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How much did George Foreman mark 2 hurt boxing??

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compelling and rich
Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake
OasisBFC
AlexHuckerby
Union Cane
horizontalhero
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nissan
Atila
Imperial Ghosty
ONETWOFOREVER
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tcribb
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TRUSSMAN66
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How much did George Foreman mark 2 hurt boxing?? Empty How much did George Foreman mark 2 hurt boxing??

Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:23 pm

I'll hold my hand up and say I was jumping for joy when Foreman knocked out Moorer....However on reflection it was probably the worst thing that's happened to Boxing in the last twenty years..

We had Tubbs and Witherspoon both 6ft 3 and 240 when over-weight (hey they seem slim now) before George came back... and they were absolutely pilloried in the US for embarrassing Boxing with their conditioning...but hey they went 15 at a decent pace!! (on youtube the fight)

Thing is Foreman shouldn't have been Boxing at his age (Since Foreman boxing in your 40's seems to have become more acceptable)....he was basically a punchbag with a huge punch.. and he revelled in his obese condition!!! Who can remember the amount of times he was pictured with a tray of hamburgers???..

Sure he won the title by catching Moorer but let's face it he'd won probably one round and was taking shots as he was against Holy all night!!

Point is...since George won the title it seems to have become acceptable to be a slob and to box way past when you should!!.......

For me looking back Foreman mark 2 is a black mark on the heavyweight division and a bad advert for the game as a whole!!


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : changes)

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Post by Steffan Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:27 pm

Foreman coming back had no good or bad influence on heavyweight boxing in my opinion

We would of had overweight fighters either way

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:29 pm

So Foreman didn't make certain things more "acceptable".....

Don't really expect anything substantial from you Steffy..

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Post by Steffan Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:31 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So Foreman didn't make certain things more "acceptable".....

No he did not makes certain things more "acceptable". It was going like that anyway

Iv given my opinion if you dont like it then fine but to just come back with:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't really expect anything substantial from you Steffy..

which is nothing more than a petty insult I wont bother in future


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:34 pm

Why was it going like that anyway?????

Bowe, Tyson, Holy,Golota, .........

Leave it out...either back up your points or jog on..

and it's Petty as in Tom Petty...."I'm learning to fly"

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Post by tcribb Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:35 pm

Don't think it had any bearing on the condition of recent fighters Truss, Foreman was a one off, laughed at when he returned because of his weight ect however he proved how handy he was. If anything he reignited the heavyweight scene with that win over Moorer.

Didn't hurt boxing anywhere near the volume of alphabet nonsense belts,the introduction of the junior weight classes and Amir Khan opening a twitter account.

Foremans win just proved how much better fighters were back in the days OK
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Post by Steffan Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why was it going like that anyway?????

Bowe, Tyson, Holy,Golota, .........

Yes big George changed the face of boxing thats for sure

Everyone would be coming in at 15 stone exactly if it wasnt for him

Listen to yourself

Which big fat old fighters are you referring to anyway

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leave it out...either back up your points or jog on..

and it's Petty as in Tom Petty...."I'm learning to fly"

Ok then il jog on

I spelt 'petty' right by the way if you check my post

Doh

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm

My suggestion is that 1) He seemed to make it acceptable for guys to Box long past when they should!! If Foreman can be champ at 40+ why can't I fight too...Before Foreman most commissions frowned on old fighters..

2. Before Foreman.. over-weight fighters were a laughing stock....Foreman k0 Moorer changed that......and made it more acceptable...

But hey I agree with the alphabet stuff..


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:44 pm

You just make vacuous statements without explaining them Mate!!!

It's all pie without filling!!

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Post by Steffan Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:47 pm

You could also spin in and say that it was inspirational someone of that age coming back and winning the title 20 years later

Look how well respected B Hop is at 47

Archie Moore was 46 when he retired in 1963. Do you blame Forman for that as well?

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Post by tcribb Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:54 pm

It's merely the state of the HW division that some of those older guys who are a lot less capable than Foreman, keep in the limelight.

And the alphabets keep sanctioning them for world title bouts.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:57 pm

Exceptions to every rule (Hoppo is also always in great shape and looks after himself between fights)......But at least you're trying..

Ali was 38 when he quit......I'm sure the medical profession would prefer my argument about golden oldies............

But fairplay to you...

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Post by NathanDB10 Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:03 pm

I don't think Foreman's second career was detrimental to boxing. It certainlty reignited people's interest, particularly in terms of the HW scene which was devoid of a central figure with Tyson doing porridge.

I think the worst you could say about it was that it brought a novelty value to the HW title, which probably isn't that great. By that I mean people probably started watching just to see how Foreman got on, which when you watch the fights, is not that great, he basically just got hit at will until one of his punches hit the button.

Not a million miles away from why people thought Valuev was interesting.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:11 pm

Lewis and Bowe more to blame. They ended the 210 heavyweight era.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:19 pm

Lewis was after Foreman.....

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:22 pm

Don't think you can blame Bowe and Lewis for being good.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:23 pm

They didn't have a spinning back fist though did they!!!!

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Post by Atila Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:11 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Since Foreman boxing in your 40's seems to have become more acceptable
Agree with this line 100%.

People seem to forgetten about brain damage and so on.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:16 am

Absolutely.....and it's harder to produce a good spinning back fist in your 40's!!

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:53 am

Forman had no choice he was a 40 year old heavyweight with extra fat that is hard to work off at that age. Lewis and Bowe were in their physical primes.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:58 am

Hard to work off at that age!!!

Can work fat off at any age.......Burn more calories than you take in....

You lose weight...

simple huh??

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:01 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Forman had no choice he was a 40 year old heavyweight with extra fat that is hard to work off at that age. Lewis and Bowe were in their physical primes.

Lewis wasn't fat though he was just big and Bowe at his best was also in pretty good shape

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:04 am

Absolutely....and as for the end of the 210 era....When was Ali, Tyson, Thomas, Berbick, Witherspoon, Weaver, Tate, Smith, Tucker, Douglas....

ever 210???

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:08 am

Lewis started off in fantastic shape for a heavy. Quick, strong and athletic. Then after Mcall 1 he blew up and traded his speed and movement for power.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:12 am

Forman fighting on late was nothing new at that time but because of his name and history (plus the fact he was due to make history) in the heavyweight division drew attention to it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:23 am

Nothing new at the time???

Who else was fighting for a title in their 40s at that time..

Back your opinions up..

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Post by nissan Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:07 am

How much did George Foreman mark 2 hurt boxing??

For me he never did hurt boxing he did every thing in the rules, he turned up and beat a man for the title. I understand your point in he was obese, to me that means you think some fat man can turn up and be Heavyweight champion of the world, so why don`t more fat obese men turn up and fight?
You make it sound so easy in winning a world title.
Maybe they should have a weight limit on the Heavyweight division, i am up for that. Then have a title for the super heavyweights, i am sure it was like that before, maybe i am wrong.
Lastly why are you so rude to people who post on here?
I read one of your posts earlier, were you said you might get kicked off the forum and joked about it. All i can say is a man who post over 6000 times must have a lot of time on his hands.. no offence.


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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:09 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Lewis started off in fantastic shape for a heavy. Quick, strong and athletic. Then after Mcall 1 he blew up and traded his speed and movement for power.

He was still in fantastic shape even when he put the weight on, wasn't as if it was 20lbs of fat.

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Post by ChelskiFanski Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:16 am

Bob Fitzsimmons fought (and won) at 48. If he'd carried on winning I'm sure he would have carried on fighting. You can't blame Foreman, blame the people who lost to him.

As for overweight heavyweights.... you really claiming Big George made it acceptable? Two ton could scrap a bit as Louis could testify to.

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Post by horizontalhero Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:54 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Lewis and Bowe more to blame. They ended the 210 heavyweight era.

Are you seriously suggesting that Lewis, at 6' 5" could make 210 and not be severly weight drained? I politely suggest that the answer is no.
Also you should cast an eye over the HWs of the mid to late 80's Page, Tubbs, etc had physics that would shame a channel swimmer- it only became fashionable for HW's to not look like MR Blobby when Tyson emerged.

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Post by Union Cane Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Atila wrote:People seem to forgetten about brain damage and so on.

Not sure if it was intentional, but that's the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...
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Post by AlexHuckerby Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:45 pm

You don't need to be so angry all the time Truss and cast people down you know!!

Anyway, to your point, I don't particularly think it's George Foreman's fault, I would much rather prefer to blame Moorer, he should have beaten him, without a shadow of a doubt. Teddy Atlas was pleading with him in the corner to do the right things and watch out for the right hand that Foreman was setting up, he didn't. Is it more fair to blame the people that lost to him on his road back up the HW division, I believe at the time, he sort of got a shot almost out of nowhere as he didn't deserve it at the time also, he was cherrypicked for Moorer and it backfired, horrendously.

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Post by OasisBFC Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:55 pm

alma wrote:I'd argue Tyson's decline/going to prison did more damage. Prior to that (Douglas defeat aside) we had a recognised undisputed HW champ, known all over the world. I don't doubt a Tyson v Douglas 2 would have resulted in a win for Iron Mike, which would have set up a Holyfield clash etc etc. With Tyson out the picture, the HW scene grew more fractured and we had Foreman as champ, Bowe chucking his belt in the bin etc etc.

i'd argue that tyson going to prison didn't change too much int he long run.
he lost against douglas, and holyfield got the belts. tyson loses to holyfield all day in my opinion.

with lewis being a champ, holyfield being a champ i have tyson picking up scraps in the divison.

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Post by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:06 pm

Foreman still looked infinitely better than John McDermott at the weekend

Spoiler:

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Post by compelling and rich Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:24 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My suggestion is that 1) He seemed to make it acceptable for guys to Box long past when they should!! If Foreman can be champ at 40+ why can't I fight too...Before Foreman most commissions frowned on old fighters..
2. Before Foreman.. over-weight fighters were a laughing stock....Foreman k0 Moorer changed that......and made it more acceptable...

But hey I agree with the alphabet stuff..


it didnt stop them wheeling out ali when he was already breaking down with parkinsons. the commissions will let anyone fight who will earn tham money whether fat/old or serious condition like ali, this has nothing to do with george. the fact that he won the title suggests that it wasnt the wrong decision either. and while old and large he was till in tons better shape than many of the tub of lards we see today. do you think mcdermott would have beaten moorer?

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Post by huw Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:06 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'll hold my hand up and say I was jumping for joy when Foreman knocked out Moorer....However on reflection it was probably the worst thing that's happened to Boxing in the last twenty years..

We had Tubbs and Witherspoon both 6ft 3 and 240 when over-weight (hey they seem slim now) before George came back... and they were absolutely pilloried in the US for embarrassing Boxing with their conditioning...but hey they went 15 at a decent pace!! (on youtube the fight)

Thing is Foreman shouldn't have been Boxing at his age (Since Foreman boxing in your 40's seems to have become more acceptable)....he was basically a punchbag with a huge punch.. and he revelled in his obese condition!!! Who can remember the amount of times he was pictured with a tray of hamburgers???..

Sure he won the title by catching Moorer but let's face it he'd won probably one round and was taking shots as he was against Holy all night!!

Point is...since George won the title it seems to have become acceptable to be a slob and to box way past when you should!!.......

For me looking back Foreman mark 2 is a black mark on the heavyweight division and a bad advert for the game as a whole!!

I don't think George has anything to be held accountable for.

Yes he came back old and out of shape but he was still skilled enough to win the heavy weight title. Had he been seriously hurt in the ring then you would have a case.

Maybe we should blame the heavyweight division at the time for not being too good for him to be able to do that.

He was an inspiration for achieving what he did at his age and being aable to come back after so long out of the game.

Had he boxed continually from 69-97 I would say it is a different matter but he had 10 years off.

If a fighter is capable of being the best whilst old and out of shape who are we to say anything?

He boxed for a living so saying it was dangerous to let him in the ring at an older age doesn't really stand up, these guys get punched for a living. If you are saying they should be stopped when they get to a certain age (regardless of how capable they are) then you are moving towards boxing shouldn't be allowed at all teritory as far as I'm concerned.

If boxers are prepared to get into a ring whilst out of shape and unable to compete then they are letting themselves and their fans down. If they do it and win a world title then they have done what was required.

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Post by Il Gialloblu Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:02 pm

Union Cane wrote:
Atila wrote:People seem to forgetten about brain damage and so on.

Not sure if it was intentional, but that's the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...

Laugh

I saw a few goodies this week. A couple of them by boxing poster johnson2. Sorry mate.

https://www.606v2.com/t22151-if-true-this-will-only-add-to-the-legend#870561

https://www.606v2.com/t22323-chelsea-to-deal-with-fans#880711

https://www.606v2.com/t12532-americans-using-golf-as-a-verb#865946
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:27 pm

Il Gialloblu wrote:
Union Cane wrote:
Atila wrote:People seem to forgetten about brain damage and so on.

Not sure if it was intentional, but that's the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...

Laugh

I saw a few goodies this week. A couple of them by boxing poster johnson2. Sorry mate.

https://www.606v2.com/t22151-if-true-this-will-only-add-to-the-legend#870561

https://www.606v2.com/t22323-chelsea-to-deal-with-fans#880711

https://www.606v2.com/t12532-americans-using-golf-as-a-verb#865946

Good work Il Gialloblu, but I have to ask, what were you doing reading the WRASSLIN section? For a man who went down a tunnel in Vietnam, you sure do like girly things.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Il Gialloblu Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:45 pm

Everyone does things that other people might look down on, Tino.

Hell, I once read part of the old Strictly thread but I never told anyone.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:54 pm

Il Gialloblu wrote:
Hell, I once read part of the old Strictly thread but I never told anyone.

Ahhh, the glorious old days. Almost makes me miss Michaels.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by The Galveston Giant Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:27 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Il Gialloblu wrote:
Union Cane wrote:
Atila wrote:People seem to forgetten about brain damage and so on.

Not sure if it was intentional, but that's the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...

Laugh

I saw a few goodies this week. A couple of them by boxing poster johnson2. Sorry mate.

https://www.606v2.com/t22151-if-true-this-will-only-add-to-the-legend#870561

https://www.606v2.com/t22323-chelsea-to-deal-with-fans#880711

https://www.606v2.com/t12532-americans-using-golf-as-a-verb#865946

Good work Il Gialloblu, but I have to ask, what were you doing reading the WRASSLIN section? For a man who went down a tunnel in Vietnam, you sure do like girly things.

Did you go down a tunnel during the Vietnam war Gialloblu?
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:33 pm

I don't think he is that old, GG. He did post a link to some pictures of the tunnels he went down on a holiday though, pretty tight squeeze and you certainly wouldn't catch me down one.

Makes his love of WRASSLIN all the more baffling.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by The Galveston Giant Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:42 pm

Ah cheers mate, my hat goes off to anyone who had the balls to go into they tunnels during the war.
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Post by Il Gialloblu Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:17 am

It's more a passing interest than a love, Tino.

Agreed GG, I was down there for less than 5 minutes and it was horrible.
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