What is going on in Wales?

by HERSH Wed 29 Feb 2012, 9:46 am

First topic message reminder :

Just when it looks like Wales might have become a dominate force in world rugby why is the WRU allowing its most talented players to play overseas?
One or two key players plying their trade else where can be a benefit to the squad but with the current exodus of players its must be a real worry for the fans, I can only see this hurting Wales chances come 2015.

It’s a tough call for these players as they only have a limited time to earn money playing rugby and the big bucks on offer in France makes it a no brainer when compared to their Region contracts, Gatland must be fuming with the current situation as its completely out of his hands, to be honest it wouldn’t surprise me if he walked away from it all, maybe the RFU could pull off a sneaky bid to tempt him away from the WRU?

Who knows what will happen, but I know one thing Wales’s chances of RWC glory in 2015 is beginning to slip away from them grasp due to individuals personal greed.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:13 pm

The issues do run deep, but player 'exodus' 3 current starting internationals over the age of 29, and a few fringe players has nothing to do with that!!

The reasons there are players leaving Wales is one reason, they a
re all getting on and are looking for a big paydeal in France. How is that different to the English 'exodus'?

There is a massive difference between the regions problems, and the fact a few players want to take the megabucks the French have started paying, the resurgance in French clubs monitary gains and players leaving England and Wales are attributed to one thing.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:14 pm

No its clealry losing Delve that killed Welsh rugby Whistle

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:17 pm

That was one that hurt the most!!!

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 1:17 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:And if they were no longer Bath, they combined with lets say London Irish, moved to Reading and were named the London Irish Greens???

Would you then go and watch the London Irish Greens play or stay and watch a lesser Bath RFC side? Because Pontypridd have a massive following for a premiership side, gate receipts beating most regional gates!

Ponty and Neath are getting decent crowds, and they are watching amateur rugby, and paying near the same as regional games. Both Ponty and Neath are having very high profile arguments with their regions, about players, regional structure, and even naming rights!

How can fans accept the regions when the biggest clubs in the regions won't?

Make sense?

It would never happen in England and even if it did I still support my most local team/region, so in truth what you're saying is that Regionalism in Wales was a poorly thought out idea that will never work, well thanks for agreeing with me.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 05 Mar 2012, 2:02 pm

HERSH wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:And if they were no longer Bath, they combined with lets say London Irish, moved to Reading and were named the London Irish Greens???

Would you then go and watch the London Irish Greens play or stay and watch a lesser Bath RFC side? Because Pontypridd have a massive following for a premiership side, gate receipts beating most regional gates!

Ponty and Neath are getting decent crowds, and they are watching amateur rugby, and paying near the same as regional games. Both Ponty and Neath are having very high profile arguments with their regions, about players, regional structure, and even naming rights!

How can fans accept the regions when the biggest clubs in the regions won't?

Make sense?

It would never happen in England and even if it did I still support my most local team/region, so in truth what you're saying is that Regionalism in Wales was a poorly thought out idea that will never work, well thanks for agreeing with me.

So what your saying Hersh is that it's not the threat of players moving out of Wales which will cause any problems but the way the regions were set up?

Cheers for clarifying that

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 2:15 pm

But When I was playing in the Championship we knew we weren't at the top of the game and therefore didn't expect a large crowd to come and watch us, I not sure how I'd feel if I was a top international rugby player playing for a Region running out to an empty stadium week in week out!

I think I'd want to move too!

by maestegmafia Mon 05 Mar 2012, 2:20 pm

HERSH wrote:But When I was playing in the Championship

It was a cotton cloud day with strawberry string trees and marshmallow pigs flying high in the sky...!

Thanks I needed a good laugh this morning.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 05 Mar 2012, 2:21 pm

That's true for the Ospreys and the Blues as they have 20k+ stadiums (and even the mighty Bath support would look a little small in a 26,000 football stadium). But the Dragons usually have a great atmosphere, except when playing Italian sides, or on Thursday night kick offs, and the Scarlets are doing ok and increasing attendances year on year, and usually have both main stands mostly full and have an average attendance of over 9k in a 13,500/14k stadium. (and that's with little away support)

by gregortree Mon 05 Mar 2012, 2:32 pm

He's English, no Welsh, no English !
BEN MORGAN
“It’s a great opportunity for me and one that I’m looking forward to immensely. I grew up just down the road so Gloucester is my local team and I can’t wait to run out at Kingsholm for the first time.
“Gloucester have some incredible talent in their squad and play a great style of rugby. Bryan Redpath’s told me of his plans for next season and beyond and being part of it is an exciting prospect.”
Morgan was quick to pay tribute, however, to the Scarlets for helping him to get to this point in his career.
“I wouldn’t be where I am today if it weren’t for the Scarlets and I’m incredibly grateful to so many people for the help they’ve given me along the way.

PS: can we also have Glos boy Cuthbert back please ?

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 2:33 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:That's true for the Ospreys and the Blues as they have 20k+ stadiums (and even the mighty Bath support would look a little small in a 26,000 football stadium). But the Dragons usually have a great atmosphere, except when playing Italian sides, or on Thursday night kick offs, and the Scarlets are doing ok and increasing attendances year on year, and usually have both main stands mostly full and have an average attendance of over 9k in a 13,500/14k stadium. (and that's with little away support)

Back to Bath once again!

Bath aren't looking at building a 26000 seater stadium as they have done their research and know they wouldn't fill it every week but they are confident in filling a 18000 stadium every week as the demand is there, the Regions tried to run before they could walk and forgot to involve the fans in their plans and they are going to pay for that mistake.

Its only going to get worse for the regions if they can't keep hold of their star players, The Scarlets aren't doing a bad job and the Dragons have no star players anyway, but the Blues and Osprey could be in real trouble if the exodus continues.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 05 Mar 2012, 3:29 pm

I'm not having a dig Hersh - I'm just point out that the regions aren't that bad and a lot of teams would have trouble to fill a stadium that size.

And as has been pointed out ad nauseum the 'exodus' at this point includes 2 fringe international players - Brew and Day, one 30 year old - Jenkins (note players of that age have always gone for a big pay deal even before shocking exodus), a 28 year old (whose competing with 4 other locks) - Charteris and that's about it really.

I'm not sure but I think Moses led an exodus containing more people...

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 3:44 pm

HERSH you have totally just shifted the goalposts to try to prove your right... like every other argument youve tried to have!!!

I never said the Regions were working effectively, I school'd you on why they weren't working effectively, as opposed to not having the players to attract fans, so in that sense thank you for agreeing with me!!

And thank you for agrreing you would support your local team as opposed to a combined team miles down the road named London Irish Greens, hence why Ponty get big crowds and the same guys refuse to follow the Blues.

Why you think the regions are going to struggle if they lose a player or two each I am really not sure, the players leaving are not superstars, Jenkins and Charteris are the only 2 Wales first teamers to go, and look what happened when Byrne and Hook left, 1/2p and Preistland started to contribute to a possible GS.

The intricacies of Welsh rugby is just too much for you HERSH, if I were you I would give up on it, schooling you is like kissing your sister!

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 4:05 pm

But I would support my local team/region if England went down that path!

A south west team would be great - Bath Exeter Glaws wow what a team!

And I haven't moved the goal posts, if a team can't fill a stadium with their own and the opposing teams star players now how are they going to do it in the future?

I can honestly say a Welsh Region will never win the HC unless things change for the better.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 4:11 pm

No thats not what you claimed.

You claimed that the Welsh regions would just give up if they lost stars as attendances would drop further, then attributed the lack of attendances to playing roster.

Then when you were clearly beaten you decided to change tact.

PS how often have Exeter Bath and Glaws been rivals or enemies due to politics?

Also what would happen if the Bath element fell through and the Exeter Pirates decided on their own region leaving your Bath without one?

Would you be flakey enough to support someone elses region, or stay strong and support Bath RFC?

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 4:24 pm

But the Regions will continue to struggle, thats the main point!

Its a shame that a country who claim rugby as their national sport struggle with attendances week in week out, and its international players want out.

I'd still support Bath Rugby, but I'd also support a South West Region if that was the only way to watch first class rugby as I'm a rugby fan 1st!

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 4:36 pm

Then thats the difference between you and Welsh fans... Passion for your club!

Fans who don't have a region refuse to go to regional games, as a statement, they are too pround to support the local enemy. Politics, you kow the excuse you desregarded earlier!

What international players want out? Jenkins took a paydeal that almost tripled his wage, would you not move to France for a 3x payrise?!

Charteris is benefiting from a decent pop of int form so is cashing in on yet another huge pay offer!

THATS IT!!!

What other Welsh starter has gone? Infact Davies, Jones, and Falatau have just resigned for their clubs despite the huge offers from France, to me that shows more!

You can skew as much as you like but as I said, Welsh rugby is far beyond your comprehension.

I'd stick to asking why the English 'exodus' is happening, and why young international players are leaving despite being promised international rugby, and their places are then filled with mercenaries from the SH?!

Why despite having more clubs in the HC, and with much more money than their celt cousins they struggle to qualify year on year?

See how it's easy to manipulate whatever you want to make it look like a union is on the slide!!!

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:07 pm

It's a tough one and I feel for the disenfranchised Welsh fans.

Because of the salary cap next yea,r players are leaving not just a few older internationals. Casey Laluala will be a big loss for the Blues & has probably been heir best performing back consistently.
Therefore the product ie Regional performances will almost certainly suffer further.
It will be interesting to see what Lewis has in his bag to make 'the rugby World envious'

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:12 pm

I'm not sure how much of a loss Lualua will be as he's on a downward slope and was very poor at the start of the season, though did have a rich vein of form for the past few months.

And Big Trev - which internationals are leaving besides the older ones - the only 1 I can think of is Charteris and he went as much to compete and win things as for the money (and I full expect him to be back at the Dragons within 2/3 seasons)

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:17 pm

Laulala is no real loss, he isn't playing first team rugby due to a Henson and Evans partnership, and Hewitt will be back very soon, not to mention Roberts.

Rhys Thomas has lost his place too. Also Andrews is starting to show what the coaches have been preaching.

Doniel Jones hasn't played for a while so what are the Blues really losing in this 'exodus'.

The biggest probs Blues have is the scrum, and Jenkins isn't a step up from Andrews there.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:19 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'm not sure how much of a loss Lualua will be as he's on a downward slope and was very poor at the start of the season, though did have a rich vein of form for the past few months.

And Big Trev - which internationals are leaving besides the older ones - the only 1 I can think of is Charteris and he went as much to compete and win things as for the money (and I full expect him to be back at the Dragons within 2/3 seasons)

I meant only the older ones are leaving generally but the trick is to hang on to the youngsters.

I would not say that is a given though.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:22 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Laulala is no real loss, he isn't playing first team rugby due to a Henson and Evans partnership, and Hewitt will be back very soon, not to mention Roberts.

Rhys Thomas has lost his place too. Also Andrews is starting to show what the coaches have been preaching.

Doniel Jones hasn't played for a while so what are the Blues really losing in this 'exodus'.

The biggest probs Blues have is the scrum, and Jenkins isn't a step up from Andrews there.

Well Tito seems to think he is your main playmaker.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:28 pm

Tito also thinks he's a maury, oh ye, the guy whos best mates with him!

Whats he gonna say, nah he won't be missed, he's struggling to get in the team good riddance?

It's called proffesionalism, like when he claimed Parks was the best 10 he'd ever played with!

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:29 pm

Now do I believe you or Tito.

I just dunno.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:30 pm

What that Parks is the best FH Tito has ever played with?

Lets set up a poll...

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:41 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Then thats the difference between you and Welsh fans... Passion for your club!

Fans who don't have a region refuse to go to regional games, as a statement, they are too pround to support the local enemy. Politics, you kow the excuse you desregarded earlier!

Passion for your club or sheer unwillingness to move with the times?

And what enemy? they are a region that represents all the clubs in that area, put your pettiness aside and support them BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!

by tecphobe Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:51 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:I think its heading for central contracts at last. The WRU are going to end up contracting the top thirty players rather than tthe regions. This is a good thing as it will end up with more control over the players. The regions need to cut their cloth and become financially viable. We will probably lose a couple more before theseason is out but by this time next year the idea of central contracts will be in place.

On top of that the French model is unsustainable in the long run espescially if the Euro goes pear shaaped. Whilst it is taking our best players at the moment they are also gaining a lot of experience and it will improve them. In the long run with central contracts and a regional system that isnt throwing money away the game in Wales will get stronger.

The regions still need to market themselves better, do deals for families and kids, drop the price of entrance and do school discounts and people will start to come and watch them again. The ospreys crowds are dissapointing not because of the star nakes leaving but because the brand of rugby they play has been dire regardless of results. Improve the product on display and drop the price and crowds will return. Im not worried in the long term but in the short term we may see a few more big names leave. As far as the National team goes its not going to stop the sides development if players are abroad.

. Couldnt agree more with the welsh regions struggling financially. The WRU's hand is as strong as ever Central contracts will help wales go from strength

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 5:55 pm

Ponty and Caridiff were bitter rivals, how do you expect Ponty fans to support the Cardiff Blues?!

Ps I am from Cardiff, and until the move held season tickets year in year out, despite living in Southampton, Dublin and Galway for a few years.

I now have a season ticket to the Dragons and Scarlets.

Also went to both recent Blues games at the CAP.

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:05 pm

"Ponty and Caridiff were bitter rivals, how do you expect Ponty fans to support the Cardiff Blues?!"

By buying a ticket!

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:25 pm

The 6N championship will go a long way to answering your questions about whats happening in Wales...

The complexities of Welsh rugby are beyond you...

Passion for a club is a concept you obviously don't know about...

Having the foresight to force change obviously elludes you...

Just leave it there mate, youv'e made yourself seem silly enough for one night.

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:27 pm

Its time this football tribal mentality was kicked out of Welsh rugby.

If England ever went down this path I'd have no problem standing along side a Glaws fan like HKC to cheer on the South West Region, but then I'm liberal minded and except change is a part of life.

Some fans need to grow up.

by Shifty Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:42 pm

HERSH wrote:Its time this football tribal mentality was kicked out of Welsh rugby.

If England ever went down this path I'd have no problem standing along side a Glaws fan like HKC to cheer on the South West Region, but then I'm liberal minded and except change is a part of life.

Some fans need to grow up.

The village mentality is what Welsh rugby is though. We grow up with it all our lives.
Wales loves rugby during the 6 Nations, but for the rest of the time were concerned about sticking one over on our local neighbours.

That is what Welsh rugby is all about, we should focus on that not try and change it.

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:43 pm

You can still support your club as well as your region.

Its a bit like supporting Wales as well as the British Lions!

Unless you hate the Lions concept too?

by Noble-Surfer Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:45 pm

HERSH wrote:

Its time this football tribal mentality was kicked out of Welsh rugby.

If England ever went down this path I'd have no problem standing along side a Glaws fan like HKC to cheer on the South West Region, but then I'm liberal minded and except change is a part of life.

Some fans need to grow up.

That would be 'accept' that change is a part of life... Whistle

by HERSH Mon 05 Mar 2012, 6:50 pm

But why can't you support a region as well as a club?

by Noble-Surfer Mon 05 Mar 2012, 7:01 pm

I do think that the approach of the regions to regional rugby is starting to improve (at long last).

When the regions were first set up I think the old club mentality was still very much present, and some of the old clubs were probably overlooked when it came to signing club players for the regions. Some of the old club towns were overlooked in the early years of regional rugby (I'm not going to get into which regions/ clubs were guilty or not), but that is starting to change. The regions on the whole are starting to look for talent from outside their local clubs, and into the wider 'region' that they now represent.

Hopefully we will see more and more players trying out for the regions, and improving the competition for squad places in each of the regions, which, in turn, should improve the quality of players at the regions.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 05 Mar 2012, 7:06 pm

I think it's a case of the regions not knowing where to go in the first place Noble, and where they were allowed to go.
I think as a new wave of staff have begun recently they have added a lack of bias to how they scout/train etc...

I also think that there is a new generation of fans growing up with the regions who are not phased by what happened as they don't know, as time goes on it will get better and better, but I definately think it's a case of replacing the old fans with the new.

Don't you think?

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 05 Mar 2012, 10:46 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Tito also thinks he's a maury, oh ye, the guy whos best mates with him!

Whats he gonna say, nah he won't be missed, he's struggling to get in the team good riddance?

It's called proffesionalism, like when he claimed Parks was the best 10 he'd ever played with!

Just got back -

I was talking about Casey & you seem to be saying that your captain Tito talks b***** by quoting him regarding other matters.

In respect of what he said about Casey I tend to side with Tito.

by Noble-Surfer Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:38 pm

thebluesmancometh said:

I think it's a case of the regions not knowing where to go in the first place Noble, and where they were allowed to go.
I think as a new wave of staff have begun recently they have added a lack of bias to how they scout/train etc...

I also think that there is a new generation of fans growing up with the regions who are not phased by what happened as they don't know, as time goes on it will get better and better, but I definately think it's a case of replacing the old fans with the new.

Don't you think?

Absolutely, and I think that this is starting to happen. But, I also think that more needs to be done to get the new generation of fans more involved with supporting their regions... and I guess this goes back to the grass roots rugby discussion...

by thebluesmancometh Tue 06 Mar 2012, 12:37 am

Big trev

Are you saying that Laulala is Blues best because a freind and teammate of him says he's good and will be missed, because as I said he said the same of Parks, it is proffesionalism mate!!

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 06 Mar 2012, 11:31 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'm not sure how much of a loss Lualua will be as he's on a downward slope and was very poor at the start of the season, though did have a rich vein of form for the past few months.

And Big Trev - which internationals are leaving besides the older ones - the only 1 I can think of is Charteris and he went as much to compete and win things as for the money (and I full expect him to be back at the Dragons within 2/3 seasons)

I meant only the older ones are leaving generally but the trick is to hang on to the youngsters.

I would not say that is a given though.

Am sorry if I misunderstand are you saying that "only older players are leaving at the moment"?
Because earlier you said

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Because of the salary cap next year, players are leaving not just a few older internationals.

Am not sure, but if you mean only older/fringe players are leaving then I agree - but if you mean that not just older internationals are leaving then could you point to the proof?

by Shifty Tue 06 Mar 2012, 7:19 pm

HERSH wrote:You can still support your club as well as your region.

Its a bit like supporting Wales as well as the British Lions!

Unless you hate the Lions concept too?

I do, I go to see all 4 regions and some Premiership games. thumbsup

I don't support the Lions though their a waste of time, and they always damage Wales.

by Sponsored content