Wales backline for Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

If Jamie Roberts is injured or not firing on all cylinders then I would like to see Henson return to 12. Against England in August and last night for the Blues he still showed he can play well without any form or run of matches.

The Jamie Roberts crash ball is only effective sometimes and it doesn't free up the backline. Henson's flat passing and offloading can bring the likes of JD2, North & Halfpenny into space and make Wales a threat again.

I believe JD2 is the most potent threat in the backline at the moment and should be the first back on the teamsheet. I would like to see North remain on the wing, but involve himself as much as possible. Halfpenny does a great job at fullback and I would play him there until Stoddart recovers, but he must be more involved as he was great last night.

I would pick:

15. Halfpenny
14. North
13. JD2
12. Henson
11. Cuffbutt
10. Priestland / Hook (depends how well Hook continues to play at Perpignan)
9. Phillips

20. Williams
21. Hook / Priestland
22. Byrne / Roberts

He wasn't better but he certainly wasn't worse.

SO your saying a player who hadn't played 10 consistently for years who throughout the WC missed kicks, ran down blind alleys, had generally poor distribution and demonstrated poor decision making was just as good as Jones who kicked out of hand well, took poor penalties, distributed well and was generally solid if disappointing by his standards?

Granted neither were amazing but Hook was a car crash - which lead to many of his biggest fans (people who previously said we had to have Hook in the team if we wanted to win) to say he should never be considered 10 again. Jones wasn't up to standard as well but he brought some positives to the team unlike Hook.

If that's the way you saw it then fine. But i thought Jones had a shocker. His distribution was poor, he did kick well at times out of hand but he was mostly just smashing it with no direction. He could have won the game with some patience when he could have taken that drop goal but he stupidly took into contact instead knocking it on as a result. And also in at the end when we should have been sucking defenders in and trying to push closer through the forwards he decided to fling it out to the backs were we then lost possession.

Not saying Hook played well but Jones was equally bad in my opinion.

I think patience is the key to what Wales were doing right in the summer and the Autumn, and much of that patience can be attributed to Priestland at ten.

Opportunities eventually open up if you take your and don't rush to get the score. If they don't, the defence inevitably concede a penalty.

dogtooth wrote:i am suprised so many are talking as if Cuthbert is a cert for the squad. the lad's good but surely Brew still has more to offer at the moment.

i feel sorry for hook. he has been d1cked about so much and now he is going to be completely overlooked because gavin will fill in as utility back, bench cover.

I'm a fan of Brew but I think Cuthbert is playing better. The wingers I would like to see taken to the 6 Nations are North, Cuthbert, Brew with Halfpenny and L.Williams being considered as the full backs (or wingers if we are desperate). I do not think Gavin should be included, he needs a couple games at 10 or 12 to try and get his physical edge back.

I have been very happy with Cuthbert and Liam Williams this season, both look very good. Decent size lads, fast and aggressive with the ball in hand.

A season or two back we had very few options on who we selected but these days we have several players putting their hands up and that in itself creates a few headaches for the selectors.
Nice position to be in though.

Its a great position. Someone behind the scenes in the lower age groups is doing a very good job spotting talent and giving them focus and direction. I am sure watching young players taking the fore in the National team over the last year has spurred on more too.

Lets just hope wealthy foreign clubs don't poach all our best talent and prevent them playing for Wales by tying them into contracts that mean they cant make National Squad training sessions.

I think all the exciting youngsters coming through with such a professional attitude shows that regionalisation is working, all the academies are producing lots of youngsters and as you say Cymro we are now developing something close to strength in depth, or the very least options in every position - something we haven't had for a long, long time.
Now we just need to sort out attendances... but they are growing

According to posters on the Leicester v Sale part of this site. Dwayne Peel is (and I quote) "the best scrum half in the Northern Hemisphere"!

With Phillips in France, Knoyle injured, Williams still looking inexperienced and Webb not getting picked for his club, whats his chance of a recall for Wales?

We stand more chance of getting Phillips than peel. Bayonne already said they would let him train with Wales whenever called upon.

The PRL will stop Peel from training with Wales as they have done every year.

you are all beating around the bush...

Wales kickers cost us the RWC...35 points missed off the boot with a total losing margin in the 3 qualifying games of 5 points

That's Hook, Jones, Preistland and halfpenny.

Yet Neil Jenkins has just been nailed on?

oh and those backing henson...at the top level errors are magnified and until he stops making howlers again - which he may after game time - he can't play for Wales on past form. If and when he has a run of good perfs and remains injury free then yes get him back on the bench in place of Hook as supersub and perhaps a starter v Scots/Italians but surely this speculation is just nostalgia, aren't there numerous better options (except hook)

Gatts wrote:you are all beating around the bush...

Wales kickers cost us the RWC...35 points missed off the boot with a total losing margin in the 3 qualifying games of 5 points

That's Hook, Jones, Preistland and halfpenny.

Yet Neil Jenkins has just been nailed on?

The only international goal kicker who had a success rate anywhere near his usual almost perfect record was Yachvilli.

There was less wrong with the kickers than with the balls.

Well if biltong were here - never is when you need him - he could do a 'top kickers stats pre RWC v RWC' and we could see what the facts are. You have a point maes but i still think Steyn for example, slotted the same % as usual. At least we didn't cheat

Fair play gatts

Billtong can be a useful bloke sometimes. I had a look to see if I could find the apparent stats.

Ill PM him to see if he knows.

Seagultaf wrote:According to posters on the Leicester v Sale part of this site. Dwayne Peel is (and I quote) "the best scrum half in the Northern Hemisphere"!

With Phillips in France, Knoyle injured, Williams still looking inexperienced and Webb not getting picked for his club, whats his chance of a recall for Wales?

Load of tosh. The English Premiership is basement level rugby with no world class players.

Any chance of a recall for Peel is slim-none. Phillips and Williams are our now established 9s with Webb and Davies both also playing well and fighting for third spot. Bayonne should release Phillips, they have another good scrum half, an Argentinian I think who would be available for them.

The fact that you call Leicester v Sale basement level of rugby shows that you don't actually watch the Aviva. It was a much higher quality game than any of the Welsh derbies i can assure you.

gowales wrote:The fact that you call Leicester v Sale basement level of rugby shows that you don't actually watch the Aviva. It was a much higher quality game than any of the Welsh derbies i can assure you.

Tigers vs Sale was a good game, wouldn't say it was amazing quality. Though you could blame that on the un-refereed breakdown, poor scrummaging because so many props were injured as much as the skill levels of second string players.

maestegmafia wrote:Having watched the Christmas and new years derby's I think this would be my suggested backline of preference.

Phillips
Priestland
Cuthbert
Roberts
Davies
North
Halfpenny

I would have a bench of

Lloyd Williams
Stephen jones
Liam Williams

I would include Gavin Henson, Scott Williams,Ashley Beck, Rhys Webb and Jason Tovey to the squad for training and injury cover.

mm,

I think that starting back line is pretty much spot on and see no reason to change it from the WC other than Shanes retirement.

I still think a lot will depend on what Gatland decides to do with about Hook, if he picks Hook for bench slot then then he may go for another centre/wing player, if he does go for Jones then like you suggested I hope he goes for a specialiat XV.

Henson will be given as much chances as possible to impress and I have been very impressed with Beck so can see him being in any training squad hoefully along with Tovey.

I always liked Hook as an outside center. But he was given little time there to really prove himself, he was also a little short on pace.

mm,

Lets be honest he has never really been given time anywhere to prove himself, his versatility has been is undoing.

He was given plenty of time , two seasons I think at the Ospreys, prior to Biggar. Game management being the perceived issue. Never nailed it really, though to be fair he always did far more good than bad.

His positives outweighed negatives but after that period he has been moved from pillar to post by Wales and the Os

These things happen. Time will tell. Still a handy option to have lying around for Wales, damn happy he is Welsh and not a competing nations player.

Similar story with Hook and Henso. Both have been magnificent at times, both young enough to do another RWC, Lions tour and plenty of Welsh duties if needed. On the plus side there are plenty of younger talented players fighting for that spot.

Whats the headline, Jamie Roberts is the oldest guy in the backline at 25?

after the derbys, my starting backline would be:

9. Phillips
10. Priestland
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. JD2
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Webb
Tovey/Stephen Jones
Scott Williams/Adam Hughes

Much easier to select players one game at a time than for the whole six nation campaign each game requires a player with a certain style to take on his opposite number..
Would I select Cuthbert against France probably not but maybe he deserves a chance against Italy.

Cymro,

Agree to a point but swapping and changing also causes its own problems, a very good succesful winning team normally has a s ettled looked to itn cam adapt to different game situations and styles with very few changes throughout a campagin.

Bedford I agree that the side needs to be settled but what I meant was that the same backline will not start the match week in week out.
Just for argument sake maybe Gatland would select Priestland to start against France but would select S Jones for the first 60 against Ireland.

Comfort wrote:after the derbys, my starting backline would be:

9. Phillips
10. Priestland
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. JD2
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Webb
Tovey/Stephen Jones
Scott Williams/Adam Hughes

Think thats our fist choice lineup but the reserves are way off. Webb deserves a callup but is third behind Lloyd Williams. He is also getting messed around by the Os where he should be first choice but they cant have Fotauii on a big contract keeping the bench warm. Wellies wont get picked for the squad and Tovey could well be out after friday. He is behind Biggar in Gatts eyes anyway despite Biggar being a numpty. Scott Williams is nailed on for a place but Adam hughes is going to have to wait, He is behind Beck I think at the moment.

Henson at full back for the blues has reminded me of how good he was there as a youngster. It would not suprise me to see him play for Wales there but I think the summer tour is more realistic for him.

I was thinking Henson might be picked at FB as Gats might not want to risk chucking Cuthbert straight into the team for the England match (or Liam Williams for that matter - despite his track record of throwing youngsters in the deep end) - as such he would have a lot more experienced back 3 of Henson, Halfpenny, North - the other option is Hook or Priestland, but seeing as he's out best FH that then means having Stephen Jones in or trusting Biggar against England

Ireland in Dublin is first up I think.

Henson needs a couple more games at fullback before being tried at centre for the blues and then he would need 4+ games there before he is really up to speed at centre. If they keep him at full back for the next 3-4 games at the Blues he is a viable option and honestly is looking very classy at full back for teh Blues.

Priest,

He thought nothing about throwing North in so if he feels Cuthbert is ready I think he will pick him and to be honest I would rather a back 3 of North Halfpenny and Cuthbert as opposed to North Henson and Halfpenny - at the moment anyway lets see Henson have a decent run of games first.

Tycroes,

Early reports are that Tovey will be fit for Friday but I agree that in Gatlands eyes he is behind Biggar.

I think either Hook or Jones will be involved but not both, I can't see Gatland going into the 6 Nations with Priestland, Biggar and Tovey as our 3 choices at No 10, if he selects Hook as a center then he could just select Priestland and Biggar.

Good news about Tovey but the Dragons need to start winning and he needs to start performing before he overhauls Biggar.

I honestly think in the longer term Steffan Jones is a better option than both of them. Im hoping the Ospreys poach him and send biggar off to learn how to pass and run (maybe the 7s) and Morgan somewhere to learn how to tackle.

Tycroes,

I agree that Tovey and Hughes may suffer due to our poor form at the moment.

Steffan Jones has some way to go yet as he showed in his last couple of games, can't see him ousting Tovey for a good while yet other than injury.

yeah thats what I'd like to see, probably not what Gatts would do mind.

I'm a blues fan, but apart from being the son of Bynmoor, I cant see what Lloyds done to get called up, he doesnt look physically ready yet and his passing can be atrocious aswell as sublime.
I dont think Biggar has the nouse for international level, hes limited enough at regional.
I think Hughes would add something to the backline, a genuine outside centre threat in attack, we've been missing that since Shanklin retired. Our outside centre has become more defined to a defensive role, covering for Roberts and linking when its on. See the difference in JD2 playing for region to country, its a positional switch yes but an obvious switch in roles too.

the more likely bench of course being

Lloyds Williams
Biggar
Scott Williams

I think we could be in for a long 6nations if Phillips isnt released and on decent form, we saw his quality in the World Cup.

Comfort,

He has to be released for the IRB timescale its just that extra week that maybe the problem.

If he's not then it will be down to Gatland to decide how rigid he wants to stick to his play in Wales stance.

maestegmafia wrote:He was given plenty of time , two seasons I think at the Ospreys, prior to Biggar. Game management being the perceived issue. Never nailed it really, though to be fair he always did far more good than bad.

How was playing 10 for the Ospreys supposed to prepare him for test rugby? It's irrelevant.

Hook was brilliant when he debuted for Wales at outside half - and was talented enough to produce Man of the Match performances when coming on as sub and/or shifting across from 12 - against top level international opposition.

But almost immediately - he started to get shunted around the backline because he's gifted enough to do a makeshift job anywhere.

It took Stephen Jones seven years to become a world class 10 - yet it seems Hook was expected to achieve the same standards in 7 games.

Water under the bridge now, probably, but the way Hook was handled represents the biggest waste of natural talent of the professional era in Wales.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Priest,

He thought nothing about throwing North in so if he feels Cuthbert is ready I think he will pick him and to be honest I would rather a back 3 of North Halfpenny and Cuthbert as opposed to North Henson and Halfpenny - at the moment anyway lets see Henson have a decent run of games first.

That's true bedford and he thought nothing of throwing in Prydie, Phillips, Halfpenny or Biggar either, I'd definately want to see if Henson can improve his performances and show consistency playing 5/7 games before the 6N, but I put him foward assuming that he does that and because Gats loves him and he'll prob turn into the new Hook (ie he'll be slotted in anywhere he can be regardless).

I do like both Cuthbert and Liam Williams and agree with you that at the current time I'd be much happier seeing Cuthbert in the team than Henson

Nice problem to have eh...!

The Hook debate is fascinating

I agree with Casartelli that his talent was mishandled but i also think he never made a postion his own hence why he got moved around and became suprsub. He often said he just wanted to wear the shirt and perhpas that was his mistake.

Ultimately Gatland is responsible for that but not responsible for his dismal RWC which for me put him in the talented has been with potential to act as a solid sub category along with Henson perhaps if he comes good in the next few games. Both players enormously talented, their potential never fulfilled for different reasons.

Has been???

He is 26 for gods sake...!

You are being ridiculous.

gowales wrote:The fact that you call Leicester v Sale basement level of rugby shows that you don't actually watch the Aviva. It was a much higher quality game than any of the Welsh derbies i can assure you.

Didn't expect to get a welsh person whilst I was fishing there to be honest. I know you're Peels number one fan but you really need to put a cork in it now.

I agree the backline picks itself, but perhaps start with Williams ahead of Phillips. Hook should be left out. Not a great fan of his erratic form, let him get a good season under his belt in the south of France.

I have already spoke of Henson in this article. However should he be making his way back into the team then hopefully at 12 or 13 seeing as Davies/Williams can't pass. Distribution has always been Gavins strong point.

maestegmafia wrote:Has been???

He is 26 for gods sake...!

You are being ridiculous.

why? he has been tried and found out at every pos in the backline and is first choice in none, there are better options everywhere, his kicking cost us at RWC, Gatland's mismanagement, his generalist skills lend support to him being supersub, he doesn't fit with Gatland's style, he is in France etc etc.

If Jamie Roberts isn't fit in time for the Ireland game, I'd like to see a centre pairing of Ashley Beck and Jonathan Davies (or vice versa).

luckless_pedestrian wrote:If Jamie Roberts isn't fit in time for the Ireland game, I'd like to see a centre pairing of Ashley Beck and Jonathan Davies (or vice versa).

The Irish would too.

Who would you prefer to see, Casartelli?

Beck is the form centre at mo in Wales and will definately be in the 6 Nations training squad.

Isn't Roberts supposed to be fit for this weekend or next we at latest anyway?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Who would you prefer to see, Casartelli?

Good question. Don't know. Depends on Roberts' fitness. He's a world class performer again and pretty much irreplaceable.

JD2 is okay - a good runner and good in contact, but has the handling skills of a T-Rex - needs a top-notcher inside him.

Don't think Beck is an international any time soon. Good player but not quite test level in any particular department.