The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

+12
LeinsterFan4life
Feckless Rogue
Notch
asoreleftshoulder
anotherworldofpain
Sin é
pete (buachaill on eirne)
valjester
red_stag
Rory_Gallagher
rodders
Thomond
16 posters

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm

It has been a long time coming, but my thoughts on our tourn in NZ are here, debate criticize do whatever the heck you want within site rules!


I think Irish fans entered the Summer tour with a sense of cautious optimism. The backbone of the team (Leinster/Ulster) both reached the final of the Heineken Cup with Leinster emerging victorious.
While, this provincial success was quite amazing, we Irish fans knew that at international level, we have often struggled. Many speculate over the reasons, in reality its is somewhere in between having players who aren't good enough and the tactics of Director of Rugby Declan Kidney and his staff. With the All Blacks replacing former coach Graham Henry with Steve Hansen, I think the Irish faithful saw the first test as their best opportunity to finally notch a win.

So the first game came, the Irish forwards put in an outstanding performance, Sean O'Brien, Rory Best and Declan Fitzpatrick were stellar. Ireland were arguably superior at the breakdown and had some dominance in the scrum. The problems lay outside. The Irish backs have struggled throughout Kidney's tenure, their back play is somewhat archaic and while try scoring isn't a huge issue for Ireland their creativity is. Kidney surprisingly picked a relatively inexperienced team, Simon Zebo and Declan Fitzpatrick gaining their first caps, Peter O'Mahony only had one previous cap while Brian O'Driscoll took on a new role at inside centre. Wingers Fergus McFadden and Simon Zebo were exposed, a lack of communication also proved to be a problem. McFadden got drawn in at times but he and Earls didn't communicate effectively resulting in some terrible gaps in defence. New Zealand winger grabbed three tries on his debut which largely culminated from poor Irish defence. A final score of 42-10 in favour of the All Blacks meant a bleak outlook, yet Irish fans knew if their backs could front up in the tackle and offer something going forward the match would be a lot tighter.

So the second test was held in Christchurch. . Ireland gave the All Blacks an almighty shock, with the home side eventually winning out on a scoreline of 22-19. Ireland made 4 changes. The injured Keith Earls was replaced by Gordon D'Arcy. Andrew Trimble was favoured ahead of Simon Zebo, Mike Ross replaced Declan Fitzpatrick and Kevin McLaughlin replaced Peter O'Mahony. While Victor Vito replaced Adam Thomson in the All Blacks line-up. The Irish forwards picked up where they left out showing superiority at the breakdown and also putting in a decent effort come scrum time. The backs also stood up and brought intensity and physicality that was absent in the first test. At times they showed some intricate backplay but mainly they used physical and powerful runners and recycled quickly . The Irish kept the All Blacks in the game by giving away silly and needless penalties, as the shell-shocked Kiwis struggled to create try scoring opportunities. They managed one in the second half but Ireland managed to tie the game at 19-19, and after Israel Dagg's sin binning for an aerial challenge on Rob Kearney, Ireland were awarded a penalty. While it seemed that captain Brian O'Driscoll wanted to go down the line with the resulting penalty, Johnny Sexton opted for the posts and his effort ultimately fell short. After a penalty which caused consternation among some Irish fans, the All Blacks marched down the field with Dan Carter sinking the winning drop goal to break Irish hearts.

The third test is something most Irish fans have blanked from their memory. In the absence of Dan Carter and Kieran Read, the All Blacks turned in a superb performance, Aaron Cruden and Sam Cane deputising brilliantly for the absent duo. The Irish team of the second test failed to turn up , the lacked physicality, slipped off tackles stood off the All Blacks and looked like they wanted to catch the plane home at times. Some mind-boggling selections like playing Paddy Wallace who only arrived in NZ on the Thursday of the game were a bit odd but all round Ireland were awful and this lead to an embarrassing 60-0 loss.



Irish team Analysis


Coaching staff

Declan Kidney - 5/10
While he obviously missed key players like Tommy Bowe, Paul O'Connell and Stephen Ferris, as well as the versatility of Luke Fitzgerald, the performances of the first and final test were poor. Our tactics were awful and we persisted to kick ball to the All Blacks without a good kick chase. While he isn't directly in charge of our backplay you have to feel his ideas have some merit, it's somewhat strange because his Munster played with more panache then the current Ireland backline do. I think that some fans place a bit too much blame on Kidney but he does deserve a fair bit and I think it might be time to get some new ideas into the Irish team and setup. His marks mainly come from the 2nd test performance and the decent play by our forwards in the first 2 games


Gert Smal- 8/10


The Irish forwards coach deserves immense praise for the way the pack played in the first two tests, they were dominant at the breakdown, the scrum was solid with new cap Declan Fitzpatrick and as good with Mike Ross. If Fitzpatrick can work on some of his fitness/health issues, then there is a spot available for him in the Irish setup.


Les Kiss- 4/10
The rating is admittedly harsh and I don't think it's all his fault, more the IRFU who seem to be insisting on Kiss working two jobs. When Kiss was solely our defensive coach, we had a very reliable defensive unit, conceding the least amount of points in the 2011 6 Nations (tied with England) and had the second best defence in 2009. Yet after the departure of Alan Gaffney, Kiss was also asked to take up the role of backs coach, our defence suffered a sharp decline, dropping from tied first to 4th overall. Our backplay hasn't been great either, at times we put some moves together but overall we seem to just go through the middle and hope gaps appear. Similar tactics work for the Welsh, but they have far more big target runners than Ireland have. I think Kiss could still do a very good job as our defence coach but I don't think he has what is takes to be a backs coach.


Players that enhanced their Reputations


Sean O'Brien- It might seem odd that a former ERC European Player of the year could do much more to enhance his reputation but "SOB" did. O'Brien confirmed that he is a superb backrow operator. While I think the Irish aren't in need of the classic "7" so many claim we need, O'Brien was a menace at the breakdown and arguably outshined Richie McCaw over the first two tests. O'Brien showed he has the ability to play all 3 backrow positions effectively at the highest level having seen him play 6 and 8 for his province and country.

Declan Fitzpatrick- While the Ulster man deputised for John Afoa in the Heineken Cup Semi final and played extremely well, I'm sure I wasn't the only Irish fan worried when I heard Mike Ross was definitely out of the first test. Fitzpatrick and his front partners Rory best and Cian Healy marshalled the All Blacks scrum, and enjoyed a bit of dominance at times but parity for the large part. Most of us expected trouble from the New Zealand scrum but credit to Fitzpatrick he was imperious. There's a spot in the Irish setup if he can work on his fitness and injury problems.


Cian Healy - At times, Healy has struggled in the international arena but over the tour he did a very good job on Owen Franks. He was used sparingly by the Irish in terms of ball carrying but we all know what he can do there and he was effective when used.


Donnacha Ryan- In the absence of Paul O'Connell, Ryan was very effective in the lineout while also disrupting at the breakdown and hitting tackles with incredible ferocity. He should partner O'Connell in the Autumn Internationals with Dan Tuohy, who performed solidly on the bench.




(c) Copyright 606v2 2012. Please do not reproduce without permission


Rest can be found here: http://v2journal.com/ireland-rugby--summer-tour-review.html


Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:33 pm

Yeah pretty much spot on Thomond. Very good assessment.

Would add Rory Best to the players who enhanced their reputation and think you are harsh on Kiss. McLaughin and Sexton did well too, particularly the second test.

The defensive gameplan on SBW worked a treat in the first two tests and the defensive problems imo were down to individuals and selection issues rather than Kiss imo.

I'd almost wrrite the 3rd test off as a very bad at the office and say that the weather conditions and AB complacency helped us a bit in the second test.

Somewhere between test 1 and 2 is probably the best reflection of where the side is at. Over 3 tests we were well beaten but overall there are plenty of positives to take away along with the negatives.

This will prove a very productive learning experience for Irish rugby and is maybe a reality check to those, including myself, who were reading a bit too much into the fantastic performances of the provinces in recent times.

We are clearly off the pace of the the top 5-6 sides now but the gap in class and ability is not insurmountable, but we need to start moving in the right direction again and quickly.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:38 pm

An enjoyable read Thomond, I always enjoy reading your thoughts on irish rugby.

Interesting that the players who enhanced their reputations are all forwards. We really do have a world class pack IMO, and the fact we managed to at the very least hold our own at the breakdown in the first two tests (I would argue we dominated in that area) against NZ, is huge. We need to capitalise on that.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:58 pm

Rory I think our pack is reliant on a handful of top individual players, as opposed to us having a world class pack per se.

There is still a real lack of depth there but hopefully thos tour will have helped.

Tuohy I think had a mainly positive tour, others disagree but I think he was very solid and had an excellent partnership with Ryan. POM struggled at blindside in the first test but showed some real class in the second. Heaslip had his best game in years in the second test.

In terms of the backs O'Driscoll, Bowe, Sexton and Kearney are our only proven top class players right now imo. The midfield is a real achilles heal right now and when Bowe is out theres a lack of cutting edge out wide too.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Mon 30 Jul 2012, 2:04 pm

I think some of those individual players are also team players though, even if they are individually brilliant. Healy, Best, O'Brien and Ryan are going to be essential over the next 4 years or so. All four of those guys proved that they are the real deal in NZ. The other positions will be up for grabs, mainly because we don't know how long O'Connell will last, or how fit Ferris will be.

I think we can build a really effective pack for the future, and it isn't going to be long before that happens either. We may see Henderson sooner rather than later partnering Ryan, we already know how many talented back row players we have, and at 3 we are finally getting some options.

I see a lot of promise for Ireland in the forwards. In the backs however, I don't have a clue what is going to happen. They are so disorganised and out of their depth it isn't even funny.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Mon 30 Jul 2012, 2:11 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think some of those individual players are also team players though, even if they are individually brilliant.

No they are team players, thats not what I meant. What I mean is the general standard of our forwards isn't that high. Take out a few of those guys and there is a big drop in quality. We need more depth and competition there.

Strauss is controversial topic but we need to see him and Cronin put real pressure on Best. Likewise Fitzpatrick, Mcallistair and Toner on Ross, Healy and Ryan respectively.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Mon 30 Jul 2012, 2:13 pm

Sorry I misunderstood what you said rodders. Yeah you are right, though to be honest the players are there, just not getting game time. We have some really good options to come over the next few years. Just depends how soon they get their chances. Whistle

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Mon 30 Jul 2012, 5:24 pm

Rodders, I may have been harsh on Kiss alright, some of our alirgnment and organisation was poor more so in the first test but yes individual errors creeped in a lot.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Mon 30 Jul 2012, 9:22 pm

Thomond - this is off topic, but I checked the Munster website and it says Sean Dougall (I know nothing about him other than what Sin has told me, I hope he can pop in and answer) is a hooker, but I thought he was a flanker? Similar situation for Burns in Ulster, who I thought was a flanker but he is listed now as a hooker. Anyone know what this is about? Have they both changed positions?

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by red_stag Tue 31 Jul 2012, 12:15 am

Rory, I'm 99% sure you've checked Sean Henry who is a hooker. Sean Dougall is definitely a flanker.
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 34
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 1:00 am

Stag, I thought he was, but look at the Munster website:

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=98383&includeref=dynamic

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by valjester Tue 31 Jul 2012, 5:51 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag, I thought he was, but look at the Munster website:

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=98383&includeref=dynamic

That would have something to do with the person in charge of the Munster site screwing up. He has played all of his rugby in the backrow, and it would be extremely stupid by Munster to try and convert him to a hooker, especially considering the amount of hookers they already have on their books.

valjester

Posts : 1874
Join date : 2011-06-19
Location : here, there and everywhere

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 31 Jul 2012, 11:05 am

Not to really take a bite but I believe 5/10 is average. I thought Kidney was bad so I'd give him 3/10. Our players weren't up for the 3rd test at all. The Paddy Wallace fiasco. He is ultimately in charge of what the backs do. Staying with Murray over Reddan. Things like that make me think he did fairly poorly

Other than that a great summary in my books Thomond. OK

Healy-Best-Ryan-SOB-Sexton-Bowe-Kearney

These are the guys we need to rebuild our team around

pete (buachaill on eirne)

Posts : 5882
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 34
Location : Wicklow

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 12:29 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Healy-Best-Ryan-SOB-Sexton-Bowe-Kearney

These are the guys we need to rebuild our team around

Apart from leaving out Stephen Ferris, I am in agreement with that.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 12:31 pm

Rodders, can Ferris be relied upon. I really don't know if any of us know how long he has left what with his injury woes.


Pete, it got a 5 as we produced one solid and decent performance. Could easily have brought it down to a 4 or a 3 though.


Rory, I'd say it's a mistake it is a change that can be made but a but late for it now I would say if it were happening.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 12:37 pm

Thomond wrote:Rodders, can Ferris be relied upon. I really don't know if any of us know how long he has left what with his injury woes.

Well he played nearly every game since last summer so I'd say he can be relied on yes. He wasn't the only player to miss the tour.

Shortlisted for IRFU and ERC player of the season so I would have no issue calling him one of our best players.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 12:55 pm

He is one of our best plater no denying that injuries and staying fit for Ulster more so than Ireland is his problem.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 1:02 pm

No it is a problem but I think over the last few seasons, apart from a couple of high profile injuries, hes been available for the big games more often than not.

There are question marks over his long term future but I would still see him as a key player moving forward towards to the next RWC.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:07 pm

If Ferris is fit, he starts. He is definitely one of our core players to build a team around, and he was sorely missed down in NZ. We needed someone with his physical presence.

However, Pete/Thomond are right to feel a bit cautious about his fitness. I'm not sure he can be relied on unfortunately.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:08 pm

valjester wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag, I thought he was, but look at the Munster website:

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=98383&includeref=dynamic

That would have something to do with the person in charge of the Munster site screwing up. He has played all of his rugby in the backrow, and it would be extremely stupid by Munster to try and convert him to a hooker, especially considering the amount of hookers they already have on their books.

Thanks Val. thumbsup

Any info on Burns for Ulster? I thought he was a flanker but it is the same story with him on the Ulster website.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sin é Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:12 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Thomond - this is off topic, but I checked the Munster website and it says Sean Dougall (I know nothing about him other than what Sin has told me, I hope he can pop in and answer) is a hooker, but I thought he was a flanker? Similar situation for Burns in Ulster, who I thought was a flanker but he is listed now as a hooker. Anyone know what this is about? Have they both changed positions?

Dugall is an openside flanker. He played for the Ulster Ravens in B+I cup against Munster in 2010 in that position and he played there all season for Rotherham. When with Ulster he was attached to Malone. Seems to have missed two seasons to injury. Interview with him.

http://talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/others-leagues/rotherham-to-munster


back on topic now.

See in the Examiner today Earls describes 3rd test as being 'embarrassing'.

Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by anotherworldofpain Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:15 pm

Cian Healey was the outstanding player for Ireland for my mind. I think he get injury in the 3rd match and it make some big difference, the all blacks also target him at the ruck for this match after he make a menace of himself in #1 and particular #2 game. There is some big complement!

I think game #2 for the all blacks was very bad one because they go to the well one time too many about "Christchurch" and too much emotional and not enough focus on technical.

One small point is that Sam Cane came in to cover 7 for McCaw and McCaw cover Keiran Read at 8, not Sam Cane in for Read. thumbsup But this mean the all blacks had more focus on fetching at the ruck and added athleticism and quick to the approach to counter the Ireland dominance at the ruck. This free up the ball and move the point of attack and this really what made Ireland look so lost and AB so many points. They took away the Ireland strength from game #2. Just excellent coaching and combinatorism.

I thought Zebo looked out of depth and was a passenger, in the nicest possible way. He can't defend and has too low work rate in attack. He is fast but lack any penetration skill and not smart rugby brain about support lines. He need to learn from Chris Ashton and Corey Jane.

anotherworldofpain

Posts : 2803
Join date : 2012-04-05
Age : 43
Location : St John's Wood, London

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:39 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:Cian Healey was the outstanding player for Ireland for my mind. I think he get injury in the 3rd match and it make some big difference, the all blacks also target him at the ruck for this match after he make a menace of himself in #1 and particular #2 game. There is some big complement!

I think game #2 for the all blacks was very bad one because they go to the well one time too many about "Christchurch" and too much emotional and not enough focus on technical.

One small point is that Sam Cane came in to cover 7 for McCaw and McCaw cover Keiran Read at 8, not Sam Cane in for Read. thumbsup But this mean the all blacks had more focus on fetching at the ruck and added athleticism and quick to the approach to counter the Ireland dominance at the ruck. This free up the ball and move the point of attack and this really what made Ireland look so lost and AB so many points. They took away the Ireland strength from game #2. Just excellent coaching and combinatorism.

I thought Zebo looked out of depth and was a passenger, in the nicest possible way. He can't defend and has too low work rate in attack. He is fast but lack any penetration skill and not smart rugby brain about support lines. He need to learn from Chris Ashton and Corey Jane.


I forgot to mention Cane played 7 but he did come in for Read in the second test? Didn't he? Zebo looked decent in attack poor in defence there are guys who have had worst debuts on the wing. Bowe was not great when he first got gametime for Ireland.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by red_stag Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:44 pm

Anotherworldofpain,

I agree about Cian Healy. I thought he was excellent.

Regarding Zebo, this was an iconic moment in the battle of aspiring Irish wingers which was over looked by the coaching staff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZJuHJcfdQ
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 34
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:48 pm

Most wingers will ourtun Denis Hurley for pace, after that Jones bollixed up coompletely and Zebo could have done a better job, certainly well taken though. I think Zebo gets a lot more stick on here than he deserves compared to the zilch Gilroy gets. I agree Gilroy should be ahead of him in the pecking order (I would have taken both)

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:48 pm

Thomond wrote:Bowe was not great when he first got gametime for Ireland.

That is a very good point. Bowe was absolutely schooled by Sivavatu in his second test (I think). Back then I'd never have imagined he'd have become such a good player. Not getting selected for the 2008 RWC was a real turning point for him, so I wouldn't write Zebo off yet.

He did look out of his depth at times but he wasn't the only one.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 2:51 pm

Thomond wrote: I think Zebo gets a lot more stick on here than he deserves compared to the zilch Gilroy gets. I agree Gilroy should be ahead of him in the pecking order (I would have taken both)

What stick does Gilroy deserve then?

So far Gilroy has hardly put a foot wrong for me at the levels hes been exposed too. He needs to improve his offloading but other than that his all round game is very good for such a young player.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:00 pm

He certainly deserves some, not a lot he has flaws too, the way people go on about him you swear he is feicing Dennis Hickie. I think his positioning, defence (pretty solid) and maybe kicking game can be improved.


Zebo, I think he id a decent tackler, he stopped several tries for Munster this year, one in the Connacht away game stands out. His positioning, passing and decision making are areas he needs to improve big time. From what little we have seen he has a decent kicking game but can improve but doesn't seem to be given the responsibility to kick often yet.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sin é Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:03 pm

red_stag wrote:Anotherworldofpain,

I agree about Cian Healy. I thought he was excellent.

Regarding Zebo, this was an iconic moment in the battle of aspiring Irish wingers which was over looked by the coaching staff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZJuHJcfdQ

I think both of them played in the Ba-Baas game, so its inaccurate to say that anything was overlooked in this instance by the coaching staff.

If it had gone the other way, would people be saying that the coaching staff ignored Zebo's hattrick against Northampton.

It should also be said that Zebo was not the main culprit in that lapse in defence - at least he made it over from the other side of the pitch.



Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sin é Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:06 pm

It should also be remembered that Ulster may have requested he didn't go if at all possible because they were going to be having a lot of delayed returns for the start of the season (Trimble, Bowe & Cave, Wallace (not to mention Pienaar)!

Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:11 pm

Thomond wrote:He certainly deserves some, not a lot he has flaws too, the way people go on about him you swear he is feicing Dennis Hickie.

No idea why you are bringin Hickie into it but having watched Hickie at a young age I think Gilroy has easily as much potential.

No idea why anyone would want to have a go at Gilroy. A young guy who has excelled in his first two seasons of professional rugby and risen to the challenges put to him.

Hasn't been bigged up or hyped by the media the way Zebo has.

rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:13 pm

Zebo hasn't been hyped at all. I think people have actually been quick to have a cut off him. Gilroy is ahead of Zebo at the moment, but he is not the complete article. Zebo gets way more criticism than Gilroy.


It's not having a go it's just an honest statement. He is not the finished article and neither is Zebo.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by red_stag Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:17 pm

Could have just left that useless lump Trimble behind and saved us all a lot of worry Very Happy

Will do well to start for Ulster next year.

09 Pienaar
10 Jackson
11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Cave
14 Bowe
15 Payne
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 34
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:17 pm

Thomond wrote:Zebo hasn't been hyped at all. I think people have actually been quick to have a cut off him. Gilroy is ahead of Zebo at the moment, but he is not the complete article. Zebo gets way more criticism than Gilroy.


It's not having a go it's just an honest statement. He is not the finished article and neither is Zebo.

I didn't say Gilroy was the complete article. Zebo is being citicised because of his performance against NZ which is what the thread is about.

How can Gilroy be critcised if he wasn't even on tour? Your comparison makes no sense whatsoever.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:21 pm

I'm talking in general on Gilroy, and Zebo, can't exactly compare in international rugby as both haven't played in it. Hegets criticism every week that's somewhat harsh in my opinion they pick him out for mistakes that most wingers make in matches, i.e positioning.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:27 pm

So rather than defend Zebos performance directly, you criticise another player, who wasn't even involved, to hide Zebos inadequacies?

Has it occured to you that Zebo might actually deserve some of the criticism he's getting and that his performances are not in any way related to or dependent on Gilroys or anyone elses?





rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:30 pm

He does deserve criticism I never said he didn't (just less) but Gilroy also deserves some that's all I'm saying.

Your first point hasn't got much to do with it. I have defended Zebo alread,y I beleive his defence is solid it's positioning which is a problem and in a year he has come on a lot.


Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:35 pm

How can Gilroy deserve criticism on a thread about the NZ summer tour?
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:36 pm

Did you not see my post where I said in general? We're talking HC/Rabo.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by red_stag Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:36 pm

Yea Thomond thats pretty bizarre.

Zebo is criticised for his international performance

Gilroy has no international performance
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 34
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:44 pm

I'm not talking about international and haven't been. Never mentioned international you brought in HC rugby and Gilroy and we went from there. Only time I mentioned Ireland was Hickie

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:51 pm

Zebo was criticised by AWOP.

Stag showed a video which hilights Zebo's defensive frailties.

You've decided to subsequently have a pop at Gilroy and compare him to a guy who's retired 5 seasons and who won 60 plus caps.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 41

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:56 pm

That was more Jones' fault really, Zebo didn't cover himself in glory like but are you really going to blame it all on him?


How am I having a pop at him? I'm just saying he doesn't get criticized , he desrves some, not a lot as he is playing remarkably well at such an early stage of his career. I don't accuse you of having a pop off anyone when you criticize the Munster lads or Zebo, not much of a difference.


Is Zebo defensively frail? A fair bit yes, his positioning catches him out a fair bit and he can be exploited, he is a very good tackler though, solid and has stopped tries against Connacht and a few overlaps in other matches.


Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by red_stag Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:57 pm

Thomond,

Zebo's main problem internationally was defense. I feel that he was exposed defensively for that try and the writing was on the wall.

It was no surprise that on a tougher level (people wont convince me that HEC is the same level of intensity as test rugby) he was shown up.

Different horses for different courses. Julian Savea is 6 foot 4 and weight 105kg. Zebo has a great future ahead of him but needs to be used in the right manner.
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 34
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 3:59 pm

The Gilroy try? Jones and Hurley were at fault for that. Zebo deserves some but I wouldn't place a lot of blame on him.

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by red_stag Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:09 pm

Thomond I am not blaming him for the try.

I am saying he showed defensive frailty
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 34
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:11 pm

What criticism does Gilroy deserve, Thomond? He has hardly put a foot wrong. He scored less tries this season than last, and less than Zebo, if he can be criticised for that. However, that try he scored against Munster was remarkable and nobody saw it coming. It wasn't just poor defence, it was individual brilliance by Gilroy. At that point he seemed to get his confidence back because he started beating defenders with ease from that point onward.

This feels like it is becoming a Munster vs Ulster thing. It shouldn't be, there are plenty of Ulster players who I think aren't good enough, and I know rodders also feels the same way about a lot of the Ulster players. Gilroy has shown fantastic potential so far though, there is no need to try and find things to criticise when there is very little he has done wrong.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11324
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:12 pm

For the try? If he doesn't have much blame how is he frail in that instance? Is he frail in other scenarios yes a bit, it's his positioning more so than his tackling though.


That is one of the tougher tackles to make in rugby, could he have done better obviously but to say it makes him frail is harsh, I've seen Kearney miss one or two of those over the years, is he frail?

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:14 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What criticism does Gilroy deserve, Thomond? He has hardly put a foot wrong. He scored less tries this season than last, and less than Zebo, if he can be criticised for that. However, that try he scored against Munster was remarkable and nobody saw it coming. It wasn't just poor defence, it was individual brilliance by Gilroy. At that point he seemed to get his confidence back because he started beating defenders with ease from that point onward.

This feels like it is becoming a Munster vs Ulster thing. It shouldn't be, there are plenty of Ulster players who I think aren't good enough, and I know rodders also feels the same way about a lot of the Ulster players. Gilroy has shown fantastic potential so far though, there is no need to try and find things to criticise when there is very little he has done wrong.


I've more or less outlined my reasons above as for why he deserves criticism. Gilroy has been superb but he has a few minor issues people seem to ignore. Zebo gets criticised for certain things Gilroy doesn't like positioning . Gilroy gets caught out at times albeit rarely and it isn't mentioned. Zebo gets lambasted for it. Why?


Last edited by Thomond on Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sin é Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:18 pm

red_stag wrote:Thomond,

Zebo's main problem internationally was defense. I feel that he was exposed defensively for that try and the writing was on the wall.

It was no surprise that on a tougher level (people wont convince me that HEC is the same level of intensity as test rugby) he was shown up.

Different horses for different courses. Julian Savea is 6 foot 4 and weight 105kg. Zebo has a great future ahead of him but needs to be used in the right manner.

Give the lad a break - some people are far too quick to criticise. Not only was it Zebo first international (against the ABs!), it was his first time to play with BOD, Kearney & McFadden/Trimble in the backs as well so really had a minimum amount of time learning the ropes. If he is still making major mistakes after 10/12 caps, maybe then is the time to criticise him.

By the way, Savea scored all his trys down McFadden's wing.

A season hanging out with Doug Howlett should sort out a lot of Zebo's positioning problems.
Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum