Will England 'do a Wales' on Wales?

First topic message reminder :

I was interested to hear the comments of Ben Foden this morning on how England plan to counter Wales at Twickenham this Saturday:

"If you look at all the games where Wales have broken through and scored tries it is because someone has gone high on a big strong ball-carrier. It has enabled them either to get the offload going or carry a bit farther and put someone else into space. We'll be looking to chop them low and get them down to the ground quickly.

"We don't want to be getting into an arm-wrestle with guys like Roberts and North and Jonathan Davies. They're very strong ball-carriers and they can shrug you off. We don't want to be giving them easy metres so we need to be going in low and chopping them nice and early. We need to get our back-row into the game as well. If we're chopping these guys down before the gain line we can really utilise that sort of field position."

(LINK: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/22/ben-foden-england-wales-six-nations )

Take yourself back to last year's World Cup. Ireland, fresh from beating the Wallabies and seeing off Italy, were widely seen as favourites for their quarter-final clash with Wales. Ireland's ball-carrying back row of Stephen Ferris, Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip had made a huge impression - literally - on the tournament with their tackle-busting runs and they were tipped to do the same against Wales. As it happened, Wales's masterstroke was to return to the almost-forgotten art of tackling low; rather than going high in the tackle and risking being bounced off by the Irish back row, Wales took their legs and stopped them in their tracks.

Will Saturday's match see England performing the same trick against Wales and giving them a taste of their own World Cup medicine?

miteyironpaw wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I would not be suprised to see Wales draw the English forwards to the touchline and then attack the opposite wing as i feel Strettle and Ashton are not the best defenders and if Wales get some pace in the attack, those two may be found wanting.

I like the sound of that!

Unfortunately "drawing the English forwards to the touchline" is called a "Lineout" and the chances are, England wil lhave the ball directly afterwards.

Otherwise, if you are suggesting that Wales will run laterally back and forth across the field and try to wait for gaps to open up, then that's exactly what Wales have been doing in attack since 1984 and nobody is fooled by it anymore.

Sorry mitey does "drawing the English forwards towards the touchline" work better for you?

eirebilly wrote:A well organised defence will not be stretched with a player going high and a player going low in the tackle. Timing is the key.

I'll tell you how it's a stretching exercise to have two players bouncing on one big guy. Nothing happens in isolation. You don't think about theory in individual segments - the game is a series of segments combined.

Those two players have to get to their feet quickly and reset themselves for the next onslaught. The next onslaught is also big and fast and has already momentum built (Welsh style)...another two players used up...another two players getting to their feet to reset.... already (Welsh way - quick recycle, quick assault) the first big back is hitting the defensive line at speed again or the ball has been quickly passed across the field for a one on one.

Nothing lasts eternally and they will find the moment for a one on one. When they find the one on one, it's back to the previous conditions of what the one defender concentrates on - arms or feet?

Well, take you pick, lad. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't because it's virtually certain wales will have quick and creative support chasing the ball carrier.

It's not theory, by the way. Just watch Wales play. Gatland isn't joking when he says height/biggness, fitness and speed. And yep, defences are stretched because the design is to stretch them so that the can create the holy grail of a one on one.

Well eirebilly I see Stuart Lancaster has taken on board your suggestions. Yet more proof 6Ns coaches are avid readers of these boards.

Don't know enough about Farrell myself to have a real opinion. Do note that his attacking flair is in doubt and with reason given Sarries' style. Glad to see Manu there though I'm not 100% sure of his fitness. Morgan and Dickson earned their spot. Glad to see Youngs knows he's not quite making it happen and is working on it.

Well, win or lose I like this young side. Wales still favourites and still potentially able to do a real number on us. But it seems the England set up have done everything they can to give us the best possible chance, and you can't ask more than that.

I agree that Wales deploy these tactics very well, the best in the NH at doing them but i also believe that you can defend Wales out of a match if you get the tactics spot on.

Can you please try not to ruin this thread, Mitey.

just to be pedantic, wales tactics against ireland in the wc were to 'go low' as many have said, but a second tackler almost always came in and went high to wrap up the arms/ball stopping the offload and ensuring the attacker fell into the tackle area on their terms not his own, thats why the breakdown was such a nightmare for Ireland that day, the breakdown was being run on welsh terms....

taking these guys legs will still let them offload, if 2 tacklers take the player down each time, England really need to challenge at the breakdown or Wales will have the numbers, pace and precision to hit them out wide if they generate any quick ball.

To be fair Cowshot, it was very obvious what the choice had to be. It was always going to be down to Farrell and Flood as to who started this match as Manu and Barritt are Englands best centres right now and either one of them would have been a huge miss.

Very close game to call now i feel.

Backline play is pretty simple in reality as any junior grade player knows. The job of every attacker is to commit a man and take him out of the game, and then deliver the ball to another back line player. If that cycle continues, then provided you don't run out of space, it means that the attacking team always has an overlap of one, or the defense has to leave a space behind the defensive line for a territory gaining kick. So attacks fail when the ball carrier is tackled, or his options to off load or move to space to find support are shut down. The two fundamental starting points for defense is either not commit at all preventing the overlap, by drifting or to prevent the offload and offensive recycling by rushing. This is just simple simple basic stuff that everybody knows.


In past weeks, Wales have rushed well, dropped their FH back along with the FB to cover the kicking options. Again just basic execution done well, no rocket science, no mystery aura, no Welsh superpowers.

But despite an 11 year old knowing this in theory - England by contrast have been guilty of not committing anyone in the defensive line before off-loading, or creating the overlap and then immediately shutting themselves down by skip-passing the overlap men and running into touch. For England to return to the height of their attacking threat they have to find a way to get outside the rushing envelope where the space is and ensure that every man in attack does the basics and commits at least one defender. In the event that Wales pack the defensive line then they have ot make sure they get the ball to a kicking option to take the space available and that the kick is well executed. Conversely, we've been drifting in defence which is fine and valid, but that means that Welsh space must be shut down and the players shepherded back towards the turn over targets, or the touch line. So far, England's execution has involved standing off and backing up, giving the ball carriers time and supporting players time and space, and not shutting down any options at all. If you're going to do that then you can't miss any tackles at all when the line is attacked and this unfortunately hasn't been the case.

Generally if you employ a rush defence you take a guy up high at chest level simply because you´re rushing up on the attacking line. If the opposition come from depth then you have longer to adjust and often have time to best sum up the situation.

The problem with going low against Welsh players like North, Davies or Roberts is you´re lessening the surface area you have to obstruct them. Go down too low and they can lift the legs and trample over you. Go up too high and they have the power to power through you.

To stop a big guy often involves getting inertia behind you. If you are flat footed and put your head down then like North did to McFadden they can bump you off and smash through you because they have momentum behind them. But if you´re coming up to meet them then you have added force behind you and are able to use that to drag them down. That´s the key: wrapping them up and getting them to ground. If you go at their legs then they go to ground but if they have support runners around them they have time to get the pass away because they are tall men.

So to me the key to meeting the Welsh backs is aggression and not to be flat-footed and wait for them to come to you as they have the power to run through you. You must have a flat line and rush up to meet them before the advantage line as this Welsh team is dangerous with momentum behind them. Stop them from advancing and the defensive line is easier to hold. Against Ireland in the dying minutes, although the Welsh advance from their 22 was admirable, the absence of BOD was felt in terms of closing down space. The Irish backs were not pressing enough in their defensive line.

Does England use a rush defense ? Its hard at the moment to say how England 'play' , they dont have a style

England have been mostly drifting so far in the 6N. I suspect the massive rearrangement is going to cause problems for England. Tuilagi tended to play a rush defense on his own for England and that is going to put a lot of pressure on. Will Farrel/Barrit have sufficient presence and authority to keep the line? because I don't fancy the chances of Strettle and Foden scrambling to cut down Cuthbert and North. Or will the entire defensive system be reorgansised this week to catch Wales out?

It could all be irrelevant if we play a controlled game down the tram lines, unless there is major renovation to the Welsh lineout which the selection suggests otherwise, Wales may not have any ball to attack with.

munkian wrote:Does England use a rush defense ? Its hard at the moment to say how England 'play' , they dont have a style
Last edited by munkian on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Speeling)

Munkian

"then that's exactly what Wales have been doing in attack since 1984 and nobody is fooled by it anymore"

1988, if you don't mind

eirebilly wrote:

munkian wrote:Does England use a rush defense ? Its hard at the moment to say how England 'play' , they dont have a style
Last edited by munkian on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Speeling)

Munkian

That was intentional damnit ! Don't make me bring up the WC game....

munkian wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

munkian wrote:Does England use a rush defense ? Its hard at the moment to say how England 'play' , they dont have a style
Last edited by munkian on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Speeling)

Munkian

That was intentional damnit ! Don't make me bring up the WC game....

What World Cup game?

There's a few to chose from

munkian wrote:There's a few to chose from

Give me 30 minutes to think up a funny retort...

If i cant then meet me out side in 35mins

The forecast is good and the weather down here in SW London is warm and sunny at the moment. Never seen this England side play in decent conditions! More unknown territory...

So should be good running conditions. Perhaps we will be using the threat of Tuilagi to pull defences up and chip or grub our way through? To me, a classic way to attack big guys is to get them turning. Yes, you've got to pull the FB out of position, but there are ways to do that. Be interesting to see.

Cowshot wrote:Never seen this England side play in decent conditions! More unknown territory...

Not this again!

There was nothing wrong with conditions at Murrayfield! It wasn't even raining!

But it was Flip cold. <= brass

Cold in winter? Heaven forbid!

Yeah but it was Edinburgh cold

Lucky eat a Snickers

Glas a du wrote:But it was Flip cold. <= brass

It's 17 degrees outside here, it's actually warmer than any day last summer. If this keeps up, I can see a few ready made excuses for any unexpectedly beaten visiting team.

English cold has nothing on Welsh cold. Or rain, its always Bar Steward raining

On it's day, welsh weather can beat any one else's weather.

Glas a du wrote:Lucky eat a Snickers

miteyironpaw wrote:Erm - isn't "going low" on a tackler the best way to enable them to offload? Surely stopping an offload is all about wrapping up the ball with the player? or cutting off his offloading options by getting men between the ball carrier and his supporting runners (or subtly obstructing the supporting players New Zealand style?)

Yup - tackle low you get tehm to ground but allow the offfload or them to set up a ruck. go high you stop this - but might get handed off.

A net and a monkey.

Net thrown over North - hands and feet wrapped up... monkey sent into the net to extract ball.

1 monkey against North?? Dont make me call the RSPCA.

I'd be more likely to go with the army of flying monkeys from the wizard of oz.