Next England Coaches and Squad.

If England are unable to appoint Clive Woodward as the supremo, then hopefully they will be able to get Graham Henry in there, who has expressed his interest in helping out the RFU. I honestly feel that unless England can find a high profile enough experienced replacement for Johnson, then they may have to stick with him. However I would feel that selection and overall control should be assisted by the surpremo (Woodward/Henry) If Johnson does stay then there will definitely need to be a shake up with the coaching staff. Mike Ford, Brian Smith and John Wells have to go. I don't mind Dave Aldred or Graham Rowntree staying on as they have done relatively good jobs.

I personally think there are enough talented young English coaches who can fill these roles. England are likely to choose Shaun Edwards as their first choice defence coach, however if that was to fall through I would personally go for Paul Gustard the Saracens defence coach as the second choice, he has done an outstanding job in the past couple of seasons. Forwards coach is an interesting choice and I've heard rumours England are interested in John Mallet. However I feel another young English coach Alex Sanderson of Saracens would be a quality choice, however only if Edwards was to get appointed as the defence coach, as you don't want a one club bias. Sanderson has been highly commended for the work he has done at Saracens and I feel he would gain instant respect from most of the players. Attack coach is a more difficult choice and the most obvious candidate I can think of would be Mike Catt.

Therefore if MJ stays as Head Coach I would like to see Shaun Edwards (Defence) Mike Catt (Attack) and Alex Sanderson (Forwards) replacing Ford, Smith and Wells.


Surrounding the issue of the next England squad, we have to take into consideration that players such as Steffon Armitage, Danny Cipriani, Jonny Wilkinson, Tom Palmer and James Haskell will be playing oversea's post world cup, so will not be available for selection. I would also like the England selection policy to get stricter. Meaning players such as Hendre Fourie, Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey will no longer be viable for selection. However if the player has gone through the English age grade system (M.Tuilagi), was born in England or has an English parent or grandparents then exceptions can be made.

I also feel that the old guard needs changing, therefore players such as Moody, Easter, Shaw, Thompson, Cueto, Tindall will no longer be considered for selection. I appreciate Shaw and Moody have already retired from international rugby, however it is about starting afresh and these players represent the past rather than moving forward.

My potential EPS squad would look something like this...

BACKS

B.Foden (Northampton) M.Brown (Harlequins) C.Ashton (Northampton) C.Sharples (Gloucester) D.Armitage (L.Irish) M.Banahan (Bath) M.Tuilagi (Leicester) J.Joseph (L.Irish) B.Barritt (Saracens) O.Farrell (Saracens) T.Flood (Leicester) C.Hodgson (Saracens) B.Youngs (Leicester) D.Care (Harlequins) J.Simpson (Wasps)

FORWARDS

A.Corbisiero (L.Irish) M.Stevens (Saracens) J.Marler (Harlequins) D.Cole (Leicester) D.Hartley (Northampton) R.Webber (Wasps) D.Paice (L.Irish) C.Lawes (Northampton) D.Attwood (Bath) G.Robson (Harlequins) L.Deacon (Leicester) T.Croft (Leicester) C.Robshaw (Harlequins) T.Wood (Northampton) D.Seymour (Sale) L.Narraway (Gloucester) P.Dowson (Northampton)

*Mike Brown has been the best premiership full-back for two seasons now and is very unlucky to have Foden ahead of him in the pecking order, he deserves a place in the squad, with some fine performances for Harlequins.
*Jonathan Joseph has been in spectacular form for London Irish at outside centre this season, solid defensively with a surprising knack of winning turnovers, whilst he has pace to burn and has been compared in attacking style to Jeremy Guscott, potential star.
*O.Farrell is another potential star and has so much composure for someone so young. He is extremely talented and can play 10, 12 or even 13 to a very high standard
*J.Marler may not be the finished article in the scrum, but he can only get better with more experience. There is no doubting that he is one of the most imposing props in the loose and he is another player who would flourish in an England camp with quality coaches.
*G.Robson has been outstanding for Quins this season, he has bulked up considerably and seems to have added a bit of extra pace to his game. Authoritative in the lineout, a very good tackler and strong ball carrier. Deserves a chance.
*D.Seymour has been in tremendous form for Sale this season and is easily their stand out player. Deserves a place in the squad on form.

What do you think of my coach choices? Do you agree/disagree with my potential England squad?

Dave Ellis would be another option as defence coach, he's already said he wants the job and France's defence was often superb, particularly at not giving away penalties, which has been a big problem for England.

I don't see any point in persisting with Hodgson, he's an excellent player, but Flood will be first choice and there's little reason in keeping a 31yo who won't make the next WC as backup for a couple of years when Burns or Ford could be getting valuable experience.

Farrell should concentrate on FH, that's where he plays best (a good controlling 10 option), there are better centres. I'd give Banahan's place to Twelvetrees.

Completely agree about Brown, and as such, though harsh on Armitage, having looked like he had regained some of his old form (though today proved he's still a huge penalty liability in the tackle and a little kick happy), I'd be inclined to drop him for an out and out wing. He fills in OK there, but it's noticable that he's missing the instincts a dedicated winger possesses when he's played at international level. I'd go for Short or Wade (contradicting myself slightly Jonny May or Homer who look more natural on the wing than Armitage would be other possibilities).

You've only got 32 in your EPS, it's usually 33 and I'd give that extra place to another prop, Mullan. I'd have Gray instead of Paice at hooker and Parling instead of Deacon at lock (the things he does well aren't enough, both locks need to have a dynamic edge, and at 31, although he could potentially make it to the next WC, he's unlikely to improve).

Narraway isn't good enough for international level, he doesn't stand out in the AP against good teams (his performance today was a prime example) and he's been pretty ordinary in his recent outings for the Saxons. At 28yo he should be approaching or already at his peak, and that just isn't evident. I'd back Fearns to come on further in his place. If Guest comes back from injury in the manner I expect I wouldn't hesitate to put him in the squad either.

I need to see more from Seymour before I'm convinced. His initial promise was followed by too many years of just decent performances for me to be won over just yet by the good performances this season in a league weakened by WC absentees. Wallace is the other name being put forward that I want to see more from over the next couple of months now the league is back to full strength.


The English selection policy in regards to 'nationality' won't get any stricter, the RFU will follow the IRB rules. If you're making exceptions for grandparents though (personally I don't think you should), then that wouldn't exclude Flutey as you suggested, he's got an English grandfather.

bugger off shaun edwards- we aint letting you have him

If Johnson stays then I'd imagine it will and should be with new coaches.

For what it's worth, I'd like to see a team of:

Nick Mallet (Manager)
Shaun Edwards (Defence)
Dean Richards (Forwards, starting when his ban finishes before the 2012 AIs)
Mike Catt (Attack)
Graham Rowntree (Scrum)

Obviously from a Welsh POV I hope we can keep Edwards.

What about Neal Back as one of the coaches? I rate him highly.

What England need is consistancy, so why is every suggesting that we(England)should go for Saun Edwards? Why? Wales have had some good times and some bad times, but they have never been consistant or soncnsistant enough for my likeing.

I relay think the Manager should be Martin Johnson. but i do believe that their should be a chnge in his back room staff.

Would probably like to see Jim Malinder as one coach and with maybe MIke catt(Dean Richards)once he as served his sentance.

Not sure on any other coaches.

majesticimperialman wrote:What England need is consistancy, so why is every suggesting that we(England)should go for Saun Edwards? Why? Wales have had some good times and some bad times, but they have never been consistant or soncnsistant enough for my likeing.

what's that word?

In fairness to Edwards, he's got a brilliant club record. Wasps only started going downhill after they had a raft of retirements and Edwards started spending half his year with Wales.

The rumour is that Edwards has been offered a full time role with the WRU which will include him doing consultancy for the Blues similar to Robin McBryde at teh Scarlets.

Ironically Howley is the only one who has come out and said he desperatly wants to stay yet I have a sneaking suspiscion he is the one that will be changed.

England should resist the charms of SCW they need to start building now not after the Olympics. The six nations is only 3 months away so they really need to get somthing in place quickly.

Personally I think they should go for,

Nick Mallet(Head), Dave Ellis (Defence), Catt (attack), Dean Ryan(forwards)

However if you get Mallet he will probably want to bring in his own team. Imposing a coaching team on a head coach didnt work for wales with ruddock and hasnt worked for england under robinson ashton or MJ. So if you get Mallett let him choose hos own backroom staff.

TycroesOsprey wrote:
England should resist the charms of SCW they need to start building now not after the Olympics. The six nations is only 3 months away so they really need to get somthing in place quickly.

Personally I think they should go for,

Nick Mallet(Head), Dave Ellis (Defence), Catt (attack), Dean Ryan(forwards)

However if you get Mallet he will probably want to bring in his own team. Imposing a coaching team on a head coach didnt work for wales with ruddock and hasnt worked for england under robinson ashton or MJ. So if you get Mallett let him choose hos own backroom staff.

Agree on SCW, but not just because he isn't available right now. Mallet has said he doesn't want a job before June 2012 either. My problem with SCW is that he hasn't coached rugby for 7 years. The game has changed a lot, and just because we were brilliant then doesn't mean he can make it so once more.

On imposing a coaching team - many would argue that the reason imposing a coaching team on Robinson, Ashton and Johnson didn't work is less that imposing a coaching team is in itself bad, and more that the coaching team in question are *&^%.

I'm sure a lot of coaches know each other pretty well even if they haven't worked together, and if you said to Mallet "we're thinking about hiring [insert world class coach] to work with you" then he'd jump at it, even if he hadn't worked with them before. You'd want Mallet to approve of the appointments, but that doesn't mean he has to conduct the search himself.

i think mallet will go to SA and no disrespect but if i had the choice between england and SA i would pick SA easily

welshy824 wrote:i think mallet will go to SA and no disrespect but if i had the choice between england and SA i would pick SA easily

Is there really a big chance of him being offered the springboks job though?

Your squad looks pretty good except Matt Stevens was shown up and lacked pure strength. He did a good job of impersonating a bendy toy. Incidentally, Nick Wood had him knots at the weekend.

Henry announces his plans at midday today so given the timeframe and hansens expressing his head coach ambitions i would guess the auckland blues is more likely, ruling out anything overseas. Be surprised hes decided anything that big in the last few days.
I think any blues ambitions might be to restengthen auckland rugby- until 97 the strongest playing union in the world.

Shaun Edwards? Really? He is extremely hit and miss and has only improved the defence once he found away for Warburton to lead it. Now Gustard at Sarries has put together a suffocating defence with a massive kick chase option. He would be my choice every time, Sarries one the AP on the back of that defence it is their major strength and one hell of a strength it is.

Farrell is a liability at 13 as shown vs Gloucester, he got burnt for speed on a couple of occasions by Trinder and ended up venting his frustrations with a shoulder charge and was lucky not to have a 10 minute sit down. He doesn't have the passing game to play 10 at the highest level and there are ICs in better form (his club mate Barritt for starters). I'd say it would be better for him to continue playing during the 6N so he can build up his experience. If you want another 10 then bring in Clegg, another 12 then bring in Twelvetrees or another 13 bring in Trinder.

I'd also drop one of Attwood or Deacon for Parling as he offers another top notch lineout option as well as a work horse around the park. He offers more athelticism than Deacon and a much more mature and controlled playing style than Attwood. I think retaining Easter for the 6N would make sense as well as it would help continuity. Dowson would have to be dropped to make way but Dowson has never really shone enough in my opinion, an extremely good club man but at 30 he is neither building for the future nor a definite selection so what's the point.

eirebilly wrote:What about Neal Back as one of the coaches? I rate him highly.

Needs more experience. I wouldn't be looking at coaches with less than 5 years of coaching experience. If he wasn't an ex-England international and world cup winner, you wouldn't be talking about him.

Jim Mallinder has expressed an interest in the England Manager's job, at least he has said that if it was offered, he would consider it. England could do a lot worse than him.

I'm not sure why Sean Edwards's name is being banded about, it wasn't six months ago that Welsh fans were calling for his resignation, and Howley's too for that matter. Too inconsistent in results and a lucky break finding Warburton doesn't make him a great coach in my opinion. Gustard would be a much better option.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell is a liability at 13 as shown vs Gloucester, he got burnt for speed on a couple of occasions by Trinder and ended up venting his frustrations with a shoulder charge and was lucky not to have a 10 minute sit down. He doesn't have the passing game to play 10 at the highest level and there are ICs in better form (his club mate Barritt for starters). I'd say it would be better for him to continue playing during the 6N so he can build up his experience. If you want another 10 then bring in Clegg, another 12 then bring in Twelvetrees or another 13 bring in Trinder.

I agree with this. Farrell is not versatile enough to be a 13. He's a 10 or a 12, but no more than that. His strengths are his goal kicking and his tackling. Both are in my mind already at international standard. He needs to learn to vary his game more, but he's in good hands at Sarries and with Hodgson along side him.

For 13 I'd have Tuilagi and Joseph with Trinder in reserve. All excellent players and young. No question that they are the best performing players in that position. If Redpath drops Trinder for Tindall then he's daft.

For 12 Barritt should be an absolute shoe-in. There's no 12 coming close to his level at the moment, and he's been consistently good now for several seasons. I see his competition coming from Allen and Twelvetrees, unfortunately both at the same club, but provided that they are rotated well, that shouldn't be a big problem. The other contender is Turner-Hall, but I'd still like to see more from him.

10 is Flood's to lose. Pretty much in a league of his own at the moment. I'd like to see Ryan Lamb considered again, a great playmaker and he looks to have matured this season. No question he's in some form. The third slot is a shoot out between the two Sarries boys. As Sam says, there is possibly some merit in allowing Farrell to continue playing at Sarries. Young players need to be playing to continue learning, so I'd lean towards Hodgson for now.

Agree with that FES, there won't be any rotating of Allen and Twelvetrees though. Allen is out until January having cut his thumb open and hit an artery whilst laying some flooring (the horrible dangers of DIY). As soon as Twelvetrees over comes his ankle knock then he'll be in at 12 until January. Good chance to make his case.

Ryan Lamb is a good shout he seems to have bypassed Myler already and on form is a very skillful fly half. Be interesting to see how much his defence and composure have improved though as they were his major weaknesses. I'd still like to see Clegg called up, a very solid all round game and he keeps a cool head under pressure.

Didn't know that about Allen. Pity, but a great chance for Twelvetrees to play consistently between Flood and Tuilagi and create a compelling combination. His huge kicking game won't harm his cause with the England coaches either.

The Heineken Cup will be a good yardstick of the level these players are currently at.

It will, unfortunatley Manu is out until December with a broken cheek bone. Thankfully he is scheduled to be back before the Clermont games! Twelvetrees does have a cannon of a right boot but it's not always the most accurate, would like to see him show some more deft skills rather than just the booming field long thunderer he uses to clear the line. For instance Flood showed some lovely litte dabs to put the ball into the corner to pressure Sale on Friday and Farrell's cheeky grubber got Sarries only try of the game (contencious though it may have been). More of than invention from him would be good, would like to see his drop kicking skills honed as well as with his range that could be an excellent weapon in knock out rugby.

I would like - EPS Wishlist 1'st and 2nd choice in each position, then 3 extras to fill up the squad.

1.Corbis - Marler (Sherry is still recovering from surgery)

2. Hartley - Grey (Thompson will still probably be there)

3.Cole - Stevens

4.Parling - Attwood

5.Lawes - Robson

6.Croft - Robshaw

7.Fourie - Wood

8.Easter - Waldrom

9.Care - Youngs (Simpson will probably still feature)

10. Flood - Farrell (think Farrell is still a bit of a hothead-cant think of another though - Hodgeson will still be backup)

11. Ashton - Monye

12.Barrit - Flutey

13.Tuilagi - Lowe

14.Sharples - Wade

15.Foden - A.Goode

I've left out Banahan and Armitage.

think Farrell is still a bit of a hothead-cant think of another though

Lamb, Hodgson, Clegg, Myler, Miller (though he's playing FB at the minute), Burns?

Anyone else rate James Short the Sarries winger, can't help feel he's being a bit overlooked as Sarries are rotating their wingers and don't always play with that much width. He is rapid and has good strength in attack and defence. I would be tempted to promote him into the squad over Monye.

Neither Cole nor Stevens showed much promise at the WC and Flutey shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Arguably, Easter is a regressive pick too.

Sam - you are right, I forgot Short, he was motoring last season and isnt too shabby this season - I would have him in ahead of Wade. RE: your 10's selections, I'm a quins supporter and I am concerned every time that Clegg plays, I dont think he is there yet - if he ever will be. All your other 10's have key 10 skills missing, Hodgeson would be a backwards step, Myler is solid but not spectacular, Lamb if he shows some consistency could be an option (? over defence though) and I dont know much about Miller!

There are plenty of players that I would want involved in the Saxons too.

Phibes - Cole was poor I agree, but there were previous good showings to still have him in the squad. Stevens was messed about on the wrong side, as soon as he was shifted over he was much more solid. Other front rows that I didnt mention that I should have would be PDJ, Webber ect.

Do the english think Croft is really up there with the best blindsides of the world? I think he is one of the problems with the balance of your backrow, and is a weakness honestly. Maybe he could be more effective as an athletic 8 or something but he just doesn't seem to come close to the top 6s in the world imo.

Cole for me is still one of our best scrummagers, his only problem is not binding when told to by the ref.

Clegg is good but should only be in the Saxons, Propdavid how about his performance against Munster last season? He's not Evans but is a very well rounded player, just needs more game time.

Lamb has looked very good for Saints, but lets see over xmas how he goes and in the Hcup.

I'd still be playing Farrel as second choice for England. Of all the second choice fly halves none are as good as Flood but Farrell is the closest in all the key areas. He has good enough defence, brilliant kicking and is quick thinking. The England coaching set up should be able to sort his attacking game out, it's what they're there for.

This does highlight that there's a massive gap between Flood Farral

Everyone else.

What's Alex goode done to get homself in there?

And all this negativity about Farrel rushing up in defence and being hot headed, doesn't that sound alot like what was said about another young talented centre now first choice in the England team?

He was also known to lead with his shoulder, just ask Ashton...

Rory_Gallagher: Croft plays a far more open style compared to the classic 6, but his skill set and pace have him as a really top class player. That said I think he's a bit of a luxury. For me, the England back row is not balanced. Classically this would be taken to mean that we don't have a hard yards 8 and a real live wire 7; this is true but I'm not sure the players exist in England at this time who would fulfil those roles at international level. Better perhaps to shape a new back row, perhaps more akin to France rather than the SH ideal.

PS Regarding the original post I wouldn't have Mike Brown anywhere near an England squad. He's a very effective club player but not fast enough to be a good international FB.

Yappy - that is true, the Munster game was a solid performance for Clegg, but it wasnt spectacular.

Alex Goode! Well, he is there for lack of better players - I just feel that Armitage is getting to be a bit of a liability, I would like other options. Abendanon seems to permanently feature for Saxons, Brown has been good but I still dont think he is international quality.

I suppose Goode won the Jeff with Sarries!

To those that slate Flutey, do you not think that england would have benefited from a more creative center in the WC and shif Tuilagi out to 13. I reckon that would have been a great combo.

Farrell wouldn't be my first choice FH, and I don't think he will be in future, but I like him as back up. I feel he could play an important role as a controlling 10 in a tight game or to close a match out.

I hope that Burns & Ford develop on their promise and become serious contenders as first choice FHs over the next couple of years. Flood is a very good player and definitely the best we've got at the moment, but I have serious doubts that he is good enough to win us the WC.

Clegg is still only 21 and needs more top level game time to hone his decision-making; at the moment, he tries to run the ball a little too often - he isn't elusive enough to create something from nothing, and needs to learn which gaps he can exploit and which to leave.

But in other respects, he ticks all the boxes. Distribution, place kicking, defence all present and correct, plus he's got a cool head. Seems to kick better when under pressure and coped with second half of the Munster game better than O'Gara.

He might not make the step up, but given years and game time I would expect him to be at least a solid bench option. It may well be a questions of who matures faster out of him, Burns and Farrell - though one of the Quins coaches reckons that Farrell will ultimately be better at 12.

Don't know where this nonsense about Brown being too slow comes from. You only have to look at his cover tackling to see that he has the raw speed, and I think he clocks as one of the fastest two or three in the Quins squad. The issue at International level is that he's a very direct runner and works best coming into the line or taking the offload. England's style is geared around having more of a counter-attacking, broken field runner at FB. He doesn't fit that style, but he's not slow.

SneakySideStep wrote:Rory_Gallagher: Croft plays a far more open style compared to the classic 6, but his skill set and pace have him as a really top class player. That said I think he's a bit of a luxury. For me, the England back row is not balanced. Classically this would be taken to mean that we don't have a hard yards 8 and a real live wire 7; this is true but I'm not sure the players exist in England at this time who would fulfil those roles at international level. Better perhaps to shape a new back row, perhaps more akin to France rather than the SH ideal.

PS Regarding the original post I wouldn't have Mike Brown anywhere near an England squad. He's a very effective club player but not fast enough to be a good international FB.

I think you have a hard yards 8 in the form of Crane. I know he is injured now, but I would play Easter for now and have Crane replace him when he returns. He is like a younger, more athletic version of Easter. There are a few options at 7 for England and it will just depend on who puts their hand up for the position in the next few years. At 6, you really should be starting Robshaw.

Neither Cole nor Stevens showed much promise at the WC

Cole gave England vital go forward in the scrum in every game bar the first 50 mins against Scotland. Possibley because Euan Murray was decimating Stevens on the other side. As soon as Stevens went off the English scrum started going forward. England need to try and get Cole running with the ball more as that is the weakness in his game but as shown against Gloucester in the LV he is capable of running some lovely lines when not required to protect every ruck.

I'd still be playing Farrel as second choice for England

No and the reason being is that he doesn't play attacking rugby. Sarries early season form with Farrell at ten showed almost no creative intent. I'd rather have Hodgson cover from the bench until someone else steps up. Farrell is a great goal kicker and has good variety in his kicking from hand but take away the Sarries kick chase his kicking game just isn't as good, see the JWC as an example. He is the second choice 10 at his club for a good reason.

Flood is a very good player and definitely the best we've got at the moment, but I have serious doubts that he is good enough to win us the WC..

He doesn't often come out with a bad game (Alred interupted kicking style aside) but I do sometimes doubt his top class credentials. First half vs Sale being a prime example of this; playing too much in his own half, trying to force chances and missing touch with a penalty. Fast forward to the second half and then I see a 10 that could do the job in a final; clever kicks keeping Sale in their own half, simple moves keeping the team moving and then utilising all the players in his backline tear the opposition defence open with a variety of moves.

Having read this thread I haven't read any suggestions other than the employment of graham henry that make me think England will become a strong international rugby team in the near future.

There are some talented but not exceptional young players, there is also a large amount of average players and there is a huge lack of strength in depth in all positions considering the national team has ten good professional clubs to choose from. Most of the top nations have five.

The rfu need to reaffirm itself as the driving force behind English rugby, they need to instill a focus and a system where the clubs serve the national effort. There are far too many organisations controlling the players that have far too much persuasion over the RFU.

English rugby needs a massive shake up. The same is being said in France. Too much power at the clubs, not enough focus on the national team.

The next twelve months of English senior rugby could see an out and out civil war. The prl and other players associations are undermining the rfu by public ally humiliating them, with the apologies to the IRB for England's candour in NZ, the rejection of Fran Cottens enquiries and launching their own investigations. It is all going wrong.

The rfu need to firmly control English rugby, the clubs need to respect the rfu and there has to be a conserted effort to reorganise English rugby from the top down.

As I said the idea of graham Henry running the show is quite an exciting and daunting prospect as a welsh fan. But with the current mess that the rfu are in, the lack of control they have over the english game and the petulance of organisations like the PRL I can't see Henry wanting to go anywhere near English rugby.

The prl and other players associations are undermining the rfu by public ally humiliating them

I think the RFU are humiliating themselves. It isn't the PRL or the players associations that are full of infighting, back stabbing and useless bureaucracy. The RFU currently recieve for respect because at present the head of the organisation is holding two positions and holding them against the wishes of the clubs (not just the professional ones but the amatuer ones as well). The RFU is currently a joke.

Oh and good luck for presuading the clubs to serve national team first and themselves second. The RFU missed the boat on that one at the start of the professional game and now these clubs are businesses that do not need the RFU and the national team stealing their most valuable assets so regularly. What is in it for the clubs? Bring through some good English players and then have them stolen for a third of the season, better to have foreigners who won't be called up and are available throughout.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

Oh and good luck for presuading the clubs to serve national team first and themselves second. The RFU missed the boat on that one at the start of the professional game and now these clubs are businesses that do not need the RFU and the national team stealing their most valuable assets so regularly. What is in it for the clubs? Bring through some good English players and then have them stolen for a third of the season, better to have foreigners who won't be called up and are available throughout.

If the rfu do not run the game then who will? The prl?

The success of the national team fuels the fires of rugby union for the less avid fans. The target audience the clubs wish to attract to increase their faithful.

If English rugby constantly concedes to the will of club owners then there is little future in English rugby at international level.

The agreement between the PRL and the RFU was a big concession by the clubs allowing the RFU a 4th AI, extra time with the squad before IRB international windows plus the required rest periods of players. On that basis the RFU has now more access to the players than they did in 2003 when England won the RWC. The fact they cannot organise a pi$$ up in a brewery is entirely down to their own incompetencies.

This idea that Brown is some sort of barge is pretty false. He was never as slow as people claimed and over the last couple of years he's been working with a number of athletics and sprint coaches, which has made a marked improvement.

I think he'd do a pretty good job as back up to Foden, he's certainly been excellent for the Saxons and last season he was a stand out performer in the AP (2nd highest clean breaks, 3rd highest try assists, 3rd highest metres gained, 4th highest defenders beaten).

Sam the current situation doesn't work and the rfu is a spineless mess of an organisation.

But the prl should be looking to reform the rfu not kick it when it's down.

I can't see what can be achieved positively at any level of English rugby, particularly at international level, if the rfu is not strong and assertive.

Clubs financial interests will never help make a strong England international team they will only make club rugby richer and more powerful, likely to mean more foreign neq players and less work on young English players at the academies.

I agree with point 1, point 2 would never be allowed by the blazer brigade that hold power in the RFU boardroom and it shouldn't. The PRL is an effective body for representing the interest of the top tier of English rugby it is not equipped nor is it meant to represent English rugby as a whole and therefore should not be allowed to reform the RFU.

Agree with point 3 but point 4 is down to the clubs having very little incentives to promote English players. The PRL will not budge on allowing EPS payments or player call ups to be reflected in the wage cap, the smaller teams band together and veto any such idea on the basis that the number of callups from their squad will be small and the bigger clubs will suffer allowing potential for upsets. The bigger clubs cannot force through the ruling meaning that they will turn towards foreign players to suppliment the English contingent as they don't want to miss out on European rugby. Add to that the RFU being notoriously tight with their money and the clubs regularly have to fight to get anything out of them and you have what we've got now.

As it is nothing will change whilst Thomas remains in charge and whilst the RFU refuse to acknowledge any reports that aren't written by board room allies. The Cotton and Andrew reports are farcical and there are already rumours that some players are refusing to go on record and will only speak to the disciplinary investigation.

"The England coaching set up should be able to sort his attacking game out"

The problem is that going into the England squad seems to be hampering player development....and some players have come back from the WC looking way off the pace....

I think that says ALOT!!!

Actually Geordie the Tigers players have come back and shown the form and skills that they were ridiculed for not showing at the RWC. Cole hit a great line off of Flood for his try against Glaws, Flood showed excellent variance in his game both passing and kicking and Croft ruled the lineout, made some great breaks and went back to fulfilling the sweeper job in the Tigers defence. One has to wonder why they weren't doing these things for England? Better opposition or rigid coaching strategies?

Well i think that says it all Sam doesnt it......

formerly known as Sam wrote:Add to that the RFU being notoriously tight with their money and the clubs regularly have to fight to get anything out of them and you have what we've got now.

But what we have now is more young, talented EQed players getting decent game time than at any point since the game went preofessional. Look at the centres:

Banahan, Allen, Twelvetrees, Barritt, JTH, Farrell, Tuilagi, Trinder, JJ, Lowe, Daly, May and Addison

13 young centres. Barritt and Allen are 25, Banahan 24, JTH 23, the rest 22 and under. Cockerill may have vented some frustration but the club game needs a successful RFU (and probably a successful England side).

The RFU and PRL need to work together for mutual success neither will achieve it's maximum potential whilst the other is failing. I never laid all the blame at the RFUs door but the continual us and them attitude adopted by the RFU certainly doesn't help matters. The PRL suffers the problems most often found in umbrella organisations, not everyones aims are the same so conflicts arise pretty much continually.

But what we have now is more young, talented EQed players getting decent game time than at any point since the game went preofessional

You got figures to support that?

Easy to pick the area we seem to have an influx of young talent in. Things aren't so rosy when you look at English 10s getting regular exposure in the AP ditto young English tightheads.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

But what we have now is more young, talented EQed players getting decent game time than at any point since the game went preofessional

You got figures to support that?

Easy to pick the area we seem to have an influx of young talent in. Things aren't so rosy when you look at English 10s getting regular exposure in the AP ditto young English tightheads.

Even just reading the press headlines, the signings, the players that attract the excitement are predominately NEQ. Compare that to the start of the season in Wales wher talk has been of the fantastic skills of Steffan jones, Matthew Morgan etc etc...!

The needs to be a priority on youth talent, but there also has to be an interest.

I know, I was just arguing the point that there is more EQ players playing regularly now than at any point during the professional era. I don't think there is and so asked if he had seen a report I had missed and pointed out that using the list of young English centres getting game time isn't valid proof of his point because in other positions there is far less EQ representation.

Squads will always be about balance there will always be a need to promote youth but at the same time to make sure the experienced pros are retained and definitley make sure there is a star name or two to make sure heads are turned whether foreign or not.

On the point of coaches, do we think that Defence, Attack, Forwards is really the best split?

With coaches split that way, do the forwards actually work with the backs and the attack coach when working on the breakdown?
I'm very concerned about any coaching structure that tries to split the forwards from the backs in both attack and defence.
All 15 players these days should be used in both attack and defence.

A forwards coach should specialise in scrummaging and lineouts.
I would normally therefore want a tight 5 forward to coach scrummaging... back row forwards don't really know a lot about scrummaging... however I admit that they are often better as lineout technicians.



R4England.
You say that you want England to be stricter on residency, but then confirm that you're happy for grandparents to allow players to play.

Does that mean that you're happier with Waldroms potential inclusion that some of the other players?

maestegmafia wrote:Even just reading the press headlines, the signings, the players that attract the excitement are predominately NWQ. Compare that to the start of the season in Wales wher talk has been of the fantastic skills of Steffan jones, Matthew Morgan etc etc...!

The needs to be a priority on youth talent, but there also has to be an interest.

I presume you mean NEQ?

I don't know what press you are reading, but that isn't the case. The names causing excitement in the English media covering games have been those progressing from the U20s like Joseph, Wade, Ford, Farrell and young players like Wallace, Trinder, May, Homer, Smith.

The only big foreign signings this season I can think of are Donald for Bath and Smit for Saracens (questionable how much he'll actually be playing).