England's Six Nations

Personaly I feel, also with my hand on my heart, that I am in a position to judge the final standings of this years 6 Nations.

Morg's prediction: England shall lose (not by large point defecits) their three remaining games and finish fourth in the championship.

This is an interesting and new look England team far from the finished article. Their front 5 is good and very strong. Behind that I think that they have little to offer at this moment in time. The back-row isn't bad but it is an area of great strength for their next three opponents. Ben Morgan is the stand out player for me, Robshaw I feel is average, Croft is good but not at his best right now. The halfbacks are pretty average, including the likes of Flood who is set to return to the team for round 3. The midfield is one dimensional and lacking in skill going forward. A lot hinders on the return of the mighty Tuilagi. The back 3; Foden is class but is capable of bad off days, the wings are inexperienced apart from Ashton who is 'found out.' Any team that can match England in the scrums, nullify Tuilagi and not kick loosely as the wingers just pass it back inside to Foden who is a real threat shall keep England at a low score. Defence so far has condeded two tries, which were lucky ones, but against poor attacking teams.

From a biased, one-eyed and arrogant Welshmans perspective, a welsh victory then another two losses is to be suffered. I feel I'm being generous by including a 3rd place option in the poll.

Should England prove me wrong, it will be egg on face day.

Edit:full poll options included by rugbydreamer as per requests

Welsh WUMs are truly out in force at the moment.

SAM, your comment is off topic for the discussion. This is a genuine debate and not a wind up. Please give a partial view of it or get lost.

Morgannwg wrote:Please give a partial view of it or get lost.

If you change the poll to reflect all available options then I'll think about it. As it is you're just trying to get a rise. I guess I fell for it.

Given that this is just an expanded version of what you posted on the 'bickering' thread it's a bit difficult to take it seriously. Maybe you should have left it there. It was more relevant to that level of "discussion".

By the way I assume you mean "impartial". Not something you could be accused of.

I dunno. I think morgannwg is being serious here rather than winding up elsewhere. It's just that some Welsh poster or other has posted something similar every year since 1878 which makes it hard to take this particular year's entry that seriously. Which is a tad unfair since although I might quibble with the details I basically agree.

Still, you never know! Haven't given up hope and if we can up our game again, maybe there'll be some magic.

On current form, I would say England are the 4th best team in the six nations. But we all know form can turn around very quickly. We have only seen glimpses of what this new England team can do for about 20 mins in the second half of the Italy game. An lets not forget England are 2 from 2, against teams like Italy and Scotland I have never really seen a decent game. Usually its a droll slog like we have seen so far or we see a cricket score.

I have also seen many a six nation where England have started poorly and ended pretty brilliantly.. For Example vs France and Scotland in 2009 I think.

So in summary, England, Wales and potentially France are 2 from 2 and are all capable of beating each other.

England are in a good place results wise but they now face the three form teams in the championship so far.

Englands problems run throughout the team. The English forwards once terrified teams that is no longer the case. The front row has clear issues in the setpiece. Cole for all his good work in the loose and at the breakdown has not imposed himself on opposition packs in the scrum. Hartley has temperament issues on saturday as well as the lineout falling apart.

The second row whilst workmanlike does not contain an enforcer who is going to really smash into people. The front five are not the force that they have been for the last two decades. One thing that English fans could bank on is no longer a fearsome weapon and so far their setpiece has looked vulnerable.

The backrow lacks balance and a genuine openside. Morgan for all his ball carrying and drive still needs a grafter at six and a fast scavenger at seven if he is to really fullfill his potential.

The Halfbacks so far Youngs and Hodgson have been ponderous. Charlies chargedowns have won matches but the rest of his game has been staid and unspectacular. tactical kicking has been wayward, Distribution to the midfield has consisted of using Barrit to charge up and to recycle slow ball allowing the defence to reset. Lee Dickson has increased the tempo when he has come on but it still remains to be seen if he can do that all game.

The midfield has been solid defensively with Barritt at the heart of the defence but they have falied dismally to make line breaks and create space to bring their strike runners into the game. Neither has displayed the quick hands or pace that is needed in the midfield although Barritt looks more comfortable in the midfield than Farrell. Farrell has nailed his kicks but if England are going to produce anything in the backs with ball in hand Manu has to come in. How fit he is and how much form he can bring immediatly is questionable but he is without doubt Englands real threat in their backline.

The back three havent had much chance with ball in hand but Ashton in paticular looks off form and a shadow of the player from last year. Foden had a nightmare in Rome. Both are however quality players and some quick ball could see them start to find form. Strettle is a defensive liability and has shown nothing in attack but who else is there who is a genuine option.

Form would say that England should lose the next three matches, France Wales and Ireland have all played at a higher intensity and with more physicality in their matches than England. The question is can England step up several notches and outplay those sides. I have to say no I dont think so. Whilst I expect this team to develop if Lancaster is given the job long term at the moment they are way off the pace.

Lancaster has been bold in his squad and is developing the kind of ethos and team spirit that will take the teams development forward but it will be the AI's before England really start to click. Next year they should be able to field more experience and more settled teams. This year is just the start of a very long learning curve that ends in 2015.

Well said Tycroes, but I do not agree with you on their set piece. Cole along with A.Jones will be the Lions tightheads. Corbs has been getting credit but I have always seen him struggle against Adam Jones and whatever the French put out.

They should gain parity with us for most of the game, perhaps beat us in some of the scrums. Gatland needs to put a specialist tighthead on the bench.

Well Morg, against the Italians the scrum was struggling until castrogiovanni went off. Even when he had gone they failed to exert any dominance and lost two against the head to the Italians. Thats along with the three lineouts lost. So Ithink my point about the setpiece is fair.

Just popping in. I'm sorry to say that on the whole your assessment is fair, but I hope we can beat at least one of the remaining 3 teams we have to play. But we haven't given much evidence to counter your OP. I think calling Robshaw average is unfair but he certainly isn't a 7. I hope you are wrong but we shall see

But it would have been better to include 1st and 3rd as options, even if neither you nor I think that will be the result

What I should have said is Robshaw has been an average 7 and not a very inspiring captain.Tycroes their set piece won them the game, the Italians always spoil at scrum time.

Ill go with fourth as I really can't see England winning another game. So far a charge down has been the difference between England winning and losing in the last two games. I've seen very little creativity and as such practically no try scoring chances made by England and theyve so far played Scotland and Italy which are probably the weakest two sides in the 6n's.

England have averaged two point something wins in the 6n's since their 2003 6n and WC triumph. Theyve had two wins this year and without wanting to sound like a wum I think most will agree they were pretty lucky to win either.

Wales will prove too much in the next match and will win by a small score despite their poor record in Twickenham.
France will run a hat full in from distance to end up comfortable winners.
Ireland will tear England a new one (again).

Having said all that, you never know. So far my predictions are about 50:50 so I could be half wrong.

England has won two matches despite not looking fluid, their home match against Wales is the biggest problem, they may have won thus far, but momentum is not on their side where as Wales are on fire and have all the momentum and importantly the confidence. I think that will be a close one, but Wales should win that one.

Then england moves to France for another away fixture, France should be too good.

I don't think Ireland has the best form at the moment, although they aren't looking bad and certainly are more fluid than England, but at Twickenham I would expect England to win.

England's six nations is much dependant on their peformance against Wales, they have two weeks to figure it out.

I am not impressed with their forwards which have been average thus far, but their problem lies in a back line that is recieving static ball. Hopefully Tuilagi will make a difference.

At this point England could still end up anywhere from 1st to 4th. Too difficult to predict.

Winning is a habit and they have been doing that.

Interesting...... Its swings and roundabouts for me. Is SL and the team building up to something special or has the first two games set the tone? I'm hoping for the first option as the first 2 away games were proper battles. Any other teams played in the conditions Rome offered? Judgement shouldn't be cast until after the Wales and France games, where we'll (I hope) have the first choice and more creative players in.

I've always maintained this is a no lose 6N for the current England set up. Caretaker coaches, new faces, injured first choices. These are not excuses but Facts. However it'll still be disappionting if England do lose, badly, the next 3 games.

I find the confidence with which some posters declare England's weaknesses a bit baffling, frankly.

We really do not have any basis to know what this England squad is capable of at this stage. They have played 2 away matches in appalling conditions with a makeshift backline and a very inexperienced matchday 22. And won both of them. Not playing pretty rugby, but also without any more luck than, say, Wales getting a kickable last second penalty against Ireland.

Also, consider how Scotland played against Wales. They found another gear, matched them for 40 minutes and if they hadn't lost their discipline (stupidly and unnecessarily in the case of de Luca's yellow), who knows what might have happened? And yet some people are confidently predicting that England can only play one way.

Wales are still favourites. England will have to up their game at the breakdown and in defence to stay in the game. But at this stage we have little basis to know that they won't, especially if Flood, Tuilagi and Wood are available to bring a bit more balance to the side.

TycroesOsprey wrote:England are in a good place results wise but they now face the three form teams in the championship so far.

Thats right, because its easy to judge form based on the fact that Ireland and France have only played one game each...

Poorfour wrote:We really do not have any basis to know what this England squad is capable of at this stage. They have played 2 away matches in appalling conditions

Well that's not true, is it? They've played one away match in appalling conditions. But Biltong is right that it's impossible to predict how England will fare over the course of the championship. Anywhere from first place to fourth is right and the poll should really reflect those possibilities.

Alerted the mods to this thread because it is obviously a WUM by a very bored person.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Anywhere from first place to fourth is right and the poll should really reflect those possibilities.

Yep, otherwise this is the kind of poll that westernosprey/gnollbeast/maestegmafia etc would post. There's no issue with anyone posting that they don't think England will do that well in the rest of the tournament, but to then put together a limited poll with options missing (and including 6th which is very, very unlikely) just smacks of wummery.

Well, the pole is clearly a WUM, as it would take a series of freak results for us to finish last - we're 2 for 2 so far, while Scotland and Italy are both 0 for 2 and in all honesty I think it highly improbable that both of them will win 2 of their remaining games (whoever wins between them will do well to beat either of their other two opponents).

As such, I think England won't finish worse than 4th even if they lose all 3 remaining matches. My guess is that we might win one more though - the best chance may be against Ireland at Twickenham (as I think Ireland have a bit of a soft midfield, whereas France and Wales both look very strong), but we might manage to raise our game in any of the 3 remaining games and nick a victory as the underdog.

Of course the other issue is how we perform with the players coming back from injury - Flood and Tuillagi should be available from next weekend, and perhaps Lawes as well. Bring those 3 back into the side, and start Morgan rather than Dowson and I think we will see some significant improvement in performance.

I'm trying to remain positive. Part of me thinks that SL's conservative gameplans have purely been focused on gaining the win, so that he can put a 100% win ratio on his CV for the job application (which I believe are due in now/soon...?). I'm hoping now that he explores different avenues of more exciting rugby. Still though, I remain confident in him and his abilities.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Anywhere from first place to fourth is right and the poll should really reflect those possibilities.

Yep, otherwise this is the kind of poll that westernosprey/gnollbeast/maestegmafia etc would post. There's no issue with anyone posting that they don't think England will do that well in the rest of the tournament, but to then put together a limited poll with options missing (and including 6th which is very, very unlikely) just smacks of wummery.

Sixth is not only unlikely, it is in actual fact impossible.

biltongbek wrote:
Sixth is not only unlikely, it is in actual fact impossible.

I wasn't going to try and work it out with my maths ability!

Looks like the poll is now reflecting an actual possible set of outcomes rather than just those the OP hoped for.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
Sixth is not only unlikely, it is in actual fact impossible.

I wasn't going to try and work it out with my maths ability!

Looks like the poll is now reflecting an actual possible set of outcomes rather than just those the OP hoped for.

No maths necessary mate. Italy and scotland will have to win all three their remianing matches and england will have to lose all three theirs.

I voted first just for the heck of it, now I see I am not the only one.

biltongbek wrote:I voted first just for the heck of it, now I see I am not the only one.

I've just voted 1st too.

I LOVE polls!

england are doing very well. 2 from 2 with their fresh new team building confidence from winning going into the last three and toughest matches. i expect them to dispatch the so-far lucky welsh and then to build their confidence further alowing them to over come france. then comes the grand slam showdown with ireland. who would bet against england to complete the grand slam, phase one of their claim for the web ellis in four years time. i'd say they have one hand on the cup already.

or they could lose their last 3 games.

The cancellation of the Irish /French match really helps Wales and England , Wales will play them after they have played 3 consecutive weekends ( hopefully suffering from a defeat from England ) and England play France after 2 consecutive weekends and Ireland after 3 so there should be some fatigue there + injuries. So a 2nd place should be realistic. Head says Wales are the best so far but one can live and hope

As things stand at present, I reckon the Welsh and French will probably be too much for us. I wasn't that impressed by the Irish the only time we've seen them - superb game for the neutral though it was. If they haven't perked up a lot by the time we play them, I reckon they are our best chance of third place. Wales - not impossible but I reckon they've got the edge on us this year. France - like others, I reckon they've pootled along in second gear so far and could do horrible things to any other side in the 6Ns. But you can't predict the French.

So yeah - anywhere from 1st to 4th. But 4th is much the most likely.

Glad to see 1st is the top answer now

Well played everyone

Rory
That's our Englsh arrogance at work

Don't worry I voted for yas too

This poll is due to be closed as it has been edited (which was against the house rules and done by a biased English moderator we believe). I included the realistic options to prevent any biased voting. Now the unrealsitic vote options have been illegally edited in it reflects badly on the poll. I generously included 3rd place as an option, when in reality England are more likely to finish 4th to 6th.

So I hope you are happy, the ones that cried wum like a bunch of babies.

Wow Morgannwg comes out swinging. Can't wait to see how this pans out

'Welsh WUM blames ref shocker!'

I'm not swinging, I am just baffled at how a moderator could have the nerve to edit my poll to suit themself. No matter. It has been reported and action is to be taken to prevent such a misdemeanour from ever happening again.

ha haaa good WUM voters surely the graph is upside-down

But it wasn't edited to suit the moderator, it was edited to show the possible Six Nations placings England could achieve. Otherwise it's like asking 'what's your favourite day of the week?' and not including Thursday because you don't like Thursday.

what were the original options? i suspect 1st was missing. correct?

dogtooth wrote:what were the original options? i suspect 1st was missing. correct?

and second. 6th was included though, despite it being nearly impossible for England to finish sixth...

I ignored the poll earlier but replied cos Morg raised some valid-ish points. I've just voted.......1st...of course!

Morgannwg wrote:This poll is due to be closed as it has been edited (which was against the house rules and done by a biased English moderator we believe). I included the realistic options to prevent any biased voting. Now the unrealsitic vote options have been illegally edited in it reflects badly on the poll. I generously included 3rd place as an option, when in reality England are more likely to finish 4th to 6th.

So I hope you are happy, the ones that cried wum like a bunch of babies.

The moderator is female and Welsh.

The realistic options were included from Morg's perspective which I had clearly stated. The thread is set to be closed because of an illegal action taken and I may see if I can get around to starting a new one.

Don't bother.

Morgannwg wrote:The realistic options were included from Morg's perspective which I had clearly stated. The thread is set to be closed because of an illegal action taken and I may see if I can get around to starting a new one.

Why? So you can make yourself look even more stupid?

This is brilliant!

WUM Reports Own Thread After "Illegal Action" On Poll Shocker!!!

Dearie me, there is a lot of people getting wound up at the fact the poll was illegally edited.

Illegally? Are you sure?