Andy Murray - I Have No More Faith

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Andy here we are again. The same old problem. Cannot take the incentive in a match when it matters. In my brutal and up most honest assessment of this match was that Djokovic was lucky. That type of performance against anyone more clinical would've won resulted in a 3/4 set defeat. For me Murray had so many chances in the match to win and gave it all back. Simply put he does not believe enough he can win a Slam. For me he wasted chance after chance. I hear all this give him credit, credit for what? Tossing the match in when it was there for the taking? Andy looked so effortsly on his FH and he was bossing Djokovic all around the baseline. I cannot from this match see Andy ever winning a Slam. I am a British tennis fan, but Andy's performance in the 4th set was pathetic. You only chuck in sets when you know for sure you can take the match in the next set. To try and do that against a proven champion was very misjudged and arrogant. Credit to Djokovic yes he won the match, but it wasn't a match he deserved to win. Some of his court play was Ferrer-esc.

When Andy Finally won the 3rd set, I expected him to click into 3rd gear and take the match in the 4th, but did he? Boll0cks did he!! He gifted points like they were going to come back round. Yes he got himself back in it in the 5th, but at the expence of fatigue on Djokovic's behalf.

Great players see out matches when in control. Great players do not dip and create problems for themselves in match winning positions.

Andy has the talent to be great, but wastes it with a poor mindset.

The Murray fans will come up with al sorts of nonsense to boost him.

Golden Eras ( so we get grant Andy honorary Slam status), now increasingly bizarre ways to elevate him to #3.

It's just funny tbh.

And equally funny watching Federer fans trying to change rules of debate on how players greatness should be defined. I really do not see the need for antagonism either. Was I on here trying to belittle Federer fans when they dared to believe he may win another slam, or when they were saying he was playing his best tennis ever even bettering his form shown when he won his slams or when they talk up his chances. No of course not so why do we get that treatment from some certain Fed fans?

I never said Feds playing his best. My own opinion is he's way down overall on his peak.
You never got " treatment", people argue. Your position wasn't enable but you stuck to it like a limpet.

No I never said you in particular but there was certainly a good amount who felt he was. As for my position on the slam issue why shouldn't I stick to it. After all Murray detractors have ALWAYS used slams to rate or should I say not rate Murray in the past so why not carry on with that then? Or if you wish we can throw the importance of slams out the window and start talking about Masters Cup wins and Murray's head-to-head records.

CaledonianCraig wrote:And equally funny watching Federer fans trying to change rules of debate on how players greatness should be defined. I really do not see the need for antagonism either. Was I on here trying to belittle Federer fans when they dared to believe he may win another slam, or when they were saying he was playing his best tennis ever even bettering his form shown when he won his slams or when they talk up his chances. No of course not so why do we get that treatment from Fed fans?

CaledonianCraig

I'm a Federer fan, and I was the first to comment in support of Murray on this thread.

Have a care before you generalise about others, OK?

Yes reckoner of course and have edited that post. There are Federer fans who keep their feet on the ground and see the bigger picture in tennis of course there are and if people wish to get behind there man I have never had any problem whatsoever with that. It is when they round on fans of other players and berate those players and their talents or lack of it that grates. Like I said in the semi-final topic I made all of the top four are marvellous players some more so than others but I credit them all not just one.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes reckoner of course and have edited that post. There are Federer fans who keep their feet on the ground and see the bigger picture in tennis of course there are and if people wish to get behind there man I have never had any problem whatsoever with that. It is when they round on fans of other players and berate those players and their talents or lack of it that grates. Like I said in the semi-final topic I made all of the top four are marvellous players some more so than others but I credit them all not just one.

Fair enough.

There is a tendency for people to get ahead of themselves where Murray is concerned, don't you find? I keep reading stuff about how Murray has caught up to Federer in terms of technique (!) and implications that it's a mere formality that he'll pass Fed in the rankings in 2012, sigh.

It's all a little premature and does begin to grate a little.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Was I on here trying to belittle Federer fans when they dared to believe he may win another slam, or when they were saying he was playing his best tennis ever even bettering his form shown when he won his slams or when they talk up his chances.

Hold on! What's the logic here? I am sure you understand that real Federer fans woudl never admit that the best of Federer can be beaten by the new modern players? This is what I was in effect admitting and that shows more objectivity than fanatism! isn't it?....even if my belief might be wrong.

Would you have the guts to admit that Murray at 30 is better than at 24 yet gets beaten by lesser names? I much doubt it, so at least you shoudl respect the views of those who can face their preferred players best form can be beaten.

But again, your logic fails to see the bigger picture cause you are a real fan of Murray and almost all your comments are heavily partial in his favour.

reckoner wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes reckoner of course and have edited that post. There are Federer fans who keep their feet on the ground and see the bigger picture in tennis of course there are and if people wish to get behind there man I have never had any problem whatsoever with that. It is when they round on fans of other players and berate those players and their talents or lack of it that grates. Like I said in the semi-final topic I made all of the top four are marvellous players some more so than others but I credit them all not just one.

Fair enough.

There is a tendency for people to get ahead of themselves where Murray is concerned, don't you find? I keep reading stuff about how Murray has caught up to Federer in terms of technique (!) and implications that it's a mere formality that he'll pass Fed in the rankings in 2012, sigh.

It's all a little premature and does begin to grate a little.

I can understand that Reckoner. The other trouble is it piles on the pressure in a way too. I am just taking yesterday as a great match and a big step forward in terms of mental fortitude against the top three. Still lots of improvement needed - 4th set was not good. Then again, if he is this close and still has room for improvement that can only be a good thing

carrieg4 wrote:
I can understand that Reckoner. The other trouble is it piles on the pressure in a way too. I am just taking yesterday as a great match and a big step forward in terms of mental fortitude against the top three. Still lots of improvement needed - 4th set was not good. Then again, if he is this close and still has room for improvement that can only be a good thing

Yeah totally, I'd agree with that.

reckoner wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes reckoner of course and have edited that post. There are Federer fans who keep their feet on the ground and see the bigger picture in tennis of course there are and if people wish to get behind there man I have never had any problem whatsoever with that. It is when they round on fans of other players and berate those players and their talents or lack of it that grates. Like I said in the semi-final topic I made all of the top four are marvellous players some more so than others but I credit them all not just one.

Fair enough.

There is a tendency for people to get ahead of themselves where Murray is concerned, don't you find? I keep reading stuff about how Murray has caught up to Federer in terms of technique (!) and implications that it's a mere formality that he'll pass Fed in the rankings in 2012, sigh.

It's all a little premature and does begin to grate a little.

That is a bit of a generalisation as well. I don't see where I've said anything like that and certainly not on the technique side of things. Federer and Murray are two totally different types of players and I can't see anywhere where I've said he'll pass Federer in the rankings this year. He might or he might not. Who knows? The fact we are even talking about is as a possibility must surely display in itself the talent/merits of Murray.

It also begins to grate with Murray fans when (speaking for myself here) I have said on multiple threads that improvement is still needed in various areas. I'd understand people's ires if I was making ludicrous statements like Murray will win all four slams this year etc but I haven't. I am a fan of Murray's and have my fingers crossed he is heading in the right direction and yet I get slated for it.

I don't think reckoner was referencing anything you have said Craig. Most of us Murray fans are fairly realistic, just happy to see him playing well

Yes most of us are realistic. Like I have said before, Murray may never win a slam but he's certainly making for exciting times if you are a fan of British tennis players.

reckoner wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And equally funny watching Federer fans trying to change rules of debate on how players greatness should be defined. I really do not see the need for antagonism either. Was I on here trying to belittle Federer fans when they dared to believe he may win another slam, or when they were saying he was playing his best tennis ever even bettering his form shown when he won his slams or when they talk up his chances. No of course not so why do we get that treatment from Fed fans?

CaledonianCraig

I'm a Federer fan, and I was the first to comment in support of Murray on this thread.

Have a care before you generalise about others, OK?

And there I am halfway down the first page telling Lk how well his man did, and that he looked closer to a Slam IMO.

So that being the case then why all the objections when Murray fans feel they see progress if you felt you saw it as well or were impressed by how well he did?

Thinks Andy needs some tips from Jamie about getting over the line in a big match. Jamie will have his 2nd slam title under his belt before Andy gets his first it looks like.

You just started losing it by claiming a few slam events in isolation, with marginal ( and questionable ) advantage for Murray made him #3. Then you said that was on the basis of a theory propounded by others, and then you decided you believed it as well, so you needn't have laid it off for hours.

You se the problem?

No what happened was banbrotam was ridiculed for saying something along the lines of Murray being ahead of Federer now and he was pounced upon. Now if we are going by 'now' meaning recent times then admittedly it is close which means Tenez was wrong to make it out to be such a ridiculous statement. Even if we dig deeper than slams and look at other events then Murray I think won more titles last year than Federer although Federer did win WTF - so again on that front very close. Not a case of it being Federer being far ahead people are making out if at all. That is my point. And as for the theory it is true and you know it. For years if Murray fans dared claim he was a top quality player or potential slam winner they were ridiculed or reminded he had never won a slam and that has been used time and again against him so if we are to use that same rule on other debates (being fair after all) then it should be used in this case. Either that or the no slams being won by him should be dropped - I was never a fan of it anyway. I have said it before - should he ever win a slam will it really make a great deal of difference to those that don't rate him. I say no.

And round and round we go.......

That is how things transpired after all.

Either that or the no slams being won by him should be dropped - I was never a fan of it anyway.

You may think that, but i'm sure Murray won't. He probably gets teased everyday by Jamie about it.

Well sounds like you've waited a while to use this riposte so I won't be in your way any longer but perhaps those that it should be aimed at aren't either.

There is like a cycle with being a fan of Murray. He goes deep into a Slam and gets beaten. We then say 'there are positives' he will be stronger next time. Inbetween that assessment and the next Slam are Master events, he wins one and then we speak of the form as if carrying that into a Slam will be enough for him to win the Slam outright. It doesn't happen. Part and parcel of being a Murray fan is going through that same cycle. Take the back end of last year, Murray won Shanghai, Tokyo and we all thought he could win the WTF and he obtains the ranking of 3 in the world and we are led to believe it is a building block. Federer goes and wins Paris, Basel and WTF and moves back up. With Federer nowadays that is how extreme is form can be. He can under perform at Slams or Master events and yet put a string of results together like the switching on of a light. Like last year on Clay he played poorly and yet at the FO reached the Final.

My concern now as Murray fan isn't so much can he win a Slam, but can he distance himself from a chasing pack that includes Tsonga and Berdych and also up and coming youngsters in Dolgopolov, Tomic and Raonic.

legendkillar wrote:There is like a cycle with being a fan of Murray. He goes deep into a Slam and gets beaten. We then say 'there are positives' he will be stronger next time. Inbetween that assessment and the next Slam are Master events, he wins one and then we speak of the form as if carrying that into a Slam will be enough for him to win the Slam outright. It doesn't happen. Part and parcel of being a Murray fan is going through that same cycle. Take the back end of last year, Murray won Shanghai, Tokyo and we all thought he could win the WTF and he obtains the ranking of 3 in the world and we are led to believe it is a building block. Federer goes and wins Paris, Basel and WTF and moves back up. With Federer nowadays that is how extreme is form can be. He can under perform at Slams or Master events and yet put a string of results together like the switching on of a light. Like last year on Clay he played poorly and yet at the FO reached the Final.

My concern now as Murray fan isn't so much can he win a Slam, but can he distance himself from a chasing pack that includes Tsonga and Berdych and also up and coming youngsters in Dolgopolov, Tomic and Raonic.

You're depressing me now LK. He is miles ahead of the chasing pack and closer than ever to the slam. He is three weeks into a major change in his career and has shown great improvement - take it for what it is, enjoy the matches an see what happens. If he is in the same position this time next year I will take your point.

carrieg4 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:There is like a cycle with being a fan of Murray. He goes deep into a Slam and gets beaten. We then say 'there are positives' he will be stronger next time. Inbetween that assessment and the next Slam are Master events, he wins one and then we speak of the form as if carrying that into a Slam will be enough for him to win the Slam outright. It doesn't happen. Part and parcel of being a Murray fan is going through that same cycle. Take the back end of last year, Murray won Shanghai, Tokyo and we all thought he could win the WTF and he obtains the ranking of 3 in the world and we are led to believe it is a building block. Federer goes and wins Paris, Basel and WTF and moves back up. With Federer nowadays that is how extreme is form can be. He can under perform at Slams or Master events and yet put a string of results together like the switching on of a light. Like last year on Clay he played poorly and yet at the FO reached the Final.

My concern now as Murray fan isn't so much can he win a Slam, but can he distance himself from a chasing pack that includes Tsonga and Berdych and also up and coming youngsters in Dolgopolov, Tomic and Raonic.

You're depressing me now LK. He is miles ahead of the chasing pack and closer than ever to the slam. He is three weeks into a major change in his career and has shown great improvement - take it for what it is, enjoy the matches an see what happens. If he is in the same position this time next year I will take your point.

Next year I hope he is a 2 time Slam winner and I shall be smiling while eating humble pie

LK there are parallels here with Henman. Tim left it too late to part company with Felgate and join up with Stefanki but at least Andy has turned to Lendl early enough to hopefully make a real impact on his game.

The main doubt I have is that Djokovic could well do a Federer for the next couple of years and win the vast majority of slams leaving Nadal and the rest to pick uip any remaining crumbs. If that happens he may well get only one or two real opportunites to win a slam and will have to grab them rather than letting someone else like Del Potro steal it instead.

legendkillar wrote:

carrieg4 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:There is like a cycle with being a fan of Murray. He goes deep into a Slam and gets beaten. We then say 'there are positives' he will be stronger next time. Inbetween that assessment and the next Slam are Master events, he wins one and then we speak of the form as if carrying that into a Slam will be enough for him to win the Slam outright. It doesn't happen. Part and parcel of being a Murray fan is going through that same cycle. Take the back end of last year, Murray won Shanghai, Tokyo and we all thought he could win the WTF and he obtains the ranking of 3 in the world and we are led to believe it is a building block. Federer goes and wins Paris, Basel and WTF and moves back up. With Federer nowadays that is how extreme is form can be. He can under perform at Slams or Master events and yet put a string of results together like the switching on of a light. Like last year on Clay he played poorly and yet at the FO reached the Final.

My concern now as Murray fan isn't so much can he win a Slam, but can he distance himself from a chasing pack that includes Tsonga and Berdych and also up and coming youngsters in Dolgopolov, Tomic and Raonic.

You're depressing me now LK. He is miles ahead of the chasing pack and closer than ever to the slam. He is three weeks into a major change in his career and has shown great improvement - take it for what it is, enjoy the matches an see what happens. If he is in the same position this time next year I will take your point.

Next year I hope he is a 2 time Slam winner and I shall be smiling while eating humble pie

That's more like it

carrieg4 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

carrieg4 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:There is like a cycle with being a fan of Murray. He goes deep into a Slam and gets beaten. We then say 'there are positives' he will be stronger next time. Inbetween that assessment and the next Slam are Master events, he wins one and then we speak of the form as if carrying that into a Slam will be enough for him to win the Slam outright. It doesn't happen. Part and parcel of being a Murray fan is going through that same cycle. Take the back end of last year, Murray won Shanghai, Tokyo and we all thought he could win the WTF and he obtains the ranking of 3 in the world and we are led to believe it is a building block. Federer goes and wins Paris, Basel and WTF and moves back up. With Federer nowadays that is how extreme is form can be. He can under perform at Slams or Master events and yet put a string of results together like the switching on of a light. Like last year on Clay he played poorly and yet at the FO reached the Final.

My concern now as Murray fan isn't so much can he win a Slam, but can he distance himself from a chasing pack that includes Tsonga and Berdych and also up and coming youngsters in Dolgopolov, Tomic and Raonic.

You're depressing me now LK. He is miles ahead of the chasing pack and closer than ever to the slam. He is three weeks into a major change in his career and has shown great improvement - take it for what it is, enjoy the matches an see what happens. If he is in the same position this time next year I will take your point.

Next year I hope he is a 2 time Slam winner and I shall be smiling while eating humble pie

That's more like it

If he wins carrie, treat me to beer and toblerone

legendkillar wrote:

carrieg4 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

carrieg4 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:There is like a cycle with being a fan of Murray. He goes deep into a Slam and gets beaten. We then say 'there are positives' he will be stronger next time. Inbetween that assessment and the next Slam are Master events, he wins one and then we speak of the form as if carrying that into a Slam will be enough for him to win the Slam outright. It doesn't happen. Part and parcel of being a Murray fan is going through that same cycle. Take the back end of last year, Murray won Shanghai, Tokyo and we all thought he could win the WTF and he obtains the ranking of 3 in the world and we are led to believe it is a building block. Federer goes and wins Paris, Basel and WTF and moves back up. With Federer nowadays that is how extreme is form can be. He can under perform at Slams or Master events and yet put a string of results together like the switching on of a light. Like last year on Clay he played poorly and yet at the FO reached the Final.

My concern now as Murray fan isn't so much can he win a Slam, but can he distance himself from a chasing pack that includes Tsonga and Berdych and also up and coming youngsters in Dolgopolov, Tomic and Raonic.

You're depressing me now LK. He is miles ahead of the chasing pack and closer than ever to the slam. He is three weeks into a major change in his career and has shown great improvement - take it for what it is, enjoy the matches an see what happens. If he is in the same position this time next year I will take your point.

Next year I hope he is a 2 time Slam winner and I shall be smiling while eating humble pie

That's more like it

If he wins carrie, treat me to beer and toblerone

You're on!

Come on Murray and win a Slam and earn me chocolate and beer goodness!!

Beer and toblerone, you brits will drink beer with anything! Never heard of that one before. I miss a beer, all I can get here is scotch, vodka, and some ok home made wine or moonshine. I can buy beer but it costs almost 10 dollars for a can.

CaledonianCraig wrote:rofl.

If you can find me a post of mine where I have said that now (after yesterday) Murray will definitely win a slam then I am out of here to never post again. Likewise find me a post where I said he was far better than Federer. All I said was going by slams over the last year his record is better than Federer's.

Didn't you say that Murray is better than Federer now based on the last 5 slam performances? If you didn't say then why are we discussing this tripe at all. You din't say Murray's record was better than Federer, no no not this one. You used this as a conclusion to put that Murray is now better than Federer. You ( and banbro) used Murray's 5 set loss to the #1 player against Federer's 4 set loss to #2 player as an evidence to prove Murray is now ahead of Federer. Atleast have courage to accept the gist of your own argument. Don't try to hide behind exact wordings, people can get what you were trying to imply.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

I really don't see what you are getting your knickers in a knot for. It is certainly no crime for Murray fans to take a lot from yesterday's match and Andy himself. Why it should really bother you so much I have no idea. I don't berate or irk Federer fans if they feel their man has got a chance of winning slams this year, or fans of any other players so I really cannot see your problem.

You change your tune as the events go by. First you make too much about closing of the gap etc etc.. based on just one match ( which ANdy lost). Then you post that lets not get ahead of ourselves. No one but Murray fans were getting ahead of themselves based on one poorly played match. Then you say "It is certainly no crime for Murray fans to take a lot from yesterday's match".. You read your comments CC. Don't tell me I didn't warn you about making yourself look silly.

Its no crime to have faith in your favorite player. Honestly I am also a fan of Gulbis and his game. I have faith ( its getting slimmer though) that someday Gulbis might do some justice to his talent and do better than losing in the first rounds on GS. Only thing is trying to find out strange ways of making your favorite player look more glorious than he actually might be on conventional tennis grounds. Even worse going about arguing on it as you have been doing.

CaledonianCraig wrote:
We have three slams left in this calendar year and not just bookmakers but pundits and ex-tennis pros will have Murray amongst the favourites and some will tip him for success. It just sort of puzzles me that you reappear to post here once Murray has exited. Rather convenient that I think.

If it pleases you that ex-tennis pros and pundits put Murray as a favorite then its completely fine. I don't deny their agreement on this though I may not agree with them. And I chose to post here when I want to.

Yes of course you post here when you want to - very convenient I'd say.

Yes I said on last five slams records I did say his results put him ahead of Federer and I stand by that. But where the hell that indicates I am saying Murray will win a slam I will never know. As that is the point I am making here.

Where have I made too much about him closing the gap (boy you like twisting words don't you). You could say the evidence is on the back of one match (a defeat) but is it really? My evidence goes back to when you weren't posting here at the end of last year when Andy Murray stitched together a hat-trick of back-to-back titles, followed by him winning in Syndney, appointing Lendl as coach and seeing a clear improvement in his on-court demeanour (which helps) and after three weeks with Lendl a far more aggressive approach to his game. So you see a lot more than just one rogue match against the world No.1 no less that backs up others (not just Murray fans) causes for optimism. As for arguing? No not arguing merely debating my point and debating against those who post inaccurate statements or who try to put words in my mouth.

Yes it pleases me that ex-tennis pros, tennis experts and pundits place Murray amongst the favourites as it just re-iterates that he is a real force in world tennis respected by those far more in the know than some forum posters.

Very well CC.