Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

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USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Just a pity Healy is out.

He's on the bench

The only NIQ player we need to start is Nacewa. That's a good position to be in.

Yeah Mick it is. Happy days or what?! Even then we could 'get by' without him but he is the best outside back we have.

Mickado wrote:The only NIQ player we need to start is Nacewa. That's a good position to be in.

VDM?

Interesting that Strauss gets the nod. He seems to have control of the 2 shirt again. Cronins throwing was a bit shakey last week when he came on.

All eyes will be on McFadden and O'Malley again and with Spence and Cave starting again for Ulster there is a lot to play for for all of these guys. It bodes well for the future.

Bonus point win for Leinster here?

I should have put the emphasis on NEED there.

What i'm saying is our strongest team at the moment is 13 Irish men, Strauss and Nacewa. Cronin could challenge Strauss by the end of the season but if he was starting a HC match it wouldn't weaken us greatly. So the only one who's vital to us is Nacewa.

Mickado wrote:I should have put the emphasis on NEED there.

What i'm saying is our strongest team at the moment is 13 Irish men, Strauss and Nacewa. Cronin could challenge Strauss by the end of the season but if he was starting a HC match it wouldn't weaken us greatly. So the only one who's vital to us is Nacewa.

Oh, Sorry.

With Bod & Shaggy fit, we could field a serious all Irish 23. Strauss qualifies in October.

I think Strauss is just more solid in general, more dependable in general too. you know what you are going to get with Strauss, Cronin could turn up or he could not it can be a bit of a lottery.

Yeah the two pairs of centres are going to firmly be in DK's and the Irish publics eyes this weekend.
I think Barnes has really fallen off a fair bit and can't be considered too strongly anymore for a 6N spot

The plan should be to remove the need for any non world class NIQ players, so we need to get Jack McGrath up to the level of VDM, Hagan up to the level of Nathan White etc.

If we could make those two improvements alone, then by next October all of that starting 23 could be Irish. Add in BOD, Shaggy, Dom Ryan, Conway, D.Kearney, Carr etc. and you’ve got a really good squad. We’re still a little shy at lock though, although I’m hearing good things about Neilus Keogh in the A team, it’s Stephen’s brother AFAIK.

Vdm and white are out of contract at the end of the season. So I'm sure that is the plan. Mark flanagan is toner's 1st cousin.

Mickado wrote:The plan should be to remove the need for any non world class NIQ players, so we need to get Jack McGrath up to the level of VDM, Hagan up to the level of Nathan White etc.

If we could make those two improvements alone, then by next October all of that starting 23 could be Irish. Add in BOD, Shaggy, Dom Ryan, Conway, D.Kearney, Carr etc. and you’ve got a really good squad. We’re still a little shy at lock though, although I’m hearing good things about Neilus Keogh in the A team, it’s Stephen’s brother AFAIK.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Yeah the two pairs of centres are going to firmly be in DK's and the Irish publics eyes this weekend.
I think Barnes has really fallen off a fair bit and can't be considered too strongly anymore for a 6N spot

Yeah Barnes has slipped down the pecking order a bit it seems. He's played well when hes come on though.

I think D'arcy and Earls will be the front runners (backed up by McFadden and Wallace) for the 6N but long term there is a lot to play for, in particular for Spence and O'Malley who are the future of Irish centre play (along with Luke Marshall) I think.

Its good to see McFadden and O'Malley get the nod again.

I just hope Bath continue the spirited effort they showed last week. If they start falling off tackles and coughing the ball up it'll be a long day at the Aviva.

Ireland have some crazy talent in their outside backs right now.. 12 however seems to be lacking somewhat, especially creative 12s (Wallace, Marshall and.. ?). Meanwhile at wing, outside centre and full back we have:

Wing - Bowe, Trimble, Earls, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Gilroy, Kearney (Jr and Sr), Zebo, Barnes, Spence, Carr

Outside Centre - Bowe, Trimble, Earls, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Barnes, O'Malley, Griffin, Spence, Cave

Fullback - Earls, Fitzgerald, Gilroy, Kearney (Jr and Sr), Jones

Note for a lot of the players I have put them in a few positions they are known to play.

That is a crazy amount of talent in our outside backs, and I have possibly missed a few players.

Yeah I really hope Bath make a game of it for a bit, obviously I want Leinster to win though and if Bath start conceeding turnovers or not slowing down ball enough then this backline and backrow are going to cut loose bigtime.

Yeah great amount of talent in the Irish backs at the moment coming though. Fitz can be put at 12 too IMO although that is a stretch!!!!

Didn't no Keogh was such a good prospect haven't heard anything of him, anyone got some more info?????

Also yeah it would seem Earls and Darcy are in pole position, hopefully that will change!

I think a lot of those outside backs should be looking to maybe try playing other positions.. obviously not all of them are going to get a shot for Ireland.

Where would they change to? Scrumhalf or outhalf? How would that work?
Of the list you made very few of them would be able to play outside the outside backs.

I was referring to 12 when I meant playing other positions, as that is where we are seemingly lacking right now.

A lot are young enough to possibly make the transition to 12.

Oh that's a good point actually sorry I misunderstood.

Ehm...yeah there are a few
Spence, Fitz, McFadden, Barnes that's about it slim pickings really.

But are we lacking at 12? As much as at 13? Or is it a case that Darcy in Leinster and Wallace in Ulster (though that can alternate a bit with spence/cave?) coupled with Mafi having the jersey at Munster means we don't see the youth as much coming through here. Personally I think there needs to be a season to a season and a half of transition for our centres. If we line up a replacement for BOD first, then Darcy must be retained to provide experience (and he performance levels are down on his best but still on par, in my view, with his competitors).
If BOD has life left in him, he might come back at 12 to provide that role.

15 is the problem position for me as I'd see Earls and Fitz as wingers (definitely not fullback though they could fill in). I've only seen D Kearney as a wing. Felix Jones is injury prone so once he comes back, i'd worry that another knock 'finds him' (some people are just unfortunate). So you are left with an aging Geordan and R Kearney. Also Hurley and Johne are more wingers in my eyes.

There is a lot more depth at 15, even if our "natural" 15s were out, there are still a good number of options. Jones and Kearney are also both young, so we are okay there for the next while I think.

At 12 there is D'Arcy, McFadden and Wallace as our current options (well, Wallace is injured). So that leaves us with D'Arcy and McFadden really. Only one has had sufficient gametime at 12 but is a shadow of his former self. I haven't really seen enough from McFadden to convince me he is good enough. However when BOD returns I too see him playing 12.

As far as young 12s go, we have Marshall and Hanrahan. Both these guys look great, but it will be a few more years before they get to the standard required of them.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:But are we lacking at 12? As much as at 13?

I hate to drop a bombshell here but 12 and 13 are not different positions...ok they are but not really. We either have centre 3/4's or we don't.

Traditionally the 12 had less time and space but that is less so the case now a days with the defences deeper, they also don't need to be able to kick as much as in the past.

Any center worth their salt should be able to move fairly seemlessly between the two and its about getting the best combination to compliment each other and who fit the game plan.

We're obsessed over here with the numbers and that players can't move positions.

In a way I agree Rodders, and I think the combination between 12 and 13 is the most important thing. However, we need 12s who are playing there week in week out, as there are some differences and different responsibilities. For example, I don't think McFadden is doing a good job at 13 but he is solid at 12.

With that in mind we have one guy who is playing 12 frequently, and that is D'Arcy. That might change if McFadden performs here, but we will have to see.

Thats it Pete, its about the combination. The current trend is a big man at 12 and a smaller, quicker footballing 13 who can create things of 2nd phase. Nonu/Smith, BOD/Roberts are obvious examples...it just depends, its about the combo and the style of play.

Anyways quick question....can you watch this on the TG4 website in NI? I can get TG4 on terrestial but the TV may be commendered tomorrow night

I agree and disagree Rodders, I think the combination is the main point. Without a good combination two talented individuals can be torn apart.

However I disagree re:12 and 13 being the same position.
These are all genaralisations but....

A 12 has to deal with more big ball carriers than a 13
A 13 has to deal with more guys trying to go outside him, lead the drift/blitz
A 12 should have quicker hands and feet
A 13 should be faster over 40m

One of the centres needs to be able to take the ball up into traffic make yards, place ball quickly back and draw in defenders
One of the centres needs to be able to make/threaten outside breaks
One of the centres should be able to kick from hand

Both centres need to be comfortable being the fulcrum in backline moves
Both centres need to be able to run good support lines
Both centres need to be able to offload
Both centres need to be able to distribute the ball to the back3

No they are not the same positions but they are not different either....in a sense that 6 and 7 are different but they are both flankers....a player may be better in one or the other but most should be able to play both.

Its the combination that is the key thing not who where 12 or 13 on their back.

People forget that O'Driscoll used to play 12 and D'arcy 13 for a while.

roddersm wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:But are we lacking at 12? As much as at 13?

I hate to drop a bombshell here but 12 and 13 are not different positions...ok they are but not really. We either have centre 3/4's or we don't.

Traditionally the 12 had less time and space but that is less so the case now a days with the defences deeper, they also don't need to be able to kick as much as in the past.

Any center worth their salt should be able to move fairly seemlessly between the two and its about getting the best combination to compliment each other and who fit the game plan.

We're obsessed over here with the numbers and that players can't move positions.

I see where your coming from. With a defensive hat on, from first phase possessions, the 12 has to cover his space plus be close enough to the 10 (traditionally the most targetted and possibly weakest tackler on a side) to provide assistance. The are also closer to the pack so are more likely to have to bring down running forwards. The current trend for the 12 is also as a big bish-bosh merchant, so your 12 whatever his size and physique has to cope with that.

As the 12 will be 'covering' the 10 channel to an extent, the 13 then has more field to cover in the defensive line. They get more time to see a move develop so are key to controlling the defensive line and getting people organised on a drift/rush set up. As he is slightly further from the pack, he is more likely going to have to tackle the quickest of forwards or backline players so he has to be quicker over the ground and have great balance to cope with steppers/speed merchants.

It is for that reason I'd see McFadden as a solid 12 but not so solid 13. He has top line pace but he doesn't cope well with side-steppers.

After first phase ball occurs, I definitely agree with you that your centres should be interchangable in dealing with positions but that should be down to your forwards defending the fringes/1st channel off a breakdown and so your backs have less of a gainline to defend.

In their pomp, both Darcy and BOD could handle both positions so it wasn't that evident from an Irish point of view. Usually they would alternate between just taking left and right sides of the field or else, if one has made a tackle, the other takes the inside centre position while the tackler drifts across the back of the defensive line acting as a sweeper until he reaches his outside centre defensive position.

roddersm wrote:No they are not the same positions but they are not different either....in a sense that 6 and 7 are different but they are both flankers....a player may be better in one or the other but most should be able to play both.

Its the combination that is the key thing not who where 12 or 13 on their back.

People forget that O'Driscoll used to play 12 and D'arcy 13 for a while.

I disagree.
The thought of having Kevin McLaughlin at 7 is just a big silly. They aren't completely interchangable. A lot of players can do both, but they are not the same position IMO.
They aren't the most specalised of positions but you still need special skills to play them.

thebandwagonsociety wrote: I've only seen D Kearney as a wing.

Take a spin down to Donnybrook at 14:30 on Sunday. Free in with your Season Ticket. He is playing 15 in the B&I cup v London Welsh.

Hi fellas, I picked Bath by 1 on Sport Guru and the feckin thing called me on it!

No word of a lie, the system issued me with a "Friendly Warning" that the rest of the community would consider it a shocking pick!!!!

I mean, I already know that obviously, but I just can't bring myself to pick against my beloved Bath - but to be called on it? By a feckin piece of shoite software?!!

Man, are Bath in trouble

Incidentally, where I come from the words "Friendly Warning" usually follow a feckin good slap, so not only was it humiliating - it was also slightly intimidating.

I only picked 'em by 1, sheesh.

PJHolybloke wrote:Hi fellas, I picked Bath by 1 on Sport Guru and the feckin thing called me on it!

No word of a lie, the system issued me with a "Friendly Warning" that the rest of the community would consider it a shocking pick!!!!

I mean, I already know that obviously, but I just can't bring myself to pick against my beloved Bath - but to be called on it? By a feckin piece of shoite software?!!

Man, are Bath in trouble

Incidentally, where I come from the words "Friendly Warning" usually follow a feckin good slap, so not only was it humiliating - it was also slightly intimidating.

I only picked 'em by 1, sheesh.

Well fair focks to yah. Some things are more important than money. And one of those is your team. Kiwis (for example) make shoite supporters because their team rarely lose, so when they do, their fans sh1t on them.

Leinster were crap (well inconsistant) for long enough to stop most of us getting too far ahead of ourselves.

When Bath were winning the HC in 98, Leinster were seriously shoite. Not saying that Bath are or have ever been shoite, but some day soon the boot will be on the other foot, and Bath will be a team to be feared once again.

(Not sure where that meandering rant came from)

And who knows. It could start with a miracle match in Dublin tomorrow. Bath have a history of beating us at home (and losing to us in the Rec)

PJHolybloke wrote:Hi fellas, I picked Bath by 1 on Sport Guru and the feckin thing called me on it!

No word of a lie, the system issued me with a "Friendly Warning" that the rest of the community would consider it a shocking pick!!!!

I mean, I already know that obviously, but I just can't bring myself to pick against my beloved Bath - but to be called on it? By a feckin piece of shoite software?!!

Man, are Bath in trouble

Incidentally, where I come from the words "Friendly Warning" usually follow a feckin good slap, so not only was it humiliating - it was also slightly intimidating.

I only picked 'em by 1, sheesh.

that's gas,nice post too you have a good way of putting things.I can see you at the screen as the message comes up.First then

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Hi fellas, I picked Bath by 1 on Sport Guru and the feckin thing called me on it!

No word of a lie, the system issued me with a "Friendly Warning" that the rest of the community would consider it a shocking pick!!!!

I mean, I already know that obviously, but I just can't bring myself to pick against my beloved Bath - but to be called on it? By a feckin piece of shoite software?!!

Man, are Bath in trouble

Incidentally, where I come from the words "Friendly Warning" usually follow a feckin good slap, so not only was it humiliating - it was also slightly intimidating.

I only picked 'em by 1, sheesh.

that's gas,nice post too you have a good way of putting things.I can see you at the screen as the message comes up.First then

Laughing about it now though, but I can't remember the last time I felt so humiliated.

Ah sure what does the software know?!

Anyone else feel Bath might get pummelled today? Love to see Bom get a few sweet tries and FMF set some up.

I think it's set up for it alright, after last week. SOB will certainly be out to make a point and, as previously mentioned, the centre combination is exciting. Sexton should rule the roost. If Bath get any sort of ball their backs are handy enough but unless we seriously misfire it could be a good evening.

Wish I could be there.

Looks like if we get good ball (which we should) then we should be able to create some chances and I don't see us butchering chances the way we did last week!

Come on Leinster

Bath are toast.. Leinster by 20+

Great start for Leinster. I fear for Bath today.

Once again Poite doesnt have a clue at the scrum.

What an odd decision that was at the scrum....

Discipline is shocking

Lovely half break from toner leads to a Fitzgerald try while a man down

Toner reminds us that hes not just 6'11 he actually has a rugby brain as well, great stuff.

Anyone else get wood everytime Sexton gets the ball.

....That's what I'm talking about!!!

Err...that looked a bit easy.

leinsterbaby wrote:Anyone else get wood everytime Sexton gets the ball.

only if your ross O'Carroll Kelly. Which it seems you are

Amazing, simply amazing from Leinster

Sonny Bill Toner is Ireland's replacement for BOD.