A bit of perspective

First topic message reminder :

First of all congratulations to Wales (tardy I know) on the win last weekend.

From an England team point of view it was very encouraging, tight 5 were good, Botha in particular played well, the back row were impressive and easily matched the over-hyped Welsh trio, half backs great and the centres for once were a strength for England. The back 3 were out of the game and although Strettle played well, Ashton and Foden seem clueless at the moment and IMO may benefit from some bench time, at least give Brown a start

Wales are a good side, but should stop congratulating themselves and face some stark realities - please Wales fans take this as constructive.
The "best Welsh Team" since the 70's that have been built up over the last 3 years could only beat a scratch England team that had been together for a couple of weeks and boasting only a handful of caps between them, with the help of a Scottish 4th official. Why is this?

Wales boast a couple of very good players, but internationally speaking that's it. However many really good teams only have perhaps 2 or 3 world class players, mixed with some decent club players and achieve much in the international arena, but not Wales, why? IMO you need to have world class in at least one of the halfback positions preferably both in order to profit from class elsewhere on the field and that is where Wales suffer. Priestland is merely okay and Phillips is woeful - that's the problem. Wales probably have had no one approaching world class since Jiffy at halfback and will squander the talents of North and Warburton until they can find another.

Whereas as England can probably boast 3 or 4 world class players but tellingly in the key positions and that's how a group of young, inexperienced strangers should have beaten Wales last Saturday. On this evidence the future is white - sooner rather than later.

nobbled wrote:Well that's the rest of the home nations rooting for Italy...

yes. Good isn't it.

offload wrote:There have been some balanced posts fromWelsh and English fans since the match then this OP turns up with a bit of perspective?

Try this perspective:
Total possession WALES
Territory WALES
Line breaks WALES
Tackles missed WALES
Defenders beaten WALES
Turnovers won WALES
Scrums won WALES
Ball touched down to score a try WALES
Points scored WALES
Result in the record book WALES
Triple Crown WALES

I hope we always meet an England side full of so many world class players who are just a bit down on their luck! Next time we'll try to keep 15 players on for 80 minutes to even it up a bit more for you.

Don't forget we had Walsh in our pockets

thebluesmancometh wrote:HAHAHAHA!!

Adam Jones is widely recognised as 1 of if not the best tighthead in the world, Gethin Jenkins would start on the opposite side of the lions front row right now, THEY ARE BOTH WORLD CLASS!!!

Bradley Davies will return as the player he was... WORLD CLASS!

Warburton was widely regarded as the closest competition to Duss's WPOY title... WORLD CLASS!

Roberts was man of the Lions tour less than 3 years ago, and is widely regarded as WORLD CLASS, teams don't organise defences around him and change how they play through 12 because he is average!

George North is not world class, he is a phenom who is tipped for superstardom!

1/2p is a wing, who was too good to just play wing, so moved to FB and asked to kick at goal, why beacause he is WORLD CLASS!

And thats me being conservative, I could make cases for 4/5 more.

Cole is becoming a very good prop, but isn't quite there yet, and Corbs has a long way to go!

Crikey I can't think of a team with more world class players in. A minimum of 7 world class players and up to 11 or 12. With that kind of talent I can't see anyone stopping Wales getting the number 1 ranking by the end of the AIs.

nganboy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:HAHAHAHA!!

Adam Jones is widely recognised as 1 of if not the best tighthead in the world, Gethin Jenkins would start on the opposite side of the lions front row right now, THEY ARE BOTH WORLD CLASS!!!

Bradley Davies will return as the player he was... WORLD CLASS!

Warburton was widely regarded as the closest competition to Duss's WPOY title... WORLD CLASS!

Roberts was man of the Lions tour less than 3 years ago, and is widely regarded as WORLD CLASS, teams don't organise defences around him and change how they play through 12 because he is average!

George North is not world class, he is a phenom who is tipped for superstardom!

1/2p is a wing, who was too good to just play wing, so moved to FB and asked to kick at goal, why beacause he is WORLD CLASS!

And thats me being conservative, I could make cases for 4/5 more.

Cole is becoming a very good prop, but isn't quite there yet, and Corbs has a long way to go!

Crikey I can't think of a team with more world class players in. A minimum of 7 world class players and up to 11 or 12. With that kind of talent I can't see anyone stopping Wales getting the number 1 ranking by the end of the AIs.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Don't get me wrong, Wales deserved the win and they were away from home, but surely it shouldn't have been that close. Do you really think the Preistland/Phillips combo are anywhere near world class? John/Edwards or Wilko/Dawson would have really benefited from the likes of North and Warburton wheras now most of their good work is wasted. It's a shame.

RWC 2011
Most points New Zealand 301
Second. Wales. 228
Most tries New Zealand. 40
Second. Wales. 29

Official Review of RWC 2011

Wales lost 3 matches at the RWC 2011 - Official Review

eirebilly wrote:

nganboy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:HAHAHAHA!!

Adam Jones is widely recognised as 1 of if not the best tighthead in the world, Gethin Jenkins would start on the opposite side of the lions front row right now, THEY ARE BOTH WORLD CLASS!!!

Bradley Davies will return as the player he was... WORLD CLASS!

Warburton was widely regarded as the closest competition to Duss's WPOY title... WORLD CLASS!

Roberts was man of the Lions tour less than 3 years ago, and is widely regarded as WORLD CLASS, teams don't organise defences around him and change how they play through 12 because he is average!

George North is not world class, he is a phenom who is tipped for superstardom!

1/2p is a wing, who was too good to just play wing, so moved to FB and asked to kick at goal, why beacause he is WORLD CLASS!

And thats me being conservative, I could make cases for 4/5 more.

Cole is becoming a very good prop, but isn't quite there yet, and Corbs has a long way to go!

Crikey I can't think of a team with more world class players in. A minimum of 7 world class players and up to 11 or 12. With that kind of talent I can't see anyone stopping Wales getting the number 1 ranking by the end of the AIs.

Billy, forget it, this board is populated by a group of Welshmen who don't watch the matches but just want to believe their own hype. It really is pathetic and so far removed from rugby discussions in the real world.

.

I made a contribution to the thread and what happens.......

nothing, this isnt a thread.

THIS IS SPARTA

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Wales lost 3 matches at the RWC 2011 - Official Review

Just trying to show Wales productivity. And your point is..?

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

Cole had Jenkins wrapped up completely and Jones's binding was illegal on Corbs.

Sometimes I have to wonder what people watch in games of rugby.

The point is losing 3 out of the 4 games against front line Rugby nations isn't actually that good.

As for coming second in tries scored and points scored that is hardly surprising given that 4 teams played 2 more games than everybody else and playing against the weakest team in the tournament, against whom Wales scored 12 tries and 81 points, shows that the stats you posted are worthless.

My list of world class players is quite correct, based on what I see, what players who play internationally say, and what many MANY top coaches have said!!!

Now I have never claimed Wales are the greatest blah blah blah, I was reacting to a comment by the idiotic OP that Wales has 1 world class player...

Guys if you can't argue correctly, why do you resort to mocking, taking quotes out of context, then mocking, or just down right ignorance.

Come on some of you are better than that

Geoff

How dare the top 4 teams in the world play an extra game each, oh wait they did because they made it that far, not because the rugby gods over saw them and thought, you know what they deserve an extra game, just because I like them!

World class generally means competing with the best in the world in that position.. or who would make a world 15. With that in mind, how many world class players would you honestly say Wales have?

WALES won on those stats????????????????

Now I hope biltong realises how wrong stats can be!

oops...sorry, these stats:

offload wrote:
Try this perspective:
Total possession WALES
Territory WALES
Line breaks WALES
Tackles missed WALES
Defenders beaten WALES
Turnovers won WALES
Scrums won WALES
Ball touched down to score a try WALES
Points scored WALES
Result in the record book WALES
Triple Crown WALES

A whole page back..but I only saw them today.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Geoff

How dare the top 4 teams in the world play an extra game each, oh wait they did because they made it that far, not because the rugby gods over saw them and thought, you know what they deserve an extra game, just because I like them!

Hang on didn't Wales make the semis.........top 4 teams in the world

SecretFly wrote:oops...sorry, these stats:

offload wrote:
Try this perspective:
Total possession WALES
Territory WALES
Line breaks WALES
Tackles missed WALES
Defenders beaten WALES
Turnovers won WALES
Scrums won WALES
Ball touched down to score a try WALES
Points scored WALES
Result in the record book WALES
Triple Crown WALES

A whole page back..but I only saw them today.

Doesn't that make Wales look a bit rubbish then that they just about won with a runaway try and luckily a disallowed english one? If they had THAT sort of dominance.

Rory

World class in my view is a player who is considered top 3 or so in his position, maybe a 4th or 5th if it's a close one.

As we look at 7's right now, Duss and Warbs are right up there with the best wouldn't you say?
All the players I have mentioned are regarded world class by those in the game, if you don't agree thats up to you, but those player I list are world class, and some have a shot at a world team, not many granted but this isn't a world team thread.

World cup

Why do you laugh? Wales are 5th in the rankings and near months ago finished 4th at the world cup. Why does that not entitle them to be a top 4 world team, because from what I remember despite being beaten 25 times on the bounce in 2004 England were still calling themselves world champs!

The only players with a shout at world class for Wales I would say are both props and Warburton. In my opinion.

A shout at world class???
What does this mean? You are either world class or not, how can you be at world class?

Both props are a shoe in, as is Bradley Davies, Warbs, Roberts, 1/2p and North.

They are all world class, as in if I were picking a lions team now they would all be test starters, 1/2p maybe not, but the top FB's in the world are up North at the minute, Kearney and Foden (especially after watching some of the dross 15's last weekend in week 1 of super rugby)

Rory_Gallagher wrote:World class generally means competing with the best in the world in that position.. or who would make a world 15. With that in mind, how many world class players would you honestly say Wales have?

About 6

thebluesmancometh wrote:A shout at world class???
What does this mean? You are either world class or not, how can you be at world class?

Both props are a shoe in, as is Bradley Davies, Warbs, Roberts, 1/2p and North.

They are all world class, as in if I were picking a lions team now they would all be test starters, 1/2p maybe not, but the top FB's in the world are up North at the minute, Kearney and Foden (especially after watching some of the dross 15's last weekend in week 1 of super rugby)

A shot at being in a world XV. Being up there with the very best. These days the standard is high. Chunky, name the 6 players because I very much doubt it. The only welsh players I would even think about when picking a world XV would be the two props and Warburton. On current form though I feel Davies is making a name for himself. If he continues I feel he could be world class.

Props, Warbs potentially world class I agree with.

Faletau, North and maybe Roberts and Halfpenny could be there someday.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Chunky, name the 6 players because I very much doubt it. .

World class, is being in the top few players in that position on the planet. Therefore:

Jenkins
A Jones
S Warburton
M Phillips
G North
J Roberts

Possible inclusion of Halfpenny as well. Falatau will be there soon.

Rory

World class as I said I'd quantify in the top 3 or so in your position, and on that basis there are 6 or 7 welsh players up there.

In a world team I would have 1 Welsh man... Adam, with the possibility of Jenkins and Warbs pushing for a place, and in fact I'd go as far to say that North would get a good shout (partly due to his rep for a 19 year old)

Phillips, North and Roberts aren't world class.

North could get there but not the other two.

Just to put your comment into perspective for everyone HERSH, name your English world class players!

HERSH wrote:Phillips and Roberts aren't world class.

.

There are not many 12 or 9s better than those above.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

nganboy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:HAHAHAHA!!

Adam Jones is widely recognised as 1 of if not the best tighthead in the world, Gethin Jenkins would start on the opposite side of the lions front row right now, THEY ARE BOTH WORLD CLASS!!!

Bradley Davies will return as the player he was... WORLD CLASS!

Warburton was widely regarded as the closest competition to Duss's WPOY title... WORLD CLASS!

Roberts was man of the Lions tour less than 3 years ago, and is widely regarded as WORLD CLASS, teams don't organise defences around him and change how they play through 12 because he is average!

George North is not world class, he is a phenom who is tipped for superstardom!

1/2p is a wing, who was too good to just play wing, so moved to FB and asked to kick at goal, why beacause he is WORLD CLASS!

And thats me being conservative, I could make cases for 4/5 more.

Cole is becoming a very good prop, but isn't quite there yet, and Corbs has a long way to go!

Crikey I can't think of a team with more world class players in. A minimum of 7 world class players and up to 11 or 12. With that kind of talent I can't see anyone stopping Wales getting the number 1 ranking by the end of the AIs.

Billy, forget it, this board is populated by a group of Welshmen who don't watch the matches but just want to believe their own hype. It really is pathetic and so far removed from rugby discussions in the real world.

nah the Welsh fans are grand, i just though that was a very good comeback by ngan

People who fling around these number really don't watch enough SH rugby.

There are a number of positions where players who don't make the NZ team for instance are better than anyone in the NH.

World Class is a term that is over used!

Phillips and Roberts whilst very good players are not world class, they do not perform consistently enough on the big stage.

Since when have I got to prove to a bitter man which England players are world class?

nAAAH, Phillips and Roberts are world class. Easily.

What is 'World Class' exactly? What do you base it on/or against?

I have always used the criteria that you take the best team in the World - lets call them the All Blacks

If the player in question comes into the team do they not weaken the team in any way and/or do they bring something to the table that the player they are replacing doesn't have.

Very few meet that bench mark.

geoff998rugby wrote:I have always used the criteria that you take the best team in the World - lets call them the All Blacks

If the player in question comes into the team do they not weaken the team in any way and/or do they bring something to the table that the player they are replacing doesn't have.

Very few meet that bench mark.

Phillips does - straight away.

In or around the top 3 in the world eiribility.

Thats how I see it anyway. I have Wales with about 7, Ireland with about 5.

Geoff

I watched most games in round 1 last week, there were some good games but in terms of quality going forward and in defence they were shocking! Some real average players down there (in round 1 anyway)

I do expect them to get better, and by the time the Tri (quad) comes around I'm sure my world 15 will lose 5/6 NH players!

HERSH wrote:
Phillips and Roberts whilst very good players are not world class, they do not perform consistently enough on the big stage.

Whatever about Roberts (not totally convinced by straightline running and muscle and mass) It's a trick yes, and a very good trick...but is it skill or just fitness, strength, muscle and intent? Good player though....and is of course a world standard player as he plays in a world standard team.

Phillips though. It's that rascal's very inconsistency that marks him out as a very dangerous player indeed. Tell me a side that likes to see him as scrum half and I'll tell them they are all liars. You never know what to expect from Phillips...madness or a sublime slice through enemy lines. Great player.

Chunky



You'd have to say Jones and Matthew Rees would too! Plus Luke Charteris, Lydiate, and North and 1/2p. Not that I would call all these player WC, but they definately would help certain phacets of the Kiwi game!

To me a World class player is someone who is respected all over the world and would add something to any team that they were to play in.

BOD, Carter, McCaw, Jenkins are world class.

Phillips and Roberts, No

I don't think BOD, or Mccaw would add anything to the Wales team right now, so they are not World class then, they were but now...?

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think BOD, or Mccaw would add anything to the Wales team right now, so they are not World class then, they were but now...?

It's time to play the music
It's time to light the lights
It's time to meet the Muppets on the Muppet Show tonight.

2 years ago, definately, but BOD has lost too much pace now, and his defence isn't what it was, and Mccaw although still a class act does nothing that Warbs doesn't do (legally)

Sit down HERSH!!!

By my count I'm in double figures over you now son!

Definitely not BOD. Won't he be retired by the time he has recovered from his injury?

BOD is neither in the top few 13s of the world nor would he get in the ABs above the sublime Conrad Smith. Still a useful player but not world class.

thebluesmancometh wrote:2 years ago, definately, but BOD has lost too much pace now, and his defence isn't what it was, and Mccaw although still a class act does nothing that Warbs doesn't do (legally)

Sit down HERSH!!!

By my count I'm in double figures over you now son!

BOD still has it when it counts even if his body is giving up on him plus even if he retires he'll be regarded as worldclass (does everyone understand that, please try!) Warburton doesn't have the big game temperament that McCaw has.

PS I didn't know you could count to double figures!

BOD still has it when it counts? It counted a few weeks ago, a WC semi counted!!!

And Warbs doesn't have big game temperement? Aside from MOTM performance V SA, Ireland etc... and captaining his side to a comfortable 7 point victory at twickers!

Oh dear HERSH you are really going backwards at a rate of knots!

Nothing describes what I'm doing to you better than those on the smiley face list...

Where are those bananas when you need them!

thebluesmancometh wrote:BOD still has it when it counts? It counted a few weeks ago, a WC semi counted!!!

And Warbs doesn't have big game temperement? Aside from MOTM performance V SA, Ireland etc... and captaining his side to a comfortable 7 point victory at twickers!

Oh dear HERSH you are really going backwards at a rate of knots!

Didn't Warburton have a little rush of blood to his head once he realised he was in a BIG game, a bit like your Winkle now!