England to have caretaker coaches through 6n?

by Geordie Sun 20 Nov 2011, 8:50 pm

There appears to be a few rumours popping about that England will go with the following for the 6n....

Stuart Lancaster pencilled in to be caretaker head coach,
Mike Ford in charge of defence and the backs
Graham Rowntree, upgraded to forwards coach

Anyone else heard these? Could they be true?

by hawalsh Sun 20 Nov 2011, 9:53 pm

Not heard the rumours, but apart from Mike Ford in charge of the backs, I wouldn't have a problem with it if it involved sorting out the hierarchy first then making sure we get the right manager & coaches in place with full managemnet backing.

Having run the RFU Academy and had good success with the Saxons for the last couple of years, Lancaster certainly knows more than most about the upcomming talent that could be brought in, so he should be a good stopgap.

It would be nice to have a good 6N, but I'm quite willing to forgo that and take more time about adressing issues if it means better foundations are laid for the future.

by majesticimperialman Sun 20 Nov 2011, 9:55 pm

If England are going to have a caretaker coach, how long before a permanenet coach is brought in..Why are they going to be having a caretaker coach, why can the not bring in a permanent coach instead.

Who are the wating for to be a permanent coach, are they waiting for an international coach, SCW has already ruled himself out along wing Nick Mallet.

by robbo277 Sun 20 Nov 2011, 10:05 pm

I don't think we should be rushing into making a coaching appointment, and a caretaker might be the best option for now. The RFU need to take their time and make sure they get the right man in the position and not make any rash decisions.

by Coltnet Sun 20 Nov 2011, 10:12 pm

I agree, lets not rush this. Can we wait until post Olympics to get the right person at the top, i.e. SCW? I think/hope so if it means a better outcome than at present. And lets be honest that is not difficult! Sacrifice the 6N for the good of our development.

by hawalsh Sun 20 Nov 2011, 10:26 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:If England are going to have a caretaker coach, how long before a permanenet coach is brought in..Why are they going to be having a caretaker coach, why can the not bring in a permanent coach instead.

Who are the wating for to be a permanent coach, are they waiting for an international coach, SCW has already ruled himself out along wing Nick Mallet.

Its not a matter of waiting for any coach that isn't currently available, it's about getting the mangement structure sorted first, then getting them to select the new manager, and whether that can be done before the 6N (selection of the EPS and training obviously starting prior).

At the moment any new manager appointment would effectively be made by Andrews, which would be highly questionable. If the new RFU chiefs and hierarchy are brought in after that, they may well not agree with the appointment and not be able to give it their full backing, which would get us nowhere.

This procedure needs to be gone about the right way for once.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Nov 2011, 7:50 am

The Telegraph is reporting that Lancaster will be a caretaker coach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8903011/England-set-to-name-Saxons-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-in-caretaker-role-for-Six-Nations-Championship.html

To be honest it makes sense. there needs to be a top down re-organisation, starting at the RFU.

So a Chief Exec needs to be appointed.
They need to decide who is in charge of Elite Rugby.
That person should choose the Head Coach (to be ratified by the RFU board?) and who heads up the development streams.
The head coach chooses the coaches that he wants.

That way we at least have accountability.

If a permanent Head Coach is appointed now, before the positions above them are filled, we could have the situation where the incoming bosses have no faith in teh Head Coach.

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:02 am

Also gives Northampton a chance to find a replacement at the end of the season...

by TJ1 Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:10 am

Makes sense to me. The RFU need the management structure in place before appointing a coach.

However I suspect Woodward is angling for a job and I think that would be a very backward step so keep him away

by Portnoy Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:20 am

LondonTiger wrote:The Telegraph is reporting that Lancaster will be a caretaker coach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8903011/England-set-to-name-Saxons-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-in-caretaker-role-for-Six-Nations-Championship.html

To be honest it makes sense. there needs to be a top down re-organisation, starting at the RFU.

So a Chief Exec needs to be appointed.
They need to decide who is in charge of Elite Rugby.
That person should choose the Head Coach (to be ratified by the RFU board?) and who heads up the development streams.
The head coach chooses the coaches that he wants.

That way we at least have accountability.

If a permanent Head Coach is appointed now, before the positions above them are filled, we could have the situation where the incoming bosses have no faith in teh Head Coach.

Agreed MT.

Who knows if MJ would come back into the mix when the hierarchical structures are restored?

This to me is the nadir of RFU competence. Almost every wrong decision that could have been made has been made over the past 24 months.

Problem is that what we are left with is the same aggrandising clique required to have a simultaneous road to Damascus moment - English rugby v self-interest?

Maybe in 12-18 months' time after the RWC 2015 host treasure has been snatched back by the IRB because the RFU remains in turmoil, then it will be time for the yeomen of English rugby good and true to storm the leafy ramparts of SW15.

by red_stag Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:23 am

I think most people seems on agreement here.

The who RFU needs examining. Until that is resolved forget about the coach.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:35 am

My worry is that the RFU does not seem capable of re-organising itself.

Jeff Blacketts report stated that the entire management board should step down with the exception of Bill Beaumont. While Martyn thomas has been pushed out, the board voted not to sack themselves - no surprise, would turkeys vote for Christmas? Instead we now have rumours that they will push Blackett out.

The 58 members of the RFU council, who represent grass roots rugby in the main, may not be the "Old Farts" that Will Carling ranted about 20 years ago - but perhaps they are their kids.

The Professional Game Board who are tasked with "running" the professional game have a major conflict of interest. The 5 man panel is made up of 3 RFU people, Damian Hopley for the players and a Premier Rugby representative. The have to decide on the structure for elite rugby and the fate of Rob Andrew. The same Rob andrew who is one of teh RFU representatives.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

by red_stag Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:40 am

Its certainly a posionous state of affairs.

by offload Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:47 am

Definitely the right thing for England not to rush a coach before the structure is right.

The new coach needs the support of a strong CEO which should be the RFU's priority. If the RFU gets it act together they might attract a better coach because who would want the job today with squeaky still hanging around?

by doctor_grey Mon 21 Nov 2011, 10:06 am

Carpe Diem wrote:Also gives Northampton a chance to find a replacement at the end of the season...

I think you hit the nail on its head. Saints want to keep Mallinder. England/RFU are a mess. Put a trusted hand in charge for now, and get through the 6N and possibly the June Internationals. In the meantime the RFU had better get itself sorted. Then a hire for the long haul can be selected.

by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2011, 10:16 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:Also gives Northampton a chance to find a replacement at the end of the season...
I think you hit the nail on its head. Saints want to keep Mallinder. England/RFU are a mess. Put a trusted hand in charge for now, and get through the 6N and possibly the June Internationals. In the meantime the RFU had better get itself sorted. Then a hire for the long haul can be selected.

The problem is (and i do appreciate its short term)...but Stuart Lancaster as Head Coach, and Mike Ford as backs coach....isnt inspiring to me...

But i guess i can put up with it....IF the RFU sort the mess out and bring in a world class coaching team to really bring out the best in our young talent.

by doctor_grey Mon 21 Nov 2011, 10:25 am

Mind, I am not talking about Mike Ford. He knows as much about backs play as I do about nuclear physics. I do think Stuart Lancaster is a good choice to try to keep the boat afloat for now. And most of the current England squad players have either played for him or know him a bit. Best choice in a bad situation. But, does this mean that someone at the RFU actually made a good decision?

by HERSH Mon 21 Nov 2011, 10:34 am

Just sent my CV to the RFU, no really I did. Very Happy

Watch this space.

by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2011, 10:38 am

Your right Dr....it stops a knee jerk reaction...and gives us time to look into things properly.

I also agree that it shows at least one person has so idea of common snese at the RFU.

The rest of the world should be worried....England are finally trying to get their house in order... Wink

by doctor_grey Mon 21 Nov 2011, 10:54 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:The rest of the world should be worried....England are finally trying to get their house in order...

Its always small steps. First, one good decision. Then after time, perhaps with some luck, another good decision. Then again, another one. And another one. Pretty soon, the RFU will be making good decisions all over the place!

I can hope, can't I?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Nov 2011, 11:07 am

The RFU are pleased to announce the appointment of the Rt Hon. Rupert Pelham Warner to the organisation's Management Board. Mr Pelham Warner comes with a vast array of experience, having represented Eton 3rds on two occassions, and attended the last 27 Varsity Matches. He replaces Norman Saddleworth who has taken up the recently created post of Rugby Ambassador to Antarctica. Norman first came to prominence for suggesting that the RFU should delay naming a Head Coach and instead appoint an interim coach. *****Report Ends*****

by hawalsh Mon 21 Nov 2011, 11:50 am

What worries me most about that Telegraph article is the suggestion that Wells might be given a role in the national academy. He's been a poison in England's approach for several years, we don't need him getting into the minds of players even earlier in their career.

by eirebilly Mon 21 Nov 2011, 1:23 pm

An interin manager? Perfect for Rob Andrew, he can then make him a scapegoat if he gets a couple of bad results and start over new distancing himself from any blame.

Seriously, an interim manager is a good idea but do people honestly feel that the RFU (Rob Andrew in particular) are going to change/reorganise? What time limit do you give and what do you do if nothing has changed in an acceptable time?

As far as i can see, top managers are avoiding the post like the plague until a possible structure has been put in place and RA is removed from his post.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 21 Nov 2011, 1:45 pm

I think Willy the groundsman would make a great caretaker coach for England. He would be a keen student of the dark arts and add a lot of mongrel to the England pack. He would be as mad as Lievremont in his selections but at least England would blood a lot of players for the new coach to have a good look at. He would make the Calcutta Cup even more of a certainty with his inside knowledge and the grounds would be immaculate which might encourage England to chance their arm more out wide and utilise their pace more.

by offload Mon 21 Nov 2011, 3:03 pm

Definitely the right thing for England not to rush a coach before the structure is right.

The new coach needs the support of a strong CEO which should be the RFU's priority. If the RFU gets it act together they might attract a better coach because who would want the job today with squeaky still hanging around?

by eirebilly Mon 21 Nov 2011, 3:45 pm

Offload, i understand what you are saying but what would be an acceptable time limit for such changes to be put in place? By accepting an intermin manager solution, the RFU are just giving themselves more time to cover their own behinds and paste over any cracks. This could go on for years, not months.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 21 Nov 2011, 3:47 pm

Also if there´s a caretaker coach, there´s more likelihood of having a caretaker captain. As well as some caretaker combinations that have been tried and tested rather than some new combinations at say centre and backrow in particular.

by eirebilly Mon 21 Nov 2011, 3:54 pm

It may just be me but the use of caretakers has never been a sucess. Will the caretaker manager have any real responsibilities or will he be a puppet on a string for say..... Rob Andrew?

by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2011, 4:07 pm

With Stuart Lacasters involvment with the Saxons....is there any chance he might throw a few wildcards in there....who he thinks should be stepping up...

by eirebilly Mon 21 Nov 2011, 4:14 pm

GeordieFalcon, is it certain that SL will take the position? What if he does and England dont perform and he is relieved of his duties, that could also involve his saxons duties.

Would he really want to take that risk?

by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2011, 4:24 pm

I cant see his performance with the senior team affecting his role with the Saxons.

Besides i dont think lancaster is that great a coach anyway...might be better if we moved him on aswell and got a quality coach for the saxons development aswell....

by offload Mon 21 Nov 2011, 4:25 pm

eirebilly wrote:Offload, i understand what you are saying but what would be an acceptable time limit for such changes to be put in place? By accepting an intermin manager solution, the RFU are just giving themselves more time to cover their own behinds and paste over any cracks. This could go on for years, not months.

Well only my opinion, but I would have thought a caretaker through the 6N's would not be unreasonable and would give the RFU until the summer to sort things out. With no management structure in place I can't see an immediate alternative.

by eirebilly Mon 21 Nov 2011, 4:36 pm

Geordie, stranger things have happened and i for one would'nt be trusting Rob Andrew as far as i could throw him so if i was SL i would'nt take the risk.

offload, in a normal situation i would agree with you 100%. Its just that i dont believe that the RFU are actually capable of re-organising themselves which makes this all seem a bad choice.

by hawalsh Mon 21 Nov 2011, 5:27 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Also if there´s a caretaker coach, there´s more likelihood of having a caretaker captain. As well as some caretaker combinations that have been tried and tested rather than some new combinations at say centre and backrow in particular.

It's far more likely that he'll back the young players he has been working with in the Saxons for the last couple of years than stick with tried and tested senior combinations.

In fact, he was put in charge of England for the match against the Barbarians earlier this year and he selected Turner-Hall & Trinder at centre, and Fearns, Narraway & Johnson (with Gibson coming off the bench) in the backrow.

by Guest Mon 21 Nov 2011, 6:58 pm

i would rather we had a permanent coach than a caretaker to be honest.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 21 Nov 2011, 7:39 pm

Caretaker coach should be Rob Andrew - at least for the first match against Scotland Smile

by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2011, 7:52 pm

hawalsh wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Also if there´s a caretaker coach, there´s more likelihood of having a caretaker captain. As well as some caretaker combinations that have been tried and tested rather than some new combinations at say centre and backrow in particular.

It's far more likely that he'll back the young players he has been working with in the Saxons for the last couple of years than stick with tried and tested senior combinations.

In fact, he was put in charge of England for the match against the Barbarians earlier this year and he selected Turner-Hall & Trinder at centre, and Fearns, Narraway & Johnson (with Gibson coming off the bench) in the backrow.

I would be quite happy with that back row in the 6n....

by majesticimperialman Mon 21 Nov 2011, 8:46 pm

It is just a thought but if Lancaster does become Englands caretaker coach for the 6ns, and he gets a Grand Slam or he takes England to winning the tournament with out a Grand Slam. Will he still be a caretaker coach? or will he become Englands permanet coach?

by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2011, 9:14 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:It is just a thought but if Lancaster does become Englands caretaker coach for the 6ns, and he gets a Grand Slam or he takes England to winning the tournament with out a Grand Slam. Will he still be a caretaker coach? or will he become Englands permanet coach?

He would remain caretaker coach i think....although if he had them playing fast dynamic rugby...and had the pack working at the breakdown...it would interesting....

by robbo277 Mon 21 Nov 2011, 11:32 pm

If a caretaker does well he could be given the gig full time, but if he doesn't then it's not the end of the world.

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 22 Nov 2011, 10:01 am

I read, I believe in the Independant that they are still trying to persuade Mallet to take on the role. He will not do so until the RFU sort themselves out and he knows who he would be working for i.e not RA.

Hence the caretaker coach.

SCW has ruled himself out of teh Head Coach / Manager role. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again was his attitude. Overall supremo is a different matter.

It would be interesting to see:

1) If Stuart Lancaster can work with Wells, so opposing views there I should think.
2) Will the caretaker coach have the power to sack the specialist coaches if they cannot agree on how the game should be played.
3) If he is successful will he be discarded in favour of a "name"

by funnyExiledScot Tue 22 Nov 2011, 11:23 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
hawalsh wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Also if there´s a caretaker coach, there´s more likelihood of having a caretaker captain. As well as some caretaker combinations that have been tried and tested rather than some new combinations at say centre and backrow in particular.

It's far more likely that he'll back the young players he has been working with in the Saxons for the last couple of years than stick with tried and tested senior combinations.

In fact, he was put in charge of England for the match against the Barbarians earlier this year and he selected Turner-Hall & Trinder at centre, and Fearns, Narraway & Johnson (with Gibson coming off the bench) in the backrow.

I would be quite happy with that back row in the 6n....

So would I. Three players who are neither form picks nor have any experience. Perfect for the Calcutta Cup at Murrayfield.

Braveheart

by eirebilly Tue 22 Nov 2011, 11:48 am

I ask again, just how much responsibility will the caretaker manager be given?

Will he be able to select his own coaches and players?

by Geordie Tue 22 Nov 2011, 12:02 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
hawalsh wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Also if there´s a caretaker coach, there´s more likelihood of having a caretaker captain. As well as some caretaker combinations that have been tried and tested rather than some new combinations at say centre and backrow in particular.

It's far more likely that he'll back the young players he has been working with in the Saxons for the last couple of years than stick with tried and tested senior combinations.

In fact, he was put in charge of England for the match against the Barbarians earlier this year and he selected Turner-Hall & Trinder at centre, and Fearns, Narraway & Johnson (with Gibson coming off the bench) in the backrow.

I would be quite happy with that back row in the 6n....

So would I. Three players who are neither form picks nor have any experience. Perfect for the Calcutta Cup at Murrayfield.

As oppose to the previous Easter, Moody and Croft which was just a nonsense back row...or the probable Easter, Croft and Wood which is lightweight and should be bullied by the Scots.

At least Fearns, Narraway and Johnson have a bit of aggression, speed and power about them...and can compete at the breakdown...

by funnyExiledScot Tue 22 Nov 2011, 12:16 pm

Pretty sure Easter, Croft and Wood comes in as a heavier combination than Fearns, Narraway and Johnson, and all three are certainly playing better rugby.

Currently Fearns and Narraway don't make the Bath and Glaws 1st XVs respectively. They would be ridiculous choices for England at present.

I have a lot of time for Tom Johnson, but I see no reason on form or ability to pick him ahead of Tom Croft or Chris Robshaw.

by yappysnap Tue 22 Nov 2011, 12:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
hawalsh wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Also if there´s a caretaker coach, there´s more likelihood of having a caretaker captain. As well as some caretaker combinations that have been tried and tested rather than some new combinations at say centre and backrow in particular.

It's far more likely that he'll back the young players he has been working with in the Saxons for the last couple of years than stick with tried and tested senior combinations.

In fact, he was put in charge of England for the match against the Barbarians earlier this year and he selected Turner-Hall & Trinder at centre, and Fearns, Narraway & Johnson (with Gibson coming off the bench) in the backrow.

I would be quite happy with that back row in the 6n....

So would I. Three players who are neither form picks nor have any experience. Perfect for the Calcutta Cup at Murrayfield.

As oppose to the previous Easter, Moody and Croft which was just a nonsense back row...or the probable Easter, Croft and Wood which is lightweight and should be bullied by the Scots.

At least Fearns, Narraway and Johnson have a bit of aggression, speed and power about them...and can compete at the breakdown...

Oddly though after these last two HC weekends the form English 8 has been...Easter. Did you see his line break step and try against Gloucester? Very Happy

6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Easter

19. Gibson/Fearns

by yappysnap Tue 22 Nov 2011, 12:21 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:It is just a thought but if Lancaster does become Englands caretaker coach for the 6ns, and he gets a Grand Slam or he takes England to winning the tournament with out a Grand Slam. Will he still be a caretaker coach? or will he become Englands permanet coach?

He would remain caretaker coach i think....although if he had them playing fast dynamic rugby...and had the pack working at the breakdown...it would interesting....

Isn't that how Cockerill originally got his role at Tigers? I'm sure he came in as a caretaker and then surprised everyone with how well he did and then the players warmed to him and he gets the ft role.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 22 Nov 2011, 1:13 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:...or the probable Easter, Croft and Wood which is lightweight and should be bullied by the Scots.

At least Fearns, Narraway and Johnson have a bit of aggression, speed and power about them...and can compete at the breakdown...

It's as I thought. Your preferred back row is lighter in each position, compared to the "lightweight" back row you don't like.

by doctor_grey Tue 22 Nov 2011, 1:39 pm

yappysnap wrote:Isn't that how Cockerill originally got his role at Tigers? I'm sure he came in as a caretaker and then surprised everyone with how well he did and then the players warmed to him and he gets the ft role.

Yes, but with a slight difference. Cockers was already a part of the Tigers family, and part of the coaching set-up. So he simply moved up, first temporary, then earned the position. It seems England are looking outside the current coaching set-up, which is the right decision from my point of view. I think we would all be happy if the caretaker does a bang-on job and earns the full time gig.

by Geordie Tue 22 Nov 2011, 2:18 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:...or the probable Easter, Croft and Wood which is lightweight and should be bullied by the Scots.

At least Fearns, Narraway and Johnson have a bit of aggression, speed and power about them...and can compete at the breakdown...

It's as I thought. Your preferred back row is lighter in each position, compared to the "lightweight" back row you don't like.

Ok i take out lightweight and put combatative, and dynamic.

PS For the record Tom Wood is one of my favorite players and would definately be one of the starting flankers (probably 7 until we find a real deal 7). ....but not with Croft on the other flank. I want to see a bruiser at 6 to compliment Wood, and a cracking alrounder at 8.

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