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England vs Wales

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England vs Wales - Page 4 Empty England vs Wales

Post by bsando Wed 07 Feb 2024, 7:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

England vs Wales

Date: Saturday 10th February 2024
Twickenham, London
Kick-off: 4:45pm
Referee: James Doleman (New Zealand)

TV Coverage: Live on ITV and S4C (UK) and RTÉ (ROI)

Teams

England

15-Steward, 14-Freeman, 13-Slade, 12-Dingwall, 11-Daly, 10-Ford, 9-Mitchell; 1-Stuart, 2-Marler, 3-George (capt), 4-Itoje, 5-Chessum, 6-Roots, 7-Underhill, 8-Earl
Replacements: 16-Dan, 17-Genge, 18-Cole, 19-Coles, 20-Cunningham-South, 21-Care, 22-Smith, 23-Feyi-Waboso

Wales

Winnett; Dyer, North, Tompkins, Adams; Lloyd, Williams; G Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachowski, Griffin, Rowlands, Basham, Hardy, Evans, Grady.


Last edited by bsando on Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:34 pm

Wouldn't have kicked that.

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Post by Heaf Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:34 pm

Looked like the SH knocked on there

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:35 pm

Wales are stupid, why are they always kicking it away? Gatland’s selections and tactics of course, wish he would go away now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:35 pm

That's a pen to Wales.

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Post by Heaf Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:37 pm

No different to the Steward challenge

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:38 pm

Wow. That was awful. They actually look pleased as well.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:38 pm

Christ, England made hard work of that.

Another poor game. Been a woeful start to the Six Nations this year, in terms of overall standard of play from all teams.

Oh well. Time for Italy to get their usual weekly loss tomorrow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:38 pm

Heaf wrote:No different to the Steward challenge

You don't think it was a pen?

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:40 pm

Steward superb. England so much better in second half as needed to be. CCS has to start. What a difference he makes.

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Post by Heaf Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:40 pm

Nope

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Post by Cumbrian Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:43 pm

Said it before and I'll say it again, games against Wales are horrible. I never feel comfortable.

Fair play to the young Welsh lads, they fronted up.

England still look like a team trying to learn a new system.
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Post by Cumbrian Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. That was awful. They actually look pleased as well.

Probably relief?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:46 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. That was awful. They actually look pleased as well.

Probably relief?

Bloody awful.

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Post by Geordie Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:46 pm

Ben Earl MOTM eh?

Just saying...

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:48 pm

Second half was so much better though. Had to be and to go 2 yellows down and 14-8 at half time a deserved win. Was it good? No but a million times better than loss.

In my opinion.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:49 pm

Poor choice wasn't it. Itoje and Steward were better. As was said in the commentary given because he scored a try when down to 13.

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:50 pm

Steward mom for me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:50 pm

mountain man wrote:Second half was so much better though. Had to be and to go 2 yellows down and 14-8 at half time a deserved win. Was it good? No but a million times better than loss.

In my opinion.

But very easily could have lost it. So do you really switch from yeah good to my god awful from what could have been a bit of luck or skill or Wales finishing that chance in the 2nd half?

Wales kicking it away last 5 mins bloody hell.

Look at the 2 squads and say with hand on your heart this should be another no bonus point win for England.

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Post by carpet baboon Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:53 pm

Some good individual performances from both sides, but both teams were pretty poor

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Post by RiscaGame Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:54 pm

Well it’s more than I could’ve expected LBP wise really, but benches did make all of the difference. Wales not really managing the 13 men period didn’t overly help, but England’s energy off the bench was the key difference for me.

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Second half was so much better though. Had to be and to go 2 yellows down and 14-8 at half time a deserved win. Was it good? No but a million times better than loss.

In my opinion.

But very easily could have lost it. So do you really switch from yeah good to my god awful from what could have been a bit of luck or skill or Wales finishing that chance in the 2nd half?

Wales kicking it away last 5 mins bloody hell.

Look at the 2 squads and say with hand on your heart this should be another no bonus point win for England.

But that's rugby at top level. Pressure etc. England were pretty awful first half and better in second. They won so that's it

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Post by Yoda Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Poor choice wasn't it. Itoje and Steward were better. As was said in the commentary given because he scored a try when down to 13.

Tommy reffell for me, kept Wales in it when we actually started to strong some phases together. The last turnover was a thing of beauty. Carried back by two England ruckers yet still pulled the ball out. Well done Wales youngsters real dog out there. England meh you can't just be gym monkeys and expect to win just by being stronger than your oppo. Drop Daly and Slade as I thought they were toffee. Slade butchered a 3-1, awful.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:55 pm

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Second half was so much better though. Had to be and to go 2 yellows down and 14-8 at half time a deserved win. Was it good? No but a million times better than loss.

In my opinion.

But very easily could have lost it. So do you really switch from yeah good to my god awful from what could have been a bit of luck or skill or Wales finishing that chance in the 2nd half?

Wales kicking it away last 5 mins bloody hell.

Look at the 2 squads and say with hand on your heart this should be another no bonus point win for England.

But that's rugby at top level. Pressure etc. England were pretty awful first half and better in second. They won so that's it

So you're happy now. But if they'd got a rightful pen from the Daly pen off tackling on the floor you'd be unhappy? Is it really that black and white?


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Post by RiscaGame Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:57 pm

That’s about the Ford charge down law apparently

https://x.com/michaelnewbury/status/1756366545423339928?s=46&t=QTjaCTlko4FooiPzKxqE6w


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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 6:57 pm

Christ you are hard work! No I'm not happy but glad England won. You though will only be happy when they lose so you can say told you so, Borthwick out etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:01 pm

mountain man wrote:Christ you are hard work! No I'm not happy but glad England won. You though will only be happy when they lose so you can say told you so, Borthwick out etc.

I'd be really happy if we played well tbh. I don't mind holding my hands up and saying we entertained. I didn't feel entertained on the whole. Defence was decent overall. Attack rubbish. Boring.

The match reminded me slightly of that France match late in 2020 when they sent a B team we won and it felt a bit flat.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:02 pm

England still very disjointed and it doesn't take too much pressure for England to default to a kicking game. Wales just looked a bit green.

SH refs are really woeful with the decisions they don't take with players offside and off their feet and clueless with scrums penalizing the result rather than the cause. The lineout has become interesting with the gap being closed by defensive lines and attacking teams much more obviously throwing down their line as the SH refs don't penalise this "smart" tactic. Wales always throw bodies into rucks at all angles to slow the ball and it worked a fair few times too. Cunningham-South looks a fantastic athlete.

We are stuck with SH refs, as unfortunately there appears to be a dearth of NH refs.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:06 pm

Earl, Mitchel, Steward and Ford very good today. I thought Chessum was good too despite the YC.

Good to see the conversion kick clarified. I didn’t see it at first but from the other angle he moved in a direction, which is the law.


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Post by lostinwales Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:06 pm

Daly was actually good, as was Slade. What was annoying is that despite everything Wales did manufacture opportunities for their wingers and we didn't. I think Freeman got one pass all game.

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:12 pm

Dingwall also had a better game but England still missing far too many tackles.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:19 pm

Well, England top the also-rans table, just Wal/Ita to decide bottom. Not to be sniffed at, I guess, but how mediocre have we become in just a few years. Not sure Eng, Wales or Italy are going to win another game. (I know, I know - Wal/Ita will be a draw).
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:25 pm

lostinwales wrote:Daly was actually good, as was Slade. What was annoying is that despite everything Wales did manufacture opportunities for their wingers and we didn't. I think Freeman got one pass all game.

You'll hear this week that england continued their expansive approach and they were happy at how it continues to develop.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:30 pm

mountain man wrote:Dingwall also had a better game but England still missing far too many tackles.

Stats say 86% success for us and 83% for Wales

England with 61% of the territory and 43 % of the possession.

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:31 pm

Theo Dan deserves a mention, he was excellent when he came on, huge energy and impact.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Daly was actually good, as was Slade. What was annoying is that despite everything Wales did manufacture opportunities for their wingers and we didn't. I think Freeman got one pass all game.

You'll hear this week that england continued their expansive approach and they were happy at how it continues to develop.

There was more ambition than last year, and much of the kicking was really good. Attacking was a bit disjointed, with Reffell making a huge difference. Very noticeable how England's best periods coincided with Reffell disappearing

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:37 pm

Defence is still not there. Missed tackle stats be interesting reading.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 7:52 pm

It's 4 tries in 2 lost.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 10 Feb 2024, 8:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's 4 tries in 2 lost.

We have conceded? 3 last week 2 this

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Post by Geordie Sat 10 Feb 2024, 8:21 pm

Things to continue fixing .....absolutely.
Players to return/ find form...hopefully
Players still with a ? Against them....... Yes
Do they have a fighting winning mentality. YES

Onward to Scotland.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Feb 2024, 9:27 pm

3 losses now to come. Was hoping for a 5 point loss to Scotland,15 to Ireland and 20 to France. Fingers crossed we continue to see this improvement.....!

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Post by lostinwales Sat 10 Feb 2024, 9:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:3 losses now to come. Was hoping for a 5 point loss to Scotland,15 to Ireland and 20 to France. Fingers crossed we continue  to see this improvement.....!

France aren't all that at the moment, although there is always the danger that they'll rediscover their mojo. Ireland is obviously a lost cause. Scotland? Who knows. They have a great backline but are beginning to scrape the barrel in the forwards. Don't think they are mentally in a better place than us either.

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Post by mountain man Sat 10 Feb 2024, 9:35 pm

3 matches to come. Whether that's 1 2 or 3 losses or even 0 is yet to be known. If I knew result of a sporting contest prior to it taking place it would lose it's attraction.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat 10 Feb 2024, 9:47 pm

Just back in from watching the game.

Well done England clap. Thought we had you there for a while, but it wasn’t to be.

Wales……Well, it seemed like Gats started his finishers from last week and then had no finishers this week! I’ve got such mixed emotions. On the one hand it was great to see youngsters stepping up, and in some cases doing well. But on the other hand, it was clear that there was a gulf between the two sides across the squads. It was very similar in ways to the U20s game last night. Lots of plucky Wales stuff at times but overall we were struggling against a bigger and more powerful set of forwards. England to their credit were up so quick in the blitz (my one eye reckons illegally at times Smile ) but we only managed to cope with it occasionally, e.g. creating he Mann try with some nice inside passing at the end of the first half. But generally the blitz just marched us back 10 meters a time each phase. 2nd half we hardly fired a shot at all. Did we even score 2nd half?

Anyway, congrats England. Wales now on 3 points which, on reflection, is not so bad considering our rebuild and the fact we have lost 2 from 2 so far. Sad

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Post by Geordie Sat 10 Feb 2024, 10:48 pm

mountain man wrote:3 matches to come. Whether that's 1 2 or 3 losses or even 0 is yet to be known. If I knew result of a sporting contest prior to it taking place it would lose it's attraction.

I'd be a billionaire....

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 10 Feb 2024, 11:14 pm

I watched with my Rugby club and opinions about the teams and players were all over the place.  My thoughts were these were two mediocre teams trying and frequently struggling to find themselves.  The scoreline is probably a decent reflection of the teams, both the points scored and the spread between the teams.  

I thought the two best players on the pitch were Reffell and Aaron Wainwright.  Also thought Rio Dyer was just a step or two away from a break most of the match.  

For England it is tougher because the tactics seemed to revert to 2021-2023 England as the match went on.  Kicking away possession from the 50 in the hope the other team messes up is not a strategy.  The midfield saw almost no ball, nor did Freeman.  Indefensible.  Some is strategy, but some is on Ford.  It was easy to see Mitchell was frustrated with the anti-Rugby.  

On the other side of the ball, it is hard to know whether the defense was good or the degree to which Wales were struggling with the ball as well.  Wales did have a lot of possession and seemed smarter with the ball, especially in the first half.  Slade clearly relishes coming up fast out of the line, but the team needs to be ready behind him which was about 50/50.  Hard to tell without going back to watch, but my impression was quite a few of the missed tackles were due to the fast blitz defense and the players learning how to, being able to, or simply knowing to, move and cover for each other.  

To me England had no great performances today.  Amongst the good:
Steward does what he does extremely well and showed his toughness in traffic fielding kicks - not 100% but so much better than solid.  Involved and aggressive in attack as well.  He was key.
Earl was very busy on both sides of the ball.  Lots of energy, and power for his try.
Itoje was busy, certainly in the right places at critical times.
Maybe Mitchell too.  

No one seemed to embody the good and bad of England more than Daly.  A fair amount of decent play with some mental clangers, the worst being to try and score in the corner when any average winger would have curled inside and let the support get it over the line.  Either white line fever or oxygen deprivation.  At least he didn't trip anyone today.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 11 Feb 2024, 2:10 am

One difference with the kicking this time around is that England made a lot of ground (and when they didn't - they forced Wales to play deep in their own half) So, broadly speaking, the tactic worked. No Reffell and with worse discipline/ a different referee that kind of field position would have turned into points.

The lack of use of Freeman was criminal, I'll give you that.

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Post by mountain man Sun 11 Feb 2024, 8:11 am

If England want to progress and they need to, Marcus Smith needs to be fit for rest of 6N. Can only assume as such a tight game Borthwick didn't bring on Fin.
Daly did some good stuff in fairness compared to last week but still prone to some bad lapses. Wish we'd seen Feyi-Waboso get a chance, that was a game tailor made for him.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 11 Feb 2024, 8:57 am

I think they need to have a serious conversation of about calling up Barbeary, loving Freeman to 13, praying Lawrence is fit and finding 2 wingers that are certainties at finishing when they're served scraps.


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Post by lostinwales Sun 11 Feb 2024, 11:05 am

Problem is all run and no kick is as useless as all kick and no run, just looks more fun.

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Post by mountain man Sun 11 Feb 2024, 11:07 am

lostinwales wrote:Problem is all run and no kick is as useless as all kick and no run,  just looks more fun.

And likely end up as a loss.

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