What happens if Gatland takes the Lions job?

Does he have a sabbatical from Wales or do we start looking for a new coach/

Sure I read something he has clause for 6 months in his contract but haven't the Lions already said they want the next manager available for a 12 month.

They won't be namimg the coach until afetr 6 Nations anyway poss even summer tours so lot of rugby to play yet.

He has a sabtical written into his contract, however the Lions have said they want a coach for the whole year. he'd be a dick to take the job and walk out on Wales ( plus lose a load of money) and I dont think the WRU could allow him a full year off. He could just wait another 4 years for his chance after a years holiday.

Why would Gatland Get the Lions Job any way?

Martin Johnson to coach the Lions?

majesticimperialman wrote:Why would Gatland Get the Lions Job any way?

Because from what I've seen he's basically been the poster boy for it. Though that's probably more down to his dashing good looks than his coaching ability.

I was rather hoping Rob Andrew would take it.

Perhaps Graham Henry should

I think Gats probably has a clause in, and for those mooting Johnson and questioning why Gats should get it, go see your doctor.

Henry might be an option but he had his chance....if Gatts doesn't do it now he will be wanting to go home in 2017 and do it. I think Kirwan or Mallett would be interesting but i would also be happy if Geech got it, he is the Lions coach of the modern era

Re: What happens if Gatland takes the Lions job?
by Gatts Today at 8:11 pm

.I think Gats probably has a clause in, and for those mooting Johnson and questioning why Gats should get it, go see your doctor.

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Surely for a Lions coach you would want the best coach avalible. Are you saying that Gatland is the best coach avalible?..Did Wales win the RWC? No they did not.


I too think that Mallet/Kirwin might be interested, But just because Gatland has been given another 4 year contract with Wales, does not make him the best coach avalible.

I wouldn't have any of the four "at-the-time" home nations coaches in the Lions set up, conflicting interests and what not. I wouldn't pick Johnson either, but I wouldn't rule him out for the future after a bit more experience.

maj, think you missed his point as per.

Morgannwg wrote:maj, think you missed his point as per.

So please explain what the point is.

Personally I want whoever coaches the Lions to understand teh ethos of the thing. As Geech's assistant coach last time round there is a good chance that Gatland meets this criteria.

My main concern is that as the coach with responsibility for the forwards he felt that Lee Mears was a good choice to play in that first test.

majesticimperialman wrote: Re: What happens if Gatland takes the Lions job?
by Gatts Today at 8:11 pm

.I think Gats probably has a clause in, and for those mooting Johnson and questioning why Gats should get it, go see your doctor.

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Surely for a Lions coach you would want the best coach avalible. Are you saying that Gatland is the best coach avalible?..Did Wales win the RWC? No they did not.


I too think that Mallet/Kirwin might be interested, But just because Gatland has been given another 4 year contract with Wales, does not make him the best coach avalible.

Best is arbitrary and suggesting he isn't the best because he didn't win RWC is plainly bonkers

He is a standout amongst the home nations, everyone who knows jack about rugby would accept that irrespective of his loyalties, this guy is after all a kiwi. He is a country mile ahead of Johnson, Robinson and Kidney. On reflection whilst i believe they would make a fist of it, Mallet does not ring true to me because i do think that in some way the Lions coach shoudl reflect the make up of the team and have a strong connection to a home union. I htink an Edwrads-Gatland combo would be awesome. That way if they won everyone could say it must mean that the other home union players are 'better' than the welsh!
I think Robinson will go for it strongly as may Henry who i think has no claim on it whatsoever.

I used to think Johnson should do it after he led England to two wins over Australia. But the World Cup shambles has turned me off that idea. I'd be all for Kidney getting it, but only because that would mean Ireland would be rid of him.

I actually agree that Gatland is probably the best head coach of the home nations. His record of beating SANZAR teams is actually worse than Kidney, Johnson or Robinson though.

What about a club coach?

The SANZAR issue is obviously significant but I still think he is the best option however yes a club coach...perhaps Mallinder or Cockerill?

Gatlands clause is five months leave over the four year period so that he can spend time at home with his family. I dont think his WRU contract would let him take extra time off to be head coach of the lions.

Club coach would be interesting...

Nigel Davies? - Especially if the Scarlets keep improving

Its not going to be a club coach, that would be like putting martin johnson straight into the england job.

Nigel Davies following in the footsteps of the great Carwyn James.

Personally I thought Declan Kidney was going to get a shot, but with Andy Irvine as manager maybe he will favour McGeechan again.

Seriously why Nigel Davies? He hasn't won anything! Why do some Welsh fans see him as some sort of deity?

I can't understand fans' infatuation with Conor O shea and Jim Mallinder either when neither have won major silverware.

A potential but controversial name could be Dean Richards.

Other potential candidates are Eddie Jones (know your enemy), Brendan Venter, Mark Mccall and Graham Henry.

I would really like to see Eddie Jones In there somewhere. He helped jake white out in the 2007 RWC.

Joe Schmit would be a good call as head Coach. With Eddie jones helping out !

'He is a standout amongst the home nations, everyone who knows jack about rugby would accept that irrespective of his loyalties, this guy is after all a kiwi. He is a country mile ahead of Johnson, Robinson and Kidney.'

Who says he is a stand out? Your judgement has been deeply coloured by Wales WC performance, which was down to their victory in one match. If that is the case then what happens if Ireland get revenge in Dublin?

The Lions need a coach who can actually beat the Wallabies. Gatland has had two stabs it at with a team that are supposed to be the best of the home nations, at least according to the Welsh. How then, is he going to conjure up a series victory against them with his choice of players from four countries?

You would probably have the Lions squad made up of mainly Welsh players as well. There is a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.

It should be a home-grown coach with a track record and that is Kidney.

mankiaow wrote:'He is a standout amongst the home nations, everyone who knows jack about rugby would accept that irrespective of his loyalties, this guy is after all a kiwi. He is a country mile ahead of Johnson, Robinson and Kidney.'

Who says he is a stand out? Your judgement has been deeply coloured by Wales WC performance, which was down to their victory in one match. If that is the case then what happens if Ireland get revenge in Dublin?

The Lions need a coach who can actually beat the Wallabies. Gatland has had two stabs it at with a team that are supposed to be the best of the home nations, at least according to the Welsh. How then, is he going to conjure up a series victory against them with his choice of players from four countries?

You would probably have the Lions squad made up of mainly Welsh players as well. There is a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.

It should be a home-grown coach with a track record and that is Kidney.

I dont think Gatland will be allowed to be head coach, he may assist like last time.

But your argument has one floor, Wales will play the Ozzies in a three test series this summer, which will be five consecutive games against Wales for the Ozzies before they meet their next opponents.

Gatland will have far more experience of a test series against them than any other coach discussed above.

My favourite for the job would be Joe Schmidt

Feckless Rogue wrote:I used to think Johnson should do it after he led England to two wins over Australia. But the World Cup shambles has turned me off that idea. I'd be all for Kidney getting it, but only because that would mean Ireland would be rid of him.

+ 1

It will likely be Gatland however he has shown on numerous occaisions that he can't put a gameplan together to beat Australia.

I think Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good shout.

'Gatland will have far more experience of a test series against them than any other coach discussed above.

My favourite for the job would be Joe Schmidt'



If that's the case then the reverse is also true. The fact that the Aussies will have plenty of experience of Gatland's tactics may well count against him.

If Schmidt is a favourite does that mean, as a Leinster fan, I can start a thread asking 'What happens if Schmidt takes the Lions job'?

Or would that sound a bit presumptious?

Gatts wrote:The SANZAR issue is obviously significant but I still think he is the best option however yes a club coach...perhaps Mallinder or Cockerill?

I wouldn't say no to either of them but just can't see Tigers or Saints releasing them for that kind of time.

The Lions gig may well be on Cockers wish list for future achievements but I seriously don't see him accepting or applying for the role. Cockerill is relatively new to coaching and got the job at Welford road because he did a good job as caretaker. Before that he was one of the forwards coachs and had no experiance of being head coach. He knows he has limitations & gaps in his skill base which is why he wants to consult with Graham Henry to fill in the blanks so to speak.

mankiaow wrote:'He is a standout amongst the home nations, everyone who knows jack about rugby would accept that irrespective of his loyalties, this guy is after all a kiwi. He is a country mile ahead of Johnson, Robinson and Kidney.'

Who says he is a stand out? Your judgement has been deeply coloured by Wales WC performance, which was down to their victory in one match. If that is the case then what happens if Ireland get revenge in Dublin?

The Lions need a coach who can actually beat the Wallabies. Gatland has had two stabs it at with a team that are supposed to be the best of the home nations, at least according to the Welsh. How then, is he going to conjure up a series victory against them with his choice of players from four countries?

You would probably have the Lions squad made up of mainly Welsh players as well. There is a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.

It should be a home-grown coach with a track record and that is Kidney.

To get revenge in Dublin I think you need to make around 8-10 changes to the team that last played Wales.

And did you know that Gatland HAS coached Wales to beating the Wallabies?

Kidney isn't the man. Neither is Gatland, although that fact he has already experienced coaching the Lions could swing it slightly in his favour.

I wouldn't want Kidney as Lions coach. Not sure the Brits would get him. And his record for Ireland since the unbeaten season of 2009 is quite bad, with about 3 good performances in two years. His game plan tends to be simple. Which sometimes can be devastating but usually can be seen a mile off and stopped. And his use of the bench is often poor. He's proved himself many times to be very good at coaching a team to play the Munster style of tight, defensive, strangling rugby. He seems incapable of producing an attacking brand of rugby, which I think the Lions will have the firepower to play.

With regard to playing SANZAR teams, off the top of my head in the last 4 years.

Johnsons England have beaten Australia twice, one home and one away victory
Robinsons Scotland have beaten Australia and South Africa, both at home
Kidneys Ireland have beaten South Africa at home. Drawn with Australia at home and beaten Australia in the World Cup.
Galtlands Wales beat Australia at home in 2008

Also aren't Ireland planning on a tour of Oz in 2013? or is it just the Lions that are playing them that year.

I think the point of this thread was more what happens to Wales if Gats coaches the Lions (ie do we get rid and get a new coach, and who) rather than 'should Gats be the next Lions coach'

But seeing as the thread is going that way - for my tupence worth, there's too much rugby to be played between now and then, Gats is only a candidate because of a good WC, if he has a poor 6N then people will be calling for his head - remember Johnson was said to be the best home nations coach 6 months ago after winning the 6N, and where is he now? Kidney had a really good start to his irish career but now fans aren't happy.

But for me Gats needs to start getting the team to win the big games (and he is close) and needs to so he can change games when his tactics aren't working

Gatland will be the man if he gets a couple of wins out of the three remianing fixtures v Aus in 2012. Its a job interview series, simple as that.

Suggesting his cadidacy is based on RWC alone, which in turn is based on one win v Ireland is deluded. Wales showed the usual signs of frailty but they also showed what they can achieve with time, preparation tempo and intensity. If Gatland had the same opportunity to prep a Lions side i expect we would win v Aus

Gatts wrote:Gatland will be the man if he gets a couple of wins out of the three remianing fixtures v Aus in 2012. Its a job interview series, simple as that.

Suggesting his cadidacy is based on RWC alone, which in turn is based on one win v Ireland is deluded. Wales showed the usual signs of frailty but they also showed what they can achieve with time, preparation tempo and intensity. If Gatland had the same opportunity to prep a Lions side i expect we would win v Aus

Good points. How is he gonna leave us for 12 months though?

well i don't think that would be necessary, I think he would leave us from after the 6 Nations but what better way of selecting a Lions side is there than the 6 Nations, there is no summer tours in Lions years are there? If so Edwards would be given that i take it?

If I remember the tours in Lions years are usually to N America or Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and the rest of the island nations. and they take a development side - didn't McBryde coach the one 3 years ago?

robbo277 wrote:I wouldn't have any of the four "at-the-time" home nations coaches in the Lions set up, conflicting interests and what not. I wouldn't pick Johnson either, but I wouldn't rule him out for the future after a bit more experience.

Alot more experience. Perhaps a decade in coaching. The Lions is not the place for a novice.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:If I remember the tours in Lions years are usually to N America or Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and the rest of the island nations. and they take a development side - didn't McBryde coach the one 3 years ago?

Gatland might like to take the 2017 tour to NZ though as I am sure he will leave Wales late 2015

7 years in charge....not a bad stint

I have a feeling Geech will do it again. Which I'm not delighted about.

Some people might see this as heresy. I know his commitment and passion for the Lions is unquestionable and means he's well loved. But I think Geech made some major selection blunders on the last one. And didn't react quickly enough to things going wrong on the pitch. And he's not doing brilliantly at his club either.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I have a feeling Geech will do it again. Which I'm not delighted about.

Some people might see this as heresy. I know his commitment and passion for the Lions is unquestionable and means he's well loved. But I think Geech made some major selection blunders on the last one. And didn't react quickly enough to things going wrong on the pitch. And he's not doing brilliantly at his club either.

yes much as i would like to see him do it i don't think he should even though he seems to have done so well at it.

'To get revenge in Dublin I think you need to make around 8-10 changes to the team that last played Wales.'

From that comment I take it that a victory for the mighty Welsh in Dublin is assured and you just have to turn up and squash 'the little green men'.

There's nothing like a bit of over-confidence!

I'm looking forward to it already.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I wouldn't want Kidney as Lions coach. Not sure the Brits would get him. And his record for Ireland since the unbeaten season of 2009 is quite bad, with about 3 good performances in two years. His game plan tends to be simple. Which sometimes can be devastating but usually can be seen a mile off and stopped. And his use of the bench is often poor. He's proved himself many times to be very good at coaching a team to play the Munster style of tight, defensive, strangling rugby. He seems incapable of producing an attacking brand of rugby, which I think the Lions will have the firepower to play.

With regard to playing SANZAR teams, off the top of my head in the last 4 years.

Johnsons England have beaten Australia twice, one home and one away victory
Robinsons Scotland have beaten Australia and South Africa, both at home
Kidneys Ireland have beaten South Africa at home. Drawn with Australia at home and beaten Australia in the World Cup.
Galtlands Wales beat Australia at home in 2008

The only (west) Brits who don't rate Kidney are in the Pale.

Only an ediot would have expected much from a team with the injuries that Ireland have had over the last 2 years - BOD semi injured and POC missing most of it, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls, Bowe, O'Brien, D. Ryan, Horan, Heaslip, O'Leary, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan to start with. FFS, he had to get call up Ruddock from the U20 RWC because of injuries (and Ruddock hasn't got a sniff since then).

Sin é wrote:
The only (west) Brits who don't rate Kidney are in the Pale.

Only an ediot would have expected much from a team with the injuries that Ireland have had over the last 2 years - BOD semi injured and POC missing most of it, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls, Bowe, O'Brien, D. Ryan, Horan, Heaslip, O'Leary, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan to start with. FFS, he had to get call up Ruddock from the U20 RWC because of injuries (and Ruddock hasn't got a sniff since then).

...and sure we're only a small country now....we wouldn't really be expecting to beat other teams now.....

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The only (west) Brits who don't rate Kidney are in the Pale.

Only an ediot would have expected much from a team with the injuries that Ireland have had over the last 2 years - BOD semi injured and POC missing most of it, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls, Bowe, O'Brien, D. Ryan, Horan, Heaslip, O'Leary, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan to start with. FFS, he had to get call up Ruddock from the U20 RWC because of injuries (and Ruddock hasn't got a sniff since then).

...and sure we're only a small country now....we wouldn't really be expecting to beat other teams now.....

so, you think it doesn't matter who plays - you should win then? That suggests that the loss of Ferris, Payne, Pienaar, Afoa, Best, Wallace will have no bearing on how successsful Ulster have been/not been in recent times. The academy kids should do just as well. And Munster won't feel the loss of Earls, Jones, Howlett, Wally & Flannery as its a big club (big no. of playing staff)!

We did have lots injuries over the last two years. That's fair enough Sin. The summer tour of 2010 was destroyed by injuries. But we've put in abject performances when close to full strength too. Like in the World Cup quarter final. We had almost a full deck to choose from and Kidney's simple game plan was read by Gatland and stopped. He was out thought and his team were outplayed.

2017, could well include a test series in Argentina...

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I wouldn't want Kidney as Lions coach. Not sure the Brits would get him. And his record for Ireland since the unbeaten season of 2009 is quite bad, with about 3 good performances in two years. His game plan tends to be simple. Which sometimes can be devastating but usually can be seen a mile off and stopped. And his use of the bench is often poor. He's proved himself many times to be very good at coaching a team to play the Munster style of tight, defensive, strangling rugby. He seems incapable of producing an attacking brand of rugby, which I think the Lions will have the firepower to play.

With regard to playing SANZAR teams, off the top of my head in the last 4 years.

Johnsons England have beaten Australia twice, one home and one away victory
Robinsons Scotland have beaten Australia and South Africa, both at home
Kidneys Ireland have beaten South Africa at home. Drawn with Australia at home and beaten Australia in the World Cup.
Galtlands Wales beat Australia at home in 2008

The only (west) Brits who don't rate Kidney are in the Pale.

Only an ediot would have expected much from a team with the injuries that Ireland have had over the last 2 years - BOD semi injured and POC missing most of it, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls, Bowe, O'Brien, D. Ryan, Horan, Heaslip, O'Leary, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan to start with. FFS, he had to get call up Ruddock from the U20 RWC because of injuries (and Ruddock hasn't got a sniff since then).

Well lets agree then that England were infact massive over acheivers and performed brilliantly through 2007 and 2008 then shall we?

No , they were rubbish. The injuries didnt help, but they were still rubbish.

Its a perfectly valid excuse for Tigers not being top of the Jeff though of course


Aside from a couple of games Ireland have been pretty abysmal since the grand slam, no excuses its just a fact. If Jounsons gonna take the flack for Englands WC performances the Kidney has to take some of the heat for Ireland being that bad or worse for the majority of the last two years. All of these managers have got some quality players and a fair bit of depth to pickj from ( well not Robinson) and only Gatland has managed to piut out a a team that looks genuinly good in the last year, but he cant actually get them to win a significant number of games against good opposition.

If it had to be one of them, Id take Gatland.

Feckless Rogue wrote:We did have lots injuries over the last two years. That's fair enough Sin. The summer tour of 2010 was destroyed by injuries. But we've put in abject performances when close to full strength too. Like in the World Cup quarter final. We had almost a full deck to choose from and Kidney's simple game plan was read by Gatland and stopped. He was out thought and his team were outplayed.

It could also be a very good performance from Wales and there isn't much Kidney could do to stop Warburton/Lydiate getting to the legs of Ferris / O'Brien or indeed Roberts running straight through over our centres. Perhaps David Wallace could have made a difference - he isn't taken down that easily.

So, its down to one poor result, then? Robbie Deans (with much better resources) was out thought and outplayed by Kidney - does that mean Deans is a poor coach now?

I take your point. One bad game doesn't make a bad head coach. Anyway I'm not saying he's terrible. I just think he was in his element under the old tackle interpretations which favoured tight defensive rugby. Ireland haven't evolved into a good attacking side, which was their stated intention.

Some defeats are forgivable and understandable, like the injury ridden summer tour. But some aren't. Like the defeat at home to Scotland with a triple crown at stake. And the Wales game. Yeah they played a great game. But they're not the All Blacks. They lost all their games to other tier 1 sides. But we didn't adapt to them and they brushed us aside.

I'm still willing to give Kidney the benefit of the doubt. The warm-ups were treated as just that. I know it sounds overly sympathetic to him but I am willing to accept that there was an element of experimentation in the 6N. The group games in the WC were encouraging and it fell flat against a well coached Welsh side. There was an upward curve in competitive matches up to the QF, if you include the English game.

So now there is no room for excuses. We know we have the players, he's had long enough at this stage. This 6N is crucial. If, as you say Feckless, he is a two trick pony(as opposed to EOS, who only had one), then it's time for him to step aside. Outside of him, there is no NH coach that has the ability to get the most out of International NH sides. So you have to look at Schmidt or someone like Cheika. If either are interested.

I don't think Kidney should be sacked. I just said I don't think he'd be an ideal Lions coach. I'm willing to give him two more years for Ireland, no problem. For the future let's see how Schmidt goes over the next while. Leinster look like a very well coached team alright, but they do have the best squad in Europe along with Toulouse. And he hasn't won as many Heineken Cups as Kidney yet.

I'd also keep an eye on Conor O'Shea's progress at Quins. Looking good too. And there might be a proven international coach available whenever Kidney steps aside.

I'm always criticizing Kidney. But I'm a very harsh critic of coaches. I wrote an article on old 606 on whether Schmidt was the right man for Leinster, 5 games into his tenure. And I'm the 1st to hail a coaches genius when things go well. I'm a bit bi-polar like that. Or is it fickle? Anyway I don't hate Kidney. Just disappointed with the failure to take our best chance of a World Cup semi.