It depends on his season. He needs keep Sykes out of team.

Ryan/Ruddock - Jennings: No way, these guys can't dislodge him at club level why would they internationally. Also he covers 7 Ruddock does not.

Cave/O'Malley/Barnes/Gilroy - Darcy: None of these people play in the same position as Darcy makes no sense to include them. O'Malley in particular is very much a bit part player at Leinster.
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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:29 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if Jenno was replaced at Leinster by Ryan before too long but we shall see.

If Darcy wasn't there then McF or BOD would move in one and one of these would come in excluding Girloy where I'd personally put Bowe at 13 and Gilroy would be a winger in the squad.

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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:39 pm

McFadden and BOD won't have played 12 all season.

As I see it you can't drop both Darcy and P.Wallace from the tour.

I think that people just need to be a little patient and stop picking on age alone.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:46 pm

I'd drop Boss from your your squad Stag and bring another backrow.Probably Ruddock but it depends on how the season goes.
I think 4 scrum halves is a bit of overkill,also I hope Gilroy at Ulster will be pushing for a spot in the squad he looks promising.

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Post by rodders Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:48 pm

Boss is the best scrum half in the country right now. If you are dropping one it would be Reddan or TOL IMO.
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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:50 pm

I think that our scrumhalves are all fairly equal it could be any combination of them. Personally I'd just bring them all.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:51 pm

Well,I'm just being realistic on who Kidney will pick.If TOL gets any sort of form back it's pretty certain Boss is the one for the chop.Kidney just doesn't rate him.

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Post by rodders Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:52 pm

Stag as Orwell would say:

"All scrum halves are equal but some are more equal than others".

Murray and Boss are way ahead of the other two right now.
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Post by red_stag Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:54 pm

Yea right now but that doesn't matter. As I've said I think it could be any three of them.
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Post by Irish Curry Tue 08 Nov 2011, 5:39 pm

It will be a 45 man squad or there abouts I would think.

The squad I want:
6 Props - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Buckley, Best Irish Prop outside of these at the time the squad is anounced
4 Hookers - Best, Sherry, Cronin, Varley
6 Locks - POC, DOC, Cullen, Ryan, Tuohy, Best lock or lock/backrow at the time of the squad being anounced outside of these on form
8 Backrow - F1, SOB, Heaslip, Wallace, POM, Leamy, McCarthy, Best other Backrow on form
4 Scrum Halfs - Murray, Reddan, Boss, Best other SH on form
3 Fly-Halfs - Sexton, ROG, Keatley
5 Centers - BOD if fit and as a 12, Spence, Barnes, McFadden, Cave, another on form if BOD is injured
5 Wingers - Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgearld, Best other winger on form
2 Fullbacks - Kearney, Jones

Thats 43 so it hopefully will be something like that with players coming through the the season goes on to add to the squad.
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 08 Nov 2011, 5:44 pm

So what do people think will be the centre partnership come the 6 nations/NZ Tour? Who will be taking BOD's place? And will D'Arcy still be playing 12?

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 08 Nov 2011, 5:46 pm

Also I've decided Ireland should probably screw the looking for a proper openside thing for now as we don't have one and just play both Ferris and O'Brien as our flankers. Heaslip or POM to be our future 8. Ferris must start at 6, O'Brien must start (best place for that is probably 7) and Heaslip is an 8. POM to take over Heaslip in the future.

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Post by Irish Curry Tue 08 Nov 2011, 5:54 pm

If BOD was fit I would have 12 BOD and 13 Trimble as first choice with possibly one of the other 3 playing too.

Without BOD I would still noy play D'Arcy as he is passed it and not what we need. I'm still undissided on who to play 12 though. Sexton or Keatley could/should be tryed in the Six Nations. McFadden maybe and who ever else is impressing.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 08 Nov 2011, 6:14 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also I've decided Ireland should probably screw the looking for a proper openside thing for now as we don't have one and just play both Ferris and O'Brien as our flankers. Heaslip or POM to be our future 8. Ferris must start at 6, O'Brien must start (best place for that is probably 7) and Heaslip is an 8. POM to take over Heaslip in the future.

100% agree with this,if Ryan or O'Mahoney or someone else develop into a "fetching" 7 and a world class player then play them but until then SoB or Wallace if he regains fitness are our only options.
So many people don't want Jennings to start but he's a proper 7,he just isn't good enough at the very top level.Putting a younger version of Jenning in won't make any difference.

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Post by Irish Curry Tue 08 Nov 2011, 6:20 pm

I'm not sure I get this obsesion with a fetcher as a 7. Warburton did not beat us by himself, Wales were the better team. New Zealand didn't win the World Cup because of McCaws "legal" skills in the rucks but thats slightly different. The point is having an out and out 7 in the team is not the be all and end all. Its the rest of the team that matters and their skill levels and comitment. SOB is better then Jenning and so is Ferris. Therefor they should be picked ahead of Jennings.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 08 Nov 2011, 6:27 pm

Yeah a lot of people just seem to be regurgitating what George Hook said after the quarter final defeat.He seems to think that if we find a fetching 7 all will be good in Irish rugby.I think he only makes that argument because he knows we don't have a fetching 7 so he can't be proven wrong yet again.

Our main problem is lack of penetration in the centre,the recent injury news on BoD partly explains this and I feel he probably shouldn't have played as it clearly affected his performance.I am optimistic that he'll come back and be a useful player again once he's recovered so we have time to bed in his replacement.

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Post by Feckless Rogue Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:47 pm

I agree. Our pack was good in the World Cup. The problem was midfield. ROG, D'arcy and O'Driscoll was not a good combination. Any one of them would be useful with faster/bigger/stronger players around them. But the three of them together created nothing against Wales. Their age did show. I want Sexton at 10 and Bowe at 13. They'd be much more threatening. At 12 I'm not sure. What do ye reckon?
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:57 pm

When/if BOD returns, I think he should be playing his final days with Ireland in the 12 shirt. For the 6 nations we should probably just continue playing D'Arcy. Bring in a new 13 immediately. I think that Kidney is probably going to choose either McFadden or Earls, which is unfortunate.

We really need a new, young, exciting 13 to grow up with the Ireland side. To me the best choice is Nevin Spence, even though he seems to be playing second fiddle to Cave right now (I rate Spence higher personally).

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Post by Rava Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:09 pm

I don't really care who plays 13 as long as Paddy Wallace is playing at 12.

Oh, and Rory Best for Captain!
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:19 pm

Nah this time Paddy should stay with Ulster.. since he won't even be getting any gametime with Ireland we could do with keeping him for us.

Rory Best for captain is a good call though in all seriousness thumbsup

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