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England vs Wales

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Yoda
Heaf
Duty281
carpet baboon
Noble-Surfer
RiscaGame
Poorfour
mikey_dragon
Collapse2005
king_carlos
formerly known as Sam
Recwatcher16
lostinwales
Barney McGrew did it
nlpnlp
Mr Bounce
Geordie
No 7&1/2
mountain man
doctor_grey
TAFKA The Oracle
bsando
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England vs Wales Empty England vs Wales

Post by bsando Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:42 pm

England vs Wales

Date: Saturday 10th February 2024
Twickenham, London
Kick-off: 4:45pm
Referee: James Doleman (New Zealand)

TV Coverage: Live on ITV and S4C (UK) and RTÉ (ROI)

Teams

England

15-Steward, 14-Freeman, 13-Slade, 12-Dingwall, 11-Daly, 10-Ford, 9-Mitchell; 1-Stuart, 2-Marler, 3-George (capt), 4-Itoje, 5-Chessum, 6-Roots, 7-Underhill, 8-Earl
Replacements: 16-Dan, 17-Genge, 18-Cole, 19-Coles, 20-Cunningham-South, 21-Care, 22-Smith, 23-Feyi-Waboso

Wales

Winnett; Dyer, North, Tompkins, Adams; Lloyd, Williams; G Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachowski, Griffin, Rowlands, Basham, Hardy, Evans, Grady.


Last edited by bsando on Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:45 pm

Might as well post my thoughts on the Wales team here. A shameless copy and paste of my post from the Wales thread! I’m just being lazy!

Many of the changes I wanted are in. But a couple I’m not sure about. I think North offers so much more than Watkin at 13 so glad he’s in. I like the Tompkins North partnership, and North is much more prolific than Watkin on the scoreboard. I thought Adams looked injured and was heavily strapped so might have liked to see Mason Grady on the wing. But he’s a great option off the bench. The halfback replacements from last week have played themselves into the first team, but I’m surprised to see Gareth Davies completed dropped. Hardy isn’t a great alternative. Surprised also to see Domachowski dropped to the bench but Gats does rate Gareth Thomas and the Ospreys scrum has been good this season. Dee in on the back of a good replacement showing last week so no arguments there. Assiratti for Brown who is apparently injured. Rowlands on the bench is a shocker for me. He’s consistently one of our top performers so I’d have him in over Beard. But it does strengthen our bench. Good back row. Reffell and Wainwright came good in the end and had awesome games last week. Mann rewarded for his good showing off the bench too.

Bench is mixed - I love Basham but he’s not been in good form or discipline for ages. A card waiting to happen! Please prove me wrong. Cai Evans - nah! We must have better in Wales surely? Grady, Rowlands, Domachowski are strong replacements. Elias is a risk if we are looking to close out a game, or pinch a win, and his darts go wonky. Wasn’t great last week.


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Post by doctor_grey Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:30 pm

Headline from today's Telegraph:
England to pick same team for Wales clash for first time in Steve Borthwick’s tenure

In the article it states it is expected to be the same XV. If true, I hope IFW gets more than a pittance of time to show what he's got. Also CCS and Fin to get some more minutes.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:18 am

Well if that's the case no surprise but a disappointment.
Agree on time on pitch for subs.
I mean does Daly really merit starting again or even bench?

Oh well.

*Team announcement at 1pm according to Radio 4.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:38 am

Which winger feels more lucky then? Adams for the ball in the crowd or Daly for his trip?

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am

I'm not calling for Daly to be replaced for a stupid trip, more the fact I think there are better alternatives.

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:14 am

Same team...

Litterally could be Wales or England win by a few points. Both rebuilding...

From an England perspective...several players need to up their game this week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:24 am

mountain man wrote:I'm not calling for Daly to be replaced for a stupid trip, more the fact I think there are better alternatives.

There have been for years. It just summed up both last week.

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:23 am

mountain man wrote:I'm not calling for Daly to be replaced for a stupid trip, more the fact I think there are better alternatives.

Daly actually had a couple of good moments, but overshadowed at times by not so good.

I expect him to be there on Saturday...its about consistency ..building up the understanding of the new tactics.

But even then i suspect he may be on borrowed time.

This is not SB's desired squad i would suspect...and hes probably got an eye on a few of the young kids coming through aswell...hoping they make the grade in the Prem quicker than others.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:29 am

Well if this is not Borthwicks desired squad why isn't he picking those who are?

Apart from those unavailable through injury or being in France he has picked the players he thinks are best. I doubt he thinks there are better alternatives but just not picking them. That would appear perverse.
Unless I'm not grasping your meaning.

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:01 am

mountain man wrote:Well if this is not Borthwicks desired squad why isn't he picking those who are?

Apart from those unavailable through injury or being in France he has picked the players he thinks are best. I doubt he thinks there are better alternatives but just not picking them. That would appear perverse.
Unless I'm not grasping your meaning.

I think there are players who arent up to scratch in certain postions and there are no alternative options..i think there ARE in the kids...and hes probably praying they come good.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:04 am

So in that case he is picking who he thinks is the best team currently.

Would he pick any players who are now in/going to France? Marchant and Ludlum I'd say are two who would/should get into 23. Some calling for Willis and Mercer but dunno, I think backrow there are good enough players available when fit.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:24 am

Borthwick is happy to tow the rfu line re France so he can't exactly complain in that front.

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:37 am

mountain man wrote:So in that case he is picking who he thinks is the best team currently.

Would he pick any players who are now in/going to France? Marchant and Ludlum I'd say are two who would/should get into 23. Some calling for Willis and Mercer but dunno, I think backrow there are good enough players available when fit.

Yes but not his ideal team

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:41 am

No one ever has their ideal team then. You're talking fantasy rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:00 pm

Same team.

Genge fit enough for the bench.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:02 pm

Good Genge fit, not so good exact same starting team

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:06 pm

To be fair to the players mm, there's plenty of change re defence. A SA coach said that it took them around 14 games to get used to it properly. Attack is, well, erm.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:11 pm

Poor little George Ford is going to be clattered into a few times. He will be targeted, as will Dingwall.

Let's hope the tackling is better this time.

Looking forward to seeing CCS rampaging around again.

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Post by nlpnlp Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:19 pm

England will hope to dominate an inexperienced bunch of Welsh props in the scrum and rely on a Borthwick drilled lineout to dominate possession.  On form I would take Reffell above any of the English backrow players and think he will have a bit of field day with turnovers.  The back lines on both teams look pretty meh and unless one side has a stinker, I don't see either side cutting the other apart.  I wouldn't be surprised if the result comes down to who takes their kick points best and I would expect a Ford / Smith combination to win that battle.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:28 pm

I think Ford is used to being targeted. A smaller guy will always be targeted. Fin will be as well. But he is bigger and is a pretty good defender, especially as a 10, and a young one to boot. I think Fin was credited with 6 tackles, no misses in his 15 minutes.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:29 pm

Two average but evenly matched sides. I fear for this England side this year, the back line in particular has gone backwards – fortunately our start has been against the other 2 mediocre sides. And a Wales game at HQ may give England a slight advantage – winner takes 4th spot. If Wales lose, it could be the spoon for them.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:33 pm

About 50% chance of rain for the match too. Can't imagine it will be very free flowing from England. Think the first 15 may be more important than normal. Neither team will want to be chasing.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:52 pm

Tomas Williams be sniping so Eng backrow need to be sharp.
Ford and Dingwall better spent some time on defence this week, they'll be getting plenty of practise on Saturday.

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Post by lostinwales Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:58 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Two average but evenly matched sides. I fear for this England side this year, the back line in particular has gone backwards – fortunately our start has been against the other 2 mediocre sides. And a Wales game at HQ may give England a slight advantage – winner takes 4th spot. If Wales lose, it could be the spoon for them.

Freeman.

More attacking intent.

We'll see

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Post by Recwatcher16 Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:00 pm

Wales want to play sevens rugby and last week the Scots duly obliged in the second half. Ford and George won't go down that path.
The Welsh fly half is talented but very green but Tompkins outside him will be key and not convinced by Dingwall. Slade is match fit and on form, George North is neither so also could be the difference in the game. All sides this year look to be even more focused on getting the ball to edge between OC and wing. However England's kicking game will surely be superior with Ford and Slade and then go after the Welsh lineout.
As always, interesting to watch and my favourite game of the 6N.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair to the players mm, there's plenty of change re defence. A SA coach said that it took them around 14 games to get used to it properly. Attack is, well, erm.

Some continuity might well help both attack and defence. We've definitely changed this up on both sides of the ball and are looking to play a lot more, our wings touched the ball more last week than they did cumulatively last 6N. Hopefully we see more cohesion than last week.

Wales will come out fighting because they always do and the are playing England so it'll be a tough game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:19 pm

Borthwick is talking up the Wales team anyway.

And we'll be looking to improve the defence as it was a promising start. He's said we've now had 5 training sessions on the defence in total so expects it to be better.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:28 pm

God the pre match questions are gentle aren't they.

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Post by king_carlos Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:15 pm

Wales played a lot off 9 last weekend. England with Felix Jones coming in have adopted a very aggressive blitz defence more akin to what the Boks use. An attack running off their SH vs fringe defence approaching kamikaze line speed could be a messy proposition at times for attack and defence.

Whilst Wales largely attack the breakdown very well and England still need to improve their retention of ruck ball. That again could be messy.

I'd hope for England to have the upper hand at set-piece even with Beard back though.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:57 pm

Not sure if anyone else heard this on the BBC podcast too but Wales have only ever once scored a try in the first half of an England Wales game in the six nations in Twickenham. All their other 18 tries in twickenham have been in the 2nd half. They have also never lead at half time in Twickenham in the six nations.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:58 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Not sure if anyone else heard this on the BBC podcast too but Wales have only ever once scored a try in the first half of an England Wales game in the six nations in Twickenham. All their other 18 tries in twickenham have been in the 2nd half. They have also never lead at half time in Twickenham in the six nations.

Well, considering we’ve only beaten them twice at Twickers since the start of the six nations, I’m not really surprised by the above info Smile

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Post by mountain man Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:38 am

Some of the historical stats are interesting and often surprising but relevance to future games pretty thin I think.

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Post by Collapse2005 Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:16 am

Martin Williams being the only wales first half try scorer

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:28 am

I think the England team is unchanged, but would it be possible to have it posted here/in the OP? Thanks.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:32 am

If Wales wanted to add a physical advantage up front, and we do need to do so, then Rowlands or Jenkins at 6 would have made sense. I still think Mann is just an average club player and he does look a bit skinny... Presumably he was another open-side at U18s so technically we're still playing three fetchers in the back-row. Jenkins would be a good 6, he always seems to be high up in the tackling stats which is what Gatland always wanted from his blind-side plus he is a lineout option.

I guess another advantage we could have sought was to include Rhys Carre but for whatever reason he is still out of favour. The on-going selections are still strange.

The replacement halfbacks from Wales have the potential to possibly be the worst we've ever fielded.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:58 am

mikey_dragon wrote:If Wales wanted to add a physical advantage up front, and we do need to do so, then Rowlands or Jenkins at 6 would have made sense. I still think Mann is just an average club player and he does look a bit skinny... Presumably he was another open-side at U18s so technically we're still playing three fetchers in the back-row. Jenkins would be a good 6, he always seems to be high up in the tackling stats which is what Gatland always wanted from his blind-side plus he is a lineout option.

I guess another advantage we could have sought was to include Rhys Carre but for whatever reason he is still out of favour. The on-going selections are still strange.

The replacement halfbacks from Wales have the potential to possibly be the worst we've ever fielded.

Looking at the packs and the weather, yes you wouldn't think it be overly long before we see Rowlands in the second half. Your back row I like the look of a lot, and I think they'll cause problems.

In the spirit of my continuing begrudging congrats to Borthwick when deserved...

Strawbridges impact on attacking rucks has been good, in an area where we've generally been iffy. 97 out 98 were won last week, only losing 1 in the 2nd minute. Time will tell whether that's because it was Italy and perhaps a lack of any sustained width aids that retention. Wales surely target that area very strongly tomorrow.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:04 am

I agree Mikey. Even though I don’t rate Beard very highly, I would have liked to see Beard and Rowlands 2nd row with Daf Jenkins at 6. Keep Reffell and Wainwright 7 and 8 respectively. I think that’s got a decent amount of ballast 4, 5, 6 and then some dynamism 7 and 8. And then Mann off the bench for fresh and youthful back row legs 2nd half. Jenkins into the 2nd row if needed.

Saying that, for all of Beard’s ‘ballast’ I don’t think he does much with it! Don't think he’s much of a carrying option? And I’m not sure who would get a lock bench spot if we started Beard, Jenkins and Rowlands? Squad is looking a bit thin already!

Edit: sorry, I forgot about Teddy Williams as a 2nd row option. So bench would be covered.

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Post by mountain man Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:16 am

Game likely to be decided by front rows, especially if wet as greater chance of knock ons and hence scrums.
I'd say England edge it there.

*just checked and forecast is good for tomorrow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:26 am

mountain man wrote:Game likely to be decided by front rows, especially if wet as greater chance of knock ons and hence scrums.
I'd say England edge it there.

*just checked and forecast is good for tomorrow.

That's massively changed from yesterday! It was 60% chance of heavy showers all through! Dry suits Wales.

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Post by mountain man Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:30 am

Yes I'd say it does suit Wales more being dry.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:28 am

I'm a little worried about the Wales scrum. Not an established and familiar unit (yet). Gareth Thomas should be OK as he's been part of a good Ospreys pack this season. Telling that Gats put him straight back in when available, even though Domachowski had a good game last week. So he's rated by management. He's got his Ospreys team mate (Beard) locking down in the 2nd row so some familiarity there. Dee at hooker is quite small though by international standards. Not sure he's renowned as a scrummaging hooker really. Very mobile and loves a driving maul from a lineout, but question marks over scrummaging. Assiratti on the TH side - very raw still but playing a fair bit for Cardiff. Seems to average around 50 mins a game for them. A decent bench option in Domachowski but Griffin is un-capped so obviously raw and untested. It's gonna be a big test against a much more experienced England pack.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:45 am

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Saying that, for all of Beard’s ‘ballast’ I don’t think he does much with it! Don't think he’s much of a carrying option? And I’m not sure who would get a lock bench spot if we started Beard, Jenkins and Rowlands? Squad is looking a bit thin already!

Edit: sorry, I forgot about Teddy Williams as a 2nd row option. So bench would be covered.

No he doesn't. Beard does some things well but he doesn't appear to be able to hurt people, he also looks slow and appears to not be much of a carrying option. He received the ball 3 metres from the try line against Scotland and was hit backwards. It appears a few have already noticed Beard and I have seen him come in for criticism, but Gatland is offering them outside on Beards behalf. You can tell he's getting desperate.

It's best to forget about Teddy Williams. I don't see him making the step up and he's not great for Cardiff either. Some people, even supposed journalists said 'he made an impact' last weekend, but the stats in fact show the opposite; Seb Davies Mark II

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Post by nlpnlp Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:54 am

With the tackle rules as they are now I don't think the game suits overly tall backrows.  Daf Jenkins was penalised playing for Exeter recently when completing what appeared to be a text book tackle - bent knees, straight back, etc.  It was just the fact that the person he was tackling was a vertically challenged scrum half.  I am not saying that a Reffell or Wainright can't do a high shot, but I think the risk is significantly reduced for them when compared to a Jenkins or Beard.

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Post by Poorfour Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
In the spirit of my continuing begrudging congrats to Borthwick when deserved...

Strawbridges impact on attacking rucks has been good, in an area where we've generally been iffy. 97 out 98 were won last week, only losing 1 in the 2nd minute. Time will tell whether that's because it was Italy and perhaps a lack of any sustained width aids that retention. Wales surely target that area very strongly tomorrow.

The stats they showed during the game last week also had England with a very high sub-2 sec ruck percentage - something like 32%, which at Int level is very good. Wales will make it harder than Italy did, but the clear aim is to keep the ball moving and not allow defences to settle.

I think a lot of aspects of the game worked well for England last week, but the gaps were the ones that counted on the scoreboard: defensive lapses and failure to capitalise in the red zone. You'd hope the former will improve this week but the latter will be a longer term issue.
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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:58 am

nlpnlp wrote:With the tackle rules as they are now I don't think the game suits overly tall backrows.  Daf Jenkins was penalised playing for Exeter recently when completing what appeared to be a text book tackle - bent knees, straight back, etc.  It was just the fact that the person he was tackling was a vertically challenged scrum half.  I am not saying that a Reffell or Wainright can't do a high shot, but I think the risk is significantly reduced for them when compared to a Jenkins or Beard.

France and Ireland have tall a back-row, they've been two of the best in the world for some time now. Willemse (a lock) didn't do too good last Friday but I guess he is South African... boxing

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Post by doctor_grey Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:00 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:With the tackle rules as they are now I don't think the game suits overly tall backrows.  Daf Jenkins was penalised playing for Exeter recently when completing what appeared to be a text book tackle - bent knees, straight back, etc.  It was just the fact that the person he was tackling was a vertically challenged scrum half.  I am not saying that a Reffell or Wainright can't do a high shot, but I think the risk is significantly reduced for them when compared to a Jenkins or Beard.

France and Ireland have tall a back-row, they've been two of the best in the world for some time now. Willemse (a lock) didn't do too good last Friday but I guess he is South African... boxing
And England had Courtney Lawes who almost never seemed (in my memory at least) to get dinged for a high tackle.

edit:  I just read he has played over 350 games. In his career so far? 0 red cards.  So, it can be done.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:21 pm

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
In the spirit of my continuing begrudging congrats to Borthwick when deserved...

Strawbridges impact on attacking rucks has been good, in an area where we've generally been iffy. 97 out 98 were won last week, only losing 1 in the 2nd minute. Time will tell whether that's because it was Italy and perhaps a lack of any sustained width aids that retention. Wales surely target that area very strongly tomorrow.

The stats they showed during the game last week also had England with a very high sub-2 sec ruck percentage - something like 32%, which at Int level is very good. Wales will make it harder than Italy did, but the clear aim is to keep the ball moving and not allow defences to settle.

I think a lot of aspects of the game worked well for England last week, but the gaps were the ones that counted on the scoreboard: defensive lapses and failure to capitalise in the red zone. You'd hope the former will improve this week but the latter will be a longer term issue.

Yeah we didn't much with it all in the end but good to see. I do take those ruck stats with a pinch of salt as the measure is from when the ball is available to being picked up isn't it? You then tend to have a lower time for teams playing narrower, or indeed not making much of a dent. Useful of course but as with others like missed tackles does need the context.

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Post by Poorfour Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yeah we didn't much with it all in the end but good to see. I do take those ruck stats with a pinch of salt as the measure is from when the ball is available to being picked up isn't it? You then tend to have a lower time for teams playing narrower, or indeed not making much of a dent. Useful of course but as with others like missed tackles does need the context.

I don't think so; that would be a pretty pointless thing to measure (unless you want refs to apply the use it rule more firmly). I bedlieve it's from tackle completion to the ball being played
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:46 pm

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yeah we didn't much with it all in the end but good to see. I do take those ruck stats with a pinch of salt as the measure is from when the ball is available to being picked up isn't it? You then tend to have a lower time for teams playing narrower, or indeed not making much of a dent. Useful of course but as with others like missed tackles does need the context.

I don't think so; that would be a pretty pointless thing to measure (unless you want refs to apply the use it rule more firmly). I bedlieve it's from tackle completion to the ball being played

Bar some different words what is the real difference there? Ball is available the second you place it immediately...

Semantics perhaps? But is still easy to throw a pass 1 yard and for it to be placed and thrown 1 yard than it is to spin it out past 3 defenders and for the SH to get there etc? A very low time suggests you're not moving the ball or perhaps stretching the defence quite as much?

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