A bit of perspective

First topic message reminder :

First of all congratulations to Wales (tardy I know) on the win last weekend.

From an England team point of view it was very encouraging, tight 5 were good, Botha in particular played well, the back row were impressive and easily matched the over-hyped Welsh trio, half backs great and the centres for once were a strength for England. The back 3 were out of the game and although Strettle played well, Ashton and Foden seem clueless at the moment and IMO may benefit from some bench time, at least give Brown a start

Wales are a good side, but should stop congratulating themselves and face some stark realities - please Wales fans take this as constructive.
The "best Welsh Team" since the 70's that have been built up over the last 3 years could only beat a scratch England team that had been together for a couple of weeks and boasting only a handful of caps between them, with the help of a Scottish 4th official. Why is this?

Wales boast a couple of very good players, but internationally speaking that's it. However many really good teams only have perhaps 2 or 3 world class players, mixed with some decent club players and achieve much in the international arena, but not Wales, why? IMO you need to have world class in at least one of the halfback positions preferably both in order to profit from class elsewhere on the field and that is where Wales suffer. Priestland is merely okay and Phillips is woeful - that's the problem. Wales probably have had no one approaching world class since Jiffy at halfback and will squander the talents of North and Warburton until they can find another.

Whereas as England can probably boast 3 or 4 world class players but tellingly in the key positions and that's how a group of young, inexperienced strangers should have beaten Wales last Saturday. On this evidence the future is white - sooner rather than later.

123456789 wrote:England have possibly one "world class" player atm and that's Manu Tuilagi, Farrell is average, Ashton and Youngs are off form.

Wales have Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins, Warburton, Faletau, Phillips, Lydiate, North, Roberts, Davies and Halfpenny. They have a large strength in depth, any team that can't find a place for player as naturally gifted as Biggar, Hook and Byrne

Ireland have O'Connell, O'Brien, Ferris, Heaslip, Sexton, Bowe and Kearney, D'Arcy is very good, O' Driscoll has the creative edge, Earls is good, Murray is good.

Scotland have Ford, Gray, Hamilton, Denton, Rennie and Hogg with Visser to come. Barclay and Beattie, have to come back on form eventually, add to that the players around 20-24 coming through at the pro clubs.

I'm sorry mate the future's not white it's a whitewash!

You are talking about World Class players for England (by my definition I agree we have 1 at best, I'd say probably none atm but that could well change) but then bring up players you (not always correctly!) describe as "good" for the other countries! If by World Class players you mean players who would be likely to have a place in a World 22, then Wales have maybe 4 MAX, a lot better than us but not the monopoly you claim. Ireland have 2-3 if we count BOD and give a little bit of leeway for class vs form (which I am not giving England). Scotland have none. Lots of talent, nobody who would make a world XV or 22. You named some really good young players coming through for them but ignored all of ours. Think before you post

No I mentioned Youngs and Ashton who on their day are world class add Foden to that you have four, and I got carried away with Scotland but to say England have a better future than Wales is ridiculous, Wales have a young team with skill, pace and power and are Britain's best on the other hand you have England who have a lot of new players who aren't that good or young, if all players were on form a world xv, for me, would be:

15. Dagg
14. North
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. Iaone
10. Carter
9. Du Preez
8. Read
7. Pocock
6. Ferris
5. Gray
4. Horwill
3. Mas
2. Du Plessis
1. Poux

3 from New Zealand
2 from Australia
2 from South Africa
2 from France
2 from Wales
1 from Ireland
1 from England
1 from Scotland

8 from the Southern Hemisphere
7 from the Northern Hemisphere

The problem that Scotland and England both share is whilst we're very good in some positions we're woefully average in others.

123456789 wrote:No I mentioned Youngs and Ashton who on their day are world class add Foden to that you have four, and I got carried away with Scotland but to say England have a better future than Wales is ridiculous, Wales have a young team with skill, pace and power and are Britain's best on the other hand you have England who have a lot of new players who aren't that good or young, if all players were on form a world xv, for me, would be:

15. Dagg
14. North
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. Iaone
10. Carter
9. Du Preez
8. Read
7. Pocock
6. Ferris
5. Gray
4. Horwill
3. Mas
2. Du Plessis
1. Poux

3 from New Zealand
2 from Australia
2 from South Africa
2 from France
2 from Wales
1 from Ireland
1 from England
1 from Scotland

8 from the Southern Hemisphere
7 from the Northern Hemisphere

The problem that Scotland and England both share is whilst we're very good in some positions we're woefully average in others.

I apologise, I forgot about Gray, he is World Class

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:
Whereas as England can probably boast 3 or 4 world class players but tellingly in the key positions and that's how a group of young, inexperienced strangers should have beaten Wales last Saturday. On this evidence the future is white - sooner rather than later.

From an England fan which players are these?

Secondly which are these compared to the current Wales side?

By his defenition you have 1, Tuilagi but on form Ben Youngs, Foden and Lawes are quality players.
I'd say Farrell is very average and Ashton's been found out.
I honestly don't get English rugby ATM, you had a relatively young, very good squad which you've replaced with an older average side and a young coach making headway with knowledge of international rugby with an unknown coach who plays boring rugby. For some reason losing in the quarter finals to a very good French side is unacceptable.

123456789 wrote:By his defenition you have 1, Tuilagi but on form Ben Youngs, Foden and Lawes are quality players.
I'd say Farrell is very average and Ashton's been found out.
I honestly don't get English rugby ATM, you had a relatively young, very good squad which you've replaced with an older average side and a young coach making headway with knowledge of international rugby with an unknown coach who plays boring rugby. For some reason losing in the quarter finals to a very good French side is unacceptable.

harsh to call Farrell average yet, give him a chance!

123456789 wrote:By his defenition you have 1, Tuilagi but on form Ben Youngs, Foden and Lawes are quality players.
I'd say Farrell is very average and Ashton's been found out.
I honestly don't get English rugby ATM, you had a relatively young, very good squad which you've replaced with an older average side and a young coach making headway with knowledge of international rugby with an unknown coach who plays boring rugby. For some reason losing in the quarter finals to a very good French side is unacceptable.

It's because we played awfully against them and they were pretty dire too!

I doubt that anyone can really say that Farrell is average to be honest. He is still learning the game at international but the signs are very clear that the boy has talent and will only get better.

123456789 wrote:By his defenition you have 1, Tuilagi but on form Ben Youngs, Foden and Lawes are quality players.
I'd say Farrell is very average and Ashton's been found out.
I honestly don't get English rugby ATM, you had a relatively young, very good squad which you've replaced with an older average side and a young coach making headway with knowledge of international rugby with an unknown coach who plays boring rugby. For some reason losing in the quarter finals to a very good French side is unacceptable.

Agree with a lot of this!

Disagree on Farrell I think that's harsh saying he's average after two impressive seasons for Saracens as such a young guy and a strong first showing at 10.

Completely agree on Ashton however. Out of form just the same as Youngs and time for him to be dropped same as Youngs.

On the coach side of things I've been impressed with Lancaster so far,think he's done a great job in such a short space of time. In terms of Johnno I thought it was a poor decision to appoint him four years ago as he had no experience,problem was we gave him four years gaining the experience we are now looking for in Mallet,O'Sullivan,etc in the top job and then pushed him out when he had that experience. Strange logic in my opinion!

This may be way out there but i would honestly keep SL and bring in EOS as the backs coach. England have a decent set of backs and if coached in the EOS fashion, i would have no doubt that they would be an excellent team.

EOS presided over the best attacking side Ireland have ever had and i believe that he would do wonders with England.

To me, world class is second or debatedly third choice in any given position, World best is the first 15 and these choices HAVE to be over a 12 month period, and if possible strategic International Team combinations have to take precedence over individual STARS, unless the individual is so far ahead of anybody else in his position, Dan Carter and IMO Sergio Parisse.

Parisse far ahead of the rest of his competition? Come on.. he wouldn't even be number 1 IMO.

Parisse is a great player Rory. That said, he stands out more in the Italiand side than what he would do in a top side. He is easily Italy's best player but he would not stand out so much in a better team.

Course he is a great player. But saying he is far ahead of the other 8s is a bit ridiculous.

Yeah thats what i mean Rory. He stands out much clearer in a poor team. Put him in 'say' a French side and he would be adequate.

With France he would struggle to get any game-time with Picamoles and Harinordoquy. I think both are ahead of him.

Also eirebilly did you catch the Munster game? I only got to see the first half, but everytime I see your man Dave O'Callaghan I am impressed.

Yeah, watched the game Rory. How Munster won i will never know. Second best for most of the match.

Dave O'Callaghan, thats a class act right there. Big future for that boy.

eirebilly wrote:Yeah, watched the game Rory. How Munster won i will never know. Second best for most of the match.

Dave O'Callaghan, thats a class act right there. Big future for that boy.

Played in first gear for most of the game. Did an 'Ireland' you might say. And just when poor Dragons thought they had it in the bag...Munster crawled into third. Third was enough. I couldn't believe it either..the change. I thought they were finished; but they really showed their real game in that last quarter.

I'll say it again, there is an awful lot of phoney war stuff going on now in the lead in to the end of the season and the business end of HC.

Its a sign of a great side Fly, did next to nothing and were on the back foot for most of the match but walked it in the end. Dragons fans must be cursing their handling skills.

The first half was hard to watch. Glad Jones got a try though in the second half. That is what, two tries in two starts returning from injury? He looked rusty in the first half (understandably) but that is a pretty amazing achievement. Is DOC as good a prospect as POM? He has had the same sort of impact so far IMO.

Jones is coming back, he will challenge Kearney soon and for many years

Not yet Rory, DOC is on his way but he fades in and out still. When he is in, he does more work than any other player in Ireland

I actually think Jones could be faster if he ....got sprinting lessons from a sprinter...!

He IS fast!!! (before I get attacked) Not saying he isn't fast. But I think he and many other Irish players could be faster still with better technique. Some run in technically - awkward - ways. I seriously think some specialised sprint runners coming in to give some guidance and coaching would work wonders for taking the impetus and energy out of the shoulders and into the thighs.

Jones runs as if there is a puppeteer moving his limbs. I know exactly what you mean Fly.

Jaysus Fly, thats a feican brilliant call. I never thought about that but sure if it could'nt work.

Top marks for that

You are right fly, but in the S + C world it's a tight game of cat and mouse, you don't want to destroy a proffesionals technique as he has become a proffessional for a reason, and also from that point of view agility is as much a key factor as speed, in certain cases more so. Agility will really affect your ball carrying, tackling technique, contact skills, and general all round game where flat out speed can only really aid you over more than 30m, and that happens 1 in 3 games on average for a winger.

The average sprint distance is about 8 metres for a back, therefore acceleration is much more important than flat out speed, as is agility.

I would definately not introduce a sprint coach, as they are very one minded, and can't take into account the other abilities needed as a rugby player, Jones is currently undergoing a S + C programme as I know the head S + C coach, he is a very well respected and maiden member of the UKSCA.

Jones is still young and still getting stronger, his flat out speed may not get much better but his acceleration, agilty and footspeed will!!!

SecretFly wrote:I actually think Jones could be faster if he ....got sprinting lessons from a sprinter...!

He IS fast!!! (before I get attacked) Not saying he isn't fast. But I think he and many other Irish players could be faster still with better technique. Some run in technically - awkward - ways. I seriously think some specialised sprint runners coming in to give some guidance and coaching would work wonders for taking the impetus and energy out of the shoulders and into the thighs.

Excellent call there! I know a lot of players already do this at club level - clubs get sprint coaches in and do sessions on technique in pre season.

A few players also take it on themselves to go away to people such as Olympic sprint coach Margot Wells for sessions in pre season which is great to see

Speaking as an Anglo-Scot,NOT as the Worlds most rabid AllBlack supporter,i agree put things in perspective.NOT whether England or Wales are the better side
historically there is very little in it either way.
We [England] have the widest Player base,and the most Resources of ANY side
World wide.At Club,School,Age Group,A and Sevens we are among the most competive in the world.
In the periods under Geoff Cooke,Jack Rowell,and Sir Clive Woodward we competed with the best.We sometimes beat the best too 12 wins v SH sides
pre 2003 RWC for example.
Under SCW especially money was spent like water,players travelled first class,stayed in the best accomadation etc.
The results under these 3 Manager ?coaches were 74-71% as opposed to Englands overall 53% record.They had the best players and eventually were settled teams.
BUT post 2003,we have had 4 Manager?coaches 2 or maybe 3 had better win /loss stats thanSCW over the point where they were sacked.
It took 7 years to build THE Great England side 2003 and a RWC failure occurred along the way.IF SCW was judged by the Coaches after him,he would have been dumped post 1999 RCW.
No Coach since has had the resources or backing He had,we have had no consistent team selections for 9 years.
We have a new young side with less than 2 00 caps between them,they won two games they could well have lost.Versus Wales they had there best game
so far but came up short.
A New Coach will be picked soon,the criteria it seems is must have Coached a Tier 1 side succesfully.So we are looking at Nick Mallett or Nick Mallet?Kirwan despite Coaching sides to 3RWCs plus a RWC winners medal.
Did`nt even get to the interview stage it seems PR image is more important than being able to do the job.JIm Mallinder or Lancaster would seem ideal to me
men motivators instead of SUITS.
With SQUEAKY on the interviewing board,the RFU promise he has nothing to do with the First Team Squad has been reneged upon.
Nick Mallett Coached the Boks,and latterly Italy,with respect it is easier to Coach a team with a winning culture like the Boks and AllBlacks than lesser sides.
It has been said for example ANY Coach could have good win stats with the AllBlacks player depth.An exaggeration but not by much,Kirwan with an partner like Mallinder or Lancaster could have been the answer.
I am hoping Kirwan will oneday be AllBlack Coach before I die,or at least part of the setup.I respect him that much.
Whoever Coaches England,they need to settle on a Squad[injuries permitting] and stick with it for the next 4 years.I doubt they will win the RWC 2015 but they will give a good account of them selves.

thebluesmancometh wrote:despite the others ridiculing you then dissapearing when you provide evdence

I didn't expect anything less.

It's the endless accusations of "wind up mecrhant" that make me laugh.

I didn't see anyone disappear. I made a point after your evidence also, just in case you didn't catch it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Parisse far ahead of the rest of his competition? Come on.. he wouldn't even be number 1 IMO.

This is an opinion based Forum, you would have a one trick pony and a show off and I'd have Parisse

It seems to me that England have too much to chose from. If they chose around 30 players and largely stuck to them you could have a very good side of:

15. Foden
14. Ashton (on Form)
13. Tuilagi
12. Farrell
11. Monye
10. Cipriani
9. Youngs
8. Haskell
7. Robshaw
6. Croft
5. Lawes
4. Palmer
3. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
1. Cole

123456789 wrote:It seems to me that England have too much to chose from. If they chose around 30 players and largely stuck to them you could have a very good side of:

15. Foden
14. Ashton (on Form)
13. Tuilagi
12. Farrell
11. Monye
10. Cipriani
9. Youngs
8. Haskell
7. Robshaw
6. Croft
5. Lawes
4. Palmer
3. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
1. Cole

I really don't think that is our best side. Cips is starting in it for 1 thing, the back-row doesn't look ideal for another, Monye is not at his Lions form and we have some good options on the wings that are frankly playing better than either him or Ashton, Farrell looks more like a 10 than a 12 to me

wayne wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Parisse far ahead of the rest of his competition? Come on.. he wouldn't even be number 1 IMO.

This is an opinion based Forum, you would have a one trick pony and a show off and I'd have Parisse

So what "one trick pony" and "show off" are you referring to? You are right, it is an opinion based forum. Meaning I can give mine too

123456789

Mate thats one poor international side.

Firstly Foden Ashton and Youngs are playing very poorly at the minute, and part of that is a 1 dimensional Tuilagi at 13.
Monye is a good player but his straight line speed can't make up for his failings elsewhere.
Farell is looking a decent kicking option but has offered little else except 1 chip chase. 12 wouldn't be his position at the minute.
Haskell and Cipriani are getting really beaten up down under and have both looked very poor in the last week.
Robshaw and Hartley just aren't quite up to this level IMO, they both offer a fe decent attributes but struggle to match superior opposition.

So, is it fair to say, on the basis of players (not results) and performances that by the Lions England will be the weakest side in Britain?

On another note, Haskell is going to be beaten up on his first week having played in a lower level for a while and also he's playing a very different style of rugby. I think that more Northern players should go to the Southern hemisphere for one year of the current four year cycle.

123456789 wrote:So, is it fair to say, on the basis of players (not results) and performances that by the Lions England will be the weakest side in Britain?

On another note, Haskell is going to be beaten up on his first week having played in a lower level for a while and also he's playing a very different style of rugby. I think that more Northern players should go to the Southern hemisphere for one year of the current four year cycle.

No, because we can put out a better International side than that even now!

I think if a certain number of players don't regain some form or really step up England my be the least represented nation yes.

You may be right about Haskell, he was in Japan for a while, I'll keep an eye on him to see how he prgresses for you.

I partly agree that maybe NH players would gain from going south, but 1 season is not long enough, I know of a few players who went to SH clubs over a summer, Yapp the Blues prop being one of them, and when he returned he commented that the training was a little medeival, and that he hadn't seen some equipment since he was in high school. Plus he basically returned to the Blues and was given a 12 week programme to get his fitness back up.

I think rugby needs more Gregor Townsends, he played in the super 15(or whatever it was then), the French league, the Celtic league and England, obviously you need some players to be one club players in some positions but a 10 should experience as many different rugby cultures and styles as possible therefore he will be able to alter a game due to weather conditions, situations and who he is playing

Well done bluesman, a factually incorrect post on about all levels. You're either none too bright or anti-English to a point where it just is plain silly. Sadly I think both may be true in your case.
If this scratch England team are that poor, what does it say about a Welsh team that have been together a long time but needed a TMO to get a result?

thebluesmancometh wrote:123456789

Mate thats one poor international side.

Firstly Foden Ashton and Youngs are playing very poorly at the minute, and part of that is a 1 dimensional Tuilagi at 13.
Monye is a good player but his straight line speed can't make up for his failings elsewhere.
Farell is looking a decent kicking option but has offered little else except 1 chip chase. 12 wouldn't be his position at the minute.
Haskell and Cipriani are getting really beaten up down under and have both looked very poor in the last week.
Robshaw and Hartley just aren't quite up to this level IMO, they both offer a fe decent attributes but struggle to match superior opposition.

"a Welsh team that have been together a long time"

That would be Aug. 2011 - I make that about 6 months - Long Time!!!!! Keep trying AWCA3F

Also it was a poor English side but not actually the one we put out- I think we can put out a better side than the one that lost to Wales but I also think that the side that lost to Wales is better than the one that Numbers suggested and AWCA3F defended on every single level

AWCA3F

Why am I being anti English or dull? Because we have differing opinions?

This Wales side has been together for...

a few months. They have 2 debutant player in Cuthbert and Owens, 4 from last years 6 nations, and were missing 4 first teamers from the tight 5.

The two props are the only together combinations, and they had a 3rd choice hooker between them.

Ian Evans had been out of international rugby for 18 months due to injuries, and AWJ had only played one game since his.

Infact the huge combo of the BR have been together for about a year.

Phillips, Roberts and 1/2p the only stalwarts in the backs.

I'm not sure why you think of Wales as this huge unbeatable beast that has played and developed since the last world cup, similar to the England of 2003, but I'm glad you do

Very well said bluesman.

Problem is Morgannwg, every time someone makes a good point it kills the thread!!!

Personally I'd probably have Parrise as my choice in a world XV just ahead of Keiran Read!

For sake of stoking the debate my world XV would be;

1.Jenkins
2.Du Plessis
3.Jones
4.Gray (Horwill close behind both POC and RG)
5.O'Connell
6.Ferris
7.McCaw (just ahead of Pocock and Warburton)
8.Parisse (just ahead of Read)

9.Genia (haven't seen much of Du Preez for a while!)
10.Carter

11.North
12.Roberts
13.O'Driscoll (edges in over the Conrad Smith and Johnathon Davies)
14.O'Connor
15.Dagg (would just as happily have Beale,1/2penny or Kearney however)

How can you have BOD, McCaw or Carter playing if they´re injured and then put Genia in for Du Preez because he hasn´t been the same since he came back from injury? Also Roberts hasn´t been the same since he came back from injury. Your team is closer to a World Injured XV!

I agree Kia.
On the other hand if he didn't have McCaw and Carter it would look like a funny world 15 with only 1 Kiwi, 1 SA and 2 Aus and no French in the team.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:despite the others ridiculing you then dissapearing when you provide evdence

I didn't expect anything less.

It's the endless accusations of "wind up mecrhant" that make me laugh.

Absolutely priceless

Gotta love the irony of this threads title and direction.